How do you feel about the Accuracy and Evasion stats and their effects on player effectiveness and 'DPS'?
Once, around 25 years ago, there was a game called The 4th Comming, I was a ganker there, who had all attribute points in inteligente or wisdom, in all levels I spend all atributes in that!
Why?
Because I wanted to kill people, I hate when a game has evasion rolls, I hate that because it makes impossible killing higher level players!!
Cool story: my character appeared in a local tv show about games, my character appeared fireballing another player and killing him with one show while he was going outside the city! AHAHAH
My character was naked, since he couldnt wear wear armor, so people would see me outside the city and come right at me and get one shotted!
It was beautiful!
ps: i hate evasion since it only helps higher level player, I want to kill others early on, I don't want to max level to be able to kill people from all levels
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
How do you feel about the Accuracy and Evasion stats and their effects on player effectiveness and 'DPS'?
Once, around 25 years ago, there was a game called The 4th Comming, I was a ganker there, who had all attribute points in inteligente or wisdom, in all levels I spend all atributes in that!
Why?
Because I wanted to kill people, I hate when a game has evasion rolls, I hate that because it makes impossible killing higher level players!!
Cool story: my character appeared in a local tv show about games, my character appeared fireballing another player and killing him with one show while he was going outside the city! AHAHAH
My character was naked, since he couldnt wear wear armor, so people would see me outside the city and come right at me and get one shotted!
It was beautiful!
ps: i hate evasion since it only helps higher level player, I want to kill others early on, I don't want to max level to be able to kill people from all levels
I've recently been studying how to do two things design wise.
1. Design tanks in a game with somewhat lower mobility, but no Evasion stat (action combat-ish)
2. Design a framework that emulates the effect of an Accuracy stat without using one, in a way that doesn't massively favor people with twitch skills.
The result of both methods would however be that many players would be likely to either still want the Combat Tracker, or switch to recording their fights and putting them through visual analysis (I mean, this is still another Tracker, but it's a little harder for some games).
I believe that Ashes is committed to the "Evasion" bit as of what we know now, so you will have to find a different way about it which I feel is unlikely to affect the discussion.
@Azherae I gave up all games where I couldn' t hit the other guy because his level was higher, this is why I don't like games that bad players do better in PvP just because they played more hours than me
This is why I loved UO so much, because I could log in any server and kill anyone since day 1
I could be naked killing the oldest character fully geared up in the best gear... and I did that many times, just using 2 purple potions and my pickpocket skill
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
@Azherae I gave up all games where I couldn' t hit the other guy because his level was higher, this is why I don't like games that bad players do better in PvP just because they played more hours than me
This is why I loved UO so much, because I could log in any server and kill anyone since day 1
I could be naked killing the oldest character fully geared up in the best gear... and I did that many times, just using 2 purple potions and my pickpocket skill
I mentioned it mostly because I was still thinking about how Dygz prefers games...
I understand the feeling, but you can probably see how it would be difficult to build a combat system that satisfies both you and Dygz.
I am pretty confident now that it can be done, fortunately (not that I think Ashes will do it).
The thing is that it wouldn't really lead to less Combat Tracker usage, but I do think that Dygz would be able to manage without it, so that was the thought process that led to the response.
I want to take DPS out of the damn pedestal so that it doesn't determine players' value.
The problem with this is that DPS is what about 75% of those present in a group or raid are there to provide. More DPS means being able to run more content which means more rewards which means more future success.
This is why it is on such a pedestal, as you put it.
It is an unfortunate truth that someone bought in to a group or raid as DPS can literally have their value determined by how much DPS they bring to said group or raid. Unfortunate, but still a truth.
Some people try and use the argument that players still need to perform encounter mechanics and such, and this is a factor external to DPS - but it isnt. You do indeed need to perform those actions, and then get back to DPS'ing. Thus those that are best at those actions have more time to DPS, and those that are bad at the actions will die and have lower DPS. So really, every aspect of a DPS class performance can be measured by their DPS output - for better or for worse.
In my experience, the biggest single difference between top end players and those playing games not at the top end is the acceptance - and even embracing - of this fact.
People in top end raid guilds know they are in their guild to provide a singular function. This is accepted and embraced, as I said. People in such guilds even compete with each other internally to this effect, with players always trying to do better than their peers. This has the added effect of increasing camaraderie within a guild - and indeed is a tactic militaries use to this effect (friendly competition with each other to both better oneself and improve overall morale).
It is in this atmosphere that combat trackers are literally nothing but a win. A win for players, a win for developers.
An argument can be made that combat trackers can be harmful when used outside of this atmosphere. I have never seen it first hand personally, but I accept that it can happen. I can see how people that see top end players using trackers and competing in a friendly manner with each other may misunderstand what is going on, and if such a person were to run a pickup group, I can see how they would massively misuse a combat tracker.
This is why the suggestion throughout this thread has always been for a combat tracker as a guild perk, but where that combat tracker only tracks combat of members of that guild.
What this leaves us with is a situation where guilds can opt to have the above situation, if they value data over what other guild perk options are offered. However, it also means that players not wanting a combat tracker used on them, and it means players like the above player that misunderstood the point of a tracker is not in a position to use a tracker in a pick up group at all. It also puts trackers in the hands of the most analytical players - these are the same people that will tear apart the games combat system to find bugs, that will parse builds for other players just because it is fun, basically all of the general good that combat trackers can have in a game as a whole happen when these analytical players have access to them and can discuss their findings - and the above still allows for that,
To me, this is the best possible outcome for all players.
It is worth pointing out that while I have previously said that if a tracker like this is built in to the game, development on the third party trackers that I am aware of would stop. However, while this is still technically true, with ChatGPT being a thing now, it is possible for someone that doesnt even know basic coding to make a totally undetectable combat tracker in an afternoon.
I understand that you are talking mostly from a top end perspective (1%), in regards to both difficulty of content and player skill. And I acknowledge that margin for error there is thinner on everything, including DPS. My points would probably touch more on the typical, casual even someone might say, encounters that the larger portion of the player base goes through (of those that raid/run dungeons). I think neither of us play WoW, but I'll make a WoW example any way. Mythic progression raids vs. Normal/Heroic raids.There are a lot more players actively doing Normal/Heroic raids than Mythic raids. Source: It's probably true. In this example you are the top end Mythic progression raider and my concerns touch more on the other raiders, the larger player population. But it can extend to top end raiders too, within a thinner margin of course.
Hypothetically, you do 99,5 % DPS of your friend's DPS (I have no clue about the actual margins but hopefully you can see the point that I'm trying to make). Does that automatically make your friend a better player without any other context? How about a better option for a certain raid? I don't know what you think, but I think no it doesn't. For all I know your friend could mess up half the mechanics (maybe even to make that 0,5 difference in DPS) and you do perfect job on those. You are the player that should participate in that raid. Sure your friend can flex his E-peen because he does more DPS, but that didn't really matter in terms of clearing the content.
That is a very simplistic and exaggerated example, but at least to me it still makes sense and drives through the point I'm trying to make. And remember, in the NOT top end content margins for errors are larger, so the difference between acceptable DPS and min maxed DPS can be larger to be still able to clear the content without DPS being an issue. Can you clear the content faster with min maxed DPS? Yes if the players are otherwise identically capable, or maybe not if there are some other differences in their skill levels, which was the case in the example above.
But if it's extremely important for someone to clear the content as fast as possible, that's fine, you should probably be able to find like minded players to do that. Of course ideally everyone would find like minded person to run content with, but this isn't the reality and different kind of players with different kind of mentalities end up sometimes running content together (Group finders, Dungeon finders etc.). And I'd assume that these are the situations where the bad shit happens. Especially these are the situations where I want to take DPS of the pedestal. Of course the DPS still needs to be within the margin for error and in most cases it probably is, but people still get to hear about it. And there are probably going to be other issues that the party has which they should focus on instead of focusing so hard on DPS from the get-go. I could expand this to that players focus too hard on the Meta all together, not just DPS, which leads to unnecessary exclusion of everything off meta.
As for ACTs in AOC. In the previous posts I explained why I don't support them in AOC, and nothing has changed since then. But in general, I can see the use they have.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Alright, I was moreso referring to a specific thing from some other games that is probably not relevant to you.
In case you've never experienced it, there are certain games where top content will become very difficult if not impossible to defeat if your character is lacking the accuracy to consistently hit them or can only achieve the accuracy to consistently hit them by trading other 'damage' related stats.
But... that sounds like you increase those stats for your character, if you want your character to maximize those stats. You shouldn't need a combat tracker to decide you want to maximize those stats.
It is a common thing for people in that situation to use the Tracker because it's a catch-22 from the design part. Adding more Damage stats does not matter if you miss, and vice versa to some extent.
I still don't understand why anyone would need a tracker to decide to increase Accuracy.
But, also, in Ashes you can use AOEs and/or stack damage with the Active Skills and Augments of your group mates, so... Accuracy shouldn't be imperative for all builds.
That's all I'll say, I don't think this is really your type of thing anyway. My only point was that this is one of the situations where I feel it's hard to make a real argument against the tracker because 'Accuracy vs Evasion' is often very statistical and RNG dependent, leading to situations where you get a bad RNG streak and feel like you should change your build (to add more Accuracy or Evasion) when you don't need to, and it ends up being unnecessary (and you still lose because that's the difficulty level of the content).
That sounds like poor and lazy design for an RPG.
I would expect Rangers and Rogues to be relying on high Accuracy and Evasion in any case.
A Mage would be more likely to have high Intelligence and rely on AOEs and Blink.
A Tank would be more likely to rely on Shields rather than Evasion (though there are Evasion Tanks for Tanks who wish to rely on Evasion... it's just up to each indidual player character). And melee classes should not be required to have high Accuracy.
Hypothetically, you do 99,5 % DPS of your friend's DPS (I have no clue about the actual margins but hopefully you can see the point that I'm trying to make). Does that automatically make your friend a better player without any other context? How about a better option for a certain raid? I don't know what you think, but I think no it doesn't. For all I know your friend could mess up half the mechanics (maybe even to make that 0,5 difference in DPS) and you do perfect job on those. You are the player that should participate in that raid. Sure your friend can flex his E-peen because he does more DPS, but that didn't really matter in terms of clearing the content.
I'll answer your question here directly, but not without first pointing out that the above is flawed for many reasons - some of which I'll go through after answering your question as written - however, I'd prefer a response based on the flaws I point I rather than the answer to the flawed question.
In your above example, with no further context, the person with higher DPS is better.
Sure, they may have not done the encounter mechanics properly, but so what?
Imagine an encounter mechanic, something simple like a repeating AoE that deals damage as long as you are in range. I may wait out of range for the AoE to finish, meaning I miss out on more DPS time. The other player that did more DPS may go back in sooner. This means they get hit by the AoE, and it may mean the healer in their group has more work to do.
However, that doesn't make them a worse player than me, it makes them a better player. They are assessing how much damage they can sustain from the AoE, how much the healer can heal them, etc. Taking all of that in to account, they were able too increase their DPS. That is literally the sign of a good player, not a bad player.
Sure, they could have died - but they didn't. They did the thing they planned on doing properly. If they did die, then the argument could be made that they are a worse player - but their DPS also wouldn't be higher than mine.
Now to add some context back to the above scenario.
First, neither of the above players would be picked over the other - not in a raid guild at least.
Assuming you have both already joined said guild, it is in the guilds best interest for both players to get as much raid time as possible.
If you are about to raid and have 41 players online where you need 40, you aren't just going to not take the player with the lowest DPS - that player is the player most in need of practice and experience, and so is the most likely to be taken along.
What most guilds will do is ask if anyone wants to sit out for the day - players sometimes log on as to not disappoint their friends, even if they have something else they would rather do - giving them the option to leave for the night knowing theybhavent let anyone down is BY FAR the best option in this scenario, rather than just not taking along the player that most needs to be there.
Going back to the scenario you presented for the second point I want to add to it, if we assume you are talking about the recruitment process, most guilds will basically ignore performance and recruit based on personality and attitude.
A player that will be a good fit in the guild, make some friends and just generally be positive is better than someone that constantly bitches and moans, or causes guild drama. A few percent of DPS isn't going to change that. To most guilds, 50% DPS isn't going to change that.
As long as both players are willing to always do their best, to always improve, and are aware of the eventual expectations we have, then it is 100% a matter of personality, not performance. We are recruiting someone to join the guild potentially for years to come - we have time to work on performance later.
When it comes to the context of an actual guild, there is no argument against combat trackers.
Now, if we are talking pick up groups and raids, all of the above stops mattering. In a pick up raid, the raid leader is looking for performance today, not performance for years to come. Their priorities have shifted.
This is why you opting to pick WoW as an example game is perfect. That game has it's LFR system - basically an automated system for forming raids. This leaves the raid leader in a position where the best thing they can do is look for performance right now. Personality doesn't matter at all - they have x raid spots to fill, and need the best people they have access to, who know the content in those spots. Nothing else matters in a pickup raid.
To make this situation even worse, in WoW, the game will happily replace any raid member that you boot out of the raid.
Essentially, the problem in regards to this content in WoW is that the system asks raid leaders to treat raid members as disposable - if someone isn't up to standard just boot them and the game will replace them. The issue there isn't that the raid leader can tell if someone is not up to standard, the issue is that the game will replace that player for them. Remove that function, and raid leaders stop treating raid members as disposable,
Again, this is why my suggestion is to make trackers in Ashes a guild function. This takes it out of the hands of pick up raids, but leaves it in the hands of guilds.
I don’t understand any objects to having logs and parsers. They’re a way to get information on what’s happening around you, plus they’re necessary for raiding.
I’ve never seen an MMO with a decent raiding scene without them. Not one.
It’s like saying we shouldn’t have a UI because it’ll be able to see my character. It’s ridiculous.
I don’t understand any objects to having logs and parsers. They’re a way to get information on what’s happening around you, plus they’re necessary for raiding.
I’ve never seen an MMO with a decent raiding scene without them. Not one.
It’s like saying we shouldn’t have a UI because it’ll be able to see my character. It’s ridiculous.
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
I don’t understand any objects to having logs and parsers. They’re a way to get information on what’s happening around you, plus they’re necessary for raiding.
I’ve never seen an MMO with a decent raiding scene without them. Not one.
It’s like saying we shouldn’t have a UI because it’ll be able to see my character. It’s ridiculous.
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
Tell us you dont know what a combat tracker does without telling us you dont know what combat tracker does.
A combat tracker does not and can not tell you what to do.
I don’t understand any objects to having logs and parsers. They’re a way to get information on what’s happening around you, plus they’re necessary for raiding.
I’ve never seen an MMO with a decent raiding scene without them. Not one.
It’s like saying we shouldn’t have a UI because it’ll be able to see my character. It’s ridiculous.
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
Tell us you dont know what a combat tracker does without telling us you dont know what combat tracker does.
A combat tracker does not and can not tell you what to do.
Again you are missing the point, or you agree you can do everything without a combat tracker and figure things out with a game having the same difficulty (technically increased since you have no handicap).
I don’t understand any objects to having logs and parsers. They’re a way to get information on what’s happening around you, plus they’re necessary for raiding.
I’ve never seen an MMO with a decent raiding scene without them. Not one.
It’s like saying we shouldn’t have a UI because it’ll be able to see my character. It’s ridiculous.
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
Tell us you dont know what a combat tracker does without telling us you dont know what combat tracker does.
A combat tracker does not and can not tell you what to do.
Again you are missing the point, or you agree you can do everything without a combat tracker and figure things out with a game having the same difficulty (technically increased since you have no handicap).
I must be missing the point then.
So, for clarification, what us the point you were trying to make by claiming a combat tracker does a thing that a combat tracker can not do?
Difficulty comes from mechanics, not having information hidden.
Most noobs who raid just get mad when the raid wipes and start yelling. Those are the people who don’t use parsers to check the logs to figure out what happened.
At the higher end parsers are indispensable for figuring out mechanics. Anyone who just uses one for highest dps and that’s it has never raided at a high level.
More information is always better than less. The people who are against them I’m guessing haven’t done much raiding and think raiding is about watching a video to tell you what’s going on and copying someone else’s strategies, strategies made by those who use parsers.
I don’t understand any objects to having logs and parsers. They’re a way to get information on what’s happening around you, plus they’re necessary for raiding.
I’ve never seen an MMO with a decent raiding scene without them. Not one.
It’s like saying we shouldn’t have a UI because it’ll be able to see my character. It’s ridiculous.
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
Tell us you dont know what a combat tracker does without telling us you dont know what combat tracker does.
A combat tracker does not and can not tell you what to do.
Again you are missing the point, or you agree you can do everything without a combat tracker and figure things out with a game having the same difficulty (technically increased since you have no handicap).
I must be missing the point then.
So, for clarification, what us the point you were trying to make by claiming a combat tracker does a thing that a combat tracker can not do?
Combat tracker and parsing adds nothing to the game, not having it doesn't change the fundamentality of the game. Seeing more information does not suddenly add to a game and make content more difficulty.. The only thing the tool does is it make easier by giving you more information in a easier way so you know better how to race through content without doing the leg work yourself.
Effectively not viewing your teammates skills, dps, etc does not suddenly make PvE easier is the point. Meaning all the difficulty for pve remains, if not more since it requires more work on your side to figure things out.
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2023
It's actually the gamers who use parsers who cry and throw a tantrum when they wipe.
It's the players who don't rely on parsers who are fine with using trial and error to find a viable strategy with their group mates.
In any good RPG, you should not need to be focused on numbers to find a winning strategy.
Especially if the devs did not provide parsers.
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
These are not the same statements.
The only thing about these two statements that is the same is that both indicate a total lack of understanding as to what combat trackers actually do.
Because i keep hearing comments you can't have hard content without trackers, that they need them for end game. So i view it as a over reliance on them with the assumption there is no hard pve content if they don't exist when having them or not does not have an exact effect on the actual gameplay in a sense. If you have it on or not it changes nothing in the challenge you have to overcome.
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
These are not the same statements.
The only thing about these two statements that is the same is that both indicate a total lack of understanding as to what combat trackers actually do.
Because i keep hearing comments you can't have hard content without trackers, that they need them for end game. So i view it as a over reliance on them with the assumption there is no hard pve content if they don't exist when having them or not does not have an exact effect on the actual gameplay in a sense. If you have it on or not it changes nothing in the challenge you have to overcome.
Yeah, so this is a total lack of understanding on your part again.
As I said a page or so ago, imagine you are a math teacher and you are writing your class an exam.
The questions you ask of your students will be vastly different if you allow calculators vs if you do not allow calculators. A good teacher will write enough questions that are just hard enough for students at the expected level to be able to answer them correctly within the time frame.
If a calculator is expected to be used, this means those questions can be harder, can be required to be more precise (answer to the 5th decimal instead of the first), there can be more of them, etc. Basically, the expectation a teacher can place on their class in an exam with a calculator is higher than what they can expect without one.
Now, both are valid things to test students on, but they are actually very different from each other.
An exam without a calculator is more to show basic understanding, whereas with a calculator is to show an on depth understanding.
There is an argument to be made that an exam question could be written asking students to solve an in depth equation. This is technically true, however the exam would need to exist of a single question, where as with a calculator 10 or more variants of the same question could be asked so that students are required to demonstrate a full understanding of the subject matter.
The same is true MMO content.
Top end content is designed to test player.
Content designed without the use of trackers in mind has to follow the same basic path as questions in an exam without a calculator. They need to either be simpler, have more room for error, or be significantly fewer in number.
Now, by wanting a combat tracker, I am saying both of the above should exist. There should be content that is a solid challenge to people jot wanting to use a combat tracker, but there also should be content that goes in to the kinda of depths where you do need a combat tracker.
Further, by saying Intrepid should build a tracker in to Ashes, I am saying they can actually make it so players running content designed without a tracker in mind simply dont have access to said tracker - for that content. A first party tracker is literally the only way this will ever happen.
By not wanting a combat tracker, you are saying only one of the above should exist.
Further to that, the argument you are making that combat trackers make content easier supposes only one of the above to exist. Your argument is basically that students shouldn't have calculators in exams because they may use them in exams not designed for them, and is totally ignoring exams that are designed for them to be present.
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
These are not the same statements.
The only thing about these two statements that is the same is that both indicate a total lack of understanding as to what combat trackers actually do.
Because i keep hearing comments you can't have hard content without trackers, that they need them for end game. So i view it as a over reliance on them with the assumption there is no hard pve content if they don't exist when having them or not does not have an exact effect on the actual gameplay in a sense. If you have it on or not it changes nothing in the challenge you have to overcome.
Yeah, so this is a total lack of understanding on your part again.
As I said a page or so ago, imagine you are a math teacher and you are writing your class an exam.
The questions you ask of your students will be vastly different if you allow calculators vs if you do not allow calculators. A good teacher will write enough questions that are just hard enough for students at the expected level to be able to answer them correctly within the time frame.
If a calculator is expected to be used, this means those questions can be harder, can be required to be more precise (answer to the 5th decimal instead of the first), there can be more of them, etc. Basically, the expectation a teacher can place on their class in an exam with a calculator is higher than what they can expect without one.
Now, both are valid things to test students on, but they are actually very different from each other.
An exam without a calculator is more to show basic understanding, whereas with a calculator is to show an on depth understanding.
There is an argument to be made that an exam question could be written asking students to solve an in depth equation. This is technically true, however the exam would need to exist of a single question, where as with a calculator 10 or more variants of the same question could be asked so that students are required to demonstrate a full understanding of the subject matter.
The same is true MMO content.
Top end content is designed to test player.
Content designed without the use of trackers in mind has to follow the same basic path as questions in an exam without a calculator. They need to either be simpler, have more room for error, or be significantly fewer in number.
Now, by wanting a combat tracker, I am saying both of the above should exist. There should be content that is a solid challenge to people jot wanting to use a combat tracker, but there also should be content that goes in to the kinda of depths where you do need a combat tracker.
Further, by saying Intrepid should build a tracker in to Ashes, I am saying they can actually make it so players running content designed without a tracker in mind simply dont have access to said tracker - for that content. A first party tracker is literally the only way this will ever happen.
By not wanting a combat tracker, you are saying only one of the above should exist.
Further to that, the argument you are making that combat trackers make content easier supposes only one of the above to exist. Your argument is basically that students shouldn't have calculators in exams because they may use them in exams not designed for them, and is totally ignoring exams that are designed for them to be present.
it really deosn't amtter how you try to explain it the basis is the same i have a complete understanding. Hense why i said
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
Effectively the content is too hard for you so you need a means to cheat so you can do it. This allows you to rush though content quicker and more easily. Without your tools you need to spend more time figuring things out through trial, error, experience and learning. Meaning that content will last longer as well as it takes longer before people can beat it.
Again the content doesn't change it just becomes more difficult for more people. You are simply trying to twist it to try to make a argument that you need it. Sorry to say games are not calculus and you can't compare the two, people can handle difficult content and overcome the challenge with time with game related content.
it really deosn't amtter how you try to explain it the basis is the same i have a complete understanding. Hense why i said
The problem with this statement is that it means that this;
Again the content doesn't change it just becomes more difficult for more people.
Is literally you calling Intrepid developers stupid.
Either you are calling the developers of this game stupid, or you do not have a complete understanding of this topic.
