Yes its a tool meant to make the game "easier" because some people can't handle actually taking time on a game to figure things out. A tool made under certain kinds of combat and the rules that generally follow it in lines with TAB gameplay because the difficulty isn't the combat as far as aiming and tacking is concerned.
Difficulty of tab games more in lines with skill use and builds it lacks the action elements of difficulty. Hence giving more power for trackers and those are the kinds of game it is designed for. More action elements that are added the further you get away from trackers being effective.
Again you don't care about that, it is also why you want people in your raid to be more focused on tab. The more in lines with tab the more effective a tracker will be as it makes things more simply with having to worry about less game play challenges.
Ashes is going to be about 50% tab target. Every player will need to select AT LEAST 25% tab target abilities, and up to 75%.
If you are saying that combat trackers are only useful in tab target games, then you are saying they will be less useful, but still very useful in Ashes.
Keep in mind, I am not saying they are only useful in tab target games. They are also useful in action combat games - I'm just responding to this argument of yours here.
The way someone looks at trackers (if added) to a action game is far different than a tab game. Based on skill ceiling that is much more important than worrying about any tracker.
I'm well aware how ashes is, and if action does more dmg than tab that is what I would expect on a general note based on the skill you need to put in. This based on the gameplay will skew the value of information from the tracker compared to other mmorpgs based on the complexity of the combat... So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.
Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.
No one said this isn't the case.
However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.
Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.
It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
No point was proven all both you can do is assume things on people because you don't care what other people think you you deem you can convince them.
This is not true.
I have no intention at all of trying to convince anyone that doesn't use a tracker that they should use one.
What I am doing - what I have always been doing - is pointing out to people that if they don't have a tracker and I do, they don't really need to concern themselves with it at all. It literally doesn't impact on them at all.
This is one of many aspects that you have failed to explain. If I have a tracker and you do not, why would you care?
I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...
I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.
The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).
I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong @Mag7spy )
So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.
That doesn't make trackers less useful though.
It doesn't make them more useful either.
It basically just leaves them exactly where they are.
As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some.
I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this.
Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.
No one said this isn't the case.
However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.
Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.
It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information.
I care because you shouldn't be reading information from mobs or players by way of a tracker. You should have to figure that stuff on your own and use your own skill and knowledge, rather than looking for a "tool" to potentially make your discovery of information easier.
I care because what you want is trackers in the game to read other players
My suggestion is to literally limit trackers from what will be available to players without Intrepid stepping in.
I am trying to stop the thing you are claiming is much worse - even though I don't believe it is. I am literally trying to stop it to stop people like you whining about it, and you are here whining about me trying to stop it.
I do have to wonder how you're going to feel during beta when I pull out a combat tracker and use it on someone that isn't even grouped with me. At least you get to tell everyone that you had a small part to play in making that a reality.
No because the moment trackers are in the game it is far worst in formation gained and gives reason to further improve third party trackers and have more features in them. Eventually it would lead to those being better and people trying to argue they allow trackers so it can't be against ToS. Or people simply trying to hide it and find ways around with even more powerful trackers, and I'm sure eventually leading up to potential combat assistance.
Game isn't designed around trackers, and the grow of trackers shouldn't be watered further.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
We answered this : we don't want to have to spend hours to make log a readible way thru taking each line into a spreadsheet...
I dont care that the 5 time i hit i did 43, 44, 45, 48 and 88 damage, with a 20% crit rate on this mob...
I care about 1000 or more hits
The first information is inacurate and so not exploitable,
1000 hit begins to be accurate
This is the exact role of a tracker : avoid me to copy the 1000 lines of the same skill in a spreadsheet, and doing it for each skill. for each build i want to test.
I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...
I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.
The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).
I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong Mag7spy )
So, the suggestion I have been making for about 150 of the 170 pages of this thread is for a guild only tracker. This means that when you are in a guild, if that guild opts to take a tracker as a perk (in place of other options), then you have access to said tracker.
That tracker then only works on members of that one guild.
This means that you can only ever track people that are in your guild, and can only ever be tracked by people that are in your guild.
