I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers.
So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken.
So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximize the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open?
You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one?
The reason I maintain my argument in this thread is more for a larger picture kind of thing.
A PvP community can not sustain itself long term on the scale that Ashes needs, so the game needs people that are viable targets in PvP, but are not in the game specifically for PvP.
The above excludes players that prefer PvP as they are in the game for PvP, and it excludes players that are not overly active in regards to combat - crafters and traders and such. I don't know of any other group of MMO players that fit this description other than PvE players.
As such, to me, the games long term viability is directly related to it's PvE community. The better served that community is, the more PvP targets PvP players have, the longer those PvP players will stay in the game.
Combat tracker support is one of those things that a PvE community expects. Rather than asking for support as per other games, I am asking for a built in tracker that Intrepid can control.
I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers.
So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken.
So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximize the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open?
Not exactly but your aren't going to be able to fit hundreds of lines on your screen of combat in one go. Screenshot is fine, if someone wants to share some information that isn't really a issue.
You should be well aware the difference of access of information with sharing if you compare that to giving a text file of all your information... I shouldn't really need to explain that.
I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers.
So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken.
So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximze the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open?
Not exactly but your aren't going to be able to fit hundreds of lines on your screen of combat in one go. Screenshot is fine, if someone wants to share some information that isn't really a issue.
You should be well aware the difference of access of information with sharing if you compare that to giving a text file of all your information... I shouldn't really need to explain that.
There aren't going to be hundreds of lines on the screen if each person's log only shows their own stuff, though.
Do you know how Optical Character Recognition works?
You seem to be arguing that a game can't be figured out in a minute so people need trackers.
You learn and get good at the game by playing it for hours and days and weeks lmao. Everything after that can be rather intuitive.
Even with trackers, games aren't "worked out" for decades.
You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one?
I don't care that others don't want one. My suggestion is specifically designed to cater to those that do not want a tracker.
The reason I maintain my argument in this thread is more for a larger picture kind of thing.
A PvP community can not sustain itself long term on the scale that Ashes needs, so the game needs people that are viable targets in PvP, but are not in the game specifically for PvP.
The above excludes players that prefer PvP as they are in the game for PvP, and it excludes players that are not overly active in regards to combat - crafters and traders and such. I don't know of any other group of MMO players that fit this description other than PvE players.
As such, to me, the games long term viability is directly related to it's PvE community. The better served that community is, the more PvP targets PvP players have, the longer those PvP players will stay in the game.
Combat tracker support is one of those things that a PvE community expects. Rather than asking for support as per other games, I am asking for a built in tracker that Intrepid can control.
A bunch of other games on the market prove you wrong that are focused on PvP.
Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg.
Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers.
So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken.
So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximze the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open?
Not exactly but your aren't going to be able to fit hundreds of lines on your screen of combat in one go. Screenshot is fine, if someone wants to share some information that isn't really a issue.
You should be well aware the difference of access of information with sharing if you compare that to giving a text file of all your information... I shouldn't really need to explain that.
There aren't going to be hundreds of lines on the screen if each person's log only shows their own stuff, though.
Do you know how Optical Character Recognition works?
Does it allow you to change in game logs through game files?
I will say, If combat logs can be copy pasted or saved as a text file then that does not really help to prevent trackers.
So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken.
So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximze the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open?
Not exactly but your aren't going to be able to fit hundreds of lines on your screen of combat in one go. Screenshot is fine, if someone wants to share some information that isn't really a issue.
You should be well aware the difference of access of information with sharing if you compare that to giving a text file of all your information... I shouldn't really need to explain that.
There aren't going to be hundreds of lines on the screen if each person's log only shows their own stuff, though.
Do you know how Optical Character Recognition works?
Does it allow you to change in game logs through game files?
It allows you to read text directly from screenshots.
Some will let you read text directly from videos.
It does not need to interact with the game at any time.
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg.
Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
Exactly what I was thinking. Catering to top end players is not required to make a successful game. There is SO much more to this game than PvE, I would rather they focus on all of those parts being good, instead of a tracker.
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game.
If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
Lot of people wants (and some uses) a tracker for Lost Ark, no tab targetting...
