Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Well it should be clear by now that when I say "without any drawback" its in regards to the potential for avoiding databasing the enemy data. If you say that simple dps tracking in a vacuum without enemy interactions can cause databasing, then your efforts are pointless because people can manually calculate that anyway. My point is that since you cant really stop manual calculations, you might as well make it easiser for the theory crafters by giving that quick feedback.
Assuming the above is addressed- then from there its just about whether it is a skill worthy if being tested in the gameplay. Basically you just don't respect data analysis as a skill because you get bored of it. Thats fine but certain people enjoy it and want that experience included. Neither one is explicitly right or wrong its just a preference. Yes you can say its a "free boost" but that can be said about any system. Every system "boosts" you toward achieving the win condition, thats kinda the point of having it as a conditional requirement, in order gate your victory behind a skill-check. So everything you say can be applied to any system if you don't value the related skill, its just a rhetorical thing to say.
Yes I did watch and understand the video, but in the context of my argument as a whole im not sure why you are saying I "just dont want to play the game". If you read anything up to this point everything I said supports skill-expression in gameplay design. You just don't consider that aspect as "playing the game". That is still a bizzarre thing to say because even if you don't consider it as playing the game, it doesn't remove the other systems that I clearly support that you do consider to be "playing the game" so im not sure why you would be saying that- its simply not true.
I understand what you are trying to say but assuming it doesn't "database the game" then ultimately it just boils down to preference- and no not a preference of making the game more shallow vs making it have more depth like you are about to say lol- because I explained above how that is not the case. So its nothing to be so passionately opposed to.
"If you say that simple dps tracking in a vacuum without enemy interactions can cause databasing, then your efforts are pointless because people can manually calculate that anyway."
Please stop making shit up.
There is no DPS in a vacuum if you do not hand a number to players.
Go ahead and make up a hypothetical game situation where you can manually calculate everything even without handing a number to players, if you wish to prove some point.
Don't give me this useless exposition that means nothing. Solve the problem. Go ahead. Create the hypothetical damage/ resistance/ health representation/ damage representation whatever else system then show how it can be reverse engineered.
See how many wrenches I can throw into it.
LMAO
Why?
One of the few things we know about combat in Ashes is that we will have numerical feedback. Any discussion around not having that is hypothetical.
I mean, I am all for hypothetical discussions (in their own thread), but you dont simply dismiss facts we know about the game and replace them with your own wishes when discussing this actual game in a non-hypothetical manner.
This is what I mean when I say you are simply making up your own truth. This is why you are living proof that Steven's reasoning for not wanting trackers in Ashes is totally false. He claims people will be less toxic without objective data, but you have proven beyond doubt that people no longer care about data, or truth. They will happily substitute opinion for both, and just do what ever they want.
Really dude? Obviously. Nobody is referencing the premise of your dream scenario. I said at the beginning that my thoughts were based on thier current direction and making that as good as possible, said direction will have numbers available to you, hense that statement I made about manual calulations. There is no need for a hypothetical because it will already be the case in Ashes. If anything your scenario is hypothetical.
This is mostly all true.
A combat tracker isnt going to make someone that isnt showing up forntaids on time any better, nor will it automatically mean someone knows the mechanics of an encounter.
However, a combat tracker can track CC and rezzes just fine. It might make your DPS lower, but it still shows up.
So you admit that it would be easy to prevent databasing? And recognize the benefits of not handing numbers to players? Of not making it possible for players to database?
And that the game should be based on grounded mechanics that are basically intuitive anyway rather than arbitrary crap?
I never said that "its completely impossible under any circumstance", so there is nothing to "admit" too. My argument was within the context of the current direction being taken. It would all but impossible to prevent it as things are now.
You already knew the scope of my argument because I made that clear, so im not sure why you started an argument based on your own scope that nobody was talking about. Even if that was "ideal", that is not happening with the current direction- and from that lens, you apply the train of thought that I made clear up to this point. Within this scope- there should be no issue, as I have adressed every concern you brought up, even if it is not "ideal" in your eyes, it should be acceptable based on the current direction of development.
You're making arguments for your own scope so stop acting like you aren't a hypocrite and have a point.
Remove logs, numbers and trackers
no one gives a shit about the "up for change" sharif scope.
you're all trying to tell him what to do and what you want in the game; stop tonguing ass.
Remove logs, numbers, and trackers
Dumb statement. My issue isn't about whose ideas are in line with what they are planning on doing. I am saying that my original post was with the intention of being in line with what the current dev plans are, and therefore the responses should be within that scope, unless you want to have a separate discussion about a different scope.
Pretty simple to change in terms of technicality.
Not so easy to change in terms of retaining player trust.
Between the number of times the games combat has shown numerical feedback, the developer led discussions on it in terms of asking what players want and the outright statement from Steven that the game will have filterable and searchable logs, if Intrepid now decide that they are going to make the game with a total absence of combat feedback for players, it will leave almost all players questioning absolutely everything about the games development.