If you are in a guild with someone that misuses a tracker in the way you are concerned about, then you are in a guild with someone that would be a dick anyone. In that case, you either remove that dick from the guild, or you leave the guild - not because of the tracker, but because of the dick.
No point was proven all both you can do is assume things on people because you don't care what other people think you you deem you can convince them.
This is not true.
I have no intention at all of trying to convince anyone that doesn't use a tracker that they should use one.
What I am doing - what I have always been doing - is pointing out to people that if they don't have a tracker and I do, they don't really need to concern themselves with it at all. It literally doesn't impact on them at all.
This is one of many aspects that you have failed to explain. If I have a tracker and you do not, why would you care?
I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...
I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.
The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).
I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong @Mag7spy )
That would be a large part of it......though I also don't want anyone to have trackers and actually work their ass off to get content done rather then it being made potentially easier even if its only 10-20%.
Mostly though this is more of a stretch I hope the action elements of difficulty make people not care about trackers. That people deem skill over anything else, and bosses are not designed around rage mechanics generally.
No because the moment trackers are in the game it is far worst in formation gained and gives reason to further improve third party trackers and have more features in them
If a first party tracker exists for the game, third party trackers will not. You do not have the emotional maturity for me to explain this to you, but I have explained it to a number of people privately.
Like if someone is like we have a gap here where we can heal because this doesn't happen as often from tracker knowledge. But the boss is like "And?" and it doesn't matter if they know but aren't skilled enough to do the content from the action element side of combat.
Like if someone is like we have a gap here where we can heal because this doesn't happen as often from tracker knowledge. But the boss is like "And?" and it doesn't matter if they know but aren't skilled enough to do the content from the action element side of combat.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
We answered this : we don't want to have to spend hours to make log a readible way thru taking each line into a spreadsheet...
I dont care that the 5 time i hit i did 43, 44, 45, 48 and 88 damage, with a 20% crit rate on this mob...
I care about 1000 or more hits
The first information is inacurate and so not exploitable,
1000 hit begins to be accurate
The problem is, this isn't hours if the log is available as text. And what's the point of a log that isn't available to the player as text? It's not a 'log' then.
Even Windows gives you a Linux Subsystem now. This isn't even about 'does the average player currently know how to use regexes'. If there was a way to stop the average player from running a Log Parser downloaded from somewhere else, it wouldn't matter because all the tools required to do this now come with the same OS we use to play the game on, easier to install sometimes than the game itself.
Intrepid is not going to ban people for using their perl command line, so either they give us no Combat Log access, or anyone who can install this game without help probably can have a Parser style tracker.
I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...
I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.
The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).
I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong Mag7spy )
So, the suggestion I have been making for about 150 of the 170 pages of this thread is for a guild only tracker. This means that when you are in a guild, if that guild opts to take a tracker as a perk (in place of other options), then you have access to said tracker.
That tracker then only works on members of that one guild.
This means that you can only ever track people that are in your guild, and can only ever be tracked by people that are in your guild.
If you are in a guild with someone that misuses a tracker in the way you are concerned about, then you are in a guild with someone that would be a dick anyone. In that case, you either remove that dick from the guild, or you leave the guild - not because of the tracker, but because of the dick.
You fail to understand the most basic of points....you literarily only care about what you want. You don't think for a second how in game trackers will effect other players but what they think isn't a concern to you. When it comes to that very certain point, or maybe just you in general tbh.
No because the moment trackers are in the game it is far worst in formation gained and gives reason to further improve third party trackers and have more features in them
If a first party tracker exists for the game, third party trackers will not. You do not have the emotional maturity for me to explain this to you, but I have explained it to a number of people privately.
You aren't someone I'd trust, i can only imagine the bs said privately.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.
No one said this isn't the case.
However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.
Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.
It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information.
Combat log is fine, as long as you aren't getting information from other players in that combat log around you.
Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.
No one said this isn't the case.
However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.
Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.
It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information.
Combat log is fine, as long as you aren't getting information from other players in that combat log around you.
So a Combat Log that doesn't tell me how much damage my raid members do, or how much damage they take?
Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.
No one said this isn't the case.
However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.
Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.
It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information.
Combat log is fine, as long as you aren't getting information from other players in that combat log around you.
