Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
suffer the truth
This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports.
A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'.
It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted.
But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video.
Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results.
Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known.
Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already?
Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did?
Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else.
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
suffer the truth
This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports.
A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'.
It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted.
But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video.
Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results.
Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known.
Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already?
Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did?
Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else.
Ok, would we then be on to 'proving that my methods of training' (which are all explicitly built around training faster and better rather than harder) were not the real reason? I'm working out 'which player I would need to contact if I needed to make this point for some reason'.
Of course I should just ignore you, and in fact I'm not even claiming that, but I have that bad habit of continually checking to see if people are discussing things in good faith or not.
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
suffer the truth
This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports.
A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'.
It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted.
But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video.
Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results.
Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known.
Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already?
Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did?
Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else.
Ok, would we then be on to 'proving that my methods of training' (which are all explicitly built around training faster and better rather than harder) were not the real reason? I'm working out 'which player I would need to contact if I needed to make this point for some reason'.
Of course I should just ignore you, and in fact I'm not even claiming that, but I have that bad habit of continually checking to see if people are discussing things in good faith or not.
I have made my position clear.
Whoever you contact and what they say means nothing to me.
Whatever use your training has is marginal.
0
Options
HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's like watching one of those slapstick comedies where the individuals beat the ever-living tar out of each other, end up sprawled out on the ground exhausted and in pain, and yet you know they'll be back to do it again the next day.
I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was only allowed to continue so Intrepid had something to read while they're on lunch. Or relieving themselves of yesterday's lunch.
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
suffer the truth
This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports.
A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'.
It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted.
But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video.
Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results.
Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known.
Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already?
Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did?
Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else.
Ok, would we then be on to 'proving that my methods of training' (which are all explicitly built around training faster and better rather than harder) were not the real reason? I'm working out 'which player I would need to contact if I needed to make this point for some reason'.
Of course I should just ignore you, and in fact I'm not even claiming that, but I have that bad habit of continually checking to see if people are discussing things in good faith or not.
I have made my position clear.
Whoever you contact and what they say means nothing to me.
Whatever use your training has is marginal.
Perfect, thank you.
You have indicated that you are, by choice, IMMUNE to the truth of how Fighting Games work, and it would not be too weird to extend this to you being IMMUNE to the truth of how Trackers work.
However, @Mag7spy, I do not know for certain that you are also taking the path of 'Immunity to Facts' on this matter, so you can clarify it at your discretion too.
Sapi, you said yourself you don't play a lot video game, so you have low experience (and... it is fine, really, i won't blame you !) but you try to speak about a reality that is only yours, and... that all i saw in 19 years of online gaming prove to be false... Most of your claims is how i thought think 15 years ago in fact... And as time went, i saw this was not as simple as this... the more i played games, and the more i went on my studies, the more i saw such thought were false...
You are not even able to gave specific example of video game to prove your ideas are good.
You are not even able to give one game you know that manage to avoid people to do data analysis to prove it possible. You just say "it is possible/good"
It's like watching one of those slapstick comedies where the individuals beat the ever-living tar out of each other, end up sprawled out on the ground exhausted and in pain, and yet you know they'll be back to do it again the next day.
I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was only allowed to continue so Intrepid had something to read while they're on lunch. Or relieving themselves of yesterday's lunch.
I have no clue why everyone's still here.
I was wondering where you are. And you finally came.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
For me, i stop there with sapi...
the last time i tried to debate with another one who did claims without anything support his claims, i was 19 and he was 20 (and fast after, he came back to discuss again... being far more informed and then we had interesting discussion... )
Sapi, you said yourself you don't play a lot video game, so you have low experience (and... it is fine, really, i won't blame you !) but you try to speak about a reality that is only yours, and... that all i saw in 19 years of online gaming prove to be false... Most of your claims is how i thought think 15 years ago in fact... And as time went, i saw this was not as simple as this... the more i played games, and the more i went on my studies, the more i saw such thought were false...