My assumption is that your understanding of this topic is so poor that you don't even grasp how the above quote is you calling Intrepid developers stupid.
it really deosn't amtter how you try to explain it the basis is the same i have a complete understanding. Hense why i said
The problem with this statement is that it means that this;
Again the content doesn't change it just becomes more difficult for more people.
Is literally you calling Intrepid developers stupid.
Either you are calling the developers of this game stupid, or you do not have a complete understanding of this topic.
My assumption is that your understanding of this topic is so poor that you don't even grasp how the above quote is you calling Intrepid developers stupid.
You are putting words in peoples mouths that is you indirectly trying to call other people stupid don't lump me in with your insults thank you.
Without those things added the gameplay does not change. Nothing you say can change that fact because it doesn't directly effect what the mobs/ AI does.
I'm still ambivalent about trackers. It would be bad for competitive play if there is a 60-40 damage split on loot and some people can calculate the barriers to 0 points exact.
Without those things added the gameplay does not change. Nothing you say can change that fact because it doesn't directly effect what the mobs/ AI does.
Game developers add content to a game based on how players react to previous content.
In order for your statements here to be true, you either have to assume that Intrepid develoers are unable to do that, or eyou have to not know what you are talking about.
There is no other situation where you can state the above.
Without those things added the gameplay does not change. Nothing you say can change that fact because it doesn't directly effect what the mobs/ AI does.
Game developers add content to a game based on how players react to previous content.
In order for your statements here to be true, you either have to assume that Intrepid develoers are unable to do that, or eyou have to not know what you are talking about.
There is no other situation where you can state the above.
You really don't get it, having a third party tool has 0 direct effect. If you remove the tool the content is there in the same form and shape. Nothing changes and had nothing to do with additional content.
What you are saying is because people have tools that give them an ADVANTAGE developers need to adjust things as the game is being made easier since players don't need to figure things out or they figure it out at an extreme fast pace.
There is 0 reason to twist those together as one. If tools are removed the game is in the exact same form and does not change, you simply have a harder time figuring things out.
Without those things added the gameplay does not change. Nothing you say can change that fact because it doesn't directly effect what the mobs/ AI does.
Game developers add content to a game based on how players react to previous content.
In order for your statements here to be true, you either have to assume that Intrepid develoers are unable to do that, or eyou have to not know what you are talking about.
There is no other situation where you can state the above.
You really don't get it, having a third party tool has 0 direct effect. If you remove the tool the content is there in the same form and shape. Nothing changes and had nothing to do with additional content.
What you are saying is because people have tools that give them an ADVANTAGE developers need to adjust things as the game is being made easier since players don't need to figure things out or they figure it out at an extreme fast pace.
There is 0 reason to twist those together as one. If tools are removed the game is in the exact same form and does not change, you simply have a harder time figuring things out.
I'm still not sure if you think Intrepid developers are stupid, or if you simply don't know what you are talking about.
So, think back to when you take on top end content, before it has ever been killed by anyone. It doesn't matter what game we are talking about, because every game does the same thing.
If you think back to this content (that I am *sure* you have participated in), you'll remember that there are really small changes made to encounters daily.
This is the developer of the game fine tuning the content.
this has to happen on live servers for top end content, because developers of MMO's have no way at all of working out how powerful a full raid of players in their game will be. This is because top end raiders are significantly better players than developers, and often actually know more about the games combat system than any individual developer.
So, what developers do is they release the content harder than they think they need to make it, and they then fine turn it based on how hard players find it. This "harder than they think they need" often ends up with encounters on live servers that are literally unable to be killed.
So, it players have more trouble killing an encounter, the developers turn it down much more. If players have less trouble, if they are close to killing it, then it is turned down less - or perhaps not at all (or perhaps tuned up).
So, if players are using combat trackers, the content will be tuned harder.
I know you will want to say "well, Intrepid could just not tune content to guilds with combat trackers" - because of course that is what you will say. Thing is, Intrepid have no way of knowing who is and who isn't using a tracker if they don't create a first party tracker. They simply cant just ignore guilds that are using a tracker.
So, if we are assuming you know all of the above (objective facts, by the way), then you are saying Intrepid are incapable of tuning content.
This is why I am unsure if you are just talking about things you know nothing at all about (my assumption, to be honest), or if you are calling Intrepid incompetent.
Without those things added the gameplay does not change. Nothing you say can change that fact because it doesn't directly effect what the mobs/ AI does.
Game developers add content to a game based on how players react to previous content.
In order for your statements here to be true, you either have to assume that Intrepid develoers are unable to do that, or eyou have to not know what you are talking about.
There is no other situation where you can state the above.
You really don't get it, having a third party tool has 0 direct effect. If you remove the tool the content is there in the same form and shape. Nothing changes and had nothing to do with additional content.
What you are saying is because people have tools that give them an ADVANTAGE developers need to adjust things as the game is being made easier since players don't need to figure things out or they figure it out at an extreme fast pace.
There is 0 reason to twist those together as one. If tools are removed the game is in the exact same form and does not change, you simply have a harder time figuring things out.
I'm still not sure if you think Intrepid developers are stupid, or if you simply don't know what you are talking about.
So, think back to when you take on top end content, before it has ever been killed by anyone. It doesn't matter what game we are talking about, because every game does the same thing.
If you think back to this content (that I am *sure* you have participated in), you'll remember that there are really small changes made to encounters daily.
This is the developer of the game fine tuning the content.
this has to happen on live servers for top end content, because developers of MMO's have no way at all of working out how powerful a full raid of players in their game will be. This is because top end raiders are significantly better players than developers, and often actually know more about the games combat system than any individual developer.
So, what developers do is they release the content harder than they think they need to make it, and they then fine turn it based on how hard players find it. This "harder than they think they need" often ends up with encounters on live servers that are literally unable to be killed.
So, it players have more trouble killing an encounter, the developers turn it down much more. If players have less trouble, if they are close to killing it, then it is turned down less - or perhaps not at all (or perhaps tuned up).
So, if players are using combat trackers, the content will be tuned harder.
I know you will want to say "well, Intrepid could just not tune content to guilds with combat trackers" - because of course that is what you will say. Thing is, Intrepid have no way of knowing who is and who isn't using a tracker if they don't create a first party tracker. They simply cant just ignore guilds that are using a tracker.
So, if we are assuming you know all of the above (objective facts, by the way), then you are saying Intrepid are incapable of tuning content.
This is why I am unsure if you are just talking about things you know nothing at all about (my assumption, to be honest), or if you are calling Intrepid incompetent.
Respectfully can you stop staying stupid and intrepid develops in the same sentence, its highly disrespectful. Keep your own thoughts to yourself. What they do I trust the game they make at the end, if you want to be negative / childish don't use me in any post with your insult towards them.
You literarily will not read what I am saying third party has no direct effect on what happens in the gameplay that is a fact. You do not gain more gear suddenly, your skills do not suddenly get different effects. The entire gameplay plays the same (unless we are talking about hacks obviously).
Do not inject people use third party anyway (even if it is against TOS) to try to skew the point I'm trying to make because you simply can't accept reality and are trying to skate around to make yourself seem right.
If I'm talking about people using things against TOS that will be another discussion and not what I'm talking about here so please don't bring that up as a point.
If you have nothing to say on my point or have a desire to change it, you are simply just trying to avoid answer properly and making things up.
Respectfully can you stop staying stupid and intrepid develops in the same sentence, its highly disrespectful. Keep your own thoughts to yourself. What they do I trust the game they make at the end, if you want to be negative / childish don't use me in any post with your insult towards them.
I mean, I've been asking you the last few posts whether you think Intrepid develoeprs are stupid, or just have no idea what you are talking about.
If you agree with me that the develoeprs at Intrepid are indeed not stupid, then that's great, we can assume the alternative and move on.
You literarily will not read what I am saying third party has no direct effect on what happens in the gameplay that is a fact. You do not gain more gear suddenly, your skills do not suddenly get different effects. The entire gameplay plays the same (unless we are talking about hacks obviously).
Do not inject people use third party anyway (even if it is against TOS) to try to skew the point I'm trying to make because you simply can't accept reality and are trying to skate around to make yourself seem right.
If I'm talking about people using things against TOS that will be another discussion and not what I'm talking about here so please don't bring that up as a point.
If you have nothing to say on my point or have a desire to change it, you are simply just trying to avoid answer properly and making things up.
Now on to this part.
No where in this thread has anyone (yourself included) said that a combat tracker means players suddenly gain more gear. I literally have no idea where this point you are talking about here came from (I know you are saying it doesn't happen, I just have no idea *why* you are saying it doesn't happen).
What I have said is as per the previous post. To reiterate;
For top end content, developers create content, test it for bugs on the test server, release to the live server, then tune based on player progress in order to achieve the desired difficulty.
Now, It is that last step that you seem to either not be aware of, or assumed Intrepid wouldn't or couldn't do (you have since clarified that you believe Intrepid are competent, meaning we can now simply assume you were unaware of this step).
What this means is that if top end guilds are using a combat tracker, then that content will be tuned based on progress of guilds using combat trackers - regardless of whether Intrepid take that in to account or not.
Now, the above is my point here, and you seem to be disagreeing with it. I am not sure what aspect of this you are disagreeing with, as you keep going off on random tangents that make no sense (such as the above tangent about getting more gear).
So please, let me know which of the above basic set of objective facts it is you disagree with so we can continue this discussion.
My assumption is that you want the discussion to assume top end guilds won't be using a tracker. The issue there is that we can't really talk about combat tracker use and it's impact on the games content if we are discussing things on the assumption that no one is using combat trackers. I have to assume you can see how pointless such a discussion would be - the answer would obviously be that if no one is using a combat tracker, combat trackers will not have any impact.
However, since top end guilds will be using trackers, it makes no sense at all to assume that top end guilds would not be using them. I mean, you accused me above of not being able to accept reality, but the reality is that people will be using trackers, and that will not be against the ToS (the ToS can not prevent me doing things on a computer that the game client is not on, and it is dead easy to run a combat tracker on a second computer, a smartphone or even just a raspberry pi).
So, do we want this discussion to be about the real world where trackers are being used, developers are tuning content based on player progress and thus based on tracker use, or do you want this discussion to accommodate some factitious world that you wish to inhabit?
Respectfully can you stop staying stupid and intrepid develops in the same sentence, its highly disrespectful. Keep your own thoughts to yourself. What they do I trust the game they make at the end, if you want to be negative / childish don't use me in any post with your insult towards them.
I mean, I've been asking you the last few posts whether you think Intrepid develoeprs are stupid, or just have no idea what you are talking about.
If you agree with me that the develoeprs at Intrepid are indeed not stupid, then that's great, we can assume the alternative and move on.
You literarily will not read what I am saying third party has no direct effect on what happens in the gameplay that is a fact. You do not gain more gear suddenly, your skills do not suddenly get different effects. The entire gameplay plays the same (unless we are talking about hacks obviously).
Do not inject people use third party anyway (even if it is against TOS) to try to skew the point I'm trying to make because you simply can't accept reality and are trying to skate around to make yourself seem right.
If I'm talking about people using things against TOS that will be another discussion and not what I'm talking about here so please don't bring that up as a point.
If you have nothing to say on my point or have a desire to change it, you are simply just trying to avoid answer properly and making things up.
Now on to this part.
No where in this thread has anyone (yourself included) said that a combat tracker means players suddenly gain more gear. I literally have no idea where this point you are talking about here came from (I know you are saying it doesn't happen, I just have no idea *why* you are saying it doesn't happen).
What I have said is as per the previous post. To reiterate;
For top end content, developers create content, test it for bugs on the test server, release to the live server, then tune based on player progress in order to achieve the desired difficulty.
Now, It is that last step that you seem to either not be aware of, or assumed Intrepid wouldn't or couldn't do (you have since clarified that you believe Intrepid are competent, meaning we can now simply assume you were unaware of this step).
What this means is that if top end guilds are using a combat tracker, then that content will be tuned based on progress of guilds using combat trackers - regardless of whether Intrepid take that in to account or not.
Now, the above is my point here, and you seem to be disagreeing with it. I am not sure what aspect of this you are disagreeing with, as you keep going off on random tangents that make no sense (such as the above tangent about getting more gear).
So please, let me know which of the above basic set of objective facts it is you disagree with so we can continue this discussion.
My assumption is that you want the discussion to assume top end guilds won't be using a tracker. The issue there is that we can't really talk about combat tracker use and it's impact on the games content if we are discussing things on the assumption that no one is using combat trackers. I have to assume you can see how pointless such a discussion would be - the answer would obviously be that if no one is using a combat tracker, combat trackers will not have any impact.
However, since top end guilds will be using trackers, it makes no sense at all to assume that top end guilds would not be using them. I mean, you accused me above of not being able to accept reality, but the reality is that people will be using trackers, and that will not be against the ToS (the ToS can not prevent me doing things on a computer that the game client is not on, and it is dead easy to run a combat tracker on a second computer, a smartphone or even just a raspberry pi).
So, do we want this discussion to be about the real world where trackers are being used, developers are tuning content based on player progress and thus based on tracker use, or do you want this discussion to accommodate some factitious world that you wish to inhabit?
Ya you are arguing thin air and running in circles to keep boosting thread..... OBVIOUSLY using a third party or tracker doesn't give you more gear. When you use a a tracker it does not effect the content in the game why can you not understand this stop trying to arguing other facts.
ALL YOU GET IS INFORMATION, it does NOT make combat harder, it does not make combat easier, it does not change content in the game.
You are literarily making things up to argue I'm not talking about people breaking TOS stop talking about that in my post. Stop talking about that and also saying you suddenly can view dmg of your team when you aren't given any of that information.
Again if you continue to argue on this tos / rule breaking where they said they are not allowing it you are wasting both our time.
Respectfully can you stop staying stupid and intrepid develops in the same sentence, its highly disrespectful. Keep your own thoughts to yourself. What they do I trust the game they make at the end, if you want to be negative / childish don't use me in any post with your insult towards them.
I mean, I've been asking you the last few posts whether you think Intrepid develoeprs are stupid, or just have no idea what you are talking about.
If you agree with me that the develoeprs at Intrepid are indeed not stupid, then that's great, we can assume the alternative and move on.
You literarily will not read what I am saying third party has no direct effect on what happens in the gameplay that is a fact. You do not gain more gear suddenly, your skills do not suddenly get different effects. The entire gameplay plays the same (unless we are talking about hacks obviously).
Do not inject people use third party anyway (even if it is against TOS) to try to skew the point I'm trying to make because you simply can't accept reality and are trying to skate around to make yourself seem right.
If I'm talking about people using things against TOS that will be another discussion and not what I'm talking about here so please don't bring that up as a point.
If you have nothing to say on my point or have a desire to change it, you are simply just trying to avoid answer properly and making things up.
Now on to this part.
No where in this thread has anyone (yourself included) said that a combat tracker means players suddenly gain more gear. I literally have no idea where this point you are talking about here came from (I know you are saying it doesn't happen, I just have no idea *why* you are saying it doesn't happen).
What I have said is as per the previous post. To reiterate;
For top end content, developers create content, test it for bugs on the test server, release to the live server, then tune based on player progress in order to achieve the desired difficulty.
Now, It is that last step that you seem to either not be aware of, or assumed Intrepid wouldn't or couldn't do (you have since clarified that you believe Intrepid are competent, meaning we can now simply assume you were unaware of this step).
What this means is that if top end guilds are using a combat tracker, then that content will be tuned based on progress of guilds using combat trackers - regardless of whether Intrepid take that in to account or not.
Now, the above is my point here, and you seem to be disagreeing with it. I am not sure what aspect of this you are disagreeing with, as you keep going off on random tangents that make no sense (such as the above tangent about getting more gear).
So please, let me know which of the above basic set of objective facts it is you disagree with so we can continue this discussion.
My assumption is that you want the discussion to assume top end guilds won't be using a tracker. The issue there is that we can't really talk about combat tracker use and it's impact on the games content if we are discussing things on the assumption that no one is using combat trackers. I have to assume you can see how pointless such a discussion would be - the answer would obviously be that if no one is using a combat tracker, combat trackers will not have any impact.
However, since top end guilds will be using trackers, it makes no sense at all to assume that top end guilds would not be using them. I mean, you accused me above of not being able to accept reality, but the reality is that people will be using trackers, and that will not be against the ToS (the ToS can not prevent me doing things on a computer that the game client is not on, and it is dead easy to run a combat tracker on a second computer, a smartphone or even just a raspberry pi).
So, do we want this discussion to be about the real world where trackers are being used, developers are tuning content based on player progress and thus based on tracker use, or do you want this discussion to accommodate some factitious world that you wish to inhabit?
Ya you are arguing thin air and running in circles to keep boosting thread..... OBVIOUSLY using a third party or tracker doesn't give you more gear. When you use a a tracker it does not effect the content in the game why can you not understand this stop trying to arguing other facts.
ALL YOU GET IS INFORMATION, it does NOT make combat harder, it does not make combat easier, it does not change content in the game.
You are literarily making things up to argue I'm not talking about people breaking TOS stop talking about that in my post. Stop talking about that and also saying you suddenly can view dmg of your team when you aren't given any of that information.
Again if you continue to argue on this tos / rule breaking where they said they are not allowing it you are wasting both our time.
Rather than throwing a tantrum like this, why not instead form an argument against what I am actually talking about?
I have explained to you how things actually are, how it works in the real world. I am not arguing "what if's", nor am I arguing scenarios with some specific set of conditions. I am simply stating how things are.
If you cant form a debate against that, why are you continuing to argue?
You have repeatedly tried to make the argument that a combat tracker does not alter the content. This is something we agree on - and I have never said it does. What I have said is the developers tune content based on player progress on content. If players progress faster than the developers thought, they will tune that content to be harder.
From that point, I actually cant tell if you are trying to suggest that people using combat trackers wont progress on that content faster or not. It is at this point that your argument is seeming to fail to be coherent.
If you are arguing that combat trackers will not allow guilds to progress faster on this content, I'm fairly sure I can find quotes of you saying you dont like combat trackers because it allows players to.progress through content faster, which would lead us to a bit of an impasse.
If what you are trying to say to my above point about Intrepid tuning content is that we shouldnt assume people are using combat trackers, cool, you go off and assume that. If you are assuming no one will use a combat tracker, you have no reason to be posting in this thread.
If you are assuming something else, which with how incoherent your points are right now may indeed be the case, then I'm happy to discuss what ever it is.
The thing is, any point you may have had has been completely lost in your actual rambling and tantrums of your last few posts.
Also, yes, the combat tracker I have right now will allow me to see the damage output of those in my raid, as well as their healing in and out, damage taken etc. It will give me as much information on them as it gives on me.
Note; as I said, that is the tracker for Ashes I have now.
Comments
Once, around 25 years ago, there was a game called The 4th Comming, I was a ganker there, who had all attribute points in inteligente or wisdom, in all levels I spend all atributes in that!
Why?
Because I wanted to kill people, I hate when a game has evasion rolls, I hate that because it makes impossible killing higher level players!!
Cool story: my character appeared in a local tv show about games, my character appeared fireballing another player and killing him with one show while he was going outside the city! AHAHAH
My character was naked, since he couldnt wear wear armor, so people would see me outside the city and come right at me and get one shotted!
It was beautiful!
ps: i hate evasion since it only helps higher level player, I want to kill others early on, I don't want to max level to be able to kill people from all levels
In games with complex combat systems, this is false.
I've recently been studying how to do two things design wise.
1. Design tanks in a game with somewhat lower mobility, but no Evasion stat (action combat-ish)
2. Design a framework that emulates the effect of an Accuracy stat without using one, in a way that doesn't massively favor people with twitch skills.
The result of both methods would however be that many players would be likely to either still want the Combat Tracker, or switch to recording their fights and putting them through visual analysis (I mean, this is still another Tracker, but it's a little harder for some games).
I believe that Ashes is committed to the "Evasion" bit as of what we know now, so you will have to find a different way about it which I feel is unlikely to affect the discussion.
This is why I loved UO so much, because I could log in any server and kill anyone since day 1
I could be naked killing the oldest character fully geared up in the best gear... and I did that many times, just using 2 purple potions and my pickpocket skill
I mentioned it mostly because I was still thinking about how Dygz prefers games...
I understand the feeling, but you can probably see how it would be difficult to build a combat system that satisfies both you and Dygz.
I am pretty confident now that it can be done, fortunately (not that I think Ashes will do it).
The thing is that it wouldn't really lead to less Combat Tracker usage, but I do think that Dygz would be able to manage without it, so that was the thought process that led to the response.
I understand that you are talking mostly from a top end perspective (1%), in regards to both difficulty of content and player skill. And I acknowledge that margin for error there is thinner on everything, including DPS. My points would probably touch more on the typical, casual even someone might say, encounters that the larger portion of the player base goes through (of those that raid/run dungeons). I think neither of us play WoW, but I'll make a WoW example any way. Mythic progression raids vs. Normal/Heroic raids.There are a lot more players actively doing Normal/Heroic raids than Mythic raids. Source: It's probably true. In this example you are the top end Mythic progression raider and my concerns touch more on the other raiders, the larger player population. But it can extend to top end raiders too, within a thinner margin of course.
Hypothetically, you do 99,5 % DPS of your friend's DPS (I have no clue about the actual margins but hopefully you can see the point that I'm trying to make). Does that automatically make your friend a better player without any other context? How about a better option for a certain raid? I don't know what you think, but I think no it doesn't. For all I know your friend could mess up half the mechanics (maybe even to make that 0,5 difference in DPS) and you do perfect job on those. You are the player that should participate in that raid. Sure your friend can flex his E-peen because he does more DPS, but that didn't really matter in terms of clearing the content.
That is a very simplistic and exaggerated example, but at least to me it still makes sense and drives through the point I'm trying to make. And remember, in the NOT top end content margins for errors are larger, so the difference between acceptable DPS and min maxed DPS can be larger to be still able to clear the content without DPS being an issue. Can you clear the content faster with min maxed DPS? Yes if the players are otherwise identically capable, or maybe not if there are some other differences in their skill levels, which was the case in the example above.
But if it's extremely important for someone to clear the content as fast as possible, that's fine, you should probably be able to find like minded players to do that. Of course ideally everyone would find like minded person to run content with, but this isn't the reality and different kind of players with different kind of mentalities end up sometimes running content together (Group finders, Dungeon finders etc.). And I'd assume that these are the situations where the bad shit happens. Especially these are the situations where I want to take DPS of the pedestal. Of course the DPS still needs to be within the margin for error and in most cases it probably is, but people still get to hear about it. And there are probably going to be other issues that the party has which they should focus on instead of focusing so hard on DPS from the get-go. I could expand this to that players focus too hard on the Meta all together, not just DPS, which leads to unnecessary exclusion of everything off meta.
As for ACTs in AOC. In the previous posts I explained why I don't support them in AOC, and nothing has changed since then. But in general, I can see the use they have.
I still don't understand why anyone would need a tracker to decide to increase Accuracy.
But, also, in Ashes you can use AOEs and/or stack damage with the Active Skills and Augments of your group mates, so... Accuracy shouldn't be imperative for all builds.
That sounds like poor and lazy design for an RPG.
I would expect Rangers and Rogues to be relying on high Accuracy and Evasion in any case.
