Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.
(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).
Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time
Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons.
I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me.
Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself.
I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too.
I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player.
You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss.
You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head.
That's why I asked you before about that specific situation where you can tell the difference between four Active Frames and five Active Frames, because that IS a situation where afaik normal humans can't tell the difference, but the difference is important. I want to understand your perspective on that scenario, because that scenario is real.
We already have gone over this you should know the moves on your character and or able to figure out in fights the speed of which skill you need to use....
Yes I understand that you believe that, and I'm asking you just one thing.
I can make it so that when you block, SOMETIMES you should use your fastest move to defend yourself, and sometimes you should not use it or I will be guaranteed to do 1/3 of your health in damage, and the only way you will know which of those things happened is if you can somehow figure out which Active Frame of MY move hit, within 1/3 of a second.
I would like to understand how YOU do this, and how you believe a person is supposed to do this. Remember, I, the attacker, am controlling which thing happens in some VERY subtle way. If you would like a video I can provide it. Or to rephrase it as a multiple choice question if you will humor me, here are the answers I can think of:
a) That is impossible to do, for the attacker, because that's not how fighting games work. (this is the trick answer, don't pick this one, because I can prove it is how they work)
b) That is bad design if the attacker can ever do this in an ambiguous way
c) People can just tell one frame difference at the moment it happens
d) I have never played a game like that and I would need to think about it more
e) Other (Please Specify)
I don't wanna derail here, but you keep saying I'm manipulative or dishonest and I would like to clear THAT up with you at least.
I haven't seen any combat in Ashes which requires frame to frame fighting. There's no synergies, no directional attacks and no active block last I saw. There certainly is no complexity in anything shown so far. Even the pve bosses have been tank and spank.
Unfortunately I must (shamefully?) admit that I KNOW this conversation is pointless in terms of convincing the anti-tracker pair, I engage only with the hope that those who do NOT understand that certain things work in certain ways, who are not posting, might learn something.
(there is a certain subset of people who engages with forums by checking only my posts, when things are going quickly).
Therefore unfortunately I have little to discuss except as a response to people misrepresenting what I currently know to be possibility. Mag and Sapi understand for the most part that what they are saying is false, they just need it to not be false for various reasons, and I just 'have to' call them out on that every time
Just in case there is actually some flaw-point in their Jenga-towers of logic that is supporting what they genuinely still believe.
What you say is false and you manipulate information lmao. You are not in the right and make false comparisons.
I'm glad to revisit whatever the last false thing I said was, if you point it out for me.
Note that it would need to be something that isn't just your opinion on how something works. If it is generally your opinion, please back it up with some other thing that is at least a strong theory so I can educate myself.
I'm being serious here, because the way you normally answer/engage with me doesn't usually communicate what exactly it is you think I'm incorrect about, you just say that I am without much clarification sometimes. Please clarify it this time... or just ignore this, that's fine too.
I'm being very serious as well, you try to make false comparisons at what you believe is right and take it as fact. You tried to argue about tacking akin to fighting games like that is a reason for trackers on "enhancing the experience". You try to talk like without it there are certain things you can't do when that is false in itself. Through experience you learn and understand the game, and skill will allow you to understand how to take on challenges and counter moves people do. You don't need to sit there looking at frames all day that isnt going to make you a better player.
You are putting other information in this conversation trying to say "This has that so it means trackers can do everything" While missing the point I keep making. Skill is better, skill means there is les emphasis on trackers because the gameplay will be different then playing a tab target mmorpg where you stand in one spot and blow up a boss.
You jump in to these conversations with a bias thinking you are simply right, and everyone else is wrong, and make false comparisons to attempt to prove your point or make up weird things in your head.
That's why I asked you before about that specific situation where you can tell the difference between four Active Frames and five Active Frames, because that IS a situation where afaik normal humans can't tell the difference, but the difference is important. I want to understand your perspective on that scenario, because that scenario is real.
We already have gone over this you should know the moves on your character and or able to figure out in fights the speed of which skill you need to use....
Yes I understand that you believe that, and I'm asking you just one thing.
I can make it so that when you block, SOMETIMES you should use your fastest move to defend yourself, and sometimes you should not use it or I will be guaranteed to do 1/3 of your health in damage, and the only way you will know which of those things happened is if you can somehow figure out which Active Frame of MY move hit, within 1/3 of a second.
I would like to understand how YOU do this, and how you believe a person is supposed to do this. Remember, I, the attacker, am controlling which thing happens in some VERY subtle way. If you would like a video I can provide it. Or to rephrase it as a multiple choice question if you will humor me, here are the answers I can think of:
a) That is impossible to do, for the attacker, because that's not how fighting games work. (this is the trick answer, don't pick this one, because I can prove it is how they work)
b) That is bad design if the attacker can ever do this in an ambiguous way
c) People can just tell one frame difference at the moment it happens
d) I have never played a game like that and I would need to think about it more
e) Other (Please Specify)
I don't wanna derail here, but you keep saying I'm manipulative or dishonest and I would like to clear THAT up with you at least.
You should be able to feel the frames of the move and the speed. If you have been hit by it before you simply use a faster move and should be able to tell the speed as a gauge mid fight.
It is pretty obvious what moves you have are fast when you know your command list. Without this you aren't going to be able to throw people off that are trying to predict block your attacks based on frames they expect.
Which in a actual fight against skilled players this is a different fight, compared to normal players that the person blocks and predicts their movements based on the frames they expect which can lead into you getting countered with a opening.
