Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Only way you would understand fighting game stuff with me is if we actually played a fighting game that i deemed I wanted to play. Which generally is just soul calibur. And you could do all your test stuff and then understand what I mean and how I feel about fighting games as far as skill is concerned and knowledge when you fight me.
Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.
I don't need to write a page on my reasoning that you were already given, overload of irrelevant information is not a reason for trackers.
Ashes is going to be about 50% tab target. Every player will need to select AT LEAST 25% tab target abilities, and up to 75%.
If you are saying that combat trackers are only useful in tab target games, then you are saying they will be less useful, but still very useful in Ashes.
Keep in mind, I am not saying they are only useful in tab target games. They are also useful in action combat games - I'm just responding to this argument of yours here.
I care because you shouldn't be reading information from mobs or players by way of a tracker. You should have to figure that stuff on your own and use your own skill and knowledge, rather than looking for a "tool" to potentially make your discovery of information easier.
I care because what you want is trackers in the game to read other players and that will quickly spiral into something much worst, and grow the amount of toxicity as well when it comes to those kinds of tools with player mindset. As well as use of potential stronger third party software having gained more information from trackers in game.
However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.
Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.
It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.
Kill the mob a few times.
How do you think I figure it out with a tracker?
My suggestion is to literally limit trackers from what will be available to players without Intrepid stepping in.
I am trying to stop the thing you are claiming is much worse - even though I don't believe it is. I am literally trying to stop it to stop people like you whining about it, and you are here whining about me trying to stop it.
I do have to wonder how you're going to feel during beta when I pull out a combat tracker and use it on someone that isn't even grouped with me. At least you get to tell everyone that you had a small part to play in making that a reality.
Oh and the theorycraft community is really activ and does a lot of data analysis...
there are statistics, and we are able to know if a hit land or not, there are lifebar, etc etc. Same informations as we will have for ashes of creation.
Why do you think "action" does not allow data analysis ? Lets speak about hollow knight, no number showed, no "tab targetting" and still... people knows all numbers on it. . . Or souls game, people know damages they can do to bosses with each build, each weapon. No tab targetting again...
Do i have to give example of "non tab targetting with data analysis" ?
You can do data analysis on ANY game ... including a mario game... you don't need to collect all coins, just need to know how many you need.
And lets consider you are right... and so tracker are useless for ashes of creation as you say.
Fine... so where is the problem to have one, as guildperk... people using it will spend time on watching useless thing, this is their problem no ? I will spend time roleplaying on ashes, which will makes me win no level, gather no ressources, or what else... So having people have useless timespent on the game is not a problem right ?
The way someone looks at trackers (if added) to a action game is far different than a tab game. Based on skill ceiling that is much more important than worrying about any tracker.
I'm well aware how ashes is, and if action does more dmg than tab that is what I would expect on a general note based on the skill you need to put in. This based on the gameplay will skew the value of information from the tracker compared to other mmorpgs based on the complexity of the combat... So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...
I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.
The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).
I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong @Mag7spy )
That doesn't make trackers less useful though.
It doesn't make them more useful either.
It basically just leaves them exactly where they are.
As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some.
I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this.
If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information.
No because the moment trackers are in the game it is far worst in formation gained and gives reason to further improve third party trackers and have more features in them. Eventually it would lead to those being better and people trying to argue they allow trackers so it can't be against ToS. Or people simply trying to hide it and find ways around with even more powerful trackers, and I'm sure eventually leading up to potential combat assistance.
Game isn't designed around trackers, and the grow of trackers shouldn't be watered further.
We answered this : we don't want to have to spend hours to make log a readible way thru taking each line into a spreadsheet...
I dont care that the 5 time i hit i did 43, 44, 45, 48 and 88 damage, with a 20% crit rate on this mob...
I care about 1000 or more hits
The first information is inacurate and so not exploitable,
1000 hit begins to be accurate
This is the exact role of a tracker : avoid me to copy the 1000 lines of the same skill in a spreadsheet, and doing it for each skill. for each build i want to test.
That tracker then only works on members of that one guild.
This means that you can only ever track people that are in your guild, and can only ever be tracked by people that are in your guild.
If you are in a guild with someone that misuses a tracker in the way you are concerned about, then you are in a guild with someone that would be a dick anyone. In that case, you either remove that dick from the guild, or you leave the guild - not because of the tracker, but because of the dick.
That would be a large part of it......though I also don't want anyone to have trackers and actually work their ass off to get content done rather then it being made potentially easier even if its only 10-20%.
Mostly though this is more of a stretch I hope the action elements of difficulty make people not care about trackers. That people deem skill over anything else, and bosses are not designed around rage mechanics generally.
If a first party tracker exists for the game, third party trackers will not. You do not have the emotional maturity for me to explain this to you, but I have explained it to a number of people privately.
What?
The problem is, this isn't hours if the log is available as text. And what's the point of a log that isn't available to the player as text? It's not a 'log' then.
Even Windows gives you a Linux Subsystem now. This isn't even about 'does the average player currently know how to use regexes'. If there was a way to stop the average player from running a Log Parser downloaded from somewhere else, it wouldn't matter because all the tools required to do this now come with the same OS we use to play the game on, easier to install sometimes than the game itself.
Intrepid is not going to ban people for using their perl command line, so either they give us no Combat Log access, or anyone who can install this game without help probably can have a Parser style tracker.
You fail to understand the most basic of points....you literarily only care about what you want. You don't think for a second how in game trackers will effect other players but what they think isn't a concern to you. When it comes to that very certain point, or maybe just you in general tbh.
You aren't someone I'd trust, i can only imagine the bs said privately.
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
Combat log is fine, as long as you aren't getting information from other players in that combat log around you.
So a Combat Log that doesn't tell me how much damage my raid members do, or how much damage they take?
The problem with this is that people will demand access to your log before taking you along on content.
Even in EQ2 - where we had free reign on combat trackers for the entire area around us - we would still use an online tracker so that all logs of all members of the raid could be combined in order to get a more accurate reading.
You shouldn't be given other players information through a combat log. It only should be in relation to you and your own combat.
Huge difference between personal combat log, and someone tracking you.
That is like you calling a bush on fire a forest fire.
I am trying to accommodate others. You are the one that wants everyone to conform to your will.
Keep in mind, every single aspect about the suggestion I have made (guild based tracker, only works on members of the guild, only shows data at the end of the encounter) was all based on what others wanted - not what I wanted. The entire suggestion is literally me thinking about others, asking them what issues they have with trackers, and then coming up with ways to mitigate those issues.
I'd do the same for you, the problem is that you can't actually articulate an actual issue.
Personally, I'm not convinced that would solve the issue any better than the current stance of just not allowing them. In all honestly, I probably wouldn't care much if they implemented your idea. But that leads me to ask you a similar question. You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one?
I know you've mentioned PvE difficulty and what not in the past...but the dev have already made up their minds...at this point you will either like the PvE or not...why keep this thread alive? (I know you are not the only one, but we could all just stop. lol)