I never once said players shouldn't be called out and told when they're doing something wrong, I said your approach was unnecessary, because it is. Obviously players should be expected to take their own share of the load in the group and do it correctly.
I think you are missing the actual point of all of this.
The point is that I said you could use a combat tracker to tell who is getting hit by the fiery shit. I also highlighted what would be a last resort as it was the most visual means of illustrating the point that the tool that you are saying is causing an issue is actually the tool that is the remedy to that issue. That is the point.
In terms of linking in guild chat, as I said, it would be after telling that player in private, several times. Again, I didn't think this would need to have been clarified as it should go without saying.
If I am linking a players poor performance to the guild as a one off, it means I am one pull away from booting the player from the raid, and thus the guild (something I have had to do only once, in almost 20 years).
However, I will make a point on some encounters that warrant it to have a parse that shows either the most or least damage that a specific attack does (content depending). Players can and do use this kind of thing to compete in the same way they use DPS to compete.
So, you're backtracking and filling in your gaps and talking nonsense about me missing the point despite going off on a tangent yourself. This is why I just plainly dislike reading anything you have to say because you're so bullheaded. What a pointless conversation, I'm not even the person you're trying to convince that combat logs are important because as I said, I'm completely impartial.
This is boring and I'm not going to continue this and respond again, It's also just making me cringe a little bit every single time you say something about a game you dislike because you think that you're on a pedestal above the rest for not playing it.
No, I'm just attempting to clarify a statement you are taking well out of context.
I'm not one for shying away from a conversation going off topic, I'm always going to defend my position.
It's not my fault you focused on an unimportant detail - just don't claim people are backtracking when they attempt to clarify something after you take a point off topic.
while playing silk road online a lot of people would bot, because it literally took months on top of months to get anywhere. (still wasn't right though)
I have my own set of rules that I follow.
An example of this may be that I will happily multibox if *I* want to, but I will never play a game in a manner where one keypress results in more than one action.
If I were ever to play WoW (which - other than assisting my brothers guild on raids, I won't and haven't), and decided to multibox, I wouldn't run so many accounts that I needed to use scripts to keep things going - even though WoW allows this as long as you are present at the computer.
I also will not play GW2, as every class' main ability is essentially a toggle, rather than a single cast ability. As such, just playing that game naturally means one keypress gives more than one action - which is against my rules even if not against GW2's.
The fact that Intrepid *may* make rules that are not perfectly compatible with mine is not really an issue for me. I will stick to mine in literally every situation.
@noaani
That's fair, and I wish you the best! But if you get the ban hammer take it with stride. Hopefully it won't come to that and we'll see each other in game. I'll even act as a training dummy for you to parse your DPS off of, legitimately of course
Some have touched on this so I'm just going to come right out and say it.......it doesn't matter if this mechanic is included in AoC or not. Why? Because there will be a 3rd party DPS meter program. I've seen them in other games and AoC will be no different.
About the best AoC can do is not allow it as a 3rd party addon but even then there will be versions that can run independently of the game and analyze the DPS data.
The only up side to this however is that not everyone under the sun will have it readily available. Probably only those people/ guilds concerned with mini/maxing will still use them.
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LethalityMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A lot of games have suffered because of this and some saw a drop in player base because they get bored.
Ashes will see fewer people pick up the game based on this decision.
Every serious PvE guild is now looking elsewhere.
I'm just gonna jump in for a sec... I never ever got the impression that there was going to be structured tier-driven progression raiding in this game. Why would they assume it would?
And honestly for every player who thinks they can't play the game without them, there are 10 more who pick it up because it's refreshing that it's not catering to the same old mentality.
A lot of games have suffered because of this and some saw a drop in player base because they get bored.
Ashes will see fewer people pick up the game based on this decision.
Every serious PvE guild is now looking elsewhere.
I'm just gonna jump in for a sec... I never ever got the impression that there was going to be structured tier-driven progression raiding in this game. Why would they assume it would?
And honestly for every player who thinks they can't play the game without them, there are 10 more who pick it up because it's refreshing that it's not catering to the same old mentality.
I'd said it several times. If there's a DPS meter, I'm forced to use it because the population will demand that DPS threshold for content.
On the other side, I'm always thinking that DPS meters make the game easier and trivializes a lot of encounters.
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LethalityMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'd said it several times. If there's a DPS meter, I'm forced to use it because the population will demand that DPS threshold for content.
On the other side, I'm always thinking that DPS meters make the game easier and trivializes a lot of encounters.
Yea, if they exist they are truly not "optional".
But I guess I was commenting more on the expectation that there would be the kind of content that would require these kinds of tools, and I never got the impression there was.