The problem with this is that people will demand access to your log before taking you along on content.
Even in EQ2 - where we had free reign on combat trackers for the entire area around us - we would still use an online tracker so that all logs of all members of the raid could be combined in order to get a more accurate reading.
Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.
No one said this isn't the case.
However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.
Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.
It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information.
Combat log is fine, as long as you aren't getting information from other players in that combat log around you.
So a Combat Log that doesn't tell me how much damage my raid members do, or how much damage they take?
You shouldn't be given other players information through a combat log. It only should be in relation to you and your own combat.
You fail to understand the most basic of points....you literarily only care about what you want. You don't think for a second how in game trackers will effect other players but what they think isn't a concern to you. When it comes to that very certain point, or maybe just you in general tbh.
You've got this backwards.
I am trying to accommodate others. You are the one that wants everyone to conform to your will.
Keep in mind, every single aspect about the suggestion I have made (guild based tracker, only works on members of the guild, only shows data at the end of the encounter) was all based on what others wanted - not what I wanted. The entire suggestion is literally me thinking about others, asking them what issues they have with trackers, and then coming up with ways to mitigate those issues.
I'd do the same for you, the problem is that you can't actually articulate an actual issue.
I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...
I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.
The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).
I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong Mag7spy )
So, the suggestion I have been making for about 150 of the 170 pages of this thread is for a guild only tracker. This means that when you are in a guild, if that guild opts to take a tracker as a perk (in place of other options), then you have access to said tracker.
That tracker then only works on members of that one guild.
This means that you can only ever track people that are in your guild, and can only ever be tracked by people that are in your guild.
If you are in a guild with someone that misuses a tracker in the way you are concerned about, then you are in a guild with someone that would be a dick anyone. In that case, you either remove that dick from the guild, or you leave the guild - not because of the tracker, but because of the dick.
Personally, I'm not convinced that would solve the issue any better than the current stance of just not allowing them. In all honestly, I probably wouldn't care much if they implemented your idea. But that leads me to ask you a similar question. You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one?
I know you've mentioned PvE difficulty and what not in the past...but the dev have already made up their minds...at this point you will either like the PvE or not...why keep this thread alive? (I know you are not the only one, but we could all just stop. lol)
Looking at training for that information and fighting someone are vastly two different stories. You could know all the information and if I control the fight it won't amount to much.
No one said this isn't the case.
However, knowing that information is a step in the process to getting better.
Having objective data doesn't automatically make you better. This does seem to be a thing you think is the case in MMO's - the number of times you've said that people don't want to spend the time to get better. It is as if you think looking at a combat tracker will automatically make you better.
It doesn't, it still takes a lot of actual gameplay to put what you work out in a combat tracker to good use.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information.
Combat log is fine, as long as you aren't getting information from other players in that combat log around you.
The problem with this is that people will demand access to your log before taking you along on content.
Even in EQ2 - where we had free reign on combat trackers for the entire area around us - we would still use an online tracker so that all logs of all members of the raid could be combined in order to get a more accurate reading.
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. That is somethin simply on your screen for you to view. So them demanding to see your combat log on stream would just be weird.
Sure there are the elitist types out there that think they are special that will do some weird stuff. But it isn't going to be the normal. Should that point being brought up as it wont be normal.
You simply can only look through things from your perspective, and why you don't' understand how things will really be. You only have your own experience demanding or expecting to see things.
This is why i keep telling you, you don't care what people think, only what you want. You might not realize it but you also that kind of toxic mentality but your core group think the same so it won't be a issue. Though if you were to paly a new popular game issues might start to pop up in people thinking you and your group run things a bit weird.
... If personanl combat log exist, you understand that all toxic behaviour you complain will exist ?
Huge difference between personal combat log, and someone tracking you.
That is like you calling a bush on fire a forest fire.
The point is relative to toxicity.
You have basically made two points. You don't want Trackers to exist so that players can't blaze through content. But if a Combat Log exists and a group chooses to combine their logs, a Tracker exists.
You don't want people tracking other people. That is avoidable if somehow logs are very carefully set, but then people might just refuse to let others join their guilds because of not providing logs. This would be fine and your goal would be achieved IF the first thing wasn't true.