I never assumed something is perfect when plopped into an alien context.
Sapi is awakened, with all its love, peace, will to share experiences etc etc. (i still wait to know his favourite game btw... will i have the answer a day ? ...)
I'm still amazed that yall are entertaining that troll. Yall are too good and kind for this world
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
suffer the truth
This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports.
A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'.
It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted.
But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video.
Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results.
Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known.
Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already?
Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did?
Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else.
Ok, would we then be on to 'proving that my methods of training' (which are all explicitly built around training faster and better rather than harder) were not the real reason? I'm working out 'which player I would need to contact if I needed to make this point for some reason'.
Of course I should just ignore you, and in fact I'm not even claiming that, but I have that bad habit of continually checking to see if people are discussing things in good faith or not.
I have made my position clear.
Whoever you contact and what they say means nothing to me.
Whatever use your training has is marginal.
Perfect, thank you.
You have indicated that you are, by choice, IMMUNE to the truth of how Fighting Games work, and it would not be too weird to extend this to you being IMMUNE to the truth of how Trackers work.
However, @Mag7spy, I do not know for certain that you are also taking the path of 'Immunity to Facts' on this matter, so you can clarify it at your discretion too.
i have 0 clue what you are both talking about and im not reading every message
I'm still amazed that yall are entertaining that troll. Yall are too good and kind for this world
i am sometime too naiv with forum... Able to speak with lot of nice people with opposite idea (at least on some topics) like you (on this topic) makes me have hope in each people on the forum.
I hoped for days he could at least understand why we say "this is not the game for your idea"... Because i like some of his ideas, and those i dislike are not "bad" (just a problem of "taste" )...
*gives cookie to nikr ! *
I waited for them to be cooked ! see you later people
Sapi is awakened, with all its love, peace, will to share experiences etc etc. (i still wait to know his favourite game btw... will i have the answer a day ? ...)
I'm still amazed that yall are entertaining that troll. Yall are too good and kind for this world
Trolls are incredibly useful for lurkers because they, by nature, must take things to extremes. If one can avoid getting too mad or derailed by them, they are a useful medium with which to improve the growth of a community and its knowledge.
Btw, I came up with the perfect anti-tracker design! No stats! Only block and counter abilities, but on a huge variety scale. I imagined it as "rune-based". Mobs/bosses would have these kinds of circles on them
And players' abilities would be able to remove a single rune from the circle. The mob would die once the full circle is gone (bosses would have multiple).
Augments would add half a rune onto abilities and gear would add a half too (each piece its own). Half runes would be applied the same way a whole one would, so synergies between classes and gear builds would work just fine.
Tanks would be putting protective runes on people (cause mob/boss atks' have their own rune sets).
Bards would be creating buff rune sets (against environment hazards, auras, adds, etc) and would conjure anti-sets to prevent rune regeneration on targets.
Clerics would refresh those buffs to keep everyone alive.
DPS classes would have different sets of runes on their abilities, so you'd have good and bad matchups with different mobs (which could then be countered by augments and gear builds). Mobs would also regen their stuff at different speeds and have different amounts of particular sets, so the matchups could potentially be impossible for some raid setups.
The same rules would apply in pvp. Except the RPS balancing for classes would be even more pronounced, but also better countered by builds. Gear would be purely horizontal because of that and crafter would be able to add custom runes too.
In other words, the only things that would have to be changed in the game is the stats and this addition of runes. PvE would just be a visual puzzle, with no combat log feedback, so it and any trackers that might use it would be useless.
I look forward to your feedback on this definitely amazing idea, which I will read when I wake up And if there is in fact a way to utilize a tracker in that kind of system, I'd be glad to hear how (mainly so I could come up with a counter to that method ).
