Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg.
Combat trackers do not only cater to raiders. They cater to anyone that wants to be better.
In terms of their usefulness in regards to content (as opposed to their usefulness in regards to player build, player improvement or game system research), they are only really of use on harder content.
However, I would like to see some group content in Ashes that is hard.
Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
I agree.
The thing is, a combat tracker is an essential tool for good PvE.
it is not a essential tool for good PVE. Anything in pve you can do without the tool...It simply gives you a short cut to need to use more tiem to explore and figure things out and more quickly get your answer. Effectively reducing pve difficulty for games int he past or their potential time frame to complete it. To the point older games knowing about trackers created weird game play around it, or trackers because the games were older was the best way to figure out content as certain technically limits made content harder by default.
So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.
That doesn't make trackers less useful though.
It doesn't make them more useful either.
It basically just leaves them exactly where they are.
As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some.
I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this.
you just played the game
you know where you are
you just want to avoid the work of improving
because reading logs is easier than struggling in-game
But - a combat tracker doesn't allow you to avoid the work of improving.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
it is not a essential tool for good PVE. Anything in pve you can do without the tool...It simply gives you a short cut to need to use more tiem to explore and figure things out and more quickly get your answer.
OK, so a combat tracker makes things easier. Let's go with this.
What that means is that developers can then make things harder, as a form of compensation for trackers making things easier.
As such, a game is able to have harder, more complex content with trackers than without. Harder, more complex = better.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
Yeah, someone wanting an old style MMO probably shouldn't bother with a game that literally had the promotional tagline "Make MMO's Great Again". Clearly this is a concept that says old games were shit and we want nothing to do with them.
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game.
If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question?
It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT.
Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect)
There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob.
But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
Yeah, someone wanting an old style MMO probably shouldn't bother with a game that literally had the promotional tagline "Make MMO's Great Again".
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
At the same time I hear from your side with trackers that you will use trackers no matter what and don't care what devs say or want.
Catering to the single digit of people that do raids and want them to be difficult and have trackers is not going to sustain a mmorpg.
Combat trackers do not only cater to raiders. They cater to anyone that wants to be better.
In terms of their usefulness in regards to content (as opposed to their usefulness in regards to player build, player improvement or game system research), they are only really of use on harder content.
However, I would like to see some group content in Ashes that is hard.
Making a good game with good gameplay loops, replayability, fun pvp, Politic driven pvp and territory control, good pve, good content overall, not destroyed by bugs WILL make a mmorpg with a community that will sustain itself.
I agree.
The thing is, a combat tracker is an essential tool for good PvE.
So how do you profit from this? Where does cash enter the picture?
You're making $$$ somehow
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
At the same time I hear from your side with trackers that you will use trackers no matter what and don't care what devs say or want.
So are you and Sapiverenus that far apart really?
It's me that said that, not Azherae.
More to the point, what I said was that regardless of what the developers want, combat trackers will not be against the rules.
What they want doesn't matter. What matters is what rules they are able to make. If I follow all applicable rules, I fail to see why I would then also need to follow requests.
I was going to comment on this about old mmorpg combat, but ill just link this.
That isn't "old" MMO combat. It is "shit" MMO combat.
It's kind of like saying that building things in an MMO is shit, because of this game.
All old mmorpgs combat is out of date, that one is just one i can meme on. Though some of the older mmorpgs have improved a bit by adding some action combat like GW2
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game.
If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question?
It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT.
Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect)
There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob.
But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm.
This is not true, I will go right ahead and explain why.
I can write a script that, at the 'hardware' level, takes a 'screenshot' of a part of my screen that I specify every time a specific thing happens. That can be 'every X frames', 'every time I press ANY button or move my mouse', etc.
This can save the 'screenshot', but it doesn't have to, it just stores the image information in the program I'm running (which, again, I can write myself, it's easy, and while you could probably detect it, you could not 'prove what it is doing is related to Ashes' in any way).
This image information then gets fed into the Character Recognition code/software in a multitude of extremely easy ways OR...
I write even simpler code to do the 'Character Recognition' (this is my usual preference because it's easier and takes less processing).
Logs are now read from the game real time as it is played. Now, the obvious concept from there would be 'well that would create a program that Intrepid could detect because of some other stuff'. No, you'd just have it write the results to the text file.
See the problem? I ran a script that 'reads a small part of my screen for an image, and puts the text from that into a text file' or WORSE, NOT a text file (because then you can't check for any evidence of the text while Ashes is running even if you had super-surveillance).