Even those that are all for this (which seems to only be you) would have to questions Intrepids direction - or Steven's ability to helm the game at all - if they made such a drastic course alteration at this point.
no one is trying to earn or retain your trust
I mean, Steven has said he considers maintaining the communities trust to be of the utmost importance.
He knows one of the main reasons people leave MMO's is because they lose trust in the developer/publisher. He saw first hand how many people would have dropped the game if they went with their first choice of EU publisher - a publisher the EU community has no trust in.
So sure, Intrepid may not be trying to earn or retain *MY* trust, but they absolutely are trying to both earn and retain the trust of the community as a whole.
What happened to you having me on ignore? Could you not find how to do it? I'd be happy to give you directions if you like.
Going on the dps meter thread is such a wierd way of trying to get numbers removed altogether. Make your own thread about that instead- and if it doesn't happen, then there is no reason not to come back on here and tell them your okay with dps meters. Following your premise of dps tracking leading to databasing, then if numbers are a thing players have access to, then databases will happen either way in that scenario- so dps meters should just be allowed at that point.
Why let the trackers have an advantage over the non-trackers at that point? Why not just empower everyone at that point.
No, a lot of people left Archeage due to not trusting Trion.
Exact comments were "great game, shit publisher".
Same with WoW, I know a LOT of people that left WoW over the recent revelations about Blizzards work environment. Players realized that Blizzards staff couldn't trust them, and so neither could players.
One of the reasons both EQ games - as well as EVE - are still alive (even if none of those games are huge) is because the developers are trusted, generally speaking, but the current player base.
My reason for leaving both of the two MMO's I've spent the most amount of time in (10 years and 5 years) I left due to no longer trusting the developer of one, producer of the other.
Just because you want a thing to be true, and state it as if its true, doesnt mean it is true.
People didnt even thought giving a try for Legend of Sword because Gameforge
Throne and Liberty is interesting, could be good, in fact the devs working on it made good work on other MMORPG before but... it is NCsoft, and again, game good or bad, lot of people are defiant just because "NCsoft"... More Fun, it will maybe be published by Amazon... which failed as publisher for NW (failed as dev also) and Lost Ark.
Archeage example from nooani is from the past, but this impact even not released game.
For MMORPG, people spend time in it (or waste if you prefer).
The game could be the best game ever, if the publisher is shit, lie on most thing (but still does a top game) People will consider that at any time, any patch, they could lose all and prefer return to MMORPG with devs they trust. People prefer to spend 1k hours on a character they could be able to spend 1k more on it... simply...
So while the "quality" you defend is only from your point of vue (as i said... and lot people on this forum said) the "trust" is a major factor. This is why the game won't change from its current project to "your" project. Changing project like this would result a big lose of trust, and even for people happy with changes... this would make lot of doubt about long term...
And a good way to be trusted for video game ? Transparency... Easier to give players the data they will try to get, show all is fine, and allow them to do feedback and bugreport about it, than hide it, and work on avoiding people doing it.
Naoki Yoshida clearly said he dislike datamining... but as for parser, he avoid to "really" actively fight it. the only move he did was to ask dataminers to wait to release their mining if it would lead to spoils. And... Dataminers agreed, waiting often 1 week to share this. (People roaming database site would already cleaned the new patch in 2-3 days or at worst during the week end, 5 day after release)
Right now, streamers are looking at leaving Twitch, due to them changing the revenue split.
While its obvious that people losing out on a good chunk of money would leave based on this, people that are not set to lose out now are looking at moving to YouTube, as they have the assumption that eventually Amazon will force Twitch to make even more money, and who knows who they will go after at that point.
Essentially, they are looking at jumping from Twitxh because they no longer trust them.
@Sapiverenus notion that people stick around as long as the product is good - in spite of lack of trust in the people making that product - is just demonstrably false. But then, that is on brand.
How can you handle such cases?
They cheat even when they are sitting face to face.
Definitely MMOs are at disadvantage, as we will not relocate to live close to each-other, and strip while playing.
They are basically related topics. The DPS Meter topic is smaller if anything.
I will push the issue simply because I can.
It is true. No one is trying to earn your trust. Your trust is meaningless. You simply have a certain game you want. If that game doesn't exist here then you will leave. Same with whomever else.
If a restaurant often has roaches in their food, "your trust is ruined". The point is there are roaches in the food though.
Dramatic statements to get one's way are a common manipulation LMAO
I will never want to spend 1k hours on a 'character'.
It has nothing to do with trust though. It's just a waste of time.
This shit isn't a bank.
At least, it shouldn't try to be one. That's not a GAME
My trust is worth $30 a month - to an MMO publisher.
As I said, I (and many others) have left MMO's in the past due to loss of trust in the developer or publisher of that MMO. It is - as far as I can see - the main reason people leave an in development game (aka, any live MMO).
Almost my entire guild left Archeage in a single day because they believed XL when they said the game had solid raid content ready at launch. We killed the end boss of the game, which was a joke, and people realized XL didnt even know what good raid content was.