Btw, I came up with the perfect anti-tracker design! No stats! Only block and counter abilities, but on a huge variety scale. I imagined it as "rune-based". Mobs/bosses would have these kinds of circles on them
And players' abilities would be able to remove a single rune from the circle. The mob would die once the full circle is gone (bosses would have multiple).
Augments would add half a rune onto abilities and gear would add a half too (each piece its own). Half runes would be applied the same way a whole one would, so synergies between classes and gear builds would work just fine.
Tanks would be putting protective runes on people (cause mob/boss atks' have their own rune sets).
Bards would be creating buff rune sets (against environment hazards, auras, adds, etc) and would conjure anti-sets to prevent rune regeneration on targets.
Clerics would refresh those buffs to keep everyone alive.
DPS classes would have different sets of runes on their abilities, so you'd have good and bad matchups with different mobs (which could then be countered by augments and gear builds). Mobs would also regen their stuff at different speeds and have different amounts of particular sets, so the matchups could potentially be impossible for some raid setups.
The same rules would apply in pvp. Except the RPS balancing for classes would be even more pronounced, but also better countered by builds. Gear would be purely horizontal because of that and crafter would be able to add custom runes too.
In other words, the only things that would have to be changed in the game is the stats and this addition of runes. PvE would just be a visual puzzle, with no combat log feedback, so it and any trackers that might use it would be useless.
I look forward to your feedback on this definitely amazing idea, which I will read when I wake up And if there is in fact a way to utilize a tracker in that kind of system, I'd be glad to hear how (mainly so I could come up with a counter to that method ).
I already have a tracker for this type.
This is how the other FaceBook game I mentioned that I actually DID 'bot' worked mostly.
If the player can see the runes, my code can see it. If the code can see it, problem solved.
This would be moreso 'bottable' than 'parseable'.
lmk if you would like a code snippet.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
0
Options
HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It's like watching one of those slapstick comedies where the individuals beat the ever-living tar out of each other, end up sprawled out on the ground exhausted and in pain, and yet you know they'll be back to do it again the next day.
I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was only allowed to continue so Intrepid had something to read while they're on lunch. Or relieving themselves of yesterday's lunch.
I have no clue why everyone's still here.
I was wondering where you are. And you finally came.
My last message here was at page 150 I think? Might have missed it.
But yeah I said my piece about trackers wayyy back. So there was no need to stick around. But apparently this thread won't be denied its trip to the moon.
This is how the other FaceBook game I mentioned that I actually DID 'bot' worked mostly.
If the player can see the runes, my code can see it. If the code can see it, problem solved.
This would be moreso 'bottable' than 'parseable'.
lmk if you would like a code snippet.
You're too quick with responses! I haven't even gone to sleep yet. Would the bots still work if the game required you to use both action and tab combat? Cause if yes, then I don't really see how those kinds of bots wouldn't just dominate a game like Ashes.
As I saw it, the combat system itself (mechanically that is) wouldn't have to change, only the interactions of ability effects would be different and you'd have no stats so if the boss did a quick two-hit attack against a player who didn't have proper rune defense and didn't dodge - that'd be an instakill.
If bots can execute combat at the same lvl, then I'm sure we'll see a ton of them in Ashes pve.
And now I'm definitely going to bed cause my cat is sitting between me and my monitor cause she's waiting for me to go to bed.
All the people involved agree on most of the points. There are a few premises that are different causing the disagreement. These are what need to be further clarified, addressed, then resloved to avoid the continuous circular reasoning and restating points.
All Agree on:
Skill being rewarded
Problem:
Some think tracking rewards skill
Some think it reduces skill
Sap's/Mag's premise why it doesn't reward skill (my interpretation)
1. Doesn't want numbers to be provided to player period.
2. Doesn't think data structuring is a skill that should be rewarded
3. Thinks providing players with data is always reduces skill gap 100% of the time
4. Doesn't want enemy data revealed ever
Tracker-advocate's premises on why it does reward skill (my interpretation)
1. Thinks numbers will be a part of the game most likely, based on Intrepid's decision
2. Thinks data structuring is a skill that should be rewarded
3. Thinks that humans have limitations and can be overwhelmed with data without tools to assist, regardless of skill level.