A person doing this is not going to be the sort of person who calls this program 'AoCScreen2Log_ver2.sh'.
the Big Point of it is that people that rely on trackers are not fun or engaging players, looking for ways to make the game easier for themself, and those that create and use them tend to create bots & scripts or approve of them.
They may not be fun for you to play with, I won't dispute that.
The thing is, you are no fun for them to play with.
Some people like to stop and admire the scenery. That is fine, they are welcome to do that.
Others like to push through content as quickly as they can so they can then get on to other things - be that in game or out of game.
These two groups really shouldn't mix.
Then there are those that use and/or create trackers because they make $$$ somehow from the market
So if they want trackers to be not as useful they simply need to make the game more difficult and have a decent and fair learning curve with a high skill ceiling.
That doesn't make trackers less useful though.
It doesn't make them more useful either.
It basically just leaves them exactly where they are.
As it stands, the correct use of a tracker to improve yourself in a game is that you determine where you are before you work on improving - you use a tracker to do this. Then you, well, you work on getting better. Then you use a tracker to compare where you were when you started with where you are after having worked to get better some.
I fail to see how a higher skill ceiling changes any of this.
you just played the game
you know where you are
you just want to avoid the work of improving
because reading logs is easier than struggling in-game
But - a combat tracker doesn't allow you to avoid the work of improving.
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
As such you prefer games that don't require skill and hope Ashes of Creation is easy to get good at.
Two rogues once used identical builds and trackers to achieve the almost impossible task of being joint top. It was never achieved no matter how many times these two rogues farmed the same bosses. One was always first and the other was always second.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
Yeah, someone wanting an old style MMO probably shouldn't bother with a game that literally had the promotional tagline "Make MMO's Great Again". Clearly this is a concept that says old games were shit and we want nothing to do with them.
LMAO indeed.
I agree. MMOs were never good. Nostalgia wears off fast when you're dropping millions though.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
Make sure there's hostile patterns built into stuff to screw visual recognition software.
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
You know you seems dumb with your "lmao" and attack ?
i never said i wanted old mmorpg... I could play BC classic (my favourite period of play on wow was BC) but... nope.
But some feelings i had back then... I already expressed on various thread what i meant about it. and... oh miracle, most if not all thing i want to remove in modern MMORPG won't be a thing in ashes, like duty finder for example (one amongst other).
MMORPG for me began in 1997 with ultima online, EQ, DAOC were 2 strong basis that defined the genre. And then, it continued to evolve as any genre. it evolve thru decisions of design...
Modern MMORPG became more solo game with some coop system because this is what gather more customers (so more money). And lot of people love this kind of design.
But me i prefer the "old design" where all those thing are not there... this is why i said speaking about "old good time" ... note i used the quote when i said it. for a simple reason : the MMORPG from "old good time" had lots of flaws... and i would be far from complaining to not have the modern flaw... but also remove the old one.
And i think i can speak about highend content after the time spend on them on other MMORPG... and not only mmorpg.
Your idea is not the hardcore of "hardcore player" but the "hardcore playstyle" ... as hardcore in POE which is just a "definitiv death mode" ... but still totally enjoyable for casual gamer. Such kind of game design is far from what was promised for AoC... and i personally doubt it could fit MMORPG (the "game over server" idea for example is, imo, contrary to MMORPG that are for me games which have no ending at all)
Top end players in any game, (so the "grand master") are good not only because they train hours and hours each day... they also watch lot of data (how they watch it may vary depending game genre)
For MMORPG, the datas are... pure data, huge list of numbers. and only way to watch it is... spreadsheet. Combat tracker function is ... to display the spreadsheet without spending tons of hours just to create it.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people).
The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people).
The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
The downside of no logs is that it means those of us that do still run trackers would have a far greater advantage over those that do not, if those that do not literally have no access at all to logs.
It is my opinion that this would be the worst single path the game could take in this regard.
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
You know you seems dumb with your "lmao" and attack ?
i never said i wanted old mmorpg... but some feelings i had back then... I already expressed on various thread what i meant about it. and... oh miracle, most if not all thing i want to remove in modern MMORPG won't be a thing in ashes, like duty finder for example (one amongst other)
And i think i can speak about highend content after the time spend on them on other MMORPG... and not only mmorpg.
