@Vhaeyne Exactly. There is nothing wrong with teaching other players but unfortunately (maybe more community based) it results in calling players trash and kicking them from groups and guilds... lol.
It's much more fun learning the fights than watching videos. It's rare finding gamers like that still around. In regards to the hokey pokey, most gamers just want quick satisfactions and rewards versus earning those rewards through their own merit. What an era for gaming.
I'm not sure which way Intrepid will go but I would imagine they may lean more towards the hokey pokey side of things rather than chaos because of demographics and gamer mentalities. It's when the boss fights are overly scripted and predictable that they feel empty and meaningless. Who knows where they will land on the spectrum when it comes to combat pacing via mechanics as that system will have to be directly linked to PvP combat. They relatively are one in the same.
And if intrepid make a combat tracker that is "controlled" players will still make 3rd party combat trackers to gain an advantage since those will not be restricted by any limitations intrepid put on the ingame one.
If there is scope left for players to gain an advantage, Intrepid didn't make a good tracker.
Lets assume Intrepid make a tracker, and follow the suggestion I have been making for years now of it being a guild perk and only working within your guild.
If Intrepid do this, they can also remove the combat log from the client, as it would not be needed. They could potentially also do away with floating combat feedback, though I wouldn't bet on them doing that (people like seeing their numbers). What is quite likely though, is that you would only see effects that directly affect you.
Now, since it operates server side rather than client side, it already has an advantage over any third party tracker. A third party tracker under these circumstances is now required to use the floating combat feedback - which is fine - it works. However, in order to make it actually work, players would all need to join a server, and share that data to one tracker.
Again, this is all possible, and has been happening in games for over a decade.
However, if you are asking people to join your combat tracker server to share data, they are almost definitely going to be in your guild. You would not ask random strangers to do this, and if you did, they would refuse - rightly so.
So, the question then becomes, assuming Intrepids built in combat tracker provides all data that a guild would want, what possible further gains could be had under the above situation that would make it actually worth going to the effort of establishing that tracker?
The answer to this question is simple; nothing.
There is no data that is worth that amount of effort, assuming Intrepid build their combat tracker properly.
TL;DR, this like of thinking is a non-starter, honestly.
I will say the most entertaining part is figuring out those boss mechanics instead of just watching some video on how to get through the different phases. PvE needs to be fun and engaging with a bit of chaos to keep players on their toes, not some hokey pokey dance you see in every MMORPG.
I agree, which is why I will never seriously play a game like WoW.
One of the best things about EQ2 is that even 15 years later, information on how to defeat top end raid bosses is almost impossible to come across.
It's kind of like the GoT early seasons. People that had read the books made a real effort to not spoil things for people that had not read them.
It helped in EQ2 that there was a real competitive aspect to raiding. The hardest encounters with the best loot were contested, so only one guild could kill it per server, per week (or so). This meant that the idea of helping rival guilds was anathema to all top end players in that game. Posting a video on how to kill a mob was assisting people that were about to compete against you for the best loot in the game.
People were kicked from guilds for giving hints, let alone making videos.
About FFXIV : like many things from YoshiP, one word : Hypocrisy
in FFXIV, you can get banned if you say "bad DPS, sorry, i will replace you" and then kick the guy
In FFXIV, you don't get banned if you kick the guy... Without saying anything.
It is not forbidden in FFXIV to judge anyone about its efficiency during fights, it is forbidden to say any of the team is bad before kicking him...
FFXIV did this choice also because it is a good way to make both side happy. They manage to say either "parsers are bad" and "parsers are ok".
Funnier, lot of people uses parsers... I did a trial account during summer to spend some time, Playing jobs i played a lot in end game before i left. So clearly i knew fight rotations. Was funny during the lvling how much time people did congratulate the "new player in trial account" i was for doing such good DPS
BTW, i love seeing all the hate some continue to have here and able to spit it to the face to anyone with another opinion... Funny to see how most people full of this hatred are on the "no parser" side... The side complaining about toxicity... (I don't say all anti combat tracker are full of hate, far from it ! )
With what nooani just explained with EQ2, it is a simple fact : tools are tools, game mechanics are game mechanics. What will create bad or good behaviour inside the community of a game is how people will interact with the game.