4. Doesn't want most enemy data revealed, but thinks it will likely happen anyway.
Summarizing the premises:
1. Regardless of which is better, there is a difference in scope between the arguments. Some are arguing that since Intrepid will have numbers be a major aspect of play, then trackers should be a part of the game because it is the best case for that particular scenario, because even if some may agree that it could be fine to remove number info altogether, Intrepid will likely not do that. So there can be 2 different conlcusions on the matter of trackers, simply based on which if those 2 scnarios are the case. That means pointless argument if each is arguing from each of those scenarios.
2. Whether or not data structuring should be a rewarded skill is a matter of preference. However, it is objectively wrong to think it should not be rewarded solely by virtue of believing it is not a skill to begin with. This is proven by any game that tests this skill in its systems. If you have a system that rewards this skill, there will be dominant players. Some peope are better at this than others.
3. There is a lot of talk about whether the data makes things easier or harder. This is subjectively dependent on the human abilities. One side claims you should "gather that data through experience", the other side claims "you cannot gather it through experience". This depends on the human ability, but what is true is that at a granular level, you can reach a point that regardless of skill level it becomes humanly impossible to gather such specifics of data. The question then becomes "is that okay"? Well- since we agree that skill should be rewarded, then the answer is no, that is not okay- because that lack of access to data is preventing that gap in player skill from players that will better leverage that data, and acquisition of said data is not tied to skill level to be able to compensate for this (due to its impossible nature for most people to naturally obtain).
4. Most agree that having access to *certain enemy data" reduces the strategy and skill. The disagreement is whether trackers will cause this data to be revealed- and if it will cause this, will removing trackers actually prevent this from happening, or will happen regardless. This is due to a misunderstanding on one side of how they work. (I personally don't know enough to have an opinion on this particular point of disagreement.)
Sap and I went in depth over several days on most of these already, and it was pretty much mutually accepted (my interpretation at least), that:
A) I understood him to be arguing from a different scope and can understand his points within that context.
B)That Sap understood most of the tracker-advocates premises to be true within a certain scope of argument.
I am not sure why some of those that accepted certain premises are repeating the same arguments against said premises but to different people, as if that will change the conclusion.
Please discuss. Try to keep things relevant to the premises that were stated, unless there is further clarification needed on said premises.
This is how the other FaceBook game I mentioned that I actually DID 'bot' worked mostly.
If the player can see the runes, my code can see it. If the code can see it, problem solved.
This would be moreso 'bottable' than 'parseable'.
lmk if you would like a code snippet.
You're too quick with responses! I haven't even gone to sleep yet. Would the bots still work if the game required you to use both action and tab combat? Cause if yes, then I don't really see how those kinds of bots wouldn't just dominate a game like Ashes.
As I saw it, the combat system itself (mechanically that is) wouldn't have to change, only the interactions of ability effects would be different and you'd have no stats so if the boss did a quick two-hit attack against a player who didn't have proper rune defense and didn't dodge - that'd be an instakill.
If bots can execute combat at the same lvl, then I'm sure we'll see a ton of them in Ashes pve.
And now I'm definitely going to bed cause my cat is sitting between me and my monitor cause she's waiting for me to go to bed.
Well, sleep well.
For others, and whenever NiKr awakens, the bots would still work if the game required you to use both kinds of combat.
Explaining how to create gameplay that bots cannot do is a touchy subject among many players because of the fact that what limits bots isn't what many players think it is (or want it to be).
Most games are now an 'input output system' because that's what many average players can handle. You see X under Y condition, you do Z. That's where Tool Assisted Speedruns come from. The main thing that stops Bots is the requirement to think ahead (or recognize and track things that are in the past and also explicitly no longer on screen relative to things that MIGHT happen in the future.).