Your idea is not the hardcore of "hardcore player" but the "hardcore playstyle" ... as hardcore in POE which is just a "definitiv death mode" ... but still totally enjoyable for casual gamer
Top end players in any game, (so the "grand master") are good not only because they train hours and hours each day... they also watch lot of data (how they watch it may vary depending game genre)
For MMORPG, the datas are... pure data, huge list of numbers. and only way to watch it is... spreadsheet. Combat tracker function is ... to display the spreadsheet without spending tons of hours just to create it.
When you are against PvE Pressure, reduced level power scaling, reduced XP to Max, more weighty resource management, XP on Use it seems, extra PvP, deeper action combat. . . against everything that increases skill ceiling. . .
Yeah what is anyone suppose to believe. Your bullshit or your opinion?
You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game.
If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question?
It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT.
Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect)
There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob.
But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm.
This is not true, I will go right ahead and explain why.
I can write a script that, at the 'hardware' level, takes a 'screenshot' of a part of my screen that I specify every time a specific thing happens. That can be 'every X frames', 'every time I press ANY button or move my mouse', etc.
This can save the 'screenshot', but it doesn't have to, it just stores the image information in the program I'm running (which, again, I can write myself, it's easy, and while you could probably detect it, you could not 'prove what it is doing is related to Ashes' in any way).
This image information then gets fed into the Character Recognition code/software in a multitude of extremely easy ways OR...
I write even simpler code to do the 'Character Recognition' (this is my usual preference because it's easier and takes less processing).
Logs are now read from the game real time as it is played. Now, the obvious concept from there would be 'well that would create a program that Intrepid could detect because of some other stuff'. No, you'd just have it write the results to the text file.
See the problem? I ran a script that 'reads a small part of my screen for an image, and puts the text from that into a text file' or WORSE, NOT a text file (because then you can't check for any evidence of the text while Ashes is running even if you had super-surveillance).
A person doing this is not going to be the sort of person who calls this program 'AoCScreen2Log_ver2.sh'.
If they can detect things they very well could take action even if the name of text file is not obvious but they can pick something up.
I'm not doubting what you can do, there are people that made hundreds of thousands of bots on lost ark and found ways around to exploit for awhile and still now I'm sure.
But you are going through so many loops at this point not just in reading the information but having to decipher the information as well so it makes sense to put it on a tracker. (this is where the combat log does its math different than the number on the screen). Then trying to decipher everyone stuff base don different key bindings and the issues you will run into it will make it such a hassle most people won't be doing that at all.
On top of having skill based gameplay where people have less care for trackers and simply use combat log to min max some of their damage.
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people).
The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design.
If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly.
Comments
it is not a essential tool for good PVE. Anything in pve you can do without the tool...It simply gives you a short cut to need to use more tiem to explore and figure things out and more quickly get your answer. Effectively reducing pve difficulty for games int he past or their potential time frame to complete it. To the point older games knowing about trackers created weird game play around it, or trackers because the games were older was the best way to figure out content as certain technically limits made content harder by default.
But - a combat tracker doesn't allow you to avoid the work of improving.
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
OK, so a combat tracker makes things easier. Let's go with this.
What that means is that developers can then make things harder, as a form of compensation for trackers making things easier.
As such, a game is able to have harder, more complex content with trackers than without. Harder, more complex = better.
Yeah, someone wanting an old style MMO probably shouldn't bother with a game that literally had the promotional tagline "Make MMO's Great Again". Clearly this is a concept that says old games were shit and we want nothing to do with them.
LMAO indeed.
There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob.
But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm.
I was going to comment on this about old mmorpg combat, but ill just link this.
So far, we are talking about an add on for ACT.
Since you would need to download a game specific plugin for ACT anyway, making that an add on instead isn't much of a stretch.
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
At the same time I hear from your side with trackers that you will use trackers no matter what and don't care what devs say or want.
So are you and Sapiverenus that far apart really?
It's kind of like saying that building things in an MMO is shit, because of this game.
So how do you profit from this? Where does cash enter the picture?
You're making $$$ somehow
It's me that said that, not Azherae.
More to the point, what I said was that regardless of what the developers want, combat trackers will not be against the rules.
What they want doesn't matter. What matters is what rules they are able to make. If I follow all applicable rules, I fail to see why I would then also need to follow requests.
All old mmorpgs combat is out of date, that one is just one i can meme on. Though some of the older mmorpgs have improved a bit by adding some action combat like GW2
This is not true, I will go right ahead and explain why.