We knew they had intentions of adding new raid content, but since the bulk of players didnt trust XL to make it good, we left. If that publisher was SoE/Daybreak, or even Blizzard, we would have been happy waiting, knowing that there was some good content coming up. With XL though, we knew it would be more shit.
Basically, if you trust a developer, you will stick it out in a game through times when the game isnt great (if an MMO doesnt have times when it isnt great, the developers are not trying hard enough). The thing is, if you trust the developer, you stick through it. If you dont trust them, you leave.
This has been a staple concept in MMO communities for years - over a decade. You not understanding it or agreeing with it doesnt make it not true, it just highlights your lack of understanding of MMO communities and their interaction with developers.
Go watch some of the early livestreams from 2017 and 2018, Steven talks about how important trust is in the MMO world.
Still confused as to why you made such a big proclamation that you were putting me on ignore, yet clearly dont have me on ignore.
Settings > Preferences > Ignore List.
it is what lot of mmorpg enjoyers (large majority) have in mind. not 10 or 50 hours, but hundreds and hundreds, spread along months, years.
You don't play MMORPG for just few hours and leave, it is not what you are aiming for if you go on MMORPG, but for a long term play.
If you want short term, there are d2/d3 or PoE with their season, or also simply, solo game.
The simple fact you just define it as "waste of time" proves you don't care about the game, and just want your own egoistic desire to bloom...
I personally never felt "wasting my time" when i spent it in a hobby... be it video game, sport, music or w40k
I mean...
Isn't it what you try to do also ?
The difference is you hate video game, while we like them, specifically MMORPG...
What is, for you, the best game ?
What are you doing here on a forum about a hobby you hate ?
2 questions, 0 answers... hard to be honest with yourself maybe ?
No one wants to wait to have fun. You have nothing better to do and enjoy being at the top by simply wasting your time more than others are willing to, but everyone else wants to simply play the game, improve and enjoy some dynamic gameplay.
It's not your game. Get over it.
A 'character' should be useful within hours. Let's say under 5 hours.
With a more realistic Carry system, at least anyone can carry stuff for others and move them from the ground/ body to the Mule. They are 'citizens' of a 'node' and can be useful. The game is basically a territory control civ building game 'intertwined' with single player combat and resource management. Meaning it is a WORLD.
Even in combat a level 5 should have some small impact, especially if ranged.
You're just delusional. You've gotten your answers: not your game. not your game. get over it.
game isn't a person. 200+ hours to be useful is a waste of time. waste of time. dogshit. you want to be at the top to support your near-death ego; you can't compete so you spend your lowest value resource: your own time lmao.
"I never felt like I was wasting my time" you never tried being good at anything either huh? You can waste your time going nowhere or at least improve at something.
I'd rather spend 1k hours getting better at something that has some transference to other things in life. Pretty basic. That's why fast-paced games are popular lmao; your reactions and ability to read what you're seeing improves with transferences to real life. Competitive CoD players can see better, they have faster reaction times; they've gained something.
What the fuck will I gain from an MMO where you can't get better at anything for 1000 hours except mind-numbing patience?
Yeah patience is great. OK. Anyone getting better at anything will learn patience though. And you can get better at something while you're gaining 'patience'. What the hell does a 1000 hour basic MMO have other things don't?
At least Ashes has some hybrid combat, resource management, PvP, and trade routes. Will they lean enough into that? I sure hope so.
So what the fuck is your problem with the basic premises of Ashes of Creation? Why are you on a forum for a game you hate and delusionally think will transform into something stale and uncompetitive?
You're the only delusional person here.
Why are you talking about trust then describe incompetence.
"They aren't competent. They can't design content to be challenging. I do not like this game, I wanted challenging raid content."
If you don't think they will create a game you want to play then you leave that game; that is the simplest way of describing the whole of it.
Unless you think they are appealing to some larger market or something the developers find very appealing to play themself? Then they are perhaps competent; it just isn't a game you want to play.
Talking about Trust and Community is dramatic slogan headline stuff.
No MMO developer has ever had strong top end content out of the gate. It is when a developer says that they think they have strong top end content and you kill it first pull that you lose all trust in them.
Literally every top end player wanting strong content has to decide whether they trust a specific developer to make that or not. We do not have the luxury of looking at our desired content type to decide, because it literally takes about 3 years of content before developers are really able to get an understanding of player limits.
Invidently, this is while players have heavy use of combat trackers. There is no data on how long this process takes ifnplayers do not have access to combat trackers as this has never occurred (and isnt about to).
If a developer says that they want to have strong top end content, but dont consider the game to have it as yet, you dont then go and complain about the poor top end content - if you trust the developer. You give them feedback about the content they have developed in order to help them get better
I really dont understand your lack of comprehension in regards to this. You talk to literally any subscription service provider (where there are many valid options to chose from), every single one will tell you that trust is key.