DPS Meter Megathread

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halbarz

I said it before but: If you need a DPS meter to be good at your class then you are the issue and not the game.
You should get good by trail and error, try stuff out see what feels good and apply it.

This is part of playing an MMO, trail and error. risk vs reward, see where you failed, and learn from it. Change your tactic, gear, or even skill setup based on your own finding.

Learn, apply, try .. repeat.

GazerGrazer

Neurath wrote: »

You won't gear your character from being AFK in a Raid. You would either have to craft your own gear or be hopeful the crafters aren't aware you're an AFKer. What incentive is there to arm an AFKer? I'd charge AFKers very high prices if they expect to be carried by my Raid Teams or have Items crafted for them.

I was exaggerating. I'll avoid all the mechanics. I'll DPS the boss to an extent. All while I watch Netflix or talk to my friends. Steven Sharif has stated many times there needs to be winners and losers, but it seems this is another game that will try to hide who the losers are.

Not being allowed to join a group because your DPS is low should motivate you to increase your DPS. It'll allow you to communicate with players who are performing better than you and ask for advice. Yes, it allows the players who earned the bragging rights the right to brag, but what is that bad? Why is competition bad? It's only at the very high end (WoW's "Cutting Edge") environment, where players get benched for low DPS. In most cases, you're just talking shit to your friends about how you out performed them, or they out performed you. Friendly competition is good, and important, especially for MMOs. The damage meter is a good friendly competition, and should be in the game.

Songcaller

I really doubt Ashes will hide who the losers are. There are Guild Rankings for Sieges and Guild Wars, there are Player Rankings for Arena. There will be Caravan PvP, Naval PvP and citizens. Reputations will grow in a natural fashion, not because a DPS Meter states whether someone is good or not, but, because actions will count. We want applications which enhance the experience, not applications which detach the experience.

Genaro

As much as DPS meters helps the player, with a quantitative numerical measurement, to improve their skills rotation, combos, etc., it also facilitates the game to gravitate to use optimization as a rule, not as a tool.

META and min-maxing are inevitable. They will always exists, rather you like it or not. But these are suppose serve as tools, not as rules. When you have the extreme optimization as a rule, you just funnels down just a couple of combinations, throwing in the garbage all of the other possible interesting combinations that the game has, with a little chance to make a comeback once the META changes. And that's what 'hardcore' PvE players have been doing in the past years to speedrun the endgame content, in some of the most popular MMORPGs. When you have a high difficulty goal like that, it's fair to try to improve every minimal detail that can help you to get to your goal, so these people who embrace this ideal must have to give up in personal preference in order to reach the objective. What is not fair is when you create a toxic culture around it, in which you push this same behavior to all of your player base, when most of it are just trying to have fun in the game, not accomplishing something as difficult. So the 'normal' people who really likes to play something interesting or/and unique, feel pressured to give up their own preference playstyle just so they can have a place in a group for they being able to play some content, instead of playing the game in a 'normal' pace but actually enjoying doing it with your choice.

I'm not saying that without a DPS meter people won't be able to tell which class combinations, skills combos, etc., is the best, but it will certainly slows down the process of creating a META, by having just a qualitative measurement. Plus, as Ashes will be a new game in the neighbourhood, it will take a long time to stabilish a META, since the game have several multiple combinations possible, with many variables to consider, and even more difficult if the devs keep bringing balance patchs and new content.

Atama

halbarz wrote: »

I said it before but: If you need a DPS meter to be good at your class then you are the issue and not the game.
You should get good by trail and error, try stuff out see what feels good and apply it.

This is part of playing an MMO, trail and error. risk vs reward, see where you failed, and learn from it. Change your tactic, gear, or even skill setup based on your own finding.

Learn, apply, try .. repeat.

That’s ridiculous.

Back in WoW, during WotLK my guild was trying to get through end game raids and was falling short. We used DPS meters to see who was having trouble keeping up and it turned out to be myself and another Rogue.

So we talked about gear, and what skills we were using and how we were using them. I made some changes, tried out new things on practice dummies, made more changes, etc. I felt pretty confident (so did my buddy, the other Rogue) and things went much better the next time around. We learned, improved, and it was a great experience.

Damage meters made that happen. Without them there would be no way to tell who was lagging and by how much, and no good way to measure and test how we were doing. All the stuff you talk about was made possible because of the meter. You’re arguing for it and don’t even realize it.

I know that a game can survive without it; many MMOs I’ve played do fine without one. And sure, some people might look at a meter and decide to kick out and give up on someone who isn’t doing well. But that’s not a meter issue, that’s an asshole issue. Meters don’t make people jerks, they reveal them to be jerks.

halbarz

Atama wrote: »

halbarz wrote: »

I said it before but: If you need a DPS meter to be good at your class then you are the issue and not the game.
You should get good by trail and error, try stuff out see what feels good and apply it.

