This shouldn't be as much of an issue in Ashes because dungeons and raids are, by design, more dynamic than in typical MMORPGs. Speed runs should be rare because dungeons and raids will usually be changing too much to be able to use cookie-cutter strategies repeatedly.
I'm not so sure all content will always change all that much.
Since content is tied to the nodes around it (purely to the level of the node as far as I am aware), once a metropolis is established, it is absolutely feasible that the node and those around it would stay as is for months on end - meaning the content in that area will stay the same for months on end.
The above said, this won't be the case at the start of the game, nor will it ever be the case further away from the more popular nodes on a given server. Those nodes - and thus the content around them - will change often and so in these areas I do agree that things like that will be less of an issue (or not an issue at all).
However, as a metropolis being taken down is an event that literally changes the shape of the server, I personally don't expect it to happen more than once every 6 months on any given server - not due to any limit other than the difficulty (in terms of material needs and player desire) in actually taking down a metropolis
That's content for max character level, for sure. But, in Ashes, that's not indicative of the end of the game.
This may be a part of the miscommunication or misunderstanding, but end game content does not, despite the name, have to signify the end of the game.
In fact, all good end game content is in itself a progression path (often a horizontal one, though not always), so simply can't all be the end of the game, as there is still progress to be made.
Are higher level players synced for low level dungeons in Archeage?
nope, not at all.
The usual situation is that the high level player tells the new player to wait at the entrance, clears the zone in a few minutes, and then tells the new player to run to the end so they can both get their rewards.
Boring content for both players.
Wow, that's pretty sad. At least in FFXIV the levels are synced so you can't do that.
Yeah, it really was sad.
To me though, that is the story of Archeage, a brilliant game that had incompetent developers and a publisher that didn't understand the importance of reputation.
That being said, the "best" compromise would be an in-game damage meter or DPS meter ONLY next to a target dummy in a very select place in-town, like a class training room.
This is an ok compromise, and is one I'd be happier with than having absolutely nothing.
However, if they had this, I'd want them to add in mechanics that various encounters have so that players can see how a different mechanic or ability that an enemy has affects how they operate against that specific mechanic or ability. It's one thing to know how you operate in a vacuum, but another thing all together to see how you operate under many hundreds of different circumstances.
Because of this, while I'd accept a training dummy based meter, I'd rather a full combat tracker that is n option for guilds to purchase, and only works with other guild members in your group/raid.
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Samiel AurousMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@whitedude31 The DPS meter was already declined by Steven to making an appearance. Reasoning was to keep people from setting a DPS requirement from excluding people from Guilds/raid groups.
I personally like them for the reasons you said earlier but it is one of those things where some guilds abuse the usefulness it can offer to exclude some people. It does contribute to a toxic environment indirectly.
I think it is important to know were you are at so you can get better. You many be having a lot of fun and doing decent damage. But if you do not know how much better you can actually do then you might never get there. For example if you do a raid and another player palying the same class as does 50 percent moredps than you (lets say gear is about same.) That lets you know just how much you could improve.
Thinke Peter said something about parses making the game toxic the I do not want to play with you cause you do not do enough dps. Well really do not see how they can get away from that even if they were no dps meters in game. Toons would just time you to see how long it would take you to kill some monster.
I already posted about this recommended dps for raids should be known. Not talking about being mean. But in raids even dungeuons their is a certain amount of group dps that has to be done or it is a wipe.
So If a player knows what is expected and goes in prepared then more likely to have a positive raid experience.
I played with out a dps meter for a really long time and would get kicked from groups for low dps not having a clue what my dps was or what it should.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited June 2019
Yeah. I still don't necessarily care about how much we could "improve" as long as we're having fun defeating the bosses/content. If we have a low record of eventually finding a winning strategy - that might be a problem.
But, my groups have always found a winning strategy eventually.
Rather than rely on a dps meters, I'd prefer to recognize that when the Tank uses his Winter Hammer ultimate to make his target more vulnerable to Ice attacks, that's the ideal time for the Mages to hit the same target with Ice Prison and Ice Sheet.
Especially if my Mages consider themselves to be Ice Wizards rather than Fire Wizards, I care more about them succeeding with their RP preferences than I do about them having higher DPS if they used Fire spells instead of Ice spells.