There are raids, but that doesn't mean they at all fit in the "WoW" mold. In fact I got the opposite impression since there will be raids available or not depending on node progression and different servers.
Outside of this rigid structured type of long-format content, is there really even a need for meters anyway?
I don't think it should be implemented with the exception of within a testing or training arena where you might experiment your abilities on training dummies.
0
xXBelocXxMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Damage meters can be a very toxic thing in MMOs IMO. They can create a player divide that promotes an atmosphere of exclusivity vs inclusivity. But lets look at it from a couple of different perspectives:
Having damage meters to improve your own play: With the damage meter min/maxers have a tool to measure how well there build performs. Change this one skill in a rotation and you get 100 more DPS.. BAM!! This, used purely as tool for ones self betterment is fully acceptable.
Having damage meters to "qualify" players: Here is where the argument gets, deeper. As someone had already pointed out above, a guild could be advertising for DPS saying "40k DPS required". Gear score is also another "measurement" used as everyone wells knows. Here is where the exclusivity comes in. At this point you are telling people that if your not "gud" then you need not apply. To me this is not the purpose of an MMO. MMOs are fundamentally different than something like DOTA or LoL. These games are built around being multiplayer, but dont really focus on lore or cooperative game play outside a small group of people and actually promote competitive gameplay. This perspective can be toxic and can destroy a game from within.
Am I against damage meters in a game? Thats a tough question. My short answer is no but my longer answer is maybe. I have been playing MMOs for probably longer than some of you have been alive. Started back in the BBB days with dial-up MUDs. Circa 1992. I have seen the good and the bad of damage meters as well as many other "tools". Has it ever impacted me personally? No. But then I am a tank. I dont play anything other than a tank so DPS is not a concern for me. As long as I can take it to the face and still keep standing and keep my party from dying.. I am good. ;P But I have seen it impact friends of mine that were actually really good players but were "past" over cause there DPS wasn't quite high enough.. And yes, I have seen, on more than one occasion a group pass up someone who did 35.5k DPS and not 40k. So it does happen in contrast to what someone posted above.
So in closing, I support Stevens decision to not allow meters. I think he is thinking about the community as a whole and not a small sub-set of players that ultimately will drop playing a game over something a petty as "this content is to easy" vs those who continue playing cause the community is one where it allows for friendships to grow and people to escape the daily @%!tstorm that is life.
Dps meters totally ruin the flair and immersivenes (as do popping numbers over mobs) I wanna see the environment and fight monsters, not filling up some colorful bar with an ever raising number.
After reading a couple post about dps meters, I decided to do a little experiment this morning during my guilds raid. I told my GM I wasn’t going to be using dps meter for the raid, he told me if it causes me to slip In dps I was to turn it back on, I said ok deal.
At first I was nervous lol, but bc I played my class for so long and mastered my rotation from leveling and doing dungeons for gear my nerves calmed after the first pull. I started to notice certain mechanics in fights I didn’t before small things that would give away the next step in the fight, certain movements etc. instead of constantly staring at the meter making sure I was at the right numbers, I was able to just play the game and enjoy myself.
Ironically my Gm whispered me and said “ wow this is the best you have parsed in any raid”
It was In this moment I realized what Steve was talking about and I’ve decided I’ll never use one ever again. I will trust my ability and put In the extra work to master my class! Freedom ladies and gentlemen, having no meter gave me FREEDOM.
A good way to figure out rotations is in dungeons. Whilst farming your hopefully trying to figure out ways to kill mobs faster.
1
xXBelocXxMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A number of years ago I was GM of a rather large guild in Rift. We never ran meters. We would have "fun-runs" in 5 mans and 10 mans and intentionally not kill certain bosses. We would use them as practice and teaching tools for newer players or anyone in general that wanted to work on there "raid skills".. We would get the boss to 15-20% or so and then reset. Talk about what we did and then try something different. After a 3-4 resets we would then kills the boss and move on the the next dungeon or call it a night. People enjoyed this cause it allowed them to not only work on there own "skills" but also learn how to be a part of a team efficiently and it wasent done by watching numbers go across the screen, it was done by actually doing.. Call it O.J.T.
yup against it, don't want it, don't want to have to feel like I NEED to have add ons to make things "Easier" for me. Sometimes things being simpler is not a bad thing.
Forrest Gump replied “Stupid is as stupid does”, meaning that a person should be judged by his actions, not his appearance. Similarly, when you are evaluating a seller target, although appearances are important at the outset, it is more important to evaluate the seller's actions.
1
AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I am not against a meter, I’ve really benefited from them in the past.