Oh and the theorycraft community is really activ and does a lot of data analysis...
there are statistics, and we are able to know if a hit land or not, there are lifebar, etc etc. Same informations as we will have for ashes of creation.
Why do you think "action" does not allow data analysis ? Lets speak about hollow knight, no number showed, no "tab targetting" and still... people knows all numbers on it. . . Or souls game, people know damages they can do to bosses with each build, each weapon. No tab targetting again...
Do i have to give example of "non tab targetting with data analysis" ?
You can do data analysis on ANY game ... including a mario game... you don't need to collect all coins, just need to know how many you need.
And lets consider you are right... and so tracker are useless for ashes of creation as you say.
Fine... so where is the problem to have one, as guildperk... people using it will spend time on watching useless thing, this is their problem no ? I will spend time roleplaying on ashes, which will makes me win no level, gather no ressources, or what else... So having people have useless timespent on the game is not a problem right ?
The big point of pushing against it is to make botting and scripting less useful, have dynamic content, get a mechanically grounded and deeper foundation, less arbitrary bullshit, and have a game designed that is more interesting and fun than WoW etc.
the Big Point of it is that people that rely on trackers are not fun or engaging players, looking for ways to make the game easier for themself, and those that create and use them tend to create bots & scripts or approve of them.
I don't want any market for them in Ashes of Creation.
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game.
If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question?
Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg.
Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
Exactly what I was thinking. Catering to top end players is not required to make a successful game. There is SO much more to this game than PvE, I would rather they focus on all of those parts being good, instead of a tracker.
This is also fine, except that it would lead back to the 'free for all trackers' problem, given what we know now. If Third Party Trackers are 'actually ok' in the FFXIV style, then it's fine.
But we know the game will have a Combat Log. As long as the game has a log, it has a Parser-Tracker. Intrepid does not need to do anything except if they explicitly don't want anyone to have those.
Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg.
Combat trackers do not only cater to raiders. They cater to anyone that wants to be better.
In terms of their usefulness in regards to content (as opposed to their usefulness in regards to player build, player improvement or game system research), they are only really of use on harder content.
However, I would like to see some group content in Ashes that is hard.
Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
I agree.
The thing is, a combat tracker is an essential tool for good PvE.
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game.
If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question?
It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT.
Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect)
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
Yes.
And if need be, you could use XSplit to record your gameplay, send it to a second computer and have that computer run all other software.
So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.
That doesn't make trackers less useful though.
It doesn't make them more useful either.
It basically just leaves them exactly where they are.
As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some.
I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this.
you just played the game
you know where you are
you just want to avoid the work of improving
because reading logs is easier than struggling in-game
at this point you will either like the PvE or not...why keep this thread alive? (I know you are not the only one, but we could all just stop. lol)
Azherae gave a good answer, and i will just share another way to see it for my personnal case :
The current state is FFXIV state... And here is the result : fflogs.com
No game is able to avoid third party tool... Even mods while it often implies game file modification.
There is a gap between saying "don't do it" and enforce it... Because it is not as simple as saying it.
I hate the fact on ffxiv, people can have their fight data register/tracked and even UPLOADED to allow anyone roaming this site to see those without these people aknowledge it. . .
You walk in the street, anyone is filming you and then upload it on internet. Yay... sure it is far (totally) less harmfull in case of tracker, but this is the same idea... "less harmfull" is not an excuse to say "it is fine" ...
A limited and controlled use of an efficient tracker would avoid people to get tracked down, or have as "common behaviour" guild that says "share logs" (people will find their way to do it... )
Instead the existence of tracker as guild perk will allow people to chose what they want : play with tracker (and guildmate able to see your datas) or not (and so no one would see it). Nooani would join a guild with tracker, azerhae too i think, Mag7spy would go on guild that aim to PvE without it.
Because the real problem is not tracker, but playing with people with the same goal, and same mindset about how to reach the goal. no more no less.
I am roleplayer, and love to minmax all my characters. i offer people who don't care to do this work for them because in the end... It is better to have all character in the group with a similar efficiency, to avoid to have one character (so one player) doing most of the work... Roleplay as "the hero and its 4 lowly friends" is not what most roleplay table are seeking. And it is easier to help people who don't care minmaxing to get a character fitting their idea and still efficient, than asking to minmaxer to do "bad characters". And being also DM, i can totally say that players can do a build as strong as they want... i can still crush them if i want :')
the Big Point of it is that people that rely on trackers are not fun or engaging players, looking for ways to make the game easier for themself, and those that create and use them tend to create bots & scripts or approve of them.