None of this has anything to do with mmorpgs btw. If a mmorpg had combat this complex trackers for mmorpgs would mean nothing it would be all skill. Wouldn't matter if you know dmg, what was coming, hp, etc. Skilled player wins every fight.
This has nothing to do with trackers in mmorpgs with the information you get from them. This is a false comparison as I've said again and again.
But you don't care you need to try to rework things in how you want, which is not reality.
I agree that it's a false comparison up to a point, so let me ask you this instead.
If Ashes is supposed to be Action Combat skill, and it starts to matter in Ashes because of how action Combat works (it matters in BDO, the community has been arguing about the frame data for Sorceress for years) will you have the same perspective on frame data readers as on Trackers?
This is the thing I'm trying to understand. Action Combat means that you need MORE frame data information and less Combat Tracker information, but it does not change the problem, unless you think frame data readers are fine because they somehow require more skill to use than trackers.
I haven't seen any combat in Ashes which requires frame to frame fighting. There's no synergies, no directional attacks and no active block last I saw. There certainly is no complexity in anything shown so far. Even the pve bosses have been tank and spank.
There are active blocks and direction attacks, dodges (skill) it is shown in the last AoC combat stream.
I haven't seen any combat in Ashes which requires frame to frame fighting. There's no synergies, no directional attacks and no active block last I saw. There certainly is no complexity in anything shown so far. Even the pve bosses have been tank and spank.
The last Basic Melee livestream showed us that they are testing Active Block and there was a backdash on Fighter that would not even be allowed in most fighting games due to being too broken in terms of its frame data.
If they keep going in this direction, Ashes will be more frame data heavy than literally any game I know except Under Night.
This has nothing to do with trackers in mmorpgs with the information you get from them. This is a false comparison as I've said again and again.
But you don't care you need to try to rework things in how you want, which is not reality.
I agree that it's a false comparison up to a point, so let me ask you this instead.
If Ashes is supposed to be Action Combat skill, and it starts to matter in Ashes because of how action Combat works (it matters in BDO, the community has been arguing about the frame data for Sorceress for years) will you have the same perspective on frame data readers as on Trackers?
This is the thing I'm trying to understand. Action Combat means that you need MORE frame data information and less Combat Tracker information, but it does not change the problem, unless you think frame data readers are fine because they somehow require more skill to use than trackers.
I honestly don't care about frame data at all or who has access to it that is fine to me. Unsure what you are trying to get at here...
I have a issue when you are using trackers to read all information about skills and abilities from mobs and other players in form of a tracker which is beyond a combat log.
Two different things all together to me.
Also Sorceress is stupid no class (game) needs iframes like that remove them. That isn't a fight.
I doubt it'll be more frame heavy than BDO. A back dash means nothing against a ranged toon. Active block could mean nothing in a massed battle. Until I see complexity I won't consider frame to frame fighting to be needed at all.
I wont rate active block until I see Bard and see the buffs. The last active block was a wall conjured by the tank class and that did sweet fuck all. Admittedly, it went against Mage levitate which has since been removed.
This has nothing to do with trackers in mmorpgs with the information you get from them. This is a false comparison as I've said again and again.
But you don't care you need to try to rework things in how you want, which is not reality.
I agree that it's a false comparison up to a point, so let me ask you this instead.
If Ashes is supposed to be Action Combat skill, and it starts to matter in Ashes because of how action Combat works (it matters in BDO, the community has been arguing about the frame data for Sorceress for years) will you have the same perspective on frame data readers as on Trackers?
This is the thing I'm trying to understand. Action Combat means that you need MORE frame data information and less Combat Tracker information, but it does not change the problem, unless you think frame data readers are fine because they somehow require more skill to use than trackers.
I honestly don't care about frame data at all or who has access to it that is fine to me. Unsure what you are trying to get at here...
I have a issue when you are using trackers to read all information about skills and abilities from mobs and other players in form of a tracker which is beyond a combat log.
Two different things all together to me.
Also Sorceress is stupid no class (game) needs iframes like that remove them. That isn't a fight.
Ok, now I completely concede that I understand your points all this time.
If you don't care about people having Frame Data in Ashes, then what you have been saying is completely consistent and I apologize for every time I have derailed you from representing your perspective with my insistence on trying to equate your dislike of Trackers with a dislike of 'information that players use to improve their combat after the fact'.
I know you don't care if I'm cool with you or not, but I promise to bother you less, now that I know this.
I doubt it'll be more frame heavy than BDO. A back dash means nothing against a ranged toon. Active block could mean nothing in a massed battle. Until I see complexity I won't consider frame to frame fighting to be needed at all.
I wont rate active block until I see Bard and see the buffs. The last active block was a wall conjured by the tank class and that did sweet fuck all. Admittedly, it went against Mage levitate which has since been removed.
Nah, we're talking about 'Fighter held up a sword against an attack and mitigated damage from the attack and then recovered from block stance', and 'fighter used a backdash that moved them 8 character widths in 5 frames and recovered for another 25 frames' which is enough to dodge almost ANYTHING honestly.
Have you not seen that video at all?
EDIT: Here, it's at 6:45, the glorious backdash. I remember having the 'WTF' reaction followed by the Thor 'Yessss!' meme.
This has nothing to do with trackers in mmorpgs with the information you get from them. This is a false comparison as I've said again and again.
But you don't care you need to try to rework things in how you want, which is not reality.
I agree that it's a false comparison up to a point, so let me ask you this instead.