If there is a Log and people can share their logs, you cannot prevent the effects of a Tracker that you're concerned about.
EDIT: At best, you can sorta-prevent the effects that @MrPockets is concerned about, but at that point, Noaani's suggestion is very slightly better.
Because parsing logs is not hard. The only reason people don't know that it isn't hard is because Trackers are basically a one click solution whereas Parsers require you to type two lines and open Excel (opening Excel might be optional)
I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...
I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.
The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).
I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong Mag7spy )
So, the suggestion I have been making for about 150 of the 170 pages of this thread is for a guild only tracker. This means that when you are in a guild, if that guild opts to take a tracker as a perk (in place of other options), then you have access to said tracker.
That tracker then only works on members of that one guild.
This means that you can only ever track people that are in your guild, and can only ever be tracked by people that are in your guild.
If you are in a guild with someone that misuses a tracker in the way you are concerned about, then you are in a guild with someone that would be a dick anyone. In that case, you either remove that dick from the guild, or you leave the guild - not because of the tracker, but because of the dick.
Personally, I'm not convinced that would solve the issue any better than the current stance of just not allowing them. In all honestly, I probably wouldn't care much if they implemented your idea. But that leads me to ask you a similar question. You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one?
I know you've mentioned PvE difficulty and what not in the past...but the dev have already made up their minds...at this point you will either like the PvE or not...why keep this thread alive? (I know you are not the only one, but we could all just stop. lol)
I'm fine with thread being alive here and there and if people re for tracker to give their input and unique thought on it. I'm not going to tell them they are wrong everyone is fair to believe what they want and the devs can read and think on it.
Though you have a small group that will respond to anyone and try to convince them and then be like DEvs everyone agrees with me so we need trackers . Even if that is a half truth with them not wanting it but being told weird things like they wont be able to do content without trackers and such.
... If personanl combat log exist, you understand that all toxic behaviour you complain will exist ?
Huge difference between personal combat log, and someone tracking you.
That is like you calling a bush on fire a forest fire.
The point is relative to toxicity.
You have basically made two points. You don't want Trackers to exist so that players can't blaze through content. But if a Combat Log exists and a group chooses to combine their logs, a Tracker exists.
You don't want people tracking other people. That is avoidable if somehow logs are very carefully set, but then people might just refuse to let others join their guilds because of not providing logs. This would be fine and your goal would be achieved IF the first thing wasn't true.
If there is a Log and people can share their logs, you cannot prevent the effects of a Tracker that you're concerned about.
EDIT: At best, you can sorta-prevent the effects that @MrPockets is concerned about, but at that point, Noaani's suggestion is very slightly better.
Because parsing logs is not hard. The only reason people don't know that it isn't hard is because Trackers are basically a one click solution whereas Parsers require you to type two lines and open Excel (opening Excel might be optional)
I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...
I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.
The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).
I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong Mag7spy )
So, the suggestion I have been making for about 150 of the 170 pages of this thread is for a guild only tracker. This means that when you are in a guild, if that guild opts to take a tracker as a perk (in place of other options), then you have access to said tracker.
That tracker then only works on members of that one guild.
This means that you can only ever track people that are in your guild, and can only ever be tracked by people that are in your guild.
If you are in a guild with someone that misuses a tracker in the way you are concerned about, then you are in a guild with someone that would be a dick anyone. In that case, you either remove that dick from the guild, or you leave the guild - not because of the tracker, but because of the dick.
Personally, I'm not convinced that would solve the issue any better than the current stance of just not allowing them. In all honestly, I probably wouldn't care much if they implemented your idea. But that leads me to ask you a similar question. You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one?
I know you've mentioned PvE difficulty and what not in the past...but the dev have already made up their minds...at this point you will either like the PvE or not...why keep this thread alive? (I know you are not the only one, but we could all just stop. lol)
The main reason this thread goes on is because the people on the 'Trackers are Ok' side are often forced to clarify to others that Intrepid is not offering any real solution to ANY of the problems those people perceive to exist.