They may not be fun for you to play with, I won't dispute that.
The thing is, you are no fun for them to play with.
Some people like to stop and admire the scenery. That is fine, they are welcome to do that.
Others like to push through content as quickly as they can so they can then get on to other things - be that in game or out of game.
Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg.
Combat trackers do not only cater to raiders. They cater to anyone that wants to be better.
In terms of their usefulness in regards to content (as opposed to their usefulness in regards to player build, player improvement or game system research), they are only really of use on harder content.
However, I would like to see some group content in Ashes that is hard.
Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
I agree.
The thing is, a combat tracker is an essential tool for good PvE.
it is not a essential tool for good PVE. Anything in pve you can do without the tool...It simply gives you a short cut to need to use more tiem to explore and figure things out and more quickly get your answer. Effectively reducing pve difficulty for games int he past or their potential time frame to complete it. To the point older games knowing about trackers created weird game play around it, or trackers because the games were older was the best way to figure out content as certain technically limits made content harder by default.
So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.
That doesn't make trackers less useful though.
It doesn't make them more useful either.
It basically just leaves them exactly where they are.
As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some.
I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this.
you just played the game
you know where you are
you just want to avoid the work of improving
because reading logs is easier than struggling in-game
But - a combat tracker doesn't allow you to avoid the work of improving.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
it is not a essential tool for good PVE. Anything in pve you can do without the tool...It simply gives you a short cut to need to use more tiem to explore and figure things out and more quickly get your answer.
OK, so a combat tracker makes things easier. Let's go with this.
What that means is that developers can then make things harder, as a form of compensation for trackers making things easier.
As such, a game is able to have harder, more complex content with trackers than without. Harder, more complex = better.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
Yeah, someone wanting an old style MMO probably shouldn't bother with a game that literally had the promotional tagline "Make MMO's Great Again". Clearly this is a concept that says old games were shit and we want nothing to do with them.
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game.
If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question?
It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT.
Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect)
There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob.
But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
Yeah, someone wanting an old style MMO probably shouldn't bother with a game that literally had the promotional tagline "Make MMO's Great Again".
Comments
So I believe this would mean that there should also be no way to maximize the chat window while viewing your logs, or you should not be able to take screenshots with the log window open?
A PvP community can not sustain itself long term on the scale that Ashes needs, so the game needs people that are viable targets in PvP, but are not in the game specifically for PvP.
The above excludes players that prefer PvP as they are in the game for PvP, and it excludes players that are not overly active in regards to combat - crafters and traders and such. I don't know of any other group of MMO players that fit this description other than PvE players.
As such, to me, the games long term viability is directly related to it's PvE community. The better served that community is, the more PvP targets PvP players have, the longer those PvP players will stay in the game.
Combat tracker support is one of those things that a PvE community expects. Rather than asking for support as per other games, I am asking for a built in tracker that Intrepid can control.
Not exactly but your aren't going to be able to fit hundreds of lines on your screen of combat in one go. Screenshot is fine, if someone wants to share some information that isn't really a issue.
You should be well aware the difference of access of information with sharing if you compare that to giving a text file of all your information... I shouldn't really need to explain that.
I know you think everyone is spineless enough that you can get your way.
git gud
will really rofl if game is made impossible for trackers or simply too difficult for you to enjoy and trackers do nothing for you
There aren't going to be hundreds of lines on the screen if each person's log only shows their own stuff, though.
Do you know how Optical Character Recognition works?
good enough
pick better points to argue
I have unfortunately not yet encountered a single game in this world that is too difficult for me to enjoy.
I look forward to playing the easy half of any such game as soon as possible.
At that time, I will gladly provide you a plush carpeted floor for you to roll around laughing on.
A bunch of other games on the market prove you wrong that are focused on PvP.
Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg.
Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
Does it allow you to change in game logs through game files?
It allows you to read text directly from screenshots.
Some will let you read text directly from videos.
It does not need to interact with the game at any time.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
Exactly what I was thinking. Catering to top end players is not required to make a successful game. There is SO much more to this game than PvE, I would rather they focus on all of those parts being good, instead of a tracker.