If Ashes is supposed to be Action Combat skill, and it starts to matter in Ashes because of how action Combat works (it matters in BDO, the community has been arguing about the frame data for Sorceress for years) will you have the same perspective on frame data readers as on Trackers?
This is the thing I'm trying to understand. Action Combat means that you need MORE frame data information and less Combat Tracker information, but it does not change the problem, unless you think frame data readers are fine because they somehow require more skill to use than trackers.
I honestly don't care about frame data at all or who has access to it that is fine to me. Unsure what you are trying to get at here...
I have a issue when you are using trackers to read all information about skills and abilities from mobs and other players in form of a tracker which is beyond a combat log.
Two different things all together to me.
Also Sorceress is stupid no class (game) needs iframes like that remove them. That isn't a fight.
Ok, now I completely concede that I understand your points all this time.
If you don't care about people having Frame Data in Ashes, then what you have been saying is completely consistent and I apologize for every time I have derailed you from representing your perspective with my insistence on trying to equate your dislike of Trackers with a dislike of 'information that players use to improve their combat after the fact'.
I know you don't care if I'm cool with you or not, but I promise to bother you less, now that I know this.
Its fine I'm not stressed about it, if you want to understand my mind set I'm just highly competitive. I don't like advantages given in the form of tools. If trackers are really inevitable and their game design can't stop it id rather as long as possible for it not be ripe with them at first and see what the devs do, in making the game they want.
People that have skill, and ability to achieve what they want without assistance is just something that I have respect for. And why I can't get behind tools that "remove" a lot of the work to get there.
Though if combat is very akin to mmorpgs in the past and doesn't rely on any kind of bonus of action combat ya trackers will be effective and you may get a FF situation.
Also to the fighting game point with frames and such what I mean with experience with oen such example being. When I've had a fight (Previous soul calibur or maybe the one before that one) where you realized in that very game and very moment you KNOW aren't going to win after one or two rounds as you are or playing at that very moment. And through understanding of the game and understanding someone more skilled (even if you aren't fully aware of the exact frames of your moves) to be able to change your play style, use all moves in your kit at the right time and be able to beat them.
Unsure if you have experienced moments like that against people that don't feel like normal type players in the slightest. And being able to skillfully pull out a win and become better than you were instantly.
Random but i guess that is my tangent on that kind of frame stuff why sure knowing frames can help but there is still more to it then just knowing frame numbers in a battle, or being able to feel it and what you need to do to overcome their pressure.
Also to the fighting game point with frames and such what I mean with experience with oen such example being. When I've had a fight (Previous soul calibur or maybe the one before that one) where you realized in that very game and very moment you KNOW aren't going to win after one or two rounds as you are or playing at that very moment. And through understanding of the game and understanding someone more skilled (even if you aren't fully aware of the exact frames of your moves) to be able to change your play style, use all moves in your kit at the right time and be able to beat them.
Unsure if you have experienced moments like that against people that don't feel like normal type players in the slightest. And being able to skillfully pull out a win and become better than you were instantly.
Random but i guess that is my tangent on that kind of frame stuff why sure knowing frames can help but there is still more to it then just knowing frame numbers in a battle, or being able to feel it and what you need to do to overcome their pressure.
Normally I expect you to discredit or say I'm not skilled so I don't talk about this, since I don't want to get into an argument with you about it.
I am the type of skilled player who has reached the point where she can mostly only improve by knowing the Frame Data (either through experimentation or directly using the things provided by Training mode to check it).
Yes, there is 'more to it', but my experience is that you do reach a point where you have to know in order to see more options or you're just guessing. If you believe that it's better for people to just guess, I understand your perspective. I don't think they make Fighting Games like that anymore, but I'm not going to say 'no, you're wrong'.
I think I've been trying to tell you that good PvE feels like that too, but I understand your reasons for not believing me about that.
Also to the fighting game point with frames and such what I mean with experience with oen such example being. When I've had a fight (Previous soul calibur or maybe the one before that one) where you realized in that very game and very moment you KNOW aren't going to win after one or two rounds as you are or playing at that very moment. And through understanding of the game and understanding someone more skilled (even if you aren't fully aware of the exact frames of your moves) to be able to change your play style, use all moves in your kit at the right time and be able to beat them.
Unsure if you have experienced moments like that against people that don't feel like normal type players in the slightest. And being able to skillfully pull out a win and become better than you were instantly.
Random but i guess that is my tangent on that kind of frame stuff why sure knowing frames can help but there is still more to it then just knowing frame numbers in a battle, or being able to feel it and what you need to do to overcome their pressure.
Normally I expect you to discredit or say I'm not skilled so I don't talk about this, since I don't want to get into an argument with you about it.
I am the type of skilled player who has reached the point where she can mostly only improve by knowing the Frame Data (either through experimentation or directly using the things provided by Training mode to check it).
Yes, there is 'more to it', but my experience is that you do reach a point where you have to know in order to see more options or you're just guessing. If you believe that it's better for people to just guess, I understand your perspective. I don't think they make Fighting Games like that anymore, but I'm not going to say 'no, you're wrong'.
I think I've been trying to tell you that good PvE feels like that too, but I understand your reasons for not believing me about that.
Not going to say you are unskilled unless there is a comment I feel discrediting my own skill on a game. Which then the next option after that is to simply fight each other if it gets that far.
I have a issue when you are using trackers to read all information about skills and abilities from mobs and other players in form of a tracker which is beyond a combat log.
Exactly what information is it you think a tracker can read about skills?
