When your actually engaged in the topic it's because those you are engaging with are looking for an echo chamber.
Clearly, you have not been following this topic very long.
Clearly I've been following it long enough to know that intrepid has said officially on multiple occasions that there will not be a DPS meter and they will not be allowing third party programs. Somehow you haven't managed to pick this up with all the hardcore time you've spent looking into the topic. Instead if conceding, your response is that you'll just cheat and break the games rules. You apparently have a problem not getting what you want. Quit beating the dead horse, it's dead. Very, very, very dead.
2
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I completely agree @Daedrik45 , most the time a DPS meter will be not only toxic to the community but yourself, it will give you an unhealthy addiction of staring at numbers rather than enjoying the immersive experience. The only time I can see DPS meters becoming handy is when you need to decrease DPS to a particular thresh hold, however like anything this just comes down to understanding your class, moves and rotations to adjust damage accordingly.
I am a firm believer of leaving addons such as DPS meters and gear inspectors as it removes the challenge from the game.
Since when have numbers been unhealthy?
Of all the arguments I've seen people make against combat trackers - this has to be the oddist.
I spent a decade raiding in EQ2, and during raids my screen only had my hotbars, my target, my implied target (or targets target) and the buffs I had on me.
I had a combat tracker running, but there was never a need to have it showing on screen during a raid. If need be, I could look at things at the end of the night, but if that is how I want to spend my time, that should be my perogitive.
Unhealthy in the sense that many people when raiding focus more on their name getting higher on the dps list than actually doing what they need to do mechanically. The term unhealthy is more aimed towards guilds which will have a dedicated person whos job is to monitor, analyse and pull up anyone lacking in numbers.
This can be in many forms however I found DPS meters are the most common, I to have been raiding for a very long time and have played majority if not all mmorpgs to have released for western society.
I personally choose to ignore it and occasionally use it as a reference if DPS needs to decrease however some will ignore raid calls, mechanics or over threat a target just to try and get the highest in DPS. This is the individuals problem yes. So the term unhealthy is more of a loose term and not meant to be taken literally.
I've even said a number of times (going back to last year) that this is Stevens game, and so it is Stevens decision.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with his decision, and I am sure he wouldn't expect any one player to agree with every decision he makes - not a player that is capable of thinking for themself, at least.
My response is that *I* will break the rules, it is that there will be multiple combat trackers out there that work for this game, regardless of what I do or do not do, and as such I may as well make use of them.
I've even said a number of times (going back to last year) that this is Stevens game, and so it is Stevens decision.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with his decision, and I am sure he wouldn't expect any one player to agree with every decision he makes - not a player that is capable of thinking for themself, at least.
My response is that *I* will break the rules, it is that there will be multiple combat trackers out there that work for this game, regardless of what I do or do not do, and as such I may as well make use of them.
Why wouldn't I?
No one said you had to agree. I said that you haven't picked up that it's decided. Which is pretty apparent here. And you wouldn't use them because you should have respect for the community and game your joining.
Unhealthy in the sense that many people when raiding focus more on their name getting higher on the dps list than actually doing what they need to do mechanically. The term unhealthy is more aimed towards guilds which will have a dedicated person whos job is to monitor, analyse and pull up anyone lacking in numbers.
This can be in many forms however I found DPS meters are the most common, I to have been raiding for a very long time and have played majority if not all mmorpgs to have released for western society.
I personally choose to ignore it and occasionally use it as a reference if DPS needs to decrease however some will ignore raid calls, mechanics or over threat a target just to try and get the highest in DPS. This is the individuals problem yes. So the term unhealthy is more of a loose term and not meant to be taken literally.
That is an issue with the guild, not with the combat tracker.
If players are not paying attention to the mechanic that they need to pay attention to get through the encounter, then that guilds leadership is at fault. It doesn't matter what that player is doing instead of paying attention to the mechanic that they should be paying attention to, it is always an issue of guild leadership.
If someone in a raid is ignoring calls, that is a serious issue that should be dealt with on the spot. If it ever happened to me on one of my raids (in a manner where it was not just a bad day for the player involved), that player wouldn't be in the guild much longer.
Fortunately, I have never had issues with people that think their own performance is more important than the raids performance - we tend to weed those people out during recruiting.