But for me the ideal is if the game doesn’t need them. I’ve played games where if you can’t objectively measure your progress you are screwed out of any chance at endgame content. It’s not an issue of players being elitist, it’s about the developers making content that you can’t beat without them.
A good way to figure out rotations is in dungeons. Whilst farming your hopefully trying to figure out ways to kill mobs faster.
This is great Daedrik, thanks for sharing. I think with you knowing what your class/spec rotation that is the most powerful on WoW prior to max level and already ironed out theory-crafting makes it easier to still achieve good damage when the meters are off, but the meters and damage themselves can be such a distraction from the actual encounter and not focusing too heavily on them can actually increase your capability! Just because you can do good damage doesn't mean you can't cause a wipe because of not paying attention to the mechanics of the encounter, so damage isn't everything. I'm not against meters, but I think if there is a way to figure out what feels most strong like target dummies in Nodes or through dungeon mobs, it would be beneficial to support the "no addons" and "no damage meters" decision. People want to optimize and improve their ability to be an asset to a group and verify it with variety instead of just what their gear reveals.
I think no DPS or threat meters will support immersion and reduce elitist toxicity. But, it will be harder to flex your individual capability too and may put pressure on gear sets over skill level, which could be negative.
My hope is that as stated they will not have meters or addons in the launch for some time, but eventually allow at least user interface addons so people can have more creative UI setup than what comes pre-baked.
I really do hope Steve Sticks with his statement “ this game won’t be everyone” He and the devs have a good idea and are on a good path imo. All of my favorite games are coming together as one, a very exciting moment for the genre, let’s play the game first before we say what’s needed lol
I really do hope Steve Sticks with his statement “ this game won’t be everyone” He and the devs have a good idea and are on a good path imo. All of my favorite games are coming together as one, a very exciting moment for the genre, let’s play the game first before we say what’s needed lol
Agree, I want him to stick to his vision and not fold for the masses, even if it's something I would love. SO far his vision is great and I sooooo cannot wait to play this game.
I really do hope Steve Sticks with his statement “ this game won’t be everyone” He and the devs have a good idea and are on a good path imo. All of my favorite games are coming together as one, a very exciting moment for the genre, let’s play the game first before we say what’s needed lol
Seems like he has a vision, and I respect the heck out of that. Who knew taking the best parts of different games and combining them would be so popular?
Me and my friends used to always pray and joke around about game designers coming together and making a love child of a game... we’ve been waiting for about 10 years... hopefully the wait is over lol
Comments
So, you're backtracking and filling in your gaps and talking nonsense about me missing the point despite going off on a tangent yourself. This is why I just plainly dislike reading anything you have to say because you're so bullheaded. What a pointless conversation, I'm not even the person you're trying to convince that combat logs are important because as I said, I'm completely impartial.
This is boring and I'm not going to continue this and respond again, It's also just making me cringe a little bit every single time you say something about a game you dislike because you think that you're on a pedestal above the rest for not playing it.
I'm not one for shying away from a conversation going off topic, I'm always going to defend my position.
It's not my fault you focused on an unimportant detail - just don't claim people are backtracking when they attempt to clarify something after you take a point off topic.
An example of this may be that I will happily multibox if *I* want to, but I will never play a game in a manner where one keypress results in more than one action.
If I were ever to play WoW (which - other than assisting my brothers guild on raids, I won't and haven't), and decided to multibox, I wouldn't run so many accounts that I needed to use scripts to keep things going - even though WoW allows this as long as you are present at the computer.
I also will not play GW2, as every class' main ability is essentially a toggle, rather than a single cast ability. As such, just playing that game naturally means one keypress gives more than one action - which is against my rules even if not against GW2's.
The fact that Intrepid *may* make rules that are not perfectly compatible with mine is not really an issue for me. I will stick to mine in literally every situation.
That's fair, and I wish you the best! But if you get the ban hammer take it with stride. Hopefully it won't come to that and we'll see each other in game. I'll even act as a training dummy for you to parse your DPS off of, legitimately of course
Well, I don't see many options for healers at least. You need those bars close to you to monitor HP.
About the best AoC can do is not allow it as a 3rd party addon but even then there will be versions that can run independently of the game and analyze the DPS data.
The only up side to this however is that not everyone under the sun will have it readily available. Probably only those people/ guilds concerned with mini/maxing will still use them.
I'm just gonna jump in for a sec... I never ever got the impression that there was going to be structured tier-driven progression raiding in this game. Why would they assume it would?
And honestly for every player who thinks they can't play the game without them, there are 10 more who pick it up because it's refreshing that it's not catering to the same old mentality.