Random but i guess that is my tangent on that kind of frame stuff why sure knowing frames can help but there is still more to it then just knowing frame numbers in a battle, or being able to feel it and what you need to do to overcome their pressure.
Same with information gained from a combat tracker.
It isnt going to make you instantly better. You still have situations like you explained where you are looking like you are going to lose and so you need to be good enough to change things up to overcome your opponent.
Knowledge of a game and skill in a game are complementary. Neither one can ever replace the other, but either one can enhance the other.
Bots are stopped by creating layered scenarios where they must anticipate a probabilistic sequence without sufficient training data. These days, that's the only way.
So smth like "if the boss had rune set X, you should do action 1 or 2; if the boss doesn't react to action 1 - do action 2". And those reactions could vary from some kind of movement to some form of visual dmg on the boss' body.
Would that work or is it still too simplistic? Cause I feel like you could still put in reactionary actions into the bot, and at the end of the day pretty much any player action is just a reaction to whatever the boss does.
Orrrrr, would pro-active actions work? As in, "players have to hit the boss with particular abilities which will result in one of several responses from the boss, which then determine what players gotta do next".
Btw, I came up with the perfect anti-tracker design! No stats! Only block and counter abilities, but on a huge variety scale. I imagined it as "rune-based". Mobs/bosses would have these kinds of circles on them
And players' abilities would be able to remove a single rune from the circle. The mob would die once the full circle is gone (bosses would have multiple).
Augments would add half a rune onto abilities and gear would add a half too (each piece its own). Half runes would be applied the same way a whole one would, so synergies between classes and gear builds would work just fine.
Tanks would be putting protective runes on people (cause mob/boss atks' have their own rune sets).
Bards would be creating buff rune sets (against environment hazards, auras, adds, etc) and would conjure anti-sets to prevent rune regeneration on targets.
Clerics would refresh those buffs to keep everyone alive.
DPS classes would have different sets of runes on their abilities, so you'd have good and bad matchups with different mobs (which could then be countered by augments and gear builds). Mobs would also regen their stuff at different speeds and have different amounts of particular sets, so the matchups could potentially be impossible for some raid setups.
The same rules would apply in pvp. Except the RPS balancing for classes would be even more pronounced, but also better countered by builds. Gear would be purely horizontal because of that and crafter would be able to add custom runes too.
In other words, the only things that would have to be changed in the game is the stats and this addition of runes. PvE would just be a visual puzzle, with no combat log feedback, so it and any trackers that might use it would be useless.
I look forward to your feedback on this definitely amazing idea, which I will read when I wake up And if there is in fact a way to utilize a tracker in that kind of system, I'd be glad to hear how (mainly so I could come up with a counter to that method ).
I already have a tracker for this type.
This is how the other FaceBook game I mentioned that I actually DID 'bot' worked mostly.
If the player can see the runes, my code can see it. If the code can see it, problem solved.
This would be moreso 'bottable' than 'parseable'.
lmk if you would like a code snippet.
And you clearly let everyone know you plan on making $$$ off the game in some way. . . jfc
@Ace1234 "Well- since we agree that skill should be rewarded, then the answer is no, that is not okay- because that lack of access to data is preventing that gap in player skill from players that will better leverage that data, and acquisition of said data is not tied to skill level to be able to compensate for this (due to its impossible nature for most people to naturally obtain)."
Data is accessible through experience. You can play a fighting game and figure out the windows/ animations to minute degree, for example. Down to the frame.
So there is a huge skill gap between those that can gain 'data' from experience and those that can't.
You can gain data from inputting a certain way, failing, then slightly altering what you're doing and getting through it. You can deduce that some window is smaller or larger, or something lasts longer, all from experience.
There's many ways to solve problems and gain knowledge from experience lol. . . and it creates a skill gap.
It's not intellectually dull either. You can literally compare your experiences, actions, and analyze them.
Orrrrr, would pro-active actions work? As in, "players have to hit the boss with particular abilities which will result in one of several responses from the boss, which then determine what players gotta do next".
This is closer to something that works in my experience.
A different way to think of this might be what I do for training mode in fighters.
Boss has Inputs A, B, C, D, E chosen completely randomly.
Boss will do something different when B follows A, than when B follows B. That gives you 25 options.
But let's say that whatever follows BB takes so long that it 'skips a count'. So you can only see BB twice in a row if it 'selected B four times'.
Then add some player inputs in terms of what abilities they hit with. You can do it by expanding it to FGHI, or just 'if you hit the boss a certain way while it's selecting B it will change B to A'. So you could 'make sure that the boss only chooses AA, AB, AC, AD, AE, BUT you could only do this if you 'knew it was going to select B' or 'did the ability because you saw it use CA and know that AB will kill you but AA wouldn't' (while still having to worry about AC, AD, AE).
A human will adapt to this using their intent, status of the team, and teamwork, in a different way than most bots will, but still not be in a situation where they have no control and zero predictability, nor (if you found this to be negative) in a situation where 'absolute randomness whenever' was possible.
In this situation a Tracker would do much less for you in terms of 'figuring out the boss' because you would already know the odds of any specific thing happening (they're all about 1 in 25 and you can reduce them through your own actions when your abilities to influence it aren't on cooldown, to get it down to 1 in 5).
But now the player's side is constantly finding having to find new ways to adapt to whatever is happening, and the Tracker is only doing what I (personally) am used to it being for. Allowing the player to look back at a specific point in a long fight and think "Oh, I could have done this better even considering the randomness", or of course 'Dammit Carl, you missed the proc six times this fight, you know you're supposed to leave the adds to someone else when EB is happening' (some people need a tracker for this, some don't).