On this point, Hostile Design works well, but not well enough, because bots are better at tracking stuff that is in the past and no longer on screen than players, so to stop bots, you have to frustrate players MORE than bots, and the bots still dominate.
For this reason, increasing the 'number of conditions' doesn't deter most bots. This is why only 'high speed and obfuscation of movement' in the Action Combat part of games seems to matter. But then you're still frustrating many players more than you're actually stopping bots.
Bots are stopped by creating layered scenarios where they must anticipate a probabilistic sequence without sufficient training data. These days, that's the only way.
Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.
(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).
Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time
Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
It's like watching one of those slapstick comedies where the individuals beat the ever-living tar out of each other, end up sprawled out on the ground exhausted and in pain, and yet you know they'll be back to do it again the next day.
I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was only allowed to continue so Intrepid had something to read while they're on lunch. Or relieving themselves of yesterday's lunch.
I have no clue why everyone's still here.
I was wondering where you are. And you finally came.
My last message here was at page 150 I think? Might have missed it.
But yeah I said my piece about trackers wayyy back. So there was no need to stick around. But apparently this thread won't be denied its trip to the moon.
Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.
(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).
Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time
Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons.
Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.
(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).
Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time
Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons.
I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me.
Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself.
I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too.
Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.
(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).
Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time
Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons.
I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me.
Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself.
I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too.
I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player.
You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss.
You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head.
Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.
(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).
Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time
Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons.
I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me.
Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself.
I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too.
I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player.
You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss.
You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head.
That's why I asked you before about that specific situation where you can tell the difference between four Active Frames and five Active Frames, because that IS a situation where afaik normal humans can't tell the difference, but the difference is important. I want to understand your perspective on that scenario, because that scenario is real.
Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.
(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).
Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time
Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons.
I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me.
Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself.
I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too.
I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player.
You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss.
You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head.
That's why I asked you before about that specific situation where you can tell the difference between four Active Frames and five Active Frames, because that IS a situation where afaik normal humans can't tell the difference, but the difference is important. I want to understand your perspective on that scenario, because that scenario is real.
We already have gone over this you should know the moves on your character and or able to figure out in fights the speed of which skill you need to use....
Comments
Good job on picking up someone that out-works everyone else.
Ok, would we then be on to 'proving that my methods of training' (which are all explicitly built around training faster and better rather than harder) were not the real reason? I'm working out 'which player I would need to contact if I needed to make this point for some reason'.
Of course I should just ignore you, and in fact I'm not even claiming that, but I have that bad habit of continually checking to see if people are discussing things in good faith or not.
I have made my position clear.
Whoever you contact and what they say means nothing to me.
Whatever use your training has is marginal.
I have no clue why everyone's still here.
Perfect, thank you.
You have indicated that you are, by choice, IMMUNE to the truth of how Fighting Games work, and it would not be too weird to extend this to you being IMMUNE to the truth of how Trackers work.
However, @Mag7spy, I do not know for certain that you are also taking the path of 'Immunity to Facts' on this matter, so you can clarify it at your discretion too.
Sapi, you said yourself you don't play a lot video game, so you have low experience (and... it is fine, really, i won't blame you !) but you try to speak about a reality that is only yours, and... that all i saw in 19 years of online gaming prove to be false... Most of your claims is how i thought think 15 years ago in fact... And as time went, i saw this was not as simple as this... the more i played games, and the more i went on my studies, the more i saw such thought were false...
You are not even able to gave specific example of video game to prove your ideas are good.
You are not even able to give one game you know that manage to avoid people to do data analysis to prove it possible. You just say "it is possible/good"
I was wondering where you are. And you finally came.
I never assumed something is perfect when plopped into an alien context.
Maybe that is just your own flaw.
i have 0 clue what you are both talking about and im not reading every message
i am sometime too naiv with forum... Able to speak with lot of nice people with opposite idea (at least on some topics) like you (on this topic) makes me have hope in each people on the forum.