You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game.
If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
The big point of pushing against it is to make botting and scripting less useful, have dynamic content, get a mechanically grounded and deeper foundation, less arbitrary bullshit, and have a game designed that is more interesting and fun than WoW etc.
the Big Point of it is that people that rely on trackers are not fun or engaging players, looking for ways to make the game easier for themself, and those that create and use them tend to create bots & scripts or approve of them.
I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question?
This is also fine, except that it would lead back to the 'free for all trackers' problem, given what we know now. If Third Party Trackers are 'actually ok' in the FFXIV style, then it's fine.
But we know the game will have a Combat Log. As long as the game has a log, it has a Parser-Tracker. Intrepid does not need to do anything except if they explicitly don't want anyone to have those.
Combat trackers do not only cater to raiders. They cater to anyone that wants to be better.
In terms of their usefulness in regards to content (as opposed to their usefulness in regards to player build, player improvement or game system research), they are only really of use on harder content.
However, I would like to see some group content in Ashes that is hard.
I agree.
The thing is, a combat tracker is an essential tool for good PvE.
It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT.
Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect)
Yes.
And if need be, you could use XSplit to record your gameplay, send it to a second computer and have that computer run all other software.
you just played the game
you know where you are
you just want to avoid the work of improving
because reading logs is easier than struggling in-game
Azherae gave a good answer, and i will just share another way to see it for my personnal case :
The current state is FFXIV state... And here is the result : fflogs.com
No game is able to avoid third party tool... Even mods while it often implies game file modification.
There is a gap between saying "don't do it" and enforce it... Because it is not as simple as saying it.
I hate the fact on ffxiv, people can have their fight data register/tracked and even UPLOADED to allow anyone roaming this site to see those without these people aknowledge it. . .
You walk in the street, anyone is filming you and then upload it on internet. Yay... sure it is far (totally) less harmfull in case of tracker, but this is the same idea... "less harmfull" is not an excuse to say "it is fine" ...
A limited and controlled use of an efficient tracker would avoid people to get tracked down, or have as "common behaviour" guild that says "share logs" (people will find their way to do it... )
Instead the existence of tracker as guild perk will allow people to chose what they want : play with tracker (and guildmate able to see your datas) or not (and so no one would see it). Nooani would join a guild with tracker, azerhae too i think, Mag7spy would go on guild that aim to PvE without it.
Because the real problem is not tracker, but playing with people with the same goal, and same mindset about how to reach the goal. no more no less.
I am roleplayer, and love to minmax all my characters. i offer people who don't care to do this work for them because in the end... It is better to have all character in the group with a similar efficiency, to avoid to have one character (so one player) doing most of the work... Roleplay as "the hero and its 4 lowly friends" is not what most roleplay table are seeking. And it is easier to help people who don't care minmaxing to get a character fitting their idea and still efficient, than asking to minmaxer to do "bad characters". And being also DM, i can totally say that players can do a build as strong as they want... i can still crush them if i want :')
The thing is, you are no fun for them to play with.
Some people like to stop and admire the scenery. That is fine, they are welcome to do that.
Others like to push through content as quickly as they can so they can then get on to other things - be that in game or out of game.
These two groups really shouldn't mix.
it is not a essential tool for good PVE. Anything in pve you can do without the tool...It simply gives you a short cut to need to use more tiem to explore and figure things out and more quickly get your answer. Effectively reducing pve difficulty for games int he past or their potential time frame to complete it. To the point older games knowing about trackers created weird game play around it, or trackers because the games were older was the best way to figure out content as certain technically limits made content harder by default.
But - a combat tracker doesn't allow you to avoid the work of improving.
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
OK, so a combat tracker makes things easier. Let's go with this.
What that means is that developers can then make things harder, as a form of compensation for trackers making things easier.
As such, a game is able to have harder, more complex content with trackers than without. Harder, more complex = better.
Yeah, someone wanting an old style MMO probably shouldn't bother with a game that literally had the promotional tagline "Make MMO's Great Again". Clearly this is a concept that says old games were shit and we want nothing to do with them.
LMAO indeed.
There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob.
But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm.
I was going to comment on this about old mmorpg combat, but ill just link this.