A good way to figure out rotations is in dungeons. Whilst farming your hopefully trying to figure out ways to kill mobs faster.
1
Options
xXBelocXxMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A number of years ago I was GM of a rather large guild in Rift. We never ran meters. We would have "fun-runs" in 5 mans and 10 mans and intentionally not kill certain bosses. We would use them as practice and teaching tools for newer players or anyone in general that wanted to work on there "raid skills".. We would get the boss to 15-20% or so and then reset. Talk about what we did and then try something different. After a 3-4 resets we would then kills the boss and move on the the next dungeon or call it a night. People enjoyed this cause it allowed them to not only work on there own "skills" but also learn how to be a part of a team efficiently and it wasent done by watching numbers go across the screen, it was done by actually doing.. Call it O.J.T.
yup against it, don't want it, don't want to have to feel like I NEED to have add ons to make things "Easier" for me. Sometimes things being simpler is not a bad thing.
Forrest Gump replied “Stupid is as stupid does”, meaning that a person should be judged by his actions, not his appearance. Similarly, when you are evaluating a seller target, although appearances are important at the outset, it is more important to evaluate the seller's actions.
1
Options
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I am not against a meter, I’ve really benefited from them in the past.
But for me the ideal is if the game doesn’t need them. I’ve played games where if you can’t objectively measure your progress you are screwed out of any chance at endgame content. It’s not an issue of players being elitist, it’s about the developers making content that you can’t beat without them.
A good way to figure out rotations is in dungeons. Whilst farming your hopefully trying to figure out ways to kill mobs faster.
This is great Daedrik, thanks for sharing. I think with you knowing what your class/spec rotation that is the most powerful on WoW prior to max level and already ironed out theory-crafting makes it easier to still achieve good damage when the meters are off, but the meters and damage themselves can be such a distraction from the actual encounter and not focusing too heavily on them can actually increase your capability! Just because you can do good damage doesn't mean you can't cause a wipe because of not paying attention to the mechanics of the encounter, so damage isn't everything. I'm not against meters, but I think if there is a way to figure out what feels most strong like target dummies in Nodes or through dungeon mobs, it would be beneficial to support the "no addons" and "no damage meters" decision. People want to optimize and improve their ability to be an asset to a group and verify it with variety instead of just what their gear reveals.
I think no DPS or threat meters will support immersion and reduce elitist toxicity. But, it will be harder to flex your individual capability too and may put pressure on gear sets over skill level, which could be negative.
My hope is that as stated they will not have meters or addons in the launch for some time, but eventually allow at least user interface addons so people can have more creative UI setup than what comes pre-baked.
I really do hope Steve Sticks with his statement “ this game won’t be everyone” He and the devs have a good idea and are on a good path imo. All of my favorite games are coming together as one, a very exciting moment for the genre, let’s play the game first before we say what’s needed lol
I really do hope Steve Sticks with his statement “ this game won’t be everyone” He and the devs have a good idea and are on a good path imo. All of my favorite games are coming together as one, a very exciting moment for the genre, let’s play the game first before we say what’s needed lol
Agree, I want him to stick to his vision and not fold for the masses, even if it's something I would love. SO far his vision is great and I sooooo cannot wait to play this game.
I really do hope Steve Sticks with his statement “ this game won’t be everyone” He and the devs have a good idea and are on a good path imo. All of my favorite games are coming together as one, a very exciting moment for the genre, let’s play the game first before we say what’s needed lol
Seems like he has a vision, and I respect the heck out of that. Who knew taking the best parts of different games and combining them would be so popular?
Me and my friends used to always pray and joke around about game designers coming together and making a love child of a game... we’ve been waiting for about 10 years... hopefully the wait is over lol
This is probably the weakest possible excuse to not have a combat tracker I have ever seen.
You are still making use of years worth of data from combat trackers, and probably years worth of experience using them. The rotations for you to put to use have been fine tuned to a ridiculously high degree and you have had practise working those rotations. The build you use has been specifically detailed as to exactly how it should be put together, and the value of every item has been fully scrutinised.
All of that was done with combat trackers.
The fact that you made use of all of that objective data, and then turned it off at the last minute doesn't mean combat trackers aren't needed, all it means is many people don't have clue what combat trackers are used for.
Many of the people asking for combat trackers in Ashes are actually quite happy if they don't offer up real time information during fights, as that is literally the least important aspect of their function.
Wasn’t an argument for not having one, it was just me saying I understand now why people don’t want or need them. Would I have optimized my dps with out using the meter for years?? Most likely, just would have taken longer and more effort. And let’s be honest there is no raider on wow who doesn’t live on icyveins or wowhead for there guides... so the top 1 % like method figure out the rotations and people copy them. The meter is literally there for ego purposes let’s not kid our selves.
The meter is literally there for ego purposes let’s not kid our selves.
For people that run them during content, I totally agree.
This is why I don't care if they can be run during content or not.
I can tell you now, as one of those top 1%, we will not be posting the best builds, the best "rotations", the best anything, unless we can objectively check our results. If we post a thing, we are putting that thing to our name, to our reputation. WIthout having the ability to objectively see how it is, we just won't.
Without a combat tracker, the builds that are going to be posted are not by the 1%, they are by players that would fit in the 25-50% bracket.
A lot of games have suffered because of this and some saw a drop in player base because they get bored.
Ashes will see fewer people pick up the game based on this decision.
Every serious PvE guild is now looking elsewhere.
I'm just gonna jump in for a sec... I never ever got the impression that there was going to be structured tier-driven progression raiding in this game. Why would they assume it would?
And honestly for every player who thinks they can't play the game without them, there are 10 more who pick it up because it's refreshing that it's not catering to the same old mentality.
That would be due to this quote;
There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.
That kind of says that this was the intention.
That intention seems to no longer be the case.
PvE guilds saw this, put the game on their radar, and have since taken it back off.
I’m glad you or the 1% won’t be posting builds or rotations. This leads to cookie cutter builds that everyone follows, I hope when people find good builds they keep it to themselves that way if someone finds a way to play there character how they want and its fun for them they aren’t forced into a build that isn’t fun for them bc the raiding scene demands and requires them to. The 1% dedicate themselves to being the best and I commend them for there hard work and hours of crunching numbers. But the 1% control how the game is played bc of this, and honestly I’m just tired of that way of gaming. Too each his own I guess.
I’m glad you or the 1% won’t be posting builds or rotations. This leads to cookie cutter builds that everyone follows
That is their fault.
We post builds for specific situations, peopel follow them blindly in all situations.
People are still going to post builds, and others are still going to follow them blindly. The only difference is that those builds won't be as good.
If you honestly think that no combat tracker won't mean people won't post builds or that people not wanting to create their own won't follow them, I'm actually not sure what to tell you.
The 1% don't control how the game is played, the develoeprs do, All the 1% do is figure out that information and then pass it on to the 99%. If there is an issue with that, take it up with the people that designed the game, not the messanger.
I think there can be a middle ground with dps meter... like have a fighting dummy you can put in your player owned house or in town that calculates dps , but not have it anywhere else. This makes it so it can’t be bothersome in raids, while also letting the elitist figure out which skills / rotation etc is the best
No one is arguing that you need meters to kill content. Everyone knows you can kill content without meters. Monkeys can clear content. People want meters to be the best of the best. All this "just do it in the raid, trial and error!" is convoluted. Yeah, sure that helps your casual soccer mom guild clear the raid in a month, but what about people who want to rush world firsts? What about people who want to be the number 1 player of their class? What about people who want to speedrun the raids?
You NEED combat trackers for the OBJECTIVE DATA that they show and represent if you want to be that player. No one is arguing that you need them just to slowly and carefully clear content at your own pace.
Also you haven't stated anything about the raid. It could have been normal mode baby shit that you've had on farm for 3 months or it could be mythic progression raiding (which I highly doubt) and that difference is staggering.
I really do hope Steve Sticks with his statement “ this game won’t be everyone” He and the devs have a good idea and are on a good path imo. All of my favorite games are coming together as one, a very exciting moment for the genre, let’s play the game first before we say what’s needed lol
Agree, I want him to stick to his vision and not fold for the masses, even if it's something I would love. SO far his vision is great and I sooooo cannot wait to play this game.
Completely agree. I hope we can find ways to strengthen his resolve towards this toxic tool.
"Magic is not a tool, little one. It is a river that unites us in its current."
No one is arguing that you need meters to kill content. Everyone knows you can kill content without meters. Monkeys can clear content. People want meters to be the best of the best. All this "just do it in the raid, trial and error!" is convoluted. Yeah, sure that helps your casual soccer mom guild clear the raid in a month, but what about people who want to rush world firsts? What about people who want to be the number 1 player of their class? What about people who want to speedrun the raids?
You NEED combat trackers for the OBJECTIVE DATA that they show and represent if you want to be that player. No one is arguing that you need them just to slowly and carefully clear content at your own pace.
If you are the best player, it will show on your gear, your status, your PvP kills. Not on some random number obtained through non varied environment.
The skills will have numbers, you will have a chat window telling your combat log, plenty of information.
No one is arguing that you need meters to kill content. Everyone knows you can kill content without meters. Monkeys can clear content. People want meters to be the best of the best. All this "just do it in the raid, trial and error!" is convoluted. Yeah, sure that helps your casual soccer mom guild clear the raid in a month, but what about people who want to rush world firsts? What about people who want to be the number 1 player of their class? What about people who want to speedrun the raids?
You NEED combat trackers for the OBJECTIVE DATA that they show and represent if you want to be that player. No one is arguing that you need them just to slowly and carefully clear content at your own pace.
If you are the best player, it will show on your gear, your status, your PvP kills. Not on some random number obtained through non varied environment.
The skills will have numbers, you will have a chat window telling your combat log, plenty of information.
No one is arguing that you need meters to kill content. Everyone knows you can kill content without meters. Monkeys can clear content. People want meters to be the best of the best. All this "just do it in the raid, trial and error!" is convoluted. Yeah, sure that helps your casual soccer mom guild clear the raid in a month, but what about people who want to rush world firsts? What about people who want to be the number 1 player of their class? What about people who want to speedrun the raids?
You NEED combat trackers for the OBJECTIVE DATA that they show and represent if you want to be that player. No one is arguing that you need them just to slowly and carefully clear content at your own pace.
If you are the best player, it will show on your gear, your status, your PvP kills. Not on some random number obtained through non varied environment.
The skills will have numbers, you will have a chat window telling your combat log, plenty of information.
This clearly reveals you're not interested in knowing your performance, just in bragging to other about numbers. Exactly what Steven is trying to avoid.
Glad we don't have DPS Meters not Addons.
Also, have a wonderful day and wish you all the best in the world!
But remember, you master you class using it first.
I wholeheartedly disagree, its possible to master your class without a meter at all. It's just that the definition of master changes because "master" is a relative term.
I don’t agree, devs make a game and the content, the 1% tell people how to best play the content which then turns into the only acceptable way to play the game. I believe this is why wow was so great back in 2005, there was very little information on it except for quests (Thotbot is only thing I remember on it) people just played the game and when they accomplished something it was that much greater... BUT I do understand people wanting to be the best bc that’s how they like to play games. But imagine being the best with out using Addons that tell you when to move or what bottons to push at the perfect time, or using combat logs... YOU WOULD BE A LEGEND, I think that is the challenge Steve is presenting In this game. The question is are the 1% up to the challenge.
No, me calling you out on your stupidity has nothing to do with my argument. I played in a top 100 world guild in WoW and have done mythic progression for years. I've played suboptimal classes/specs and I've played top tier and everything in between. Combat trackers may not be for everyone, and they are not needed, and I don't care if this game won't have them because I'm going to play it regardless.
But these piss poor arguments against it just drive me crazy. It shows that most people against combat trackers have no idea what they are talking about. Steven's only reasoning is "I don't like it and it doesn't fit with my vision" and that's 100% fine. But to say "Hey dude, I've played with combat trackers for years, simmed my dps for years, scoured raid logs for years, worked with the rotations/specs that 1% players have posted on the internet for years, and I did kinda good on a raid night with my meter turned off so meters are bad mmmmkay!" is stupid. It's not a good argument, especially when we don't know what kind of content he was doing. As a mythic raider I've never "stared at the dps meters and ignored boss mechanics" like OP is claiming he used to do before turning them off. Hell I don't even have them on my screen until the encounter is over.
And it shows when @noaani has made very good examples of how we could implement them into the game that would harm no one (like making it a specific guild perk that only works for those guildies and no one else) and people still have issues with it.
Comments
But I get what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense. I'm just saying the DPS meter can be a good to have in your toolbox too.
Forrest Gump replied “Stupid is as stupid does”, meaning that a person should be judged by his actions, not his appearance. Similarly, when you are evaluating a seller target, although appearances are important at the outset, it is more important to evaluate the seller's actions.
But for me the ideal is if the game doesn’t need them. I’ve played games where if you can’t objectively measure your progress you are screwed out of any chance at endgame content. It’s not an issue of players being elitist, it’s about the developers making content that you can’t beat without them.
If Ashes isn’t like that, cool. Awesome.
This is great Daedrik, thanks for sharing. I think with you knowing what your class/spec rotation that is the most powerful on WoW prior to max level and already ironed out theory-crafting makes it easier to still achieve good damage when the meters are off, but the meters and damage themselves can be such a distraction from the actual encounter and not focusing too heavily on them can actually increase your capability! Just because you can do good damage doesn't mean you can't cause a wipe because of not paying attention to the mechanics of the encounter, so damage isn't everything. I'm not against meters, but I think if there is a way to figure out what feels most strong like target dummies in Nodes or through dungeon mobs, it would be beneficial to support the "no addons" and "no damage meters" decision. People want to optimize and improve their ability to be an asset to a group and verify it with variety instead of just what their gear reveals.
I think no DPS or threat meters will support immersion and reduce elitist toxicity. But, it will be harder to flex your individual capability too and may put pressure on gear sets over skill level, which could be negative.
My hope is that as stated they will not have meters or addons in the launch for some time, but eventually allow at least user interface addons so people can have more creative UI setup than what comes pre-baked.
https://Twitch.tv/Eradal
https://Twitter.com/Eradal_
Agree, I want him to stick to his vision and not fold for the masses, even if it's something I would love. SO far his vision is great and I sooooo cannot wait to play this game.
Seems like he has a vision, and I respect the heck out of that. Who knew taking the best parts of different games and combining them would be so popular?
You are still making use of years worth of data from combat trackers, and probably years worth of experience using them. The rotations for you to put to use have been fine tuned to a ridiculously high degree and you have had practise working those rotations. The build you use has been specifically detailed as to exactly how it should be put together, and the value of every item has been fully scrutinised.
All of that was done with combat trackers.
The fact that you made use of all of that objective data, and then turned it off at the last minute doesn't mean combat trackers aren't needed, all it means is many people don't have clue what combat trackers are used for.
Many of the people asking for combat trackers in Ashes are actually quite happy if they don't offer up real time information during fights, as that is literally the least important aspect of their function.
This is why I don't care if they can be run during content or not.
I can tell you now, as one of those top 1%, we will not be posting the best builds, the best "rotations", the best anything, unless we can objectively check our results. If we post a thing, we are putting that thing to our name, to our reputation. WIthout having the ability to objectively see how it is, we just won't.
Without a combat tracker, the builds that are going to be posted are not by the 1%, they are by players that would fit in the 25-50% bracket.
That would be due to this quote; That kind of says that this was the intention.
That intention seems to no longer be the case.
PvE guilds saw this, put the game on their radar, and have since taken it back off.
We post builds for specific situations, peopel follow them blindly in all situations.
People are still going to post builds, and others are still going to follow them blindly. The only difference is that those builds won't be as good.
If you honestly think that no combat tracker won't mean people won't post builds or that people not wanting to create their own won't follow them, I'm actually not sure what to tell you.
The 1% don't control how the game is played, the develoeprs do, All the 1% do is figure out that information and then pass it on to the 99%. If there is an issue with that, take it up with the people that designed the game, not the messanger.
You NEED combat trackers for the OBJECTIVE DATA that they show and represent if you want to be that player. No one is arguing that you need them just to slowly and carefully clear content at your own pace.
Completely agree. I hope we can find ways to strengthen his resolve towards this toxic tool.
I heard a bird ♫
If you are the best player, it will show on your gear, your status, your PvP kills. Not on some random number obtained through non varied environment.
The skills will have numbers, you will have a chat window telling your combat log, plenty of information.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/231474#Comment_231474
You are so cute it hurts.
This clearly reveals you're not interested in knowing your performance, just in bragging to other about numbers. Exactly what Steven is trying to avoid.
Glad we don't have DPS Meters not Addons.
Also, have a wonderful day and wish you all the best in the world!
I wholeheartedly disagree, its possible to master your class without a meter at all. It's just that the definition of master changes because "master" is a relative term.
But these piss poor arguments against it just drive me crazy. It shows that most people against combat trackers have no idea what they are talking about. Steven's only reasoning is "I don't like it and it doesn't fit with my vision" and that's 100% fine. But to say "Hey dude, I've played with combat trackers for years, simmed my dps for years, scoured raid logs for years, worked with the rotations/specs that 1% players have posted on the internet for years, and I did kinda good on a raid night with my meter turned off so meters are bad mmmmkay!" is stupid. It's not a good argument, especially when we don't know what kind of content he was doing. As a mythic raider I've never "stared at the dps meters and ignored boss mechanics" like OP is claiming he used to do before turning them off. Hell I don't even have them on my screen until the encounter is over.
And it shows when @noaani has made very good examples of how we could implement them into the game that would harm no one (like making it a specific guild perk that only works for those guildies and no one else) and people still have issues with it.