I hoped for days he could at least understand why we say "this is not the game for your idea"... Because i like some of his ideas, and those i dislike are not "bad" (just a problem of "taste" )...
*gives cookie to nikr ! *
I waited for them to be cooked ! see you later people
I'm not sure how to tell you this, but it's possible for those two things to actually not be connected.
At least one Dev on Ashes' team is highly likely to in fact, be...
The GOAT.
we are the animals, it was just the first picture that came up.
Trolls are incredibly useful for lurkers because they, by nature, must take things to extremes. If one can avoid getting too mad or derailed by them, they are a useful medium with which to improve the growth of a community and its knowledge.
Like manure.
You can't spell boobs backwards on a tracker but some people fixate on trackers like boobs.
And players' abilities would be able to remove a single rune from the circle. The mob would die once the full circle is gone (bosses would have multiple).
Augments would add half a rune onto abilities and gear would add a half too (each piece its own). Half runes would be applied the same way a whole one would, so synergies between classes and gear builds would work just fine.
Tanks would be putting protective runes on people (cause mob/boss atks' have their own rune sets).
Bards would be creating buff rune sets (against environment hazards, auras, adds, etc) and would conjure anti-sets to prevent rune regeneration on targets.
Clerics would refresh those buffs to keep everyone alive.
DPS classes would have different sets of runes on their abilities, so you'd have good and bad matchups with different mobs (which could then be countered by augments and gear builds). Mobs would also regen their stuff at different speeds and have different amounts of particular sets, so the matchups could potentially be impossible for some raid setups.
The same rules would apply in pvp. Except the RPS balancing for classes would be even more pronounced, but also better countered by builds. Gear would be purely horizontal because of that and crafter would be able to add custom runes too.
In other words, the only things that would have to be changed in the game is the stats and this addition of runes. PvE would just be a visual puzzle, with no combat log feedback, so it and any trackers that might use it would be useless.
I look forward to your feedback on this definitely amazing idea, which I will read when I wake up
I already have a tracker for this type.
This is how the other FaceBook game I mentioned that I actually DID 'bot' worked mostly.
If the player can see the runes, my code can see it. If the code can see it, problem solved.
This would be moreso 'bottable' than 'parseable'.
lmk if you would like a code snippet.
My last message here was at page 150 I think? Might have missed it.
But yeah I said my piece about trackers wayyy back. So there was no need to stick around. But apparently this thread won't be denied its trip to the moon.
As I saw it, the combat system itself (mechanically that is) wouldn't have to change, only the interactions of ability effects would be different and you'd have no stats so if the boss did a quick two-hit attack against a player who didn't have proper rune defense and didn't dodge - that'd be an instakill.
If bots can execute combat at the same lvl, then I'm sure we'll see a ton of them in Ashes pve.
And now I'm definitely going to bed cause my cat is sitting between me and my monitor cause she's waiting for me to go to bed.
@Sapiverenus
@Azherae
@Noaani
@Mag7spy
All the people involved agree on most of the points. There are a few premises that are different causing the disagreement. These are what need to be further clarified, addressed, then resloved to avoid the continuous circular reasoning and restating points.
All Agree on:
Skill being rewarded
Problem:
Some think tracking rewards skill
Some think it reduces skill
Sap's/Mag's premise why it doesn't reward skill (my interpretation)
1. Doesn't want numbers to be provided to player period.
2. Doesn't think data structuring is a skill that should be rewarded
3. Thinks providing players with data is always reduces skill gap 100% of the time
4. Doesn't want enemy data revealed ever
Tracker-advocate's premises on why it does reward skill (my interpretation)
1. Thinks numbers will be a part of the game most likely, based on Intrepid's decision
2. Thinks data structuring is a skill that should be rewarded
3. Thinks that humans have limitations and can be overwhelmed with data without tools to assist, regardless of skill level.