I will always say that DPS meters should be implemented with care.
Make it a function of training dolls in freeholds or something for everyone, and implement it in raid/dungeon groups for team/raid leaders to look through after the fight.
I've even said a number of times (going back to last year) that this is Stevens game, and so it is Stevens decision.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with his decision, and I am sure he wouldn't expect any one player to agree with every decision he makes - not a player that is capable of thinking for themself, at least.
My response is that *I* will break the rules, it is that there will be multiple combat trackers out there that work for this game, regardless of what I do or do not do, and as such I may as well make use of them.
Why wouldn't I?
No one said you had to agree. I said that you haven't picked up that it's decided. Which is pretty apparent here.
I have picked up that it has been decided.
Again, that doesn't mean I need to agree, nor that I need to stop discussing the topic.
After reading a couple post about dps meters, I decided to do a little experiment this morning during my guilds raid. I told my GM I wasn’t going to be using dps meter for the raid, he told me if it causes me to slip In dps I was to turn it back on, I said ok deal.
At first I was nervous lol, but bc I played my class for so long and mastered my rotation from leveling and doing dungeons for gear my nerves calmed after the first pull. I started to notice certain mechanics in fights I didn’t before small things that would give away the next step in the fight, certain movements etc. instead of constantly staring at the meter making sure I was at the right numbers, I was able to just play the game and enjoy myself.
Ironically my Gm whispered me and said “ wow this is the best you have parsed in any raid”
It was In this moment I realized what Steve was talking about and I’ve decided I’ll never use one ever again. I will trust my ability and put In the extra work to master my class! Freedom ladies and gentlemen, having no meter gave me FREEDOM.
The thing that you dont see here is, that you used the DPS meter as a learning help which developed into a crutch.
I always tell people to use the meter to learn their rotations, to hone their reactions and to check them after fights.
A dps meter should never be read in the middle of a fight.
The funniest thing for me once was to see where my damage came from as a combat rogue in Warlods of Draenor.
1. Melee Hits
2. Off-hand melee hits
3. Sinister Strike
4. Multihit procs
@noaani
You're right you go ahead and beat the dead horse then. If it helps you through till the game comes out who am I to stop you from venting. Since you understand that the decision has been made I'll stop taking your posts seriously as you know they won't actually go anywhere.
Combat Logs are the only thing necessary. In the end, the only use for DPS meter is for a contest between party members. IMO it takes someone out of the game by a notch as you are only watching numbers and highly efficient performance, not whether the boss dies or not.
You're right you go ahead and beat the dead horse then. If it helps you through till the game comes out who am I to stop you from venting. Since you understand that the decision has been made I'll stop taking your posts seriously as you know they won't actually go anywhere.
Debate and discussion is always worth it.
If you have something to actually add to the topic, I welcome it.
You're right you go ahead and beat the dead horse then. If it helps you through till the game comes out who am I to stop you from venting. Since you understand that the decision has been made I'll stop taking your posts seriously as you know they won't actually go anywhere.
Debate and discussion is always worth it.
If you have something to actually add to the topic, I welcome it.
Debate and discussion with purpose are always worth it. Debating and discussing something that's already been debated and discussed to a finalized end is complaining about the conclusion. My addition to the topic is no, it's a terrible idea that is categorically against the direction and design of the game ( As it is against the rules). The only other thing I would add is an applaud to intrepid for being so patient on this, and allowing forum members to literally state that they plan to cheat in the game. It takes a lot to stand by your word, and it says alot for the company.
My addition to the topic is no, it's a terrible idea that is categorically against the direction and design of the game
How is it against the games design?
One of the central tennents of this game is player agency. A key aspect of player agency is that players should have the information they need to make a decision. Not having access to a combat tracker takes away access to information players need to make decisions.
You could argue that a tool akin to DBM goes against the design direction of Ashes, but having access to information is absolutely consistent with everything else in the game.
It's literally in the ruleset, a direct design and decision.
That doesn't mean it is consistent with the rest of the game.
No what it does mean is that it is part of the game, a designed, and decided part of the game. Player agency is not the same as data metrics. One is the ability to make personal decisions within the games outlining design and direction, the other is explicitly excluded from this design to prevent min max mentality that would limit that player agency and health of the gane. Not that players won't still min max but the choice to do so will be personal and take work (which is a good thing)and time(alot of time) and not be a societal pressure pushed onto all players. If you allow it anywhere into the non back alley cheating portion of the game you'll create this pressure, removing said player agency.
@noaani can you please explain to me what a combat tracker does compared to a dps meter. I want to fully understand your point of view and hopeful we can find common ground maybe even a compromise
can you please explain to me what a combat tracker does compared to a dps meter. I want to fully understand your point of view and hopeful we can find common ground maybe even a compromise
A combat tracker is a more accurate term to refer to what some people (mostly just those from WoW) call a DPS meter.
It is taking in to account the fact that it can track anything at all in an encounter (and many things not to do with combat) that you want it to - all you need to do is adjust a few properties.
A "DPS meter" is almost always only set to show DPS, which in most games, on most encounters, isn't actually that useful otehr than measuring the output of DPS classes. Other than on encounters with a specific design element, DPS itself is not important.
As an example, these tools can fairly easily be altered to show how much damage players in the raid are taking from a specific ability, so rather than competing in DPS, players in the raid can compete with each other to see who can take the least amount of damage from the lava - or what ever.
Since these tools are so flexible - to people that understand them - calling the DPS meters simply isn't appropriate.
0
KrojakMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited August 2020
Keeping it simple:
No to DPS Meters:
Focus on the fight.
Enjoy the mechanics of the boss.
Keep your eyes off of the interface.
Full immersion.
No screen clutter.
Yes to Damage Reports:
Built into Ashes of Creation, not a mod.
Only available at the end of Boss Fights.
Gives hardcore guilds their tool for improvement.
Gives those that enjoy self improvement their tool.
Competition is fun for some, let them have it.
Provide other useful information (Avoidable damage taken, overhealing done, interrupts missed etc)
Ashes of Creation will be the home to many types of people. Roleplayers will have their tools to enjoy roleplay. PVPers will have all sorts of ways to enjoy their game. Crafters, gatherers and other lifeskillers will play a prominent role in the world. Economic types will have their stock market, designers will have their freeholds to decorate and explorers will have their massive map to discover.
Please give the competitive/self improvement raiding focused types their enjoyment as well.
Comments
I'd be all for that.
People may be surprised to see the date of the first post though - especially if they could also merge in the threads from the old forums.
I assume you're not expecting me to stop or back down from my personal position on the matter. You may be the undead one, but I'm the tireless one.
And hey, changed the profile pic for you!
Clearly I've been following it long enough to know that intrepid has said officially on multiple occasions that there will not be a DPS meter and they will not be allowing third party programs. Somehow you haven't managed to pick this up with all the hardcore time you've spent looking into the topic. Instead if conceding, your response is that you'll just cheat and break the games rules. You apparently have a problem not getting what you want. Quit beating the dead horse, it's dead. Very, very, very dead.
I was talking about DPS meters in general ^^
Unhealthy in the sense that many people when raiding focus more on their name getting higher on the dps list than actually doing what they need to do mechanically. The term unhealthy is more aimed towards guilds which will have a dedicated person whos job is to monitor, analyse and pull up anyone lacking in numbers.
This can be in many forms however I found DPS meters are the most common, I to have been raiding for a very long time and have played majority if not all mmorpgs to have released for western society.
I personally choose to ignore it and occasionally use it as a reference if DPS needs to decrease however some will ignore raid calls, mechanics or over threat a target just to try and get the highest in DPS. This is the individuals problem yes. So the term unhealthy is more of a loose term and not meant to be taken literally.
I've even said a number of times (going back to last year) that this is Stevens game, and so it is Stevens decision.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with his decision, and I am sure he wouldn't expect any one player to agree with every decision he makes - not a player that is capable of thinking for themself, at least.
My response is that *I* will break the rules, it is that there will be multiple combat trackers out there that work for this game, regardless of what I do or do not do, and as such I may as well make use of them.
Why wouldn't I?
No one said you had to agree. I said that you haven't picked up that it's decided. Which is pretty apparent here. And you wouldn't use them because you should have respect for the community and game your joining.