Like half my FC parses, the other half say: "How is my DPS?" all the time...
I don't think Yoshi-P is a hypocrite. I think he just understands that he is walking a fine like from a public relations prospective. He knows he can't divert all of his dev team's time to maybe temporarily reduce the amount of parsing done.
There really is no good way of saying: "Well, we investigated the situation and there is nothing we can do to permanently remove DPS meters.".
With what nooani just explained with EQ2, it is a simple fact : tools are tools, game mechanics are game mechanics. What will create bad or good behaviour inside the community of a game is how people will interact with the game.
Just quoted this to get more eyes on it. It is the truth, after all.
However there is truth that game mechanics can steer player behavior in certain directions. Problem is the fault for kicking people is shared between the player and the game that allows him to be replaced quickly
Problem is the fault for kicking people is shared between the player and the game that allows him to be replaced quickly
Haha, yeah. If it's going to take 25mins for a replacement to ride over to your dungeon, assuming they're not going to be attacked and killed on the way, are you really willing to kick that first guy?!
I don't think Yoshi-P is a hypocrite. I think he just understands that he is walking a fine like from a public relations prospective.
This is my issue.
it is not a gameplay issue. it is not making the game better for anyone. It is straight up a public relations move.
People that would be kicked from groups in FFXIV are still being kicked, and that is the only actual action that people can point to and call toxic. Not being able to talk about it isn't making things any better, it just means that person that got kicked from the group can make up any reason at all they like for it.
So, to people that don't like trackers, this stance doesn't really offer a benefit.
On the other hand, to people that do like them, this stance has a clear negative impact.
So, whether you call it hypocrisy or not, it is taking a public relations stance that puts public relations ahead of the game.
if he were to put some thought in to it, and wanted to put the game first, there is no way he would have the stance on it that he has.
Problem is the fault for kicking people is shared between the player and the game that allows him to be replaced quickly
Haha, yeah. If it's going to take 25mins for a replacement to ride over to your dungeon, assuming they're not going to be attacked and killed on the way, are you really willing to kick that first guy?!
This is a point I made about 65 pages ago.
If the developers want to get rid of the WoW-esque issue of players being booted mid-dungeon, the combat tracker is not the system they need to look at.
The family summons is the guilty party in this situation. It needs to go.
If Steven wants to claim that he doesn't want a combat tracker because he doesn't want people being kicked mid content, but he leaves the family summons in the game, that absolutely is hypocrisy.
However there is truth that game mechanics can steer player behavior in certain directions.
Like tools can
When i say "how players interact with games" i think about a large alchemy.
Game mechanics are part of it, not the only.
Riot did saw a clear reduction of toxic global behaviour in LoL when they did just one thing : global chat by default inactiv. They didnt remove it, people just had to go in menu to have it back, once only.
As simply as this.
Make the game more around social, et personnal reputation and people will avoid doing ninja ou brainless constant kick of people. etc
This alchemy is well known by tabletop RPG players. Don't need to change rule system or universe. Just some changes in how the DM does his job (speaking faster/slower... just this) will have a real impact on how its players will interact, and so being more or less focus/serious or stressed (if horror setup) .
I use DPS meters/ACT as a means to improve myself. As a group/raid leader, I use it as a means to improve my group/raid. If someone is performing poorly, I'll do my best to help them get better as a first resort. If that fails and I don't see meaningful improvement, I do not want to play with that person. Similarly, I don't think casual players would enjoy playing with someone like me.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I stand on both sides of this argument and i pull from my experience in league of legends. As an ADC player your always expected to do really high damage and usually blame falls on you if you dont. On the other hand a tank doing more damage than the dps can mean that your DPS really sucks, but it also might mean your tank si playing extremely aggressive instead of protecting your DPS. It is a love hate relationship but i think overall there should be a way to show heal/damage
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
We will test the current design and see how it feels.
Why want a combat tracker? Intrepid will never make it like it should, so people will use a third party one. Noaani said it's already done, why should IS waste resources on something that people already developed.
Why want a combat tracker? Intrepid will never make it like it should, so people will use a third party one. Noaani said it's already done, why should IS waste resources on something that people already developed.
The best reason why is to give all players a level playing field.
I know people that have made (and are still planning on improving) a combat tracker. This gives me an advantage. If you do not know the people that are making this tracker, you will not be able to use it.