This is part of playing an MMO, trail and error. risk vs reward, see where you failed, and learn from it. Change your tactic, gear, or even skill setup based on your own finding.

Learn, apply, try .. repeat.

That’s ridiculous.

Back in WoW, during WotLK my guild was trying to get through end game raids and was falling short. We used DPS meters to see who was having trouble keeping up and it turned out to be myself and another Rogue.

So we talked about gear, and what skills we were using and how we were using them. I made some changes, tried out new things on practice dummies, made more changes, etc. I felt pretty confident (so did my buddy, the other Rogue) and things went much better the next time around. We learned, improved, and it was a great experience.

Damage meters made that happen. Without them there would be no way to tell who was lagging and by how much, and no good way to measure and test how we were doing. All the stuff you talk about was made possible because of the meter. You’re arguing for it and don’t even realize it.

I know that a game can survive without it; many MMOs I’ve played do fine without one. And sure, some people might look at a meter and decide to kick out and give up on someone who isn’t doing well. But that’s not a meter issue, that’s an asshole issue. Meters don’t make people jerks, they reveal them to be jerks.

I think first of all we all have to realize that WoW and Ashes are not the same game. So in WoW it helped you and your guild this is also because Raids are the end game. Not saying you are, but DPS meters might reveal jerks ! but the moment they become a standard in the community it also makes a lot more people become jerks.

For a game that is so community-driven and impacted by it a DPS meter would only damage the game.

I do still stand by my opinion as I have done it myself countless times. Trail and error, with a good guild you will work together figure out what went wrong, analyze gear together, discuss the pain points in a fight, and what could be done to counter it. Non of this requires an addon but teamwork, communication, insight and skill.

WMC51

Dps race fights are one of the problems that make people need dps meters. If the content scales how ive heard no need to.max and instead make the character you want.

Want to test your damage? Go kill the same thing over and over and time it. There's your damage meter.

Khronus

GazerGrazer wrote: »

I heard there isn't going to be a damage meter allowed in this game. I think this is a mistake. Damage meters allow you to know how you're performing in comparison to other people of your class. Increasing my DPS is basically where I get all my enjoyment out of PvE encounters. Does anyone else feel this way?

My perspective is this, I like DPS meters because as a guild leader, it allows me to help players to min/max their class. It creates a level of competition between players during raids/groups and allows the community to set a bar for themselves on how to improve. Having the tool in place for these things should be in the game, if not then as an add on. I don't see this hurting anyone at all unless someone plans to be lazy and not get "caught" being lazy.

halbarz

Not having a DPS meter evens the game for everyone, yes some will stand out but that will make them popular on a server as they might have perfected their build by trial and error.

Having a DPS meters puts pressure on a lot of people to compete, a lot of people would ignore some of the other features and it would fuel toxicity no matter what as whatever your beliefs are it fuels elitism.

Adding a DPS meter after launch will anger a lot of players and might make them leave, impacting the game.

So why add one? the game is fair and open for everyone to play however he or she wants. If you want to be the best test your builds, play around with it.

Shaladoor

The last time I really *needed* a damage meter was in WoW, mythic progression on Orgozoa. It was a hard DPS check and it was clear that some changes needed to be made.

Outside of that, I haven't really seen any *need* for a dps meter. Most of the content outside of a cutting edge raid environment doesn't need a dps meter, or healing meter. It has its uses, but isn't needed. I personally just find them very distracting. As a player, I find it more enjoyable to be focused on what's happening right in front of me than in a small window in the bottom that's comparing my numbers to everyone else's.

Plus, I can't stand those players that love to link the meters in chat.

Again, I understand how they can be useful but in most cases, I just find them distracting.

WMC51

We raided the first 10+ years of MOORPGs and cleared content without meters. So definitely not anything that is needed.

Atama

halbarz wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

halbarz wrote: »

I said it before but: If you need a DPS meter to be good at your class then you are the issue and not the game.
You should get good by trail and error, try stuff out see what feels good and apply it.

This is part of playing an MMO, trail and error. risk vs reward, see where you failed, and learn from it. Change your tactic, gear, or even skill setup based on your own finding.

Learn, apply, try .. repeat.

That’s ridiculous.

Back in WoW, during WotLK my guild was trying to get through end game raids and was falling short. We used DPS meters to see who was having trouble keeping up and it turned out to be myself and another Rogue.

So we talked about gear, and what skills we were using and how we were using them. I made some changes, tried out new things on practice dummies, made more changes, etc. I felt pretty confident (so did my buddy, the other Rogue) and things went much better the next time around. We learned, improved, and it was a great experience.

Damage meters made that happen. Without them there would be no way to tell who was lagging and by how much, and no good way to measure and test how we were doing. All the stuff you talk about was made possible because of the meter. You’re arguing for it and don’t even realize it.