So you can consider it Altruism in some, maybe all cases. People say 'I don't want trackers because X so I'm glad they won't be allowed', and someone explains 'the current situation won't prevent X'. It is true that if we were all actually selfish the response would be 'lol look at these people with their lack of knowledge thinking that something will actually stop this' and SILENCE.
In fact, I consider the lack of input from other Tracker-advocates to be a sign that's mostly what's happening. If you talk Noaani out of 'bothering to help solve the problem' then the result will be 'the problem exists, Noaani is fine, everyone with the alternate wish is not'.
Comments
The way someone looks at trackers (if added) to a action game is far different than a tab game. Based on skill ceiling that is much more important than worrying about any tracker.
I'm well aware how ashes is, and if action does more dmg than tab that is what I would expect on a general note based on the skill you need to put in. This based on the gameplay will skew the value of information from the tracker compared to other mmorpgs based on the complexity of the combat... So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.
You already get information from the game, you have a combat log. You don't need a tracker.
I feel like I've explained this multiple times, but it is never acknowledged...
I don't think most of us care (except sap I guess) if you have a tracker or not...but we do care when the average players do. More often than not, the average player will abuse/misuse a tool like this, leading to more people not enjoying their time with the game.
The main argument I can see to not want the top end players using trackers...is that they will influence the average players to think that this tool is required to play the game in general (not just top end fights).
I think this is what Mag is talking about when he claims you can't see the other perspectives. (correct me if I am wrong @Mag7spy )
That doesn't make trackers less useful though.
It doesn't make them more useful either.
It basically just leaves them exactly where they are.
As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some.
I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this.
If you do not want people to have a Tracker you cannot give them a Combat Log that gives them information.
No because the moment trackers are in the game it is far worst in formation gained and gives reason to further improve third party trackers and have more features in them. Eventually it would lead to those being better and people trying to argue they allow trackers so it can't be against ToS. Or people simply trying to hide it and find ways around with even more powerful trackers, and I'm sure eventually leading up to potential combat assistance.
Game isn't designed around trackers, and the grow of trackers shouldn't be watered further.
We answered this : we don't want to have to spend hours to make log a readible way thru taking each line into a spreadsheet...
I dont care that the 5 time i hit i did 43, 44, 45, 48 and 88 damage, with a 20% crit rate on this mob...
I care about 1000 or more hits
The first information is inacurate and so not exploitable,
1000 hit begins to be accurate
This is the exact role of a tracker : avoid me to copy the 1000 lines of the same skill in a spreadsheet, and doing it for each skill. for each build i want to test.
That tracker then only works on members of that one guild.
This means that you can only ever track people that are in your guild, and can only ever be tracked by people that are in your guild.
If you are in a guild with someone that misuses a tracker in the way you are concerned about, then you are in a guild with someone that would be a dick anyone. In that case, you either remove that dick from the guild, or you leave the guild - not because of the tracker, but because of the dick.
That would be a large part of it......though I also don't want anyone to have trackers and actually work their ass off to get content done rather then it being made potentially easier even if its only 10-20%.
Mostly though this is more of a stretch I hope the action elements of difficulty make people not care about trackers. That people deem skill over anything else, and bosses are not designed around rage mechanics generally.
If a first party tracker exists for the game, third party trackers will not. You do not have the emotional maturity for me to explain this to you, but I have explained it to a number of people privately.
What?
The problem is, this isn't hours if the log is available as text. And what's the point of a log that isn't available to the player as text? It's not a 'log' then.
Even Windows gives you a Linux Subsystem now. This isn't even about 'does the average player currently know how to use regexes'. If there was a way to stop the average player from running a Log Parser downloaded from somewhere else, it wouldn't matter because all the tools required to do this now come with the same OS we use to play the game on, easier to install sometimes than the game itself.
Intrepid is not going to ban people for using their perl command line, so either they give us no Combat Log access, or anyone who can install this game without help probably can have a Parser style tracker.
You fail to understand the most basic of points....you literarily only care about what you want. You don't think for a second how in game trackers will effect other players but what they think isn't a concern to you. When it comes to that very certain point, or maybe just you in general tbh.
You aren't someone I'd trust, i can only imagine the bs said privately.