Devs could then 'lower the odds of CA, technically, by making it so that CB and CC take so long that any CA following it never does CA'. Maybe if it's like, a dragon, CCC causes it to do an extra long breath blast, etc etc.
Then just set whatever win conditions you like and change 'damage' to be 'something that affects the selection'.instead of 'something that kills the boss'. Cooldowns alone would generally mean that you need the same number of people anyway, but now you've removed that visible 'Input->Output' part of the Runes thing.
Another useful part of it in Ashes (for example) is that you COULD theoretically spawn a boss with a different subset of A, B, C, D, E each time, and the combinations change, without players having to literally guess every moment. e.g. if you see Ice Breath, you know that at least two of the boss' 'slots' are 'Push' and 'Ice', so you can immediately start guessing/adapting to what the rest of their kit will be (this has nothing to do with bots, they would do that too, this is just a bonus).
Data is accessible through experience. You can play a fighting game and figure out the windows/ animations to minute degree, for example. Down to the frame.
So there is a huge skill gap between those that can gain 'data' from experience and those that can't.
You can gain data from inputting a certain way, failing, then slightly altering what you're doing and getting through it. You can deduce that some window is smaller or larger, or something lasts longer, all from experience.
There's many ways to solve problems and gain knowledge from experience lol. . . and it creates a skill gap.
It's not intellectually dull either. You can literally compare your experiences, actions, and analyze them.
I understand and agree this can be done to a certain degree-
Maybe I am just missing something, but how would you be able to get conclusive data if you have no baseline or reference point? There could always be variation on the opponent's end that can throw off your judgement, such as when the action was inputed. Since there is no way to know that, it would give you false info that you base your own moves on, so you would never have a way of figuring that out through experience 100%.
Data is accessible through experience. You can play a fighting game and figure out the windows/ animations to minute degree, for example. Down to the frame.
So there is a huge skill gap between those that can gain 'data' from experience and those that can't.
You can gain data from inputting a certain way, failing, then slightly altering what you're doing and getting through it. You can deduce that some window is smaller or larger, or something lasts longer, all from experience.
There's many ways to solve problems and gain knowledge from experience lol. . . and it creates a skill gap.
It's not intellectually dull either. You can literally compare your experiences, actions, and analyze them.
I understand and agree this can be done to a certain degree-
Maybe I am just missing something, but how would you be able to get conclusive data if you have no baseline or reference point? There could always be variation on the opponent's end that can throw off your judgement, such as when the action was inputed. Since there is no way to know that, it would give you false info that you base your own moves on, so you would never have a way of figuring that out through experience 100%.
The moves are basically static in every game. So are one's own. A person's sense of time can be very tight. 1/60th of a second tight. Tighter. That's just how it is.
I get it, obviously you can use the results of an interaction between two moves to deduce the properties of a move.
Im saying that for the comparison to be legitimate you have to isolate those 2 moves as factors.
How can you do that when there is variation, down a single frame, for when someone is inputing a move. You may be comparing moves that were input at different times, giving you wrong info. Yes you can get a general idea based on the timing of when you would expect someone to input a move and comparing that timing of how long it takes for your own moves to respond after an input. This will never be a consistent way of judging down to a single frame. Its just impossible for most humans to distinguish between individual frames through feeling.
I get it, obviously you can use the results of an interaction between two moves to deduce the properties of a move.
Im saying that for the comparison to be legitimate you have to isolate those 2 moves as factors.
How can you do that when there is variation, down a single frame, for when someone is inputing a move. You may be comparing moves that were input at different times, giving you wrong info. Yes you can get a general idea based on the timing of when you would expect someone to input a move and comparing that timing of how long it takes for your own moves to respond after an input. This will never be a consistent way of judging down to a single frame. Its just impossible for most humans to distinguish between individual frames through feeling.
You are asking how someone can focus on the interaction of two characters down to the frame in a highly repetitious and basically static game.
You do not know much about what is possible or impossible.
Human click reaction time can consistently hit .1 second (1/10). Perception alone is easily quicker.
Here is a random guy at his desk using an online test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH0Kh7WQM7w
I otherwise do not know what you are trying to say about inputs.
1. You can judge a moves properties based on its interaction with another move.
2. There are more factors than just the move itself that can throw off your judgement based on that interaction, because the interaction will be different depending on those factors, causing variation in your relativity-based judgments
3. The lack of knowing "when" an input was made is such a factor, causing an unequal comparison
4. If you could reverse engineer each move by testing your input vs when it happens in the screen for a given move, then that would help with isolating the moves themselves, by knkwing when a move is inputed to make your comparison between 2 moves during an interaction.
5. There is no way to do this down to a single frame. You can click an input and see when your move happens on the screen to get a general idea of that window, but this would require more precision than the example video you provided to "feel" this window. Thats not to mention the fact that you wouldn't be able to further disect that window to distinguish between input delay/move startup frames/etc.
6. This means you wouldn't be able to reverse engineer a move to know exactly how many frames it takes for a move to startup, therefor you would never know when a move was actually inputed whem comparing 2 moves during an interaction. Therefore any info gained based on said interaction will have variation relative to when that move was inputed, meaning you won't have consistent relative results to judge your own move's properties.
Unless I am missing something, feel free to explain how this would not be the case.
I haven't seen any combat in Ashes which requires frame to frame fighting. There's no synergies, no directional attacks and no active block last I saw. There certainly is no complexity in anything shown so far. Even the pve bosses have been tank and spank.
Hard to say right now, an active block is in the game, cause in the melee showcase, it was shown to us. Alpha one wasn't a test of combat and systems, it was really a network test. Combat at this point is likely totally different. Friday will tell us a lot for sure.
1. You can judge a moves properties based on its interaction with another move.
2. There are more factors than just the move itself that can throw off your judgement based on that interaction, because the interaction will be different depending on those factors, causing variation in your relativity-based judgments
3. The lack of knowing "when" an input was made is such a factor, causing an unequal comparison
4. If you could reverse engineer each move by testing your input vs when it happens in the screen for a given move, then that would help with isolating the moves themselves, by knkwing when a move is inputed to make your comparison between 2 moves during an interaction.
5. There is no way to do this down to a single frame. You can click an input and see when your move happens on the screen to get a general idea of that window, but this would require more precision than the example video you provided to "feel" this window. Thats not to mention the fact that you wouldn't be able to further disect that window to distinguish between input delay/move startup frames/etc.
6. This means you wouldn't be able to reverse engineer a move to know exactly how many frames it takes for a move to startup, therefor you would never know when a move was actually inputed whem comparing 2 moves during an interaction. Therefore any info gained based on said interaction will have variation relative to when that move was inputed, meaning you won't have consistent relative results to judge your own move's properties.
Unless I am missing something, feel free to explain how this would not be the case.
just showed you .1 second click reaction time and perception is much faster than that. 60 fps = 10 fps x 6.
You are saying people can't see singular frames on 60 fps.
People can slow things down (to them) and experience the frames lol
People can see the variations of successes and failures. You just play the game and get good.
For that particular premise I could agree then that perceptive skill could be better fostered without the data.
But, I can't automatically say im in favor of having a greater reward for those who have naturally better perceptive capabilities, than those who don't, because of the implications that the other types of game skills are reliant upon those perceptive capabilities, that not all people may have.
The lack of perceptive skill in that area could deny access to information certain players who could better leverage that information than someone else, but be denied that skill-expression due to the difference in perceptive abilities. My personal preference for skill-checks, is in player decision-making. Based on this I can't say I would want the skill-check on perceptive ability to be so large that only a very small percentage of players could properly be tested on their decision making skills, which I personally would prefer to have at the forefront. This is preference so im not saying you are wrong, just that I disagree.
That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. I do think perceptive skill, especially situational awareness, should be rewarded. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game.
- regardless of how we feel about that particular aspect- whether that particular premise alone, in favor of providing players with certain data, is enough to outweigh the others outlined ealier, is another issue.
Comments
But you don't care you need to try to rework things in how you want, which is not reality.
Yes I understand that you believe that, and I'm asking you just one thing.
I can make it so that when you block, SOMETIMES you should use your fastest move to defend yourself, and sometimes you should not use it or I will be guaranteed to do 1/3 of your health in damage, and the only way you will know which of those things happened is if you can somehow figure out which Active Frame of MY move hit, within 1/3 of a second.
I would like to understand how YOU do this, and how you believe a person is supposed to do this. Remember, I, the attacker, am controlling which thing happens in some VERY subtle way. If you would like a video I can provide it. Or to rephrase it as a multiple choice question if you will humor me, here are the answers I can think of:
a) That is impossible to do, for the attacker, because that's not how fighting games work. (this is the trick answer, don't pick this one, because I can prove it is how they work)
b) That is bad design if the attacker can ever do this in an ambiguous way
c) People can just tell one frame difference at the moment it happens
d) I have never played a game like that and I would need to think about it more
e) Other (Please Specify)
I don't wanna derail here, but you keep saying I'm manipulative or dishonest and I would like to clear THAT up with you at least.
You should be able to feel the frames of the move and the speed. If you have been hit by it before you simply use a faster move and should be able to tell the speed as a gauge mid fight.
It is pretty obvious what moves you have are fast when you know your command list. Without this you aren't going to be able to throw people off that are trying to predict block your attacks based on frames they expect.
Which in a actual fight against skilled players this is a different fight, compared to normal players that the person blocks and predicts their movements based on the frames they expect which can lead into you getting countered with a opening.
None of this has anything to do with mmorpgs btw. If a mmorpg had combat this complex trackers for mmorpgs would mean nothing it would be all skill. Wouldn't matter if you know dmg, what was coming, hp, etc. Skilled player wins every fight.
I agree that it's a false comparison up to a point, so let me ask you this instead.
If Ashes is supposed to be Action Combat skill, and it starts to matter in Ashes because of how action Combat works (it matters in BDO, the community has been arguing about the frame data for Sorceress for years) will you have the same perspective on frame data readers as on Trackers?
This is the thing I'm trying to understand. Action Combat means that you need MORE frame data information and less Combat Tracker information, but it does not change the problem, unless you think frame data readers are fine because they somehow require more skill to use than trackers.
There are active blocks and direction attacks, dodges (skill) it is shown in the last AoC combat stream.
The last Basic Melee livestream showed us that they are testing Active Block and there was a backdash on Fighter that would not even be allowed in most fighting games due to being too broken in terms of its frame data.
If they keep going in this direction, Ashes will be more frame data heavy than literally any game I know except Under Night.
I honestly don't care about frame data at all or who has access to it that is fine to me. Unsure what you are trying to get at here...
I have a issue when you are using trackers to read all information about skills and abilities from mobs and other players in form of a tracker which is beyond a combat log.
Two different things all together to me.
Also Sorceress is stupid no class (game) needs iframes like that remove them. That isn't a fight.
I wont rate active block until I see Bard and see the buffs. The last active block was a wall conjured by the tank class and that did sweet fuck all. Admittedly, it went against Mage levitate which has since been removed.
Ok, now I completely concede that I understand your points all this time.
If you don't care about people having Frame Data in Ashes, then what you have been saying is completely consistent and I apologize for every time I have derailed you from representing your perspective with my insistence on trying to equate your dislike of Trackers with a dislike of 'information that players use to improve their combat after the fact'.
I know you don't care if I'm cool with you or not, but I promise to bother you less, now that I know this.
Nah, we're talking about 'Fighter held up a sword against an attack and mitigated damage from the attack and then recovered from block stance', and 'fighter used a backdash that moved them 8 character widths in 5 frames and recovered for another 25 frames' which is enough to dodge almost ANYTHING honestly.
Have you not seen that video at all?
EDIT: Here, it's at 6:45, the glorious backdash. I remember having the 'WTF' reaction followed by the Thor 'Yessss!' meme.
Its fine I'm not stressed about it, if you want to understand my mind set I'm just highly competitive. I don't like advantages given in the form of tools. If trackers are really inevitable and their game design can't stop it id rather as long as possible for it not be ripe with them at first and see what the devs do, in making the game they want.
People that have skill, and ability to achieve what they want without assistance is just something that I have respect for. And why I can't get behind tools that "remove" a lot of the work to get there.
Though if combat is very akin to mmorpgs in the past and doesn't rely on any kind of bonus of action combat ya trackers will be effective and you may get a FF situation.
Unsure if you have experienced moments like that against people that don't feel like normal type players in the slightest. And being able to skillfully pull out a win and become better than you were instantly.
Random but i guess that is my tangent on that kind of frame stuff why sure knowing frames can help but there is still more to it then just knowing frame numbers in a battle, or being able to feel it and what you need to do to overcome their pressure.
Normally I expect you to discredit or say I'm not skilled so I don't talk about this, since I don't want to get into an argument with you about it.
I am the type of skilled player who has reached the point where she can mostly only improve by knowing the Frame Data (either through experimentation or directly using the things provided by Training mode to check it).
Yes, there is 'more to it', but my experience is that you do reach a point where you have to know in order to see more options or you're just guessing. If you believe that it's better for people to just guess, I understand your perspective. I don't think they make Fighting Games like that anymore, but I'm not going to say 'no, you're wrong'.
I think I've been trying to tell you that good PvE feels like that too, but I understand your reasons for not believing me about that.
Not going to say you are unskilled unless there is a comment I feel discrediting my own skill on a game. Which then the next option after that is to simply fight each other if it gets that far.
Exactly what information is it you think a tracker can read about skills?
It isnt going to make you instantly better. You still have situations like you explained where you are looking like you are going to lose and so you need to be good enough to change things up to overcome your opponent.
Knowledge of a game and skill in a game are complementary. Neither one can ever replace the other, but either one can enhance the other.
Would that work or is it still too simplistic? Cause I feel like you could still put in reactionary actions into the bot, and at the end of the day pretty much any player action is just a reaction to whatever the boss does.
Orrrrr, would pro-active actions work? As in, "players have to hit the boss with particular abilities which will result in one of several responses from the boss, which then determine what players gotta do next".
And you clearly let everyone know you plan on making $$$ off the game in some way. . . jfc
"Well- since we agree that skill should be rewarded, then the answer is no, that is not okay- because that lack of access to data is preventing that gap in player skill from players that will better leverage that data, and acquisition of said data is not tied to skill level to be able to compensate for this (due to its impossible nature for most people to naturally obtain)."
Data is accessible through experience. You can play a fighting game and figure out the windows/ animations to minute degree, for example. Down to the frame.
So there is a huge skill gap between those that can gain 'data' from experience and those that can't.
You can gain data from inputting a certain way, failing, then slightly altering what you're doing and getting through it. You can deduce that some window is smaller or larger, or something lasts longer, all from experience.
There's many ways to solve problems and gain knowledge from experience lol. . . and it creates a skill gap.
It's not intellectually dull either. You can literally compare your experiences, actions, and analyze them.
This is closer to something that works in my experience.
A different way to think of this might be what I do for training mode in fighters.
Boss has Inputs A, B, C, D, E chosen completely randomly.
Boss will do something different when B follows A, than when B follows B. That gives you 25 options.
But let's say that whatever follows BB takes so long that it 'skips a count'. So you can only see BB twice in a row if it 'selected B four times'.
Then add some player inputs in terms of what abilities they hit with. You can do it by expanding it to FGHI, or just 'if you hit the boss a certain way while it's selecting B it will change B to A'. So you could 'make sure that the boss only chooses AA, AB, AC, AD, AE, BUT you could only do this if you 'knew it was going to select B' or 'did the ability because you saw it use CA and know that AB will kill you but AA wouldn't' (while still having to worry about AC, AD, AE).
A human will adapt to this using their intent, status of the team, and teamwork, in a different way than most bots will, but still not be in a situation where they have no control and zero predictability, nor (if you found this to be negative) in a situation where 'absolute randomness whenever' was possible.
In this situation a Tracker would do much less for you in terms of 'figuring out the boss' because you would already know the odds of any specific thing happening (they're all about 1 in 25 and you can reduce them through your own actions when your abilities to influence it aren't on cooldown, to get it down to 1 in 5).
But now the player's side is constantly finding having to find new ways to adapt to whatever is happening, and the Tracker is only doing what I (personally) am used to it being for. Allowing the player to look back at a specific point in a long fight and think "Oh, I could have done this better even considering the randomness", or of course 'Dammit Carl, you missed the proc six times this fight, you know you're supposed to leave the adds to someone else when EB is happening' (some people need a tracker for this, some don't).
Devs could then 'lower the odds of CA, technically, by making it so that CB and CC take so long that any CA following it never does CA'. Maybe if it's like, a dragon, CCC causes it to do an extra long breath blast, etc etc.
Then just set whatever win conditions you like and change 'damage' to be 'something that affects the selection'.instead of 'something that kills the boss'. Cooldowns alone would generally mean that you need the same number of people anyway, but now you've removed that visible 'Input->Output' part of the Runes thing.
Another useful part of it in Ashes (for example) is that you COULD theoretically spawn a boss with a different subset of A, B, C, D, E each time, and the combinations change, without players having to literally guess every moment. e.g. if you see Ice Breath, you know that at least two of the boss' 'slots' are 'Push' and 'Ice', so you can immediately start guessing/adapting to what the rest of their kit will be (this has nothing to do with bots, they would do that too, this is just a bonus).
I understand and agree this can be done to a certain degree-
Maybe I am just missing something, but how would you be able to get conclusive data if you have no baseline or reference point? There could always be variation on the opponent's end that can throw off your judgement, such as when the action was inputed. Since there is no way to know that, it would give you false info that you base your own moves on, so you would never have a way of figuring that out through experience 100%.
The moves are basically static in every game. So are one's own. A person's sense of time can be very tight. 1/60th of a second tight. Tighter. That's just how it is.
BURN
I get it, obviously you can use the results of an interaction between two moves to deduce the properties of a move.
Im saying that for the comparison to be legitimate you have to isolate those 2 moves as factors.
How can you do that when there is variation, down a single frame, for when someone is inputing a move. You may be comparing moves that were input at different times, giving you wrong info. Yes you can get a general idea based on the timing of when you would expect someone to input a move and comparing that timing of how long it takes for your own moves to respond after an input. This will never be a consistent way of judging down to a single frame. Its just impossible for most humans to distinguish between individual frames through feeling.
You are asking how someone can focus on the interaction of two characters down to the frame in a highly repetitious and basically static game.
You do not know much about what is possible or impossible.
Human click reaction time can consistently hit .1 second (1/10). Perception alone is easily quicker.
Here is a random guy at his desk using an online test:
I otherwise do not know what you are trying to say about inputs.
So basically I am saying
1. You can judge a moves properties based on its interaction with another move.
2. There are more factors than just the move itself that can throw off your judgement based on that interaction, because the interaction will be different depending on those factors, causing variation in your relativity-based judgments
3. The lack of knowing "when" an input was made is such a factor, causing an unequal comparison
4. If you could reverse engineer each move by testing your input vs when it happens in the screen for a given move, then that would help with isolating the moves themselves, by knkwing when a move is inputed to make your comparison between 2 moves during an interaction.
5. There is no way to do this down to a single frame. You can click an input and see when your move happens on the screen to get a general idea of that window, but this would require more precision than the example video you provided to "feel" this window. Thats not to mention the fact that you wouldn't be able to further disect that window to distinguish between input delay/move startup frames/etc.
6. This means you wouldn't be able to reverse engineer a move to know exactly how many frames it takes for a move to startup, therefor you would never know when a move was actually inputed whem comparing 2 moves during an interaction. Therefore any info gained based on said interaction will have variation relative to when that move was inputed, meaning you won't have consistent relative results to judge your own move's properties.
Unless I am missing something, feel free to explain how this would not be the case.
Hard to say right now, an active block is in the game, cause in the melee showcase, it was shown to us. Alpha one wasn't a test of combat and systems, it was really a network test. Combat at this point is likely totally different. Friday will tell us a lot for sure.
just showed you .1 second click reaction time and perception is much faster than that. 60 fps = 10 fps x 6.
You are saying people can't see singular frames on 60 fps.
People can slow things down (to them) and experience the frames lol
People can see the variations of successes and failures. You just play the game and get good.
Fair enough.
For that particular premise I could agree then that perceptive skill could be better fostered without the data.
But, I can't automatically say im in favor of having a greater reward for those who have naturally better perceptive capabilities, than those who don't, because of the implications that the other types of game skills are reliant upon those perceptive capabilities, that not all people may have.
The lack of perceptive skill in that area could deny access to information certain players who could better leverage that information than someone else, but be denied that skill-expression due to the difference in perceptive abilities. My personal preference for skill-checks, is in player decision-making. Based on this I can't say I would want the skill-check on perceptive ability to be so large that only a very small percentage of players could properly be tested on their decision making skills, which I personally would prefer to have at the forefront. This is preference so im not saying you are wrong, just that I disagree.
That is assuming there is a choice that needs to be made. I do think perceptive skill, especially situational awareness, should be rewarded. You could have both skill-checks which would be ideal in my opinion. This would require simply toning down the perceptive based skill-checks to a more accessible level to not require frame perfect perceptive awareness to gather the data required for improving in other areas of the game.
- regardless of how we feel about that particular aspect- whether that particular premise alone, in favor of providing players with certain data, is enough to outweigh the others outlined ealier, is another issue.