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CaelronMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Rather than rely on a dps meters, I'd prefer to recognize that when the Tank uses his Winter Hammer ultimate to make his target more vulnerable to Ice attacks, that's the ideal time for the Mages to hit the same target with Ice Prison and Ice Sheet.
Especially if my Mages consider themselves to be Ice Wizards rather than Fire Wizards, I care more about them succeeding with their RP preferences than I do about them having higher DPS if they used Fire spells instead of Ice spells.
At risk of being off-topic again, I really hope immunities/resistances/(whatever you want to call it) are a thing. If you're fighting a magical ice beast, an ice mage should do little to no damage with out other type of magic boosting spell penetration or lowering the ice beasts natural resistances. Who knows? Maybe the ice mage just ends up making the ice beast more powerful, or it only heals it instead?
I care more about them succeeding with their RP preferences than I do about them having higher DPS if they used Fire spells instead of Ice spells.
While this is perfectly fine for most players on most content, if there is to be content that is to be defeated by a single digit portion of the player base, this kind of thinking doesn't work.
With content that hard, every character in the raid needs to be optimized for the specific encounter. If that optimization isn't a requirement, then more than 10% of the population will kill that content.
Once again, this is where the disconnect here is. You are talking about a tool for power players, but from a non power player perspective. It's like someone not at all interested in RP throwing in their thoughts on a tool specifically designed for RP, or a non-crafter throwing their thoughts in on a tool specifically designed for crafters.
Not every tool is supposed to be for every player. They could well add a system to keep track of in game achievements, and that is something I will never even look at - it is also something I will never post much about as I know others will make use of it as a feature in the game. If the game is going to support the achiever player, then they absolutely should have a system by which to track achievements.
A DPS meter is a tool that is not supposed to be for every player. If any individual wants to run groups or raids without it, that absolutely should be a path that is open to them. On the flip side though, if the game is to support the power player, then it should provide tools that the power player needs.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I understand that a DPS/ACT is a tool for a specific play set, and that not everyone will want to use the tool. However, when other players require you to report out what the tool says in order to do group content, then it is a tool that will be required.
So for me there is a disconnect there. If asked "What is your X-stat during raids?" and "Sorry, I don't use the DPS" is acceptable as an answer, then I don't think anyone here would have an issue with a DPS/ACT being in game. For sure try to find another group that doesn't care as much about one and is still willing to raid, but if the DPS/ACT is optional, then it shouldn't be a requirement to play with others.
Will need to start a no DPS/ACT guild based on the feel of the character and talent.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Once again, this is where the disconnect here is. You are talking about a tool for power players, but from a non power player perspective. It's like someone not at all interested in RP throwing in their thoughts on a tool specifically designed for RP, or a non-crafter throwing their thoughts in on a tool specifically designed for crafters.
Not every tool is supposed to be for every player. They could well add a system to keep track of in game achievements, and that is something I will never even look at - it is also something I will never post much about as I know others will make use of it as a feature in the game. If the game is going to support the achiever player, then they absolutely should have a system by which to track achievements.
A DPS meter is a tool that is not supposed to be for every player. If any individual wants to run groups or raids without it, that absolutely should be a path that is open to them. On the flip side though, if the game is to support the power player, then it should provide tools that the power player needs.
I'm talking about a tool that the devs are planning not to support.
And I'm sharing my view that since the devs plan on not supporting tools like DPS meters, I hope they design and implement mechanics with plenty of support for us to be able to synergize party-member abilities in a more immersive, RP-friendly matter.
We'll have to see how well the power players power-play without support for DPS meters. Apparently, they will play differently in Ashes than they do with DPS meter support.
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GodbrithilMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Alpha One
I very much hope that a Mod API will be published. In my opinion, a Damage Meter alone is indispensable.
If this creates a class society that only takes with it if it can produce a certain damage output - then it's not the damage meter, but the community.
And even without the Damage Meter, the community will exclude "weak" people.
But you should give people enough freedom to decide for themselves if and which mods they want to use.
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
They have said multiple times over the last two years when asked that they have no plans to release the API into the wild. That way leads to hacks and madness. If there is a QOL issue they feel is important, they will add the relevant functionality to the game. Those that think they know better and try to use third-party addons have only themselves to blame when Intrepid takes action on their accounts.