A Mage would be more likely to have high Intelligence and rely on AOEs and Blink.
A Tank would be more likely to rely on Shields rather than Evasion (though there are Evasion Tanks for Tanks who wish to rely on Evasion... it's just up to each indidual player character). And melee classes should not be required to have high Accuracy.
I mean... those stats should be meaningful for specific builds, sure... but you shouldn't need to rely on combat trackers to figure that out.
I'll answer your question here directly, but not without first pointing out that the above is flawed for many reasons - some of which I'll go through after answering your question as written - however, I'd prefer a response based on the flaws I point I rather than the answer to the flawed question.
In your above example, with no further context, the person with higher DPS is better.
Sure, they may have not done the encounter mechanics properly, but so what?
Imagine an encounter mechanic, something simple like a repeating AoE that deals damage as long as you are in range. I may wait out of range for the AoE to finish, meaning I miss out on more DPS time. The other player that did more DPS may go back in sooner. This means they get hit by the AoE, and it may mean the healer in their group has more work to do.
However, that doesn't make them a worse player than me, it makes them a better player. They are assessing how much damage they can sustain from the AoE, how much the healer can heal them, etc. Taking all of that in to account, they were able too increase their DPS. That is literally the sign of a good player, not a bad player.
Sure, they could have died - but they didn't. They did the thing they planned on doing properly. If they did die, then the argument could be made that they are a worse player - but their DPS also wouldn't be higher than mine.
Now to add some context back to the above scenario.
First, neither of the above players would be picked over the other - not in a raid guild at least.
Assuming you have both already joined said guild, it is in the guilds best interest for both players to get as much raid time as possible.
If you are about to raid and have 41 players online where you need 40, you aren't just going to not take the player with the lowest DPS - that player is the player most in need of practice and experience, and so is the most likely to be taken along.
What most guilds will do is ask if anyone wants to sit out for the day - players sometimes log on as to not disappoint their friends, even if they have something else they would rather do - giving them the option to leave for the night knowing theybhavent let anyone down is BY FAR the best option in this scenario, rather than just not taking along the player that most needs to be there.
Going back to the scenario you presented for the second point I want to add to it, if we assume you are talking about the recruitment process, most guilds will basically ignore performance and recruit based on personality and attitude.
A player that will be a good fit in the guild, make some friends and just generally be positive is better than someone that constantly bitches and moans, or causes guild drama. A few percent of DPS isn't going to change that. To most guilds, 50% DPS isn't going to change that.
As long as both players are willing to always do their best, to always improve, and are aware of the eventual expectations we have, then it is 100% a matter of personality, not performance. We are recruiting someone to join the guild potentially for years to come - we have time to work on performance later.
When it comes to the context of an actual guild, there is no argument against combat trackers.
Now, if we are talking pick up groups and raids, all of the above stops mattering. In a pick up raid, the raid leader is looking for performance today, not performance for years to come. Their priorities have shifted.
This is why you opting to pick WoW as an example game is perfect. That game has it's LFR system - basically an automated system for forming raids. This leaves the raid leader in a position where the best thing they can do is look for performance right now. Personality doesn't matter at all - they have x raid spots to fill, and need the best people they have access to, who know the content in those spots. Nothing else matters in a pickup raid.
To make this situation even worse, in WoW, the game will happily replace any raid member that you boot out of the raid.
Essentially, the problem in regards to this content in WoW is that the system asks raid leaders to treat raid members as disposable - if someone isn't up to standard just boot them and the game will replace them. The issue there isn't that the raid leader can tell if someone is not up to standard, the issue is that the game will replace that player for them. Remove that function, and raid leaders stop treating raid members as disposable,
Again, this is why my suggestion is to make trackers in Ashes a guild function. This takes it out of the hands of pick up raids, but leaves it in the hands of guilds.
I’ve never seen an MMO with a decent raiding scene without them. Not one.
It’s like saying we shouldn’t have a UI because it’ll be able to see my character. It’s ridiculous.
"I can't figure out what to do without third party telling me what to do."
Tell us you dont know what a combat tracker does without telling us you dont know what combat tracker does.
A combat tracker does not and can not tell you what to do.
Again you are missing the point, or you agree you can do everything without a combat tracker and figure things out with a game having the same difficulty (technically increased since you have no handicap).
I must be missing the point then.
So, for clarification, what us the point you were trying to make by claiming a combat tracker does a thing that a combat tracker can not do?
Most noobs who raid just get mad when the raid wipes and start yelling. Those are the people who don’t use parsers to check the logs to figure out what happened.
At the higher end parsers are indispensable for figuring out mechanics. Anyone who just uses one for highest dps and that’s it has never raided at a high level.
More information is always better than less. The people who are against them I’m guessing haven’t done much raiding and think raiding is about watching a video to tell you what’s going on and copying someone else’s strategies, strategies made by those who use parsers.
Combat tracker and parsing adds nothing to the game, not having it doesn't change the fundamentality of the game. Seeing more information does not suddenly add to a game and make content more difficulty.. The only thing the tool does is it make easier by giving you more information in a easier way so you know better how to race through content without doing the leg work yourself.
Effectively not viewing your teammates skills, dps, etc does not suddenly make PvE easier is the point. Meaning all the difficulty for pve remains, if not more since it requires more work on your side to figure things out.
It's the players who don't rely on parsers who are fine with using trial and error to find a viable strategy with their group mates.
In any good RPG, you should not need to be focused on numbers to find a winning strategy.
Especially if the devs did not provide parsers.
These are not the same statements.
The only thing about these two statements that is the same is that both indicate a total lack of understanding as to what combat trackers actually do.
Because i keep hearing comments you can't have hard content without trackers, that they need them for end game. So i view it as a over reliance on them with the assumption there is no hard pve content if they don't exist when having them or not does not have an exact effect on the actual gameplay in a sense. If you have it on or not it changes nothing in the challenge you have to overcome.
Yeah, so this is a total lack of understanding on your part again.
As I said a page or so ago, imagine you are a math teacher and you are writing your class an exam.
The questions you ask of your students will be vastly different if you allow calculators vs if you do not allow calculators. A good teacher will write enough questions that are just hard enough for students at the expected level to be able to answer them correctly within the time frame.
If a calculator is expected to be used, this means those questions can be harder, can be required to be more precise (answer to the 5th decimal instead of the first), there can be more of them, etc. Basically, the expectation a teacher can place on their class in an exam with a calculator is higher than what they can expect without one.
Now, both are valid things to test students on, but they are actually very different from each other.
An exam without a calculator is more to show basic understanding, whereas with a calculator is to show an on depth understanding.
There is an argument to be made that an exam question could be written asking students to solve an in depth equation. This is technically true, however the exam would need to exist of a single question, where as with a calculator 10 or more variants of the same question could be asked so that students are required to demonstrate a full understanding of the subject matter.
The same is true MMO content.
Top end content is designed to test player.
Content designed without the use of trackers in mind has to follow the same basic path as questions in an exam without a calculator. They need to either be simpler, have more room for error, or be significantly fewer in number.
Now, by wanting a combat tracker, I am saying both of the above should exist. There should be content that is a solid challenge to people jot wanting to use a combat tracker, but there also should be content that goes in to the kinda of depths where you do need a combat tracker.
Further, by saying Intrepid should build a tracker in to Ashes, I am saying they can actually make it so players running content designed without a tracker in mind simply dont have access to said tracker - for that content. A first party tracker is literally the only way this will ever happen.
By not wanting a combat tracker, you are saying only one of the above should exist.
Further to that, the argument you are making that combat trackers make content easier supposes only one of the above to exist. Your argument is basically that students shouldn't have calculators in exams because they may use them in exams not designed for them, and is totally ignoring exams that are designed for them to be present.
it really deosn't amtter how you try to explain it the basis is the same i have a complete understanding. Hense why i said
Effectively the content is too hard for you so you need a means to cheat so you can do it. This allows you to rush though content quicker and more easily. Without your tools you need to spend more time figuring things out through trial, error, experience and learning. Meaning that content will last longer as well as it takes longer before people can beat it.
Again the content doesn't change it just becomes more difficult for more people. You are simply trying to twist it to try to make a argument that you need it. Sorry to say games are not calculus and you can't compare the two, people can handle difficult content and overcome the challenge with time with game related content.
Either you are calling the developers of this game stupid, or you do not have a complete understanding of this topic.
My assumption is that your understanding of this topic is so poor that you don't even grasp how the above quote is you calling Intrepid developers stupid.
You are putting words in peoples mouths that is you indirectly trying to call other people stupid don't lump me in with your insults thank you.
Without those things added the gameplay does not change. Nothing you say can change that fact because it doesn't directly effect what the mobs/ AI does.
In order for your statements here to be true, you either have to assume that Intrepid develoers are unable to do that, or eyou have to not know what you are talking about.
There is no other situation where you can state the above.
You really don't get it, having a third party tool has 0 direct effect. If you remove the tool the content is there in the same form and shape. Nothing changes and had nothing to do with additional content.
What you are saying is because people have tools that give them an ADVANTAGE developers need to adjust things as the game is being made easier since players don't need to figure things out or they figure it out at an extreme fast pace.
There is 0 reason to twist those together as one. If tools are removed the game is in the exact same form and does not change, you simply have a harder time figuring things out.
I'm still not sure if you think Intrepid developers are stupid, or if you simply don't know what you are talking about.
So, think back to when you take on top end content, before it has ever been killed by anyone. It doesn't matter what game we are talking about, because every game does the same thing.
If you think back to this content (that I am *sure* you have participated in), you'll remember that there are really small changes made to encounters daily.
This is the developer of the game fine tuning the content.
this has to happen on live servers for top end content, because developers of MMO's have no way at all of working out how powerful a full raid of players in their game will be. This is because top end raiders are significantly better players than developers, and often actually know more about the games combat system than any individual developer.
So, what developers do is they release the content harder than they think they need to make it, and they then fine turn it based on how hard players find it. This "harder than they think they need" often ends up with encounters on live servers that are literally unable to be killed.
So, it players have more trouble killing an encounter, the developers turn it down much more. If players have less trouble, if they are close to killing it, then it is turned down less - or perhaps not at all (or perhaps tuned up).
So, if players are using combat trackers, the content will be tuned harder.
I know you will want to say "well, Intrepid could just not tune content to guilds with combat trackers" - because of course that is what you will say. Thing is, Intrepid have no way of knowing who is and who isn't using a tracker if they don't create a first party tracker. They simply cant just ignore guilds that are using a tracker.
So, if we are assuming you know all of the above (objective facts, by the way), then you are saying Intrepid are incapable of tuning content.
This is why I am unsure if you are just talking about things you know nothing at all about (my assumption, to be honest), or if you are calling Intrepid incompetent.
Respectfully can you stop staying stupid and intrepid develops in the same sentence, its highly disrespectful. Keep your own thoughts to yourself. What they do I trust the game they make at the end, if you want to be negative / childish don't use me in any post with your insult towards them.
You literarily will not read what I am saying third party has no direct effect on what happens in the gameplay that is a fact. You do not gain more gear suddenly, your skills do not suddenly get different effects. The entire gameplay plays the same (unless we are talking about hacks obviously).
Do not inject people use third party anyway (even if it is against TOS) to try to skew the point I'm trying to make because you simply can't accept reality and are trying to skate around to make yourself seem right.
If I'm talking about people using things against TOS that will be another discussion and not what I'm talking about here so please don't bring that up as a point.
If you have nothing to say on my point or have a desire to change it, you are simply just trying to avoid answer properly and making things up.
If you agree with me that the develoeprs at Intrepid are indeed not stupid, then that's great, we can assume the alternative and move on.
Now on to this part.
No where in this thread has anyone (yourself included) said that a combat tracker means players suddenly gain more gear. I literally have no idea where this point you are talking about here came from (I know you are saying it doesn't happen, I just have no idea *why* you are saying it doesn't happen).
What I have said is as per the previous post. To reiterate;
For top end content, developers create content, test it for bugs on the test server, release to the live server, then tune based on player progress in order to achieve the desired difficulty.
Now, It is that last step that you seem to either not be aware of, or assumed Intrepid wouldn't or couldn't do (you have since clarified that you believe Intrepid are competent, meaning we can now simply assume you were unaware of this step).
What this means is that if top end guilds are using a combat tracker, then that content will be tuned based on progress of guilds using combat trackers - regardless of whether Intrepid take that in to account or not.
Now, the above is my point here, and you seem to be disagreeing with it. I am not sure what aspect of this you are disagreeing with, as you keep going off on random tangents that make no sense (such as the above tangent about getting more gear).
So please, let me know which of the above basic set of objective facts it is you disagree with so we can continue this discussion.
My assumption is that you want the discussion to assume top end guilds won't be using a tracker. The issue there is that we can't really talk about combat tracker use and it's impact on the games content if we are discussing things on the assumption that no one is using combat trackers. I have to assume you can see how pointless such a discussion would be - the answer would obviously be that if no one is using a combat tracker, combat trackers will not have any impact.
However, since top end guilds will be using trackers, it makes no sense at all to assume that top end guilds would not be using them. I mean, you accused me above of not being able to accept reality, but the reality is that people will be using trackers, and that will not be against the ToS (the ToS can not prevent me doing things on a computer that the game client is not on, and it is dead easy to run a combat tracker on a second computer, a smartphone or even just a raspberry pi).
So, do we want this discussion to be about the real world where trackers are being used, developers are tuning content based on player progress and thus based on tracker use, or do you want this discussion to accommodate some factitious world that you wish to inhabit?
Ya you are arguing thin air and running in circles to keep boosting thread..... OBVIOUSLY using a third party or tracker doesn't give you more gear. When you use a a tracker it does not effect the content in the game why can you not understand this stop trying to arguing other facts.
ALL YOU GET IS INFORMATION, it does NOT make combat harder, it does not make combat easier, it does not change content in the game.
You are literarily making things up to argue I'm not talking about people breaking TOS stop talking about that in my post. Stop talking about that and also saying you suddenly can view dmg of your team when you aren't given any of that information.
Again if you continue to argue on this tos / rule breaking where they said they are not allowing it you are wasting both our time.
Rather than throwing a tantrum like this, why not instead form an argument against what I am actually talking about?
I have explained to you how things actually are, how it works in the real world. I am not arguing "what if's", nor am I arguing scenarios with some specific set of conditions. I am simply stating how things are.
If you cant form a debate against that, why are you continuing to argue?
You have repeatedly tried to make the argument that a combat tracker does not alter the content. This is something we agree on - and I have never said it does. What I have said is the developers tune content based on player progress on content. If players progress faster than the developers thought, they will tune that content to be harder.
From that point, I actually cant tell if you are trying to suggest that people using combat trackers wont progress on that content faster or not. It is at this point that your argument is seeming to fail to be coherent.
If you are arguing that combat trackers will not allow guilds to progress faster on this content, I'm fairly sure I can find quotes of you saying you dont like combat trackers because it allows players to.progress through content faster, which would lead us to a bit of an impasse.
If what you are trying to say to my above point about Intrepid tuning content is that we shouldnt assume people are using combat trackers, cool, you go off and assume that. If you are assuming no one will use a combat tracker, you have no reason to be posting in this thread.
If you are assuming something else, which with how incoherent your points are right now may indeed be the case, then I'm happy to discuss what ever it is.
The thing is, any point you may have had has been completely lost in your actual rambling and tantrums of your last few posts.
Also, yes, the combat tracker I have right now will allow me to see the damage output of those in my raid, as well as their healing in and out, damage taken etc. It will give me as much information on them as it gives on me.
Note; as I said, that is the tracker for Ashes I have now.