4. Doesn't want most enemy data revealed, but thinks it will likely happen anyway.
Summarizing the premises:
1. Regardless of which is better, there is a difference in scope between the arguments. Some are arguing that since Intrepid will have numbers be a major aspect of play, then trackers should be a part of the game because it is the best case for that particular scenario, because even if some may agree that it could be fine to remove number info altogether, Intrepid will likely not do that. So there can be 2 different conlcusions on the matter of trackers, simply based on which if those 2 scnarios are the case. That means pointless argument if each is arguing from each of those scenarios.
2. Whether or not data structuring should be a rewarded skill is a matter of preference. However, it is objectively wrong to think it should not be rewarded solely by virtue of believing it is not a skill to begin with. This is proven by any game that tests this skill in its systems. If you have a system that rewards this skill, there will be dominant players. Some peope are better at this than others.
3. There is a lot of talk about whether the data makes things easier or harder. This is subjectively dependent on the human abilities. One side claims you should "gather that data through experience", the other side claims "you cannot gather it through experience". This depends on the human ability, but what is true is that at a granular level, you can reach a point that regardless of skill level it becomes humanly impossible to gather such specifics of data. The question then becomes "is that okay"? Well- since we agree that skill should be rewarded, then the answer is no, that is not okay- because that lack of access to data is preventing that gap in player skill from players that will better leverage that data, and acquisition of said data is not tied to skill level to be able to compensate for this (due to its impossible nature for most people to naturally obtain).
4. Most agree that having access to *certain enemy data" reduces the strategy and skill. The disagreement is whether trackers will cause this data to be revealed- and if it will cause this, will removing trackers actually prevent this from happening, or will happen regardless. This is due to a misunderstanding on one side of how they work. (I personally don't know enough to have an opinion on this particular point of disagreement.)
Sap and I went in depth over several days on most of these already, and it was pretty much mutually accepted (my interpretation at least), that:
A) I understood him to be arguing from a different scope and can understand his points within that context.
B)That Sap understood most of the tracker-advocates premises to be true within a certain scope of argument.
I am not sure why some of those that accepted certain premises are repeating the same arguments against said premises but to different people, as if that will change the conclusion.
Please discuss. Try to keep things relevant to the premises that were stated, unless there is further clarification needed on said premises.
Well, sleep well.
For others, and whenever NiKr awakens, the bots would still work if the game required you to use both kinds of combat.
Explaining how to create gameplay that bots cannot do is a touchy subject among many players because of the fact that what limits bots isn't what many players think it is (or want it to be).
Most games are now an 'input output system' because that's what many average players can handle. You see X under Y condition, you do Z. That's where Tool Assisted Speedruns come from. The main thing that stops Bots is the requirement to think ahead (or recognize and track things that are in the past and also explicitly no longer on screen relative to things that MIGHT happen in the future.).
On this point, Hostile Design works well, but not well enough, because bots are better at tracking stuff that is in the past and no longer on screen than players, so to stop bots, you have to frustrate players MORE than bots, and the bots still dominate.
For this reason, increasing the 'number of conditions' doesn't deter most bots. This is why only 'high speed and obfuscation of movement' in the Action Combat part of games seems to matter. But then you're still frustrating many players more than you're actually stopping bots.
Bots are stopped by creating layered scenarios where they must anticipate a probabilistic sequence without sufficient training data. These days, that's the only way.
Thank you for the summary.
Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.
(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).
Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time
Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons.
I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me.
Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself.
I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too.
I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player.
You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss.
You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head.
That's why I asked you before about that specific situation where you can tell the difference between four Active Frames and five Active Frames, because that IS a situation where afaik normal humans can't tell the difference, but the difference is important. I want to understand your perspective on that scenario, because that scenario is real.
We already have gone over this you should know the moves on your character and or able to figure out in fights the speed of which skill you need to use....