I understand that a DPS/ACT is a tool for a specific play set, and that not everyone will want to use the tool. However, when other players require you to report out what the tool says in order to do group content, then it is a tool that will be required.
I totally agree, however...
I have played many games where pick up raids generally won't let you join unless you can link the achievement you get for clearing the zone the raid is going after. Even in games with DPS meters (and even with full support for Advanced Combat Tracker), people often prefer a yes/no as to whether a player has completed a zone before taking them, and linking the zones achievement is often the easiest way to prove this.
I don't see how this kind of abuse of the achievement system is any different to any possible abuse of an in game combat tracker.
I'm not saying either of these should be removed from the game, I'm saying that both should be in the game, but in a way that reduces the possible abuses.
If a combat tracker was a part of the guild system as I've suggested, pick up or casual raids have no reason to ask what your DPS even is - you can give them a number and if it sounds about right for your class, they have no way of ever checking it. To me, this is how it should be - pick up/casual raids are the entry point in to raiding for many people, and so they should have a low entry barrier.
Raiding guilds would look at new members that have not been in guilds using it as a project rather more than anything else. If someone applies to your guild that hasn't used it, then you take them on with the understanding from both parties that there may be an amount of training involved. This isn't a bad thing - most mid tier raid guilds are happy to provide this training.
However, absolute top end guilds may refuse applicants without having been in such guilds. Thing is, top end guilds like this require proof of raid success anyway - and people with the kind of raid success needed to apply for such guilds will themselves be in guilds using the guild based combat tracker.
To me, this is the perfect solution that totally prevents abuse of a combat tracker built in to Ashes, but allows those that want one and know how to use one the ability to have access to it if they so wish.
And I'm sharing my view that since the devs plan on not supporting tools like DPS meters, I hope they design and implement mechanics with plenty of support for us to be able to synergize party-member abilities in a
I don't see why they should support RP players above power players.
I want both to be equally supported - either support power player on raids, or don't support RP'ers on raids.
Well, actually, I just want both supported - I don't want neither supported.
They have said multiple times over the last two years when asked that they have no plans to release the API into the wild. That way leads to hacks and madness. If there is a QOL issue they feel is important, they will add the relevant functionality to the game. Those that think they know better and try to use third-party addons have only themselves to blame when Intrepid takes action on their accounts.
Despite my insistence on wanting a combat tracker of some fashion, I am as happy as anyone else that Steven won't release the API, or even have combat logs exported (which is actually potentially as powerful a tool in the hands of a good developer).
However, what I am afraid of is that if BOTH Ashes becomes quite popular AND there is no support for an in game combat tracker, someone WILL make something.
Even something as simple as scanning the screen for information can provide entire raids with an advantage in both PvE and PvP. Every game I have ever played lists the damage dealt to and by everyone in your raid in a chat window. This is possible to scan in game, and the information it provides can then be exported to something like Advanced Combat Tracker and analyzed. As that doesn't interact with the game client in any way, game developers and publishers are unable to detect this kind of application. If you don't know a third party add on exists, you don't know which accounts to take action on.
To me, assuming this game is as successful as we all hope it will be, there are two options.
The first is for Intrepid to put in a combat tracker that they have full control over, that all players have access to if they wish to have access to and that gives players enough to make it not worth the energy to develop any additional tools. The second option is to leave it to the players that want such a tool to develop something that even Intrepid have no real control over and no way of detecting.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Idk, showing an achievement that says you were able to clear a specific content I think is less intrusive than someone monitoring a player's play-style and then telling them they are "spec'd" wrong or that they chose a less than optimal progression. Regardless of how I built my character I could potentially still clear the content.
I don't see asking for the achievement as being as bad. If you haven't done the particular raid, you probably don't want to do it the first time with those that are there to power through.
Seems like a better response imo.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don't see why they should support RP players above power players.
I want both to be equally supported - either support power player on raids, or don't support RP'ers on raids.
Well, actually, I just want both supported - I don't want neither supported.
I'm not sure if we're using RP in the same manner, but...
One of Steven's goals is to bring more of the RPG back into the concept of MMORPG.
Power-player raids will be supported - just not with DPS meters and combat trackers.
It's akin to not supporting PvE-focused players with PvE-only servers.
Those playstyles will have to make adjustments.
I expect power-player raiders to still be power-player raiders in Ashes - just without DPS meters and combat trackers.
And, I expect that will significantly reduce people getting kicked from groups for not having the expected DPS output.
I expect how people join "raid guilds" is going to be significantly different in Ashes, specifically because raiding is not just something that becomes a focus at max level because there's not much else to do... and because raids aren't just static content that can be repeated over and over and over again to improve DPS scores.
Mostly I have one issue, and it has been mentioned already: "go read guide about boss".
And that's my major issue with DPS Meters. You have to:
1- Read your class guide, which will be the most efficient at DPS, which will take out any type of input from you, and exploration. Eventually you will just press buttons and achieve highest DPS, having no fun or idea of what you're doing.
2- Read boss guide. You won't figure out anything by yourself.
So, how does a combat tracker help the community?
Omg, you lazy, you're not running CookieButter Spec 1548, you suck, kick from group.
And I will tell you that people WON'T care about your DPS if you don't have top spec, they just won't recruit to party
The only thing ACTs do is make things easier.
I dont think anyone would go on using forbidden addon and being open about it.
It may give a slight advantage theorycrafting things but u would be risking a ban.
"You're seeking for perfection, but your disillusions are leading to destruction.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
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unknownsystemerrorMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A large assumption that many people here seem to be making is that everyone will have access to the same content on a regular basis that will lead to "farming." If Intrepid goes with what they have stated in the past for how they envision content to work, many people will not ever see particular content before it has moved on or changed. Combined with the boss mechanics variation/randomness and other factors posting an achievement or meter information will not be an indication of ability to do content successfully a second time. The progression idea of moving from Rock Candy Mountain to Taffy River to Squirrel Apocalypse may happen on a particular server due to a perfect storm of circumstance, but will not be accessible to everyone due to geographics and other factors. Will we see the same stuff for the first good long while? Sure, but as more and more content is added to their tables to appear under specific circumstances, the "It is Tuesday at 8pm PST, time for my crew to raid Sugarland for the 20th time!" will not be seen. Sugarland will change and morph over time, so when the raid enters and find out the spiders have displaced the undead and a whole new boss is there that they didn't plan to engage. Not every server is going to have static zones where stuff does not change and just because your guild thinks they are owed access to a particular dungeon or raid, does not mean the people that live there are going to let you go waltzing through their territory to pillage as you please. The idiocy of spamming "LF players to go on our raid. We are going for Blessed Blade of the Windseeker run, must have Blessed Blade of the Windseeker achievement to join!" should not develop into a thing.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Sugarland will change and morph over time, so when the raid enters and find out the spiders have displaced the undead and a whole new boss is there that they didn't plan to engage. Not every server is going to have static zones where stuff does not change and just because your guild thinks they are owed access to a particular dungeon or raid, does not mean the people that live there are going to let you go waltzing through their territory to pillage as you please. The idiocy of spamming "LF players to go on our raid. We are going for Blessed Blade of the Windseeker run, must have Blessed Blade of the Windseeker achievement to join!" should not develop into a thing.
Exactly.
And I'd much rather focus on how we get the most bang from the buck with our abilities v spiders and poison/venom rather than v undead and disease, than check to make sure we have the highest DPS possible.
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AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Mechanics should matter and should be overall more important than DPS. However if DPS is too low the fight will last longer and this will tax healers ultimately leading to a loss to attrition. Additionally having DPS check allows for a wider array of possible mechanics to deal with. i would love to see adds spawn that if they aren't killed fast enough they cast a spell the debuff the party or explodes causing high damage potentially resulting in a wipe.
Mechanics should matter and should be overall more important than DPS. However if DPS is too low the fight will last longer and this will tax healers ultimately leading to a loss to attrition. Additionally having DPS check allows for a wider array of possible mechanics to deal with. i would love to see adds spawn that if they aren't killed fast enough they cast a spell the debuff the party or explodes causing high damage potentially resulting in a wipe.
This has been done lots of times, it's nothing new. Focus adds, kill them fast.
The problem is when everything depends on DPS.
I'd love a raid where DPS doesn't matter, but you still depend on time, avoiding rage timer. Maybe execute mechanics that are not related to DPS, where DPS won't matter as long as you don't fail at certain mechanics.
That imo, sounds a lot harder than learning a rotation. Why? Because eventually everyone will be using add ons to let you know when to use your Big CD once that X debuff is active on the enemy.
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AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That imo, sounds a lot harder than learning a rotation. Why? Because eventually everyone will be using add ons to let you know when to use your Big CD once that X debuff is active on the enemy.
Based on current information Addon aren't going to exist, and I hope IS sticks to that.
That imo, sounds a lot harder than learning a rotation. Why? Because eventually everyone will be using add ons to let you know when to use your Big CD once that X debuff is active on the enemy.
Based on current information Addon aren't going to exist, and I hope IS sticks to that.
Well, all of the hardcore players are asking for one. Will Steven resist them? I don't know
I personally really enjoy having DPS meters. For me it's a great and quick way to see how I perform in different situations and to see where I need to improve.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That imo, sounds a lot harder than learning a rotation. Why? Because eventually everyone will be using add ons to let you know when to use your Big CD once that X debuff is active on the enemy.
Based on current information Addon aren't going to exist, and I hope IS sticks to that.
Well, all of the hardcore players are asking for one. Will Steven resist them? I don't know
I doubt it. If the game is designed properly with a customisable UI there shouldn't be any need for addons. In theory no game should require addons to play normally, and usually addons and mods are only implemented to fix problems that the game has.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Mechanics should matter and should be overall more important than DPS. However if DPS is too low the fight will last longer and this will tax healers ultimately leading to a loss to attrition. Additionally having DPS check allows for a wider array of possible mechanics to deal with. i would love to see adds spawn that if they aren't killed fast enough they cast a spell the debuff the party or explodes causing high damage potentially resulting in a wipe.
1: In general, I care about the journey; not how long the battle takes - but I am a hardcore time player and I have time as a luxury.
2: I don’t understand how the length of time will tax healers in Ashes combat. Especially given the wide variety of healing options available.
And the wide variety of ways to avoid damage.
3: Adds spawning within a span of time typically is not about seconds, rather it’s about minutes.
And the strategies for factoring in bursts of power should be more focused on weapon ability combos which lead to ultimates, in addition to augments and class ability combos - rather than relying on DPS checks.
DPS is a byproduct. Shouldn’t really be necessary as a focus. Burst damage will be a class focus, but it shouldn’t need to be gauged by the second to be highly effective.
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AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1: In general, I care about the journey; not how long the battle takes - but I am a hardcore time player and I have time as a luxury.
2: I don’t understand how the length of time will tax healers in Ashes combat. Especially given the wide variety of healing options available.
And the wide variety of ways to avoid damage.
3: Adds spawning within a span of time typically is not about seconds, rather it’s about minutes.
And the strategies for factoring in bursts of power should be more focused on weapon ability combos which lead to ultimates, in addition to augments and class ability combos - rather than relying on DPS checks.
DPS is a byproduct. Shouldn’t really be necessary as a focus. Burst damage will be a class focus, but it shouldn’t need to be gauged by the second to be highly effective.
1. If you don't care about how long the fight lasts that's great, but when it comes to progressing on a fight I'd rather not wipe to attrition 15 minutes into a fight, that's just frustrating and demoralizing.
2. The longer the fight lasts, the more mana the healers have to consume, especially in fight where group wide AoE damage is unavoidable.
3. Normally on encounters where adds are a priority. it either because the adds perform some action that if they are not killed quickly enough will wipe the raid, or adds spawn periodically throughout the fight and will overwhelm the raid if they are not dealt with. The former needs to be dealt with in a matter of seconds. The latter depends on how quickly they spawn and how well your party is able to deal with them being alive for long periods of time. In either case the quicker they're dealt with the quicker the dps can return to damaging the boss.
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AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I think having some puzzle encounters where DPS is irrelevant can be fun, but the vast majority of encounters should have an element of dps. Boss mechanics should be challenging, maintaining strong damage output while avoiding those mechanics makes playing a DPS class challenging.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
1: Then learn to git gud. Easily done without DPS meters.
2: The more what healers have to consume? Mana gets replenished. In Ashes, healers will be doing other stuff besides just healing anyways.
I dunno why there would be unavoidable AoEs if the Tanks have Cover. That says to me that the Tanks should be more concerned about shielding the group than DPS. And I wouldn't need a DPS meter or combat tracker to determine that.
3: I have encountered adds that need to handled quickly - always in a matter of minutes; not in a matter of seconds. Also, that should not necessarily mean those adds have to be killed to be taken care of - especially in a game like Ashes which has abilities like Bulwark and Ice Prison.
In Ashes, where Clerics will be dealing damage rather than just being focused on healing, we shouldn't have to be thinking about damage in terms of seconds. People will focus on dealing with adds quickly so that they can quickly return to damaging the boss in any case.
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well you're no fun :P
Since content is tied to the nodes around it (purely to the level of the node as far as I am aware), once a metropolis is established, it is absolutely feasible that the node and those around it would stay as is for months on end - meaning the content in that area will stay the same for months on end.
The above said, this won't be the case at the start of the game, nor will it ever be the case further away from the more popular nodes on a given server. Those nodes - and thus the content around them - will change often and so in these areas I do agree that things like that will be less of an issue (or not an issue at all).
However, as a metropolis being taken down is an event that literally changes the shape of the server, I personally don't expect it to happen more than once every 6 months on any given server - not due to any limit other than the difficulty (in terms of material needs and player desire) in actually taking down a metropolis
This may be a part of the miscommunication or misunderstanding, but end game content does not, despite the name, have to signify the end of the game.
In fact, all good end game content is in itself a progression path (often a horizontal one, though not always), so simply can't all be the end of the game, as there is still progress to be made.
Yeah, it really was sad.
To me though, that is the story of Archeage, a brilliant game that had incompetent developers and a publisher that didn't understand the importance of reputation.
So much wasted potential in that game...
However, if they had this, I'd want them to add in mechanics that various encounters have so that players can see how a different mechanic or ability that an enemy has affects how they operate against that specific mechanic or ability. It's one thing to know how you operate in a vacuum, but another thing all together to see how you operate under many hundreds of different circumstances.
Because of this, while I'd accept a training dummy based meter, I'd rather a full combat tracker that is n option for guilds to purchase, and only works with other guild members in your group/raid.
I personally like them for the reasons you said earlier but it is one of those things where some guilds abuse the usefulness it can offer to exclude some people. It does contribute to a toxic environment indirectly.
Thinke Peter said something about parses making the game toxic the I do not want to play with you cause you do not do enough dps. Well really do not see how they can get away from that even if they were no dps meters in game. Toons would just time you to see how long it would take you to kill some monster.
I already posted about this recommended dps for raids should be known. Not talking about being mean. But in raids even dungeuons their is a certain amount of group dps that has to be done or it is a wipe.
So If a player knows what is expected and goes in prepared then more likely to have a positive raid experience.
I played with out a dps meter for a really long time and would get kicked from groups for low dps not having a clue what my dps was or what it should.
But, my groups have always found a winning strategy eventually.
Rather than rely on a dps meters, I'd prefer to recognize that when the Tank uses his Winter Hammer ultimate to make his target more vulnerable to Ice attacks, that's the ideal time for the Mages to hit the same target with Ice Prison and Ice Sheet.
Especially if my Mages consider themselves to be Ice Wizards rather than Fire Wizards, I care more about them succeeding with their RP preferences than I do about them having higher DPS if they used Fire spells instead of Ice spells.
At risk of being off-topic again, I really hope immunities/resistances/(whatever you want to call it) are a thing. If you're fighting a magical ice beast, an ice mage should do little to no damage with out other type of magic boosting spell penetration or lowering the ice beasts natural resistances. Who knows? Maybe the ice mage just ends up making the ice beast more powerful, or it only heals it instead?
With content that hard, every character in the raid needs to be optimized for the specific encounter. If that optimization isn't a requirement, then more than 10% of the population will kill that content.
Once again, this is where the disconnect here is. You are talking about a tool for power players, but from a non power player perspective. It's like someone not at all interested in RP throwing in their thoughts on a tool specifically designed for RP, or a non-crafter throwing their thoughts in on a tool specifically designed for crafters.
Not every tool is supposed to be for every player. They could well add a system to keep track of in game achievements, and that is something I will never even look at - it is also something I will never post much about as I know others will make use of it as a feature in the game. If the game is going to support the achiever player, then they absolutely should have a system by which to track achievements.
A DPS meter is a tool that is not supposed to be for every player. If any individual wants to run groups or raids without it, that absolutely should be a path that is open to them. On the flip side though, if the game is to support the power player, then it should provide tools that the power player needs.
So for me there is a disconnect there. If asked "What is your X-stat during raids?" and "Sorry, I don't use the DPS" is acceptable as an answer, then I don't think anyone here would have an issue with a DPS/ACT being in game. For sure try to find another group that doesn't care as much about one and is still willing to raid, but if the DPS/ACT is optional, then it shouldn't be a requirement to play with others.
Will need to start a no DPS/ACT guild based on the feel of the character and talent.
And I'm sharing my view that since the devs plan on not supporting tools like DPS meters, I hope they design and implement mechanics with plenty of support for us to be able to synergize party-member abilities in a more immersive, RP-friendly matter.
We'll have to see how well the power players power-play without support for DPS meters. Apparently, they will play differently in Ashes than they do with DPS meter support.
If this creates a class society that only takes with it if it can produce a certain damage output - then it's not the damage meter, but the community.
And even without the Damage Meter, the community will exclude "weak" people.
But you should give people enough freedom to decide for themselves if and which mods they want to use.
I have played many games where pick up raids generally won't let you join unless you can link the achievement you get for clearing the zone the raid is going after. Even in games with DPS meters (and even with full support for Advanced Combat Tracker), people often prefer a yes/no as to whether a player has completed a zone before taking them, and linking the zones achievement is often the easiest way to prove this.
I don't see how this kind of abuse of the achievement system is any different to any possible abuse of an in game combat tracker.
I'm not saying either of these should be removed from the game, I'm saying that both should be in the game, but in a way that reduces the possible abuses.
If a combat tracker was a part of the guild system as I've suggested, pick up or casual raids have no reason to ask what your DPS even is - you can give them a number and if it sounds about right for your class, they have no way of ever checking it. To me, this is how it should be - pick up/casual raids are the entry point in to raiding for many people, and so they should have a low entry barrier.
Raiding guilds would look at new members that have not been in guilds using it as a project rather more than anything else. If someone applies to your guild that hasn't used it, then you take them on with the understanding from both parties that there may be an amount of training involved. This isn't a bad thing - most mid tier raid guilds are happy to provide this training.
However, absolute top end guilds may refuse applicants without having been in such guilds. Thing is, top end guilds like this require proof of raid success anyway - and people with the kind of raid success needed to apply for such guilds will themselves be in guilds using the guild based combat tracker.
To me, this is the perfect solution that totally prevents abuse of a combat tracker built in to Ashes, but allows those that want one and know how to use one the ability to have access to it if they so wish.
I don't see why they should support RP players above power players.
I want both to be equally supported - either support power player on raids, or don't support RP'ers on raids.
Well, actually, I just want both supported - I don't want neither supported.
Despite my insistence on wanting a combat tracker of some fashion, I am as happy as anyone else that Steven won't release the API, or even have combat logs exported (which is actually potentially as powerful a tool in the hands of a good developer).
However, what I am afraid of is that if BOTH Ashes becomes quite popular AND there is no support for an in game combat tracker, someone WILL make something.
Even something as simple as scanning the screen for information can provide entire raids with an advantage in both PvE and PvP. Every game I have ever played lists the damage dealt to and by everyone in your raid in a chat window. This is possible to scan in game, and the information it provides can then be exported to something like Advanced Combat Tracker and analyzed. As that doesn't interact with the game client in any way, game developers and publishers are unable to detect this kind of application. If you don't know a third party add on exists, you don't know which accounts to take action on.
To me, assuming this game is as successful as we all hope it will be, there are two options.
The first is for Intrepid to put in a combat tracker that they have full control over, that all players have access to if they wish to have access to and that gives players enough to make it not worth the energy to develop any additional tools. The second option is to leave it to the players that want such a tool to develop something that even Intrepid have no real control over and no way of detecting.
I don't see asking for the achievement as being as bad. If you haven't done the particular raid, you probably don't want to do it the first time with those that are there to power through.
Seems like a better response imo.
One of Steven's goals is to bring more of the RPG back into the concept of MMORPG.
Power-player raids will be supported - just not with DPS meters and combat trackers.
It's akin to not supporting PvE-focused players with PvE-only servers.
Those playstyles will have to make adjustments.
I expect power-player raiders to still be power-player raiders in Ashes - just without DPS meters and combat trackers.
And, I expect that will significantly reduce people getting kicked from groups for not having the expected DPS output.
I expect how people join "raid guilds" is going to be significantly different in Ashes, specifically because raiding is not just something that becomes a focus at max level because there's not much else to do... and because raids aren't just static content that can be repeated over and over and over again to improve DPS scores.
People will definitely make something. Whether they will be able to use that something without being banned is something we shall have to wait to see.
And that's my major issue with DPS Meters. You have to:
1- Read your class guide, which will be the most efficient at DPS, which will take out any type of input from you, and exploration. Eventually you will just press buttons and achieve highest DPS, having no fun or idea of what you're doing.
2- Read boss guide. You won't figure out anything by yourself.
So, how does a combat tracker help the community?
Omg, you lazy, you're not running CookieButter Spec 1548, you suck, kick from group.
And I will tell you that people WON'T care about your DPS if you don't have top spec, they just won't recruit to party
I dont think anyone would go on using forbidden addon and being open about it.
It may give a slight advantage theorycrafting things but u would be risking a ban.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
And I'd much rather focus on how we get the most bang from the buck with our abilities v spiders and poison/venom rather than v undead and disease, than check to make sure we have the highest DPS possible.
This has been done lots of times, it's nothing new. Focus adds, kill them fast.
The problem is when everything depends on DPS.
I'd love a raid where DPS doesn't matter, but you still depend on time, avoiding rage timer. Maybe execute mechanics that are not related to DPS, where DPS won't matter as long as you don't fail at certain mechanics.
That imo, sounds a lot harder than learning a rotation. Why? Because eventually everyone will be using add ons to let you know when to use your Big CD once that X debuff is active on the enemy.
Well, all of the hardcore players are asking for one. Will Steven resist them? I don't know
I doubt it. If the game is designed properly with a customisable UI there shouldn't be any need for addons. In theory no game should require addons to play normally, and usually addons and mods are only implemented to fix problems that the game has.
2: I don’t understand how the length of time will tax healers in Ashes combat. Especially given the wide variety of healing options available.
And the wide variety of ways to avoid damage.
3: Adds spawning within a span of time typically is not about seconds, rather it’s about minutes.
And the strategies for factoring in bursts of power should be more focused on weapon ability combos which lead to ultimates, in addition to augments and class ability combos - rather than relying on DPS checks.
DPS is a byproduct. Shouldn’t really be necessary as a focus. Burst damage will be a class focus, but it shouldn’t need to be gauged by the second to be highly effective.
1. If you don't care about how long the fight lasts that's great, but when it comes to progressing on a fight I'd rather not wipe to attrition 15 minutes into a fight, that's just frustrating and demoralizing.
2. The longer the fight lasts, the more mana the healers have to consume, especially in fight where group wide AoE damage is unavoidable.
3. Normally on encounters where adds are a priority. it either because the adds perform some action that if they are not killed quickly enough will wipe the raid, or adds spawn periodically throughout the fight and will overwhelm the raid if they are not dealt with. The former needs to be dealt with in a matter of seconds. The latter depends on how quickly they spawn and how well your party is able to deal with them being alive for long periods of time. In either case the quicker they're dealt with the quicker the dps can return to damaging the boss.
2: The more what healers have to consume? Mana gets replenished. In Ashes, healers will be doing other stuff besides just healing anyways.
I dunno why there would be unavoidable AoEs if the Tanks have Cover. That says to me that the Tanks should be more concerned about shielding the group than DPS. And I wouldn't need a DPS meter or combat tracker to determine that.
3: I have encountered adds that need to handled quickly - always in a matter of minutes; not in a matter of seconds. Also, that should not necessarily mean those adds have to be killed to be taken care of - especially in a game like Ashes which has abilities like Bulwark and Ice Prison.
In Ashes, where Clerics will be dealing damage rather than just being focused on healing, we shouldn't have to be thinking about damage in terms of seconds. People will focus on dealing with adds quickly so that they can quickly return to damaging the boss in any case.