If players are not paying attention to the mechanic that they need to pay attention to get through the encounter, then that guilds leadership is at fault. It doesn't matter what that player is doing instead of paying attention to the mechanic that they should be paying attention to, it is always an issue of guild leadership.
If someone in a raid is ignoring calls, that is a serious issue that should be dealt with on the spot. If it ever happened to me on one of my raids (in a manner where it was not just a bad day for the player involved), that player wouldn't be in the guild much longer.
Fortunately, I have never had issues with people that think their own performance is more important than the raids performance - we tend to weed those people out during recruiting.
Make it a function of training dolls in freeholds or something for everyone, and implement it in raid/dungeon groups for team/raid leaders to look through after the fight.
I have picked up that it has been decided.
Again, that doesn't mean I need to agree, nor that I need to stop discussing the topic.
The thing that you dont see here is, that you used the DPS meter as a learning help which developed into a crutch.
I always tell people to use the meter to learn their rotations, to hone their reactions and to check them after fights.
A dps meter should never be read in the middle of a fight.
The funniest thing for me once was to see where my damage came from as a combat rogue in Warlods of Draenor.
1. Melee Hits
2. Off-hand melee hits
3. Sinister Strike
4. Multihit procs
And I was top damage at the time in mythic.
You're right you go ahead and beat the dead horse then. If it helps you through till the game comes out who am I to stop you from venting. Since you understand that the decision has been made I'll stop taking your posts seriously as you know they won't actually go anywhere.
If you have something to actually add to the topic, I welcome it.
Debate and discussion with purpose are always worth it. Debating and discussing something that's already been debated and discussed to a finalized end is complaining about the conclusion. My addition to the topic is no, it's a terrible idea that is categorically against the direction and design of the game ( As it is against the rules). The only other thing I would add is an applaud to intrepid for being so patient on this, and allowing forum members to literally state that they plan to cheat in the game. It takes a lot to stand by your word, and it says alot for the company.
One of the central tennents of this game is player agency. A key aspect of player agency is that players should have the information they need to make a decision. Not having access to a combat tracker takes away access to information players need to make decisions.
You could argue that a tool akin to DBM goes against the design direction of Ashes, but having access to information is absolutely consistent with everything else in the game.
That doesn't mean it is consistent with the rest of the game.
No what it does mean is that it is part of the game, a designed, and decided part of the game. Player agency is not the same as data metrics. One is the ability to make personal decisions within the games outlining design and direction, the other is explicitly excluded from this design to prevent min max mentality that would limit that player agency and health of the gane. Not that players won't still min max but the choice to do so will be personal and take work (which is a good thing)and time(alot of time) and not be a societal pressure pushed onto all players. If you allow it anywhere into the non back alley cheating portion of the game you'll create this pressure, removing said player agency.
That is a key word in this context.
A decision without information is a guess.
It is taking in to account the fact that it can track anything at all in an encounter (and many things not to do with combat) that you want it to - all you need to do is adjust a few properties.
A "DPS meter" is almost always only set to show DPS, which in most games, on most encounters, isn't actually that useful otehr than measuring the output of DPS classes. Other than on encounters with a specific design element, DPS itself is not important.
As an example, these tools can fairly easily be altered to show how much damage players in the raid are taking from a specific ability, so rather than competing in DPS, players in the raid can compete with each other to see who can take the least amount of damage from the lava - or what ever.
Since these tools are so flexible - to people that understand them - calling the DPS meters simply isn't appropriate.
No to DPS Meters:
Yes to Damage Reports:
Ashes of Creation will be the home to many types of people. Roleplayers will have their tools to enjoy roleplay. PVPers will have all sorts of ways to enjoy their game. Crafters, gatherers and other lifeskillers will play a prominent role in the world. Economic types will have their stock market, designers will have their freeholds to decorate and explorers will have their massive map to discover.
Please give the competitive/self improvement raiding focused types their enjoyment as well.
I'm referring to a system that's built into the game, not a third party mod.
Since this is a game in development, it could be incorporated.
EDIT: Added this detail into the first post for clarity.
There is no need to have anything at all displayed on the screen, or indeed anything that could break the immersion of the encounter.
You act like DPS meters are the only thing that could inform these decisions.