I'd said it several times. If there's a DPS meter, I'm forced to use it because the population will demand that DPS threshold for content.
On the other side, I'm always thinking that DPS meters make the game easier and trivializes a lot of encounters.
Having damage meters to improve your own play: With the damage meter min/maxers have a tool to measure how well there build performs. Change this one skill in a rotation and you get 100 more DPS.. BAM!! This, used purely as tool for ones self betterment is fully acceptable.
Having damage meters to "qualify" players: Here is where the argument gets, deeper. As someone had already pointed out above, a guild could be advertising for DPS saying "40k DPS required". Gear score is also another "measurement" used as everyone wells knows. Here is where the exclusivity comes in. At this point you are telling people that if your not "gud" then you need not apply. To me this is not the purpose of an MMO. MMOs are fundamentally different than something like DOTA or LoL. These games are built around being multiplayer, but dont really focus on lore or cooperative game play outside a small group of people and actually promote competitive gameplay. This perspective can be toxic and can destroy a game from within.
Am I against damage meters in a game? Thats a tough question. My short answer is no but my longer answer is maybe. I have been playing MMOs for probably longer than some of you have been alive. Started back in the BBB days with dial-up MUDs. Circa 1992. I have seen the good and the bad of damage meters as well as many other "tools". Has it ever impacted me personally? No. But then I am a tank. I dont play anything other than a tank so DPS is not a concern for me. As long as I can take it to the face and still keep standing and keep my party from dying.. I am good. ;P But I have seen it impact friends of mine that were actually really good players but were "past" over cause there DPS wasn't quite high enough.. And yes, I have seen, on more than one occasion a group pass up someone who did 35.5k DPS and not 40k. So it does happen in contrast to what someone posted above.
So in closing, I support Stevens decision to not allow meters. I think he is thinking about the community as a whole and not a small sub-set of players that ultimately will drop playing a game over something a petty as "this content is to easy" vs those who continue playing cause the community is one where it allows for friendships to grow and people to escape the daily @%!tstorm that is life.
At first I was nervous lol, but bc I played my class for so long and mastered my rotation from leveling and doing dungeons for gear my nerves calmed after the first pull. I started to notice certain mechanics in fights I didn’t before small things that would give away the next step in the fight, certain movements etc. instead of constantly staring at the meter making sure I was at the right numbers, I was able to just play the game and enjoy myself.
Ironically my Gm whispered me and said “ wow this is the best you have parsed in any raid”
It was In this moment I realized what Steve was talking about and I’ve decided I’ll never use one ever again. I will trust my ability and put In the extra work to master my class! Freedom ladies and gentlemen, having no meter gave me FREEDOM.
It can be daunting, but, the risk and reward are great lol
Virtue is the only good.
But remember, you master you class using it first.
But I get what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense. I'm just saying the DPS meter can be a good to have in your toolbox too.
Forrest Gump replied “Stupid is as stupid does”, meaning that a person should be judged by his actions, not his appearance. Similarly, when you are evaluating a seller target, although appearances are important at the outset, it is more important to evaluate the seller's actions.
But for me the ideal is if the game doesn’t need them. I’ve played games where if you can’t objectively measure your progress you are screwed out of any chance at endgame content. It’s not an issue of players being elitist, it’s about the developers making content that you can’t beat without them.
If Ashes isn’t like that, cool. Awesome.
This is great Daedrik, thanks for sharing. I think with you knowing what your class/spec rotation that is the most powerful on WoW prior to max level and already ironed out theory-crafting makes it easier to still achieve good damage when the meters are off, but the meters and damage themselves can be such a distraction from the actual encounter and not focusing too heavily on them can actually increase your capability! Just because you can do good damage doesn't mean you can't cause a wipe because of not paying attention to the mechanics of the encounter, so damage isn't everything. I'm not against meters, but I think if there is a way to figure out what feels most strong like target dummies in Nodes or through dungeon mobs, it would be beneficial to support the "no addons" and "no damage meters" decision. People want to optimize and improve their ability to be an asset to a group and verify it with variety instead of just what their gear reveals.
I think no DPS or threat meters will support immersion and reduce elitist toxicity. But, it will be harder to flex your individual capability too and may put pressure on gear sets over skill level, which could be negative.
My hope is that as stated they will not have meters or addons in the launch for some time, but eventually allow at least user interface addons so people can have more creative UI setup than what comes pre-baked.
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Agree, I want him to stick to his vision and not fold for the masses, even if it's something I would love. SO far his vision is great and I sooooo cannot wait to play this game.
Seems like he has a vision, and I respect the heck out of that. Who knew taking the best parts of different games and combining them would be so popular?