I know that a game can survive without it; many MMOs I’ve played do fine without one. And sure, some people might look at a meter and decide to kick out and give up on someone who isn’t doing well. But that’s not a meter issue, that’s an asshole issue. Meters don’t make people jerks, they reveal them to be jerks.

I think first of all we all have to realize that WoW and Ashes are not the same game. So in WoW it helped you and your guild this is also because Raids are the end game. Not saying you are, but DPS meters might reveal jerks ! but the moment they become a standard in the community it also makes a lot more people become jerks.

For a game that is so community-driven and impacted by it a DPS meter would only damage the game.

I do still stand by my opinion as I have done it myself countless times. Trail and error, with a good guild you will work together figure out what went wrong, analyze gear together, discuss the pain points in a fight, and what could be done to counter it. Non of this requires an addon but teamwork, communication, insight and skill.

Of course they’re not the same game. And Ashes might be fine without it; I’ve said many games do fine without it. You’re dead wrong that meters make people jerks; they were already jerks and would be jerks without it.

Oh you’re not the ideal race/class combo? Kick.

Oh, you haven’t done this dungeon before and want to learn? Not while I’m here. Kick.

Your class isn’t FOTM right now, I need winners. Kick.

DPS meters certainly empower jerks but they are going to be small-minded, selfish, intolerant misanthropes without it.

A DPS meter won’t damage the game. It will make it a lot harder for those trying to improve themselves. It’s like driving without a speedometer; you have to guess how fast you’re going, and you can still do it by feel and sometimes it might not matter too much but you will probably miss it at some point.

I don’t get this major opposition to them. It’s practically Luddite behavior. Again, it might not be essential but it’s a useful tool that can help a lot and you don’t have to have an irrational fear of it.

RahkstarRPG

95% of content in ALL MMOs doesn't need dps meters. Sure there are bosses here and there with hard enrage mechanics, but they are the exception, not the rule. Most other content can be cleared without being perfectly efficient with your dps.

The problem with dps meters is that it pushes people to be perfectly efficient with their dps, and demand others be perfectly efficient with their dps, even when it isn't actually necessary to clear the content. Dps meters are one of if not the main driving force(s) behind a stringent meta where only certain classes are accepted in raids. It leads people to solely focusing on dps as the benefit a dps-role player can bring to the group, which may not be wholly appropriate in a game like AoC, where there may be some form of hybrid support many classes can provide, the benefit of which can't be properly measured by meters.

Rhaelah

@WMC51 Man, you seem to be the voice of pure reason everywhere I go lol. Hopefully people will understand how meters arent a good thing once they get in game and figure out how to play a game without tools. Its a lot more fun, wouldn't you agree?

Songcaller

If you equate all Raid Bosses in Ashes as a DPS Race, you'll be in for a rough time. If the Ashes Team do succeed and create subsequent Bosses harder based on your previous encounter, it is naïve to believe every Raid Boss will require high DPS. A DPS Meter isn't going to assist you in these instances. It will be reactions, communication and skill. Not a DPS Race, in fact if you blitz through the first boss with stomping DPS I would expect the next Boss to resist the massive DPS Surge, not accept it and bend over.

We do not know the Raid Designs yet, saying a DPS Meter will be useful without knowledge of the Raids is folly.

WMC51

Rhaelah wrote: »

@WMC51 Man, you seem to be the voice of pure reason everywhere I go lol. Hopefully people will understand how meters arent a good thing once they get in game and figure out how to play a game without tools. Its a lot more fun, wouldn't you agree?

I always wanted to be a game deaigner but here I am at a sales desk.

GazerGrazer

I just don't understand your guys fear of a DPS meter. Have you guys been kicked from a group because of bad DPS? I've never kicked someone from my raid group because of bad DPS. I've never been kicked from a raid group because of bad DPS.

When I go into a raid encounter that is easy enough to where optimal DPS doesn't matter, I still want the DPS meter. I want to be able to see how I'm doing compared to the other players. If everyones pulling 5k DPS and I'm pulling 2k DPS, I want to know so I can improve.

People are always going to bar others from joining dependent on some standard. If there's no DPS meter, they're just going to say you're not allowed to come because you're items aren't high enough level, you don't have the achievement of killing this boss, no one has ever heard of you, or you don't have the right food buff. There's always something. No DPS meter isn't going to change that.

No DPS meter does ensure there is no reason to strive for a better rotation. No reason to try to optimize your build. No reason to put any risk/reward toward your character. The best part is, even if you do try to optimize your character, there is no way of even telling.

Balrog21

Been playing mmos since EQ, never used one never wanted one....what fun is this mess when you have your whole screen filled with this mess.

WMC51

I've seen plenty of casual players put off by DPS meters including my wife.

RahkstarRPG

GazerGrazer wrote: »

No DPS meter does ensure there is no reason to strive for a better rotation. No reason to try to optimize your build. No reason to put any risk/reward toward your character.

Besides, you know... all of those things still exist, you just don't have numbers to flex over.

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