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
Combat log is fine, as long as you aren't getting information from other players in that combat log around you.
So a Combat Log that doesn't tell me how much damage my raid members do, or how much damage they take?
The problem with this is that people will demand access to your log before taking you along on content.
Even in EQ2 - where we had free reign on combat trackers for the entire area around us - we would still use an online tracker so that all logs of all members of the raid could be combined in order to get a more accurate reading.
You shouldn't be given other players information through a combat log. It only should be in relation to you and your own combat.
Huge difference between personal combat log, and someone tracking you.
That is like you calling a bush on fire a forest fire.
I am trying to accommodate others. You are the one that wants everyone to conform to your will.
Keep in mind, every single aspect about the suggestion I have made (guild based tracker, only works on members of the guild, only shows data at the end of the encounter) was all based on what others wanted - not what I wanted. The entire suggestion is literally me thinking about others, asking them what issues they have with trackers, and then coming up with ways to mitigate those issues.
I'd do the same for you, the problem is that you can't actually articulate an actual issue.
Personally, I'm not convinced that would solve the issue any better than the current stance of just not allowing them. In all honestly, I probably wouldn't care much if they implemented your idea. But that leads me to ask you a similar question. You've already presented your idea, the devs already have an official opinion on the matter...If you are going to have a tracker regardless, why do you care that other don't want one?
I know you've mentioned PvE difficulty and what not in the past...but the dev have already made up their minds...at this point you will either like the PvE or not...why keep this thread alive? (I know you are not the only one, but we could all just stop. lol)
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format. That is somethin simply on your screen for you to view. So them demanding to see your combat log on stream would just be weird.
Sure there are the elitist types out there that think they are special that will do some weird stuff. But it isn't going to be the normal. Should that point being brought up as it wont be normal.
You simply can only look through things from your perspective, and why you don't' understand how things will really be. You only have your own experience demanding or expecting to see things.
This is why i keep telling you, you don't care what people think, only what you want. You might not realize it but you also that kind of toxic mentality but your core group think the same so it won't be a issue. Though if you were to paly a new popular game issues might start to pop up in people thinking you and your group run things a bit weird.
The point is relative to toxicity.
You have basically made two points. You don't want Trackers to exist so that players can't blaze through content. But if a Combat Log exists and a group chooses to combine their logs, a Tracker exists.
You don't want people tracking other people. That is avoidable if somehow logs are very carefully set, but then people might just refuse to let others join their guilds because of not providing logs. This would be fine and your goal would be achieved IF the first thing wasn't true.
If there is a Log and people can share their logs, you cannot prevent the effects of a Tracker that you're concerned about.
EDIT: At best, you can sorta-prevent the effects that @MrPockets is concerned about, but at that point, Noaani's suggestion is very slightly better.
Because parsing logs is not hard. The only reason people don't know that it isn't hard is because Trackers are basically a one click solution whereas Parsers require you to type two lines and open Excel (opening Excel might be optional)
I'm fine with thread being alive here and there and if people re for tracker to give their input and unique thought on it. I'm not going to tell them they are wrong everyone is fair to believe what they want and the devs can read and think on it.
Though you have a small group that will respond to anyone and try to convince them and then be like DEvs everyone agrees with me so we need trackers
Commented above, logs should not be copy pasted.
So again logs should not be copy pasted or viewed all at once. It needs to be akin to scroll through chats to view your damage done or taken.
The main reason this thread goes on is because the people on the 'Trackers are Ok' side are often forced to clarify to others that Intrepid is not offering any real solution to ANY of the problems those people perceive to exist.
So you can consider it Altruism in some, maybe all cases. People say 'I don't want trackers because X so I'm glad they won't be allowed', and someone explains 'the current situation won't prevent X'. It is true that if we were all actually selfish the response would be 'lol look at these people with their lack of knowledge thinking that something will actually stop this' and SILENCE.
In fact, I consider the lack of input from other Tracker-advocates to be a sign that's mostly what's happening. If you talk Noaani out of 'bothering to help solve the problem' then the result will be 'the problem exists, Noaani is fine, everyone with the alternate wish is not'.