I can write a script that, at the 'hardware' level, takes a 'screenshot' of a part of my screen that I specify every time a specific thing happens. That can be 'every X frames', 'every time I press ANY button or move my mouse', etc.
This can save the 'screenshot', but it doesn't have to, it just stores the image information in the program I'm running (which, again, I can write myself, it's easy, and while you could probably detect it, you could not 'prove what it is doing is related to Ashes' in any way).
This image information then gets fed into the Character Recognition code/software in a multitude of extremely easy ways OR...
I write even simpler code to do the 'Character Recognition' (this is my usual preference because it's easier and takes less processing).
Logs are now read from the game real time as it is played. Now, the obvious concept from there would be 'well that would create a program that Intrepid could detect because of some other stuff'. No, you'd just have it write the results to the text file.
See the problem? I ran a script that 'reads a small part of my screen for an image, and puts the text from that into a text file' or WORSE, NOT a text file (because then you can't check for any evidence of the text while Ashes is running even if you had super-surveillance).
A person doing this is not going to be the sort of person who calls this program 'AoCScreen2Log_ver2.sh'.
Then there are those that use and/or create trackers because they make $$$ somehow from the market
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
As such you prefer games that don't require skill and hope Ashes of Creation is easy to get good at.
Player skill can never be identical.
I agree. MMOs were never good. Nostalgia wears off fast when you're dropping millions though.
Also, the tracker I would suggest people to use (should anyone ask me for a recommendation) is free.
The reason you can't find where the 'money' is, is because there isn't any.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
Make sure there's hostile patterns built into stuff to screw visual recognition software.
You know you seems dumb with your "lmao" and attack ?
i never said i wanted old mmorpg... I could play BC classic (my favourite period of play on wow was BC) but... nope.
But some feelings i had back then... I already expressed on various thread what i meant about it. and... oh miracle, most if not all thing i want to remove in modern MMORPG won't be a thing in ashes, like duty finder for example (one amongst other).
MMORPG for me began in 1997 with ultima online, EQ, DAOC were 2 strong basis that defined the genre. And then, it continued to evolve as any genre. it evolve thru decisions of design...
Modern MMORPG became more solo game with some coop system because this is what gather more customers (so more money). And lot of people love this kind of design.
But me i prefer the "old design" where all those thing are not there... this is why i said speaking about "old good time" ... note i used the quote when i said it. for a simple reason : the MMORPG from "old good time" had lots of flaws... and i would be far from complaining to not have the modern flaw... but also remove the old one.
And i think i can speak about highend content after the time spend on them on other MMORPG... and not only mmorpg.
Your idea is not the hardcore of "hardcore player" but the "hardcore playstyle" ... as hardcore in POE which is just a "definitiv death mode" ... but still totally enjoyable for casual gamer. Such kind of game design is far from what was promised for AoC... and i personally doubt it could fit MMORPG (the "game over server" idea for example is, imo, contrary to MMORPG that are for me games which have no ending at all)
Top end players in any game, (so the "grand master") are good not only because they train hours and hours each day... they also watch lot of data (how they watch it may vary depending game genre)
For MMORPG, the datas are... pure data, huge list of numbers. and only way to watch it is... spreadsheet. Combat tracker function is ... to display the spreadsheet without spending tons of hours just to create it.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people).
The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
The downside of no logs is that it means those of us that do still run trackers would have a far greater advantage over those that do not, if those that do not literally have no access at all to logs.
It is my opinion that this would be the worst single path the game could take in this regard.
When you are against PvE Pressure, reduced level power scaling, reduced XP to Max, more weighty resource management, XP on Use it seems, extra PvP, deeper action combat. . . against everything that increases skill ceiling. . .
Yeah what is anyone suppose to believe. Your bullshit or your opinion?
If they can detect things they very well could take action even if the name of text file is not obvious but they can pick something up.
I'm not doubting what you can do, there are people that made hundreds of thousands of bots on lost ark and found ways around to exploit for awhile and still now I'm sure.
But you are going through so many loops at this point not just in reading the information but having to decipher the information as well so it makes sense to put it on a tracker. (this is where the combat log does its math different than the number on the screen). Then trying to decipher everyone stuff base don different key bindings and the issues you will run into it will make it such a hassle most people won't be doing that at all.
On top of having skill based gameplay where people have less care for trackers and simply use combat log to min max some of their damage.
There will be less need or desire for trackers.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design.
If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly.
Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters.