You shouldn't be able to copy paste your log, or store it in a text format.
It would take 30 minutes to find an appropriate text recognition software from Github and point it to your combat log - then point ACT to the file it creates.
Package this up in to a one click solution, have it connect to a server, break the server off in to groups (ie, when you join a group in game, you automatically join the log group on this server). This server combines the logs from all players in the group, and spits out a combined log to run in ACT.
With this setup, you can even have it so that you get a notification if you are going to invite someone to your group that isn't logged in to this server, so that you know not to invite them. This means the discussion as to whether they are using this or not doesn't need to even happen in game, and those not using it will just find that they don't get as many invites to content.
I'm assuming this does this as you are playing?
You put in their name into the system before you invite them. This doesn't interact with the game.
If you find no logs for the person in the system, you just don't invite them. This is what happens in FFXIV.
I mean like can this read your log real time while you are playing the game is my question?
It's been explained a few times that no one cares about realtime logs at the level we are talking about BUT.
Yes, it can. And it does not do this by interacting with the game client, it does this by recording the gameplay OR a more convoluted method that is basically also recording gameplay but isn't detectable (because it's too customizable to detect)
There are ways around this if they really wanted to and do it in a way that the tracker wouldn't be able to get good information. While also still showing the number clearly when you damage a mob.
But this is getting into the much smaller subset of people doing it rather than the norm.
This is not true, I will go right ahead and explain why.
I can write a script that, at the 'hardware' level, takes a 'screenshot' of a part of my screen that I specify every time a specific thing happens. That can be 'every X frames', 'every time I press ANY button or move my mouse', etc.
This can save the 'screenshot', but it doesn't have to, it just stores the image information in the program I'm running (which, again, I can write myself, it's easy, and while you could probably detect it, you could not 'prove what it is doing is related to Ashes' in any way).
This image information then gets fed into the Character Recognition code/software in a multitude of extremely easy ways OR...
I write even simpler code to do the 'Character Recognition' (this is my usual preference because it's easier and takes less processing).
Logs are now read from the game real time as it is played. Now, the obvious concept from there would be 'well that would create a program that Intrepid could detect because of some other stuff'. No, you'd just have it write the results to the text file.
See the problem? I ran a script that 'reads a small part of my screen for an image, and puts the text from that into a text file' or WORSE, NOT a text file (because then you can't check for any evidence of the text while Ashes is running even if you had super-surveillance).
A person doing this is not going to be the sort of person who calls this program 'AoCScreen2Log_ver2.sh'.
If they can detect things they very well could take action even if the name of text file is not obvious but they can pick something up.
I'm not doubting what you can do, there are people that made hundreds of thousands of bots on lost ark and found ways around to exploit for awhile and still now I'm sure.
But you are going through so many loops at this point not just in reading the information but having to decipher the information as well so it makes sense to put it on a tracker. (this is where the combat log does its math different than the number on the screen). Then trying to decipher everyone stuff base don different key bindings and the issues you will run into it will make it such a hassle most people won't be doing that at all.
On top of having skill based gameplay where people have less care for trackers and simply use combat log to min max some of their damage.
There will be less need or desire for trackers.
I agree with what you are saying, but the only way to make ANY display that my code can't read is to make it so that a HUMAN can't read it.
You think of this as going through loops. I'm telling you that this code is not only easy, it doesn't even require understanding of it to run.
As for deciphering the information, I'll give you an example.
"Azherae used Castigation. The Desert Scorpion took 189 points of damage."
^(?P<player>.+?) used (?P<ability>.+?)\. (?P<enemy>.+?) takes (?P<damage>[0-9,]+) points of damage\.$
This is the regex required to parse that line.
You could give me a text file with 1 million lines. I will type ONE line into a command prompt containing the above and it will give me output of all abilities used by all players in the log on all enemies including other players and damage done, in a file, in less than ten seconds on my current computer.
It is EASIER to parse logs now than it is to install a parser.
If you are suggesting 'the Combat Log should just lie to players then', I accept your point. There isn't much the average player can do if the developer tries to avoid parsers by just straight up misrepresenting the information in the game's UI.
But as the spartans didn't quite ever actually say...
"If they can detect things they very well could take action even if the name of text file is not obvious but they can pick something up."
"If."
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people).
The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design.
If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly.
Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters.
Hostile Architecture
You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture.
But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work.
For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'.
None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players.
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
When you are against PvE Pressure, reduced level power scaling, reduced XP to Max, more weighty resource management, XP on Use it seems, extra PvP, deeper action combat. . . against everything that increases skill ceiling. . .
Yeah what is anyone suppose to believe. Your bullshit or your opinion?
PvE pressure is just a way to design content, which would lead the game to be far more PvE that what the project is.
I said i would love it. but your memory seems to forget that. I would love it, but i won't defend it for AoC because ... this is not the game for it.
Level powerscaling : as pen and paper DM and player... i prefer system around leveling (DD/pathfinder are great example, but also savage world) that system about skill-leveling (the system named basic is the most common for this)... Those are 2 different kind of system... and i play both.
I am fine with level being a big part of strength, so goes stuff for RPG (including so... MMORPG) i don't see any problem with it... i will get weaker that the most dedicated player just for this, even those with less skill and i honestly don't see the problem...
Weight management : i enforce this on my table, and my players tend to dislike it, i changed few thing to make better and still not enough... this is not a fun design, it fits only for survival games. So... clearly not a thing i want on a good MMORPG.
XP on use : cf over. a design choice, it is a nice way really, but not the one i prefer (plottwist : i support another MMORPG on which ... no level, but skill-leveling on use... )
Deepercombat action / Extra PvP : where did i complain about it ? I mean, my 2 favoured gameplay on MMORPG are Aion (tab targetting) and... BNS (action)... And a game with one or other i am perfectly fine with it. For the PvP side... if i complain one of your idea will push too much the PvE side of the game... it is maybe because i want a good balance between PvP and PvE ? ...
Skill Ceiling... i consider the best way to design a video game is the "easy to learn, hard to master" that was once the way t odo for blizzard and seems now the way to do for riot. So i am perfectly fine with it. Except i dislike the anicancel system (and i am fine with the weaving). but again here is a personnal choice. I prefer when the character is engaged and locked in its animation... so the bad choice of skill could be fatal, while anicancel is for me, just a smashing with short timing... relying less on decision making, and more on the speed.
But never forget the "easy to learn part" ... your ideas feels for me often far from this... Hard to learn hard to master is not a good way to gather a large crowd. elitism is in fact the worst way to gather a decent community, you will need lot of people that don't care about complexity and just want to enjoy simple things in the game (again, the "game over" idea, and the "pve pressure" would repel such player)
But, the real problem for you is that i don't think as you think... you consider to have the truth, but you have one truth... only one amongst many other. And because you are so sure of your opinion, you are blind to other's opinion and do shortcut about what they say things. . .
You can't even understand why i love data analysis and could love to spend time on it before using information gathered thru data analysis to train again...
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people).
The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design.
If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly.
Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters.
Hostile Architecture
You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture.
But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work.
For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'.
None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players.
Are you saying obfuscation of information beyond representation of a Glancing Blow, Hit, et cetera would make the game unplayable?
That having a visual indication of damage or a creature being 'wounded', less battle effective, less mobile. . . whatever is not enough?
Or you just think it's not enough to stop tools?
What about grounded mechanics? Yes advanced AI exists. Do you want Ashes of Creation to be a low barrier to entry market?
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. I have a decent understanding of action combat and if you're stopping to look at a cold recap, you're just not "in the game". You're not in it. No fire. You don't get it.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people).
The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design.
If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly.
Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters.
Hostile Architecture
You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture.
But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work.
For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'.
None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players.
Are you saying obfuscation of information beyond representation of a Glancing Blow, Hit, et cetera would make the game unplayable?
That having a visual indication of damage or a creature being 'wounded', less battle effective, less mobile. . . whatever is not enough?
No. Not saying that. Don't care personally.
I play BDO on Console.
I just also could write a script to parse damage on BDO Console from a video of it if I wanted to.
So that's what I'm saying. I agree that you can implement Hostile Architecture. I do not agree that it would prevent me from writing the Scripts.
When you are against PvE Pressure, reduced level power scaling, reduced XP to Max, more weighty resource management, XP on Use it seems, extra PvP, deeper action combat. . . against everything that increases skill ceiling. . .
Yeah what is anyone suppose to believe. Your bullshit or your opinion?
PvE pressure is just a way to design content, which would lead the game to be far more PvE that what the project is.
I said i would love it. but your memory seems to forget that. I would love it, but i won't defend it for AoC because ... this is not the game for it.
Level powerscaling : as pen and paper DM and player... i prefer system around leveling (DD/pathfinder are great example, but also savage world) that system about skill-leveling (the system named basic is the most common for this)... Those are 2 different kind of system... and i play both.
I am fine with level being a big part of strength, so goes stuff for RPG (including so... MMORPG) i don't see any problem with it... i will get weaker that the most dedicated player just for this, even those with less skill and i honestly don't see the problem...
Weight management : i enforce this on my table, and my players tend to dislike it, i changed few thing to make better and still not enough... this is not a fun design, it fits only for survival games. So... clearly not a thing i want on a good MMORPG.
XP on use : cf over. a design choice, it is a nice way really, but not the one i prefer (plottwist : i support another MMORPG on which ... no level, but skill-leveling on use... )
Deepercombat action / Extra PvP : where did i complain about it ? I mean, my 2 favoured gameplay on MMORPG are Aion (tab targetting) and... BNS (action)... And a game with one or other i am perfectly fine with it. For the PvP side... if i complain one of your idea will push too much the PvE side of the game... it is maybe because i want a good balance between PvP and PvE ? ...
Skill Ceiling... i consider the best way to design a video game is the "easy to learn, hard to master" that was once the way t odo for blizzard and seems now the way to do for riot. So i am perfectly fine with it. Except i dislike the anicancel system (and i am fine with the weaving). but again here is a personnal choice. I prefer when the character is engaged and locked in its animation... so the bad choice of skill could be fatal, while anicancel is for me, just a smashing with short timing... relying less on decision making, and more on the speed.
But never forget the "easy to learn part" ... your ideas feels for me often far from this... Hard to learn hard to master is not a good way to gather a large crowd. elitism is in fact the worst way to gather a decent community, you will need lot of people that don't care about complexity and just want to enjoy simple things in the game (again, the "game over" idea, and the "pve pressure" would repel such player)
But, the real problem for you is that i don't think as you think... you consider to have the truth, but you have one truth... only one amongst many other. And because you are so sure of your opinion, you are blind to other's opinion and do shortcut about what they say things. . .
You can't even understand why i love data analysis and could love to spend time on it before using information gathered thru data analysis to train again...
"THIS IS NOT THE GAME FOR IT"
Stop saying bullshit then give your honest opinion that has no connection to the bullshit.
"You think you have the one truth"
I give many suggestions that push in many directions to retain balance and improve appeal while you have mostly personal preference.
I say, "resource management is important, limited bag space is important for X, Y, and Z"
What do you have to say. . . .?
?????
Nothing. Ever. Just "this is survival. . ." you don't go beyond your most limited personal experience. You can't imagine anyone going beyond the most limited personal experience.
You have no self awareness of this.
I'm looking at Blade n' Soul. . . I will say it again: ARCADE MMO BULLSHIT. Giant AoE, very high mobility I am guessing, enemies looking pretty dull, hack n slash, every attack goes through everything with no physics. . . looking like whatever skill you imagine is in this game is a time-barrier or TOOLTIP EFFECT BULLSHIT.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people).
The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design.
If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly.
Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters.
Hostile Architecture
I don't know if bots can be stopped. If MMOs make the game easy for normal people, where repetitive actions are rewarded, those can be automated.
But they can reward people who are bad at raids too.
How will players figure out how bad the NPCs expect them to be in order to get a reward?
Probably will not happen. Both those who want trackers and those who doesn't, want those rewards and probably want to be proud of owning them. I think Steven will not reward mediocre performance.
But that is the only thing I imagine can work, to track player's performance and if they are too good, to prevent them obtaining what they want.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
He clearly expressed it...
the only way to reach the goal you defined is to have thing so unreadable/obfuscated that a big, large amount of players won't even care to give a try to understand it.
and on the other side, as said by nooani, the more obscur system are, the larger the gap is between top and midtier players... You just create kind of elitism... which always lead to the crumble of the community. Leaving it to only few dedicated and mostly blind fan... A Niche game would have more population that this game... Only specific kind of people can appreciate. This is totally fine for solo game honestly... but mmorpg where you want server full during years and years... another story
and for the bag : i gave why i say no : not fun, would reppel people more than anything, and it would just make the game slower. Most weight system failed in games... far more despised by gamers than applaused...
Myself, i didnt feel anything good from it. just a thing i had to deal with, but not interesting, and fast forgotten. so i see no point defending it...
My "limited experience" said the one who admit to not play many video game... right ?
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
He clearly expressed it...
the only way to reach the goal you defined is to have thing so unreadable/obfuscated that a big, large amount of players won't even care to give a try to understand it.
and on the other side, as said by nooani, the more obscur system are, the larger the gap is between top and midtier players... You just create kind of elitism... which always lead to the crumble of the community. Leaving it to only few dedicated and mostly blind fan... A Niche game would have more population that this game... Only specific kind of people can appreciate. This is totally fine for solo game honestly... but mmorpg where you want server full during years and years... another story
and for the bag : i gave why i say no : not fun, would reppel people more than anything, and it would just make the game slower. Most weight system failed in games... far more despised by gamers than applaused...
Myself, i didnt feel anything good from it. just a thing i had to deal with, but not interesting, and fast forgotten. so i see no point defending it...
My "limited experience" said the one who admit to not play many video game... right ?
jfc is there a fuckin' ghost in this thread?
I asked a specific question, not what your hollow theory and cognitively myopic bias is.
Sapi is awakened, with all its love, peace, will to share experiences etc etc. (i still wait to know his favourite game btw... will i have the answer a day ? ...)
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
For large majority of players, you are totally right.
For top end... for people who consider being excellent is not enough : they work with it.
The difference is for players, they don't care to be perfectly accurate. the "feeling it is the timing" is enough.
For some people, this is NOT enough, they want to be perfeclyt accurate, have the absolute perfect timing. "feeling" is not enough when you want real results.
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
we speak about people who want to perform, to be efficient, to do high end content
the skill is not a problem, progressing, improving is a problem.
You speak based on midtier rank player while we speak about high tier rank...
the "they don't have skill so will fail" is not an issue for top end, if they reach over the 90% efficiency it is because they have the skill for it...
It is reaching "master" in game with such system : all have skill, but grandmaster have skill and deep knowledge about numbers...
You want old style MMO, want Tab, say my suggestions are "hardcore" and "not ashes of creation" yet talk about skill and grandmasters
LMAO
We already understand that you are absolutely willing to insult Steven's team, Steven's Vision, and technically Steven himself.
We are having this conversation using the 'limitations' of avoiding those things though.
Steven says "I don't want Trackers, but I also want an MMO with a Combat Log and Tab Target as a somewhat viable playstyle."
And all we are doing is saying 'Uh... Steven, that doesn't work, how about trying this instead...'
You going "Steven your vision sucks there's no real skill in it lol change it and make sure there's no Trackers" is fine, but the point is we're not even trying to have the same conversation at that point.
Who is 'we'? The Summit?
What is the 'instead' you have suggested? No logs?
I believe that 'no logs' would work (to stop most people).
The instead was 'make it so that the people who want trackers only group with each other for anything serious while making it obvious to everyone else so that they can avoid those people'.
I have spoken about 'no logs' and several other ways to make the game that would be hostile to scripts, bots, and tools such as trackers, and lean into engaging design.
If 'no logs' and 'put the shame label on others' is your backbone: it's jelly.
Crush the exploits. Crush the exploiters.
Hostile Architecture
You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture.
But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work.
For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'.
None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players.
Are you saying obfuscation of information beyond representation of a Glancing Blow, Hit, et cetera would make the game unplayable?
That having a visual indication of damage or a creature being 'wounded', less battle effective, less mobile. . . whatever is not enough?
No. Not saying that. Don't care personally.
I play BDO on Console.
I just also could write a script to parse damage on BDO Console from a video of it if I wanted to.
So that's what I'm saying. I agree that you can implement Hostile Architecture. I do not agree that it would prevent me from writing the Scripts.
Scripts to pick up on what? If there are no numbers?
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CptBrownBeardMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This entire thread is the definition of insanity.
It's like watching one of those slapstick comedies where the individuals beat the ever-living tar out of each other, end up sprawled out on the ground exhausted and in pain, and yet you know they'll be back to do it again the next day.
I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was only allowed to continue so Intrepid had something to read while they're on lunch. Or relieving themselves of yesterday's lunch.
Sapi is awakened, with all its love, peace, will to share experiences etc etc. (i still wait to know his favourite game btw... will i have the answer a day ? ...)
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
For large majority of players, you are totally right.
For top end... for people who consider being excellent is not enough : they work with it.
The difference is for players, they don't care to be perfectly accurate. the "feeling it is the timing" is enough.
For some people, this is NOT enough, they want to be perfeclyt accurate, have the absolute perfect timing. "feeling" is not enough when you want real results.
For top end it is of little use.
You have no clue what gets results
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
People can... if they train for it.
how many will do it ? only a fraction.
most people won't do it...
If such thing (or similar) is needed to play a MMORPG they will stop after few hours... You will have only dedicated players, but mmorpg need a "mass" ... including people who don't want to invest too much energy, learning time about learning the game... if you do a hostile design as you say, you will mostly repel all them... not sure it is a decent idea for MMORPG
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
suffer the truth
This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports.
A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'.
It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted.
But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video.
Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
People can... if they train for it.
how many will do it ? only a fraction.
most people won't do it...
If such thing (or similar) is needed to play a MMORPG they will stop after few hours... You will have only dedicated players, but mmorpg need a "mass" ... including people who don't want to invest too much energy, learning time about learning the game... if you do a hostile design as you say, you will mostly repel all them... not sure it is a decent idea for MMORPG
It's like watching one of those slapstick comedies where the individuals beat the ever-living tar out of each other, end up sprawled out on the ground exhausted and in pain, and yet you know they'll be back to do it again the next day.
I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was only allowed to continue so Intrepid had something to read while they're on lunch. Or relieving themselves of yesterday's lunch.
possibly the majority of players will not be affected and the game will be amazing for them
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
suffer the truth
This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports.
A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'.
It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted.
But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video.
Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results.
Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known.
Trackers are most useful for games that don't require the work of improving.
Well, this is just another one of those posts that makes no sense.
Combat trackers have many uses. Among those uses is to track the progress of a players skill improving over time.
Easy data acquisition informs the development of scripts, programs, bots.
Yes tracking has many uses.
And you get better at fighting games by playing them rather than tracking them because you have a damn brain and mind that can absorb and recall information without a tracker.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance.
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
You have no fire
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
suffer the truth
This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports.
A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'.
It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted.
But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video.
Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results.
Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known.
Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already?
Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did?
Comments
I agree with what you are saying, but the only way to make ANY display that my code can't read is to make it so that a HUMAN can't read it.
You think of this as going through loops. I'm telling you that this code is not only easy, it doesn't even require understanding of it to run.
As for deciphering the information, I'll give you an example.
"Azherae used Castigation. The Desert Scorpion took 189 points of damage."
^(?P<player>.+?) used (?P<ability>.+?)\. (?P<enemy>.+?) takes (?P<damage>[0-9,]+) points of damage\.$
This is the regex required to parse that line.
You could give me a text file with 1 million lines. I will type ONE line into a command prompt containing the above and it will give me output of all abilities used by all players in the log on all enemies including other players and damage done, in a file, in less than ten seconds on my current computer.
It is EASIER to parse logs now than it is to install a parser.
If you are suggesting 'the Combat Log should just lie to players then', I accept your point. There isn't much the average player can do if the developer tries to avoid parsers by just straight up misrepresenting the information in the game's UI.
But as the spartans didn't quite ever actually say...
"If they can detect things they very well could take action even if the name of text file is not obvious but they can pick something up."
"If."
You make yourself really hard to respond to because in many cases I either agree with you or don't care when it comes to Hostile Architecture.
But I also know that Hostile Architecture doesn't actually stop Scripters, Botters, or Trackers, it only stops people who don't understand how those actually work.
For the game to be incomprehensible to scripts, it has to be incomprehensible to most humans. For it to be hostile to bots, it has to be hostile to most average humans. For it to be hostile to Trackers, it has to be hostile to 'Presenting Clear Information Ever'.
None of those things affect ME, but I like when MMOs have more than 80 players.
Trackers have no history of being used in relation to bots or scripts. It just isn't something that is needed. Once again, pick better points.
Using frame readers assists players in getting better in fighting games. You still need to play the games, but they help.
Using combat trackers assists players in getting better in MMO's. You still need to play the games, but they help.
PvE pressure is just a way to design content, which would lead the game to be far more PvE that what the project is.
I said i would love it. but your memory seems to forget that. I would love it, but i won't defend it for AoC because ... this is not the game for it.
Level powerscaling : as pen and paper DM and player... i prefer system around leveling (DD/pathfinder are great example, but also savage world) that system about skill-leveling (the system named basic is the most common for this)... Those are 2 different kind of system... and i play both.
I am fine with level being a big part of strength, so goes stuff for RPG (including so... MMORPG) i don't see any problem with it... i will get weaker that the most dedicated player just for this, even those with less skill and i honestly don't see the problem...
Weight management : i enforce this on my table, and my players tend to dislike it, i changed few thing to make better and still not enough... this is not a fun design, it fits only for survival games. So... clearly not a thing i want on a good MMORPG.
XP on use : cf over. a design choice, it is a nice way really, but not the one i prefer (plottwist : i support another MMORPG on which ... no level, but skill-leveling on use... )
Deepercombat action / Extra PvP : where did i complain about it ? I mean, my 2 favoured gameplay on MMORPG are Aion (tab targetting) and... BNS (action)... And a game with one or other i am perfectly fine with it. For the PvP side... if i complain one of your idea will push too much the PvE side of the game... it is maybe because i want a good balance between PvP and PvE ? ...
Skill Ceiling... i consider the best way to design a video game is the "easy to learn, hard to master" that was once the way t odo for blizzard and seems now the way to do for riot. So i am perfectly fine with it. Except i dislike the anicancel system (and i am fine with the weaving). but again here is a personnal choice. I prefer when the character is engaged and locked in its animation... so the bad choice of skill could be fatal, while anicancel is for me, just a smashing with short timing... relying less on decision making, and more on the speed.
But never forget the "easy to learn part" ... your ideas feels for me often far from this... Hard to learn hard to master is not a good way to gather a large crowd. elitism is in fact the worst way to gather a decent community, you will need lot of people that don't care about complexity and just want to enjoy simple things in the game (again, the "game over" idea, and the "pve pressure" would repel such player)
But, the real problem for you is that i don't think as you think... you consider to have the truth, but you have one truth... only one amongst many other. And because you are so sure of your opinion, you are blind to other's opinion and do shortcut about what they say things. . .
You can't even understand why i love data analysis and could love to spend time on it before using information gathered thru data analysis to train again...
Are you saying obfuscation of information beyond representation of a Glancing Blow, Hit, et cetera would make the game unplayable?
That having a visual indication of damage or a creature being 'wounded', less battle effective, less mobile. . . whatever is not enough?
Or you just think it's not enough to stop tools?
What about grounded mechanics? Yes advanced AI exists. Do you want Ashes of Creation to be a low barrier to entry market?
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
and say the part about 'getting better' and see if it works for anything but MMOs. trackers do next to nothing for Fighting games, for instance. I have a decent understanding of action combat and if you're stopping to look at a cold recap, you're just not "in the game". You're not in it. No fire. You don't get it.
No. Not saying that. Don't care personally.
I play BDO on Console.
I just also could write a script to parse damage on BDO Console from a video of it if I wanted to.
So that's what I'm saying. I agree that you can implement Hostile Architecture. I do not agree that it would prevent me from writing the Scripts.
All it means is now I have my tracker, and other people don't even know how much damage their abilities do.
"THIS IS NOT THE GAME FOR IT"
Stop saying bullshit then give your honest opinion that has no connection to the bullshit.
"You think you have the one truth"
I give many suggestions that push in many directions to retain balance and improve appeal while you have mostly personal preference.
I say, "resource management is important, limited bag space is important for X, Y, and Z"
What do you have to say. . . .?
?????
Nothing. Ever. Just "this is survival. . ." you don't go beyond your most limited personal experience. You can't imagine anyone going beyond the most limited personal experience.
You have no self awareness of this.
I'm looking at Blade n' Soul. . . I will say it again: ARCADE MMO BULLSHIT. Giant AoE, very high mobility I am guessing, enemies looking pretty dull, hack n slash, every attack goes through everything with no physics. . . looking like whatever skill you imagine is in this game is a time-barrier or TOOLTIP EFFECT BULLSHIT.
-1/10 tastes
Yeah, I know.
Different games have different tools appropriate to them.
As already discussed, in a fighting game, this is a frame reader. A frame reader is of no use in an MMO.
I don't know if bots can be stopped. If MMOs make the game easy for normal people, where repetitive actions are rewarded, those can be automated.
But they can reward people who are bad at raids too.
How will players figure out how bad the NPCs expect them to be in order to get a reward?
Probably will not happen. Both those who want trackers and those who doesn't, want those rewards and probably want to be proud of owning them. I think Steven will not reward mediocre performance.
But that is the only thing I imagine can work, to track player's performance and if they are too good, to prevent them obtaining what they want.
He clearly expressed it...
the only way to reach the goal you defined is to have thing so unreadable/obfuscated that a big, large amount of players won't even care to give a try to understand it.
and on the other side, as said by nooani, the more obscur system are, the larger the gap is between top and midtier players... You just create kind of elitism... which always lead to the crumble of the community. Leaving it to only few dedicated and mostly blind fan... A Niche game would have more population that this game... Only specific kind of people can appreciate. This is totally fine for solo game honestly... but mmorpg where you want server full during years and years... another story
and for the bag : i gave why i say no : not fun, would reppel people more than anything, and it would just make the game slower. Most weight system failed in games... far more despised by gamers than applaused...
Myself, i didnt feel anything good from it. just a thing i had to deal with, but not interesting, and fast forgotten. so i see no point defending it...
My "limited experience" said the one who admit to not play many video game... right ?
it's a real time chat
The point being that if tracking is easy, botting is easy.
A frame reader is of little use to a Fighting game player. Playing the game will tell you the window sizes.
Obviously I must clarify that this is not only not true, it is one of the most ignorant and laughably untrue takes imaginable within the realm of possibility.
I would have clarified in detail why this was, before, but I expected Mag to actually follow through on the discussion we were having about it, to that point, instead of disengaging.
I can, in fact, still be surprised, if I refuse to make certain negative assumptions about others until they clarify.
jfc is there a fuckin' ghost in this thread?
I asked a specific question, not what your hollow theory and cognitively myopic bias is.
I think we got Mag a little closer to understanding how OCR and realtime log reading works.
Sapi is awakened, with all its love, peace, will to share experiences etc etc. (i still wait to know his favourite game btw... will i have the answer a day ? ...)
For large majority of players, you are totally right.
For top end... for people who consider being excellent is not enough : they work with it.
The difference is for players, they don't care to be perfectly accurate. the "feeling it is the timing" is enough.
For some people, this is NOT enough, they want to be perfeclyt accurate, have the absolute perfect timing. "feeling" is not enough when you want real results.
Anyone that thinks people can't pick up on fraction of a second windows in a fighting game is delusional.
suffer the truth
Scripts to pick up on what? If there are no numbers?
It's like watching one of those slapstick comedies where the individuals beat the ever-living tar out of each other, end up sprawled out on the ground exhausted and in pain, and yet you know they'll be back to do it again the next day.
I wouldn't be surprised if this thread was only allowed to continue so Intrepid had something to read while they're on lunch. Or relieving themselves of yesterday's lunch.
For top end it is of little use.
You have no clue what gets results
People can... if they train for it.
how many will do it ? only a fraction.
most people won't do it...
If such thing (or similar) is needed to play a MMORPG they will stop after few hours... You will have only dedicated players, but mmorpg need a "mass" ... including people who don't want to invest too much energy, learning time about learning the game... if you do a hostile design as you say, you will mostly repel all them... not sure it is a decent idea for MMORPG
This is a really good example of a specific problem that comes up in games like this, in fact, in most competitive sports.
A mid-tier player has an incorrect idea in their head about HOW a top end player is doing something. They can't necessarily do it at the required level themselves, but they believe this must be how the top-tier player is doing it, because that's what they imagine they could 'skill up to'.
It's therefore easy to assume 'people who do really well' are doing something like this, and sure, they are, but the CAP on the ability is lower than the mid-tier player is imagining for all but the most gifted.
But I offer you the same point, Sapi, the same video.
Why didn't Nemo punish Bonchan's Angry Charge? I am glad to suffer the truth if you provide it.
I never suggested a Fighting Game type MMO
possibly the majority of players will not be affected and the game will be amazing for them
You do not know what gets anyone to the top or beyond it. You have no clue how to generate results.
Analyzing whether a fighting game has made it mathematically impossible for something can be figured out by playing the game until it's known.
There is no fucking gifts
Would your opinion be any different if you knew for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that I am the trainer/analyst for one of the best players in the world already?
Or would it be easier to just claim that's not true, demand I prove it, and then discredit the player if I did?