If Intrepid build it in to the game instead, then all players have access to it - whether they chose to use that access or not.
DPS and healing meters are incredibly helpful for making sure you know you're doing the job correctly! Meters are one of those double-edged swords where they are incredibly useful but can be easily misused by a-holes. In my opinion, it's way more helpful to just have the meters but only have it to where you can only view your results. If, say, guild members want to compare notes they can just discuss amongst themselves with screen shots or the like (a bit annoying and task-orientated but it seems like a good middle ground to having meters but making sure toxic people can't misuse that information).
DPS and healing meters are incredibly helpful for making sure you know you're doing the job correctly! Meters are one of those double-edged swords where they are incredibly useful but can be easily misused by a-holes. In my opinion, it's way more helpful to just have the meters but only have it to where you can only view your results. If, say, guild members want to compare notes they can just discuss amongst themselves with screen shots or the like (a bit annoying and task-orientated but it seems like a good middle ground to having meters but making sure toxic people can't misuse that information).
This is not entirely different to the suggestion that was predominant about 80 pages back in this thread (I assume you read the whole thread).
That suggestion was to build a combat tracker in to the game and deliver it to players as an optional guild perk - and make it so that it only tracks combat for people within your guild.
That way, each guild can decide whether they want it or not. Since most guilds form up around players that are similar in their approach to how they play the game, the vast majority of guilds will either basically all want trackers, or basically all not want trackers.
The problem with having personal numbers that can then be shared is that people running raids will tell everyone that a condition of coming along is sharing those numbers, and those not willing to do so will be excluded from that raid.
Since the only reason Intrepid have given for not wanting combat trackers is that players use them to exclude other players, this doesn't seem like a prevention of that at all to me.
However, if players even having those numbers isn't a guaranteed thing, it is much harder for that guild leader to demand them from people joining their group or raid.
Since Lost Ark launched in EU I was playing it almost nonstop and the fact that you dont have a working meter in most of the content did not bother me in the slightest, because you actually have custom testing room with built-in dps meter and customization so you can tryout any build in the game and measure it in any way you want.
Also dps in lost ark does not have even comparable importance to other mmos, because you dont have the holy trinity of dps, tank and heal, but a simple 3dps and a support. So players dont have the blanket of a tank to be safe.
tldr:
So there is actually a proof that the dps meter discussion is a developer problem, because lost ark solved it by abandoning tank, heal, dps trinity and increased emphasis on personal responsibility that isnt doing damage. And still you have a working built-in meter in the corner to test builds and practice rotations
Min/Max pressure will escalate if a traditional DPS meter is part of the UI.
If there were a meter I would like it to be implemented by AoC themselves so that the results are as accurate as possible. It's hard to know if the meter is a door-opener or a door-closer (the door swings both ways?) regarding players being chosen for guild activities.
min/max pressure escalates proportionally with the size of the playerbase - it has literally nothing to do if meter is part of the ui or not - the meter may shape the appearance of the meta, but not the sweatiness of it
Why want a combat tracker? Intrepid will never make it like it should, so people will use a third party one. Noaani said it's already done, why should IS waste resources on something that people already developed.
The best reason why is to give all players a level playing field.
If Intrepid build it in to the game instead, then all players have access to it - whether they chose to use that access or not.
But then the field is not the same. A guild perk means some people will have it. Also how can you assure me that there won't be a third party one? You can tell me your word is valid for the whole Ashes community? You said it yourself, there WILL be a combat tracker. What difference does it make if IS makes one themselves? How can you be 100% sure what they could make would be actually useful for people?
What's the point on using time to develop something that people will just replace with an external addon?
Yes, but if you opt to not take it, you get something in it's place that those that did take it can not get.
That way, guilds with a play style that will make use of it can take it, and guilds that have a play style that will not use it - which happen to be guilds that would not use it anyway - can take something else that they will use.
That is as fair a playing field as possible.
If Intrepid make it and add it to the game in a manner that does everything that players will want, there is no real point in maintaining a third party tracker (which would need near constant maintenance), and there is no point in going through the hassle of using one either.
This is not entirely different to the suggestion that was predominant about 80 pages back in this thread (I assume you read the whole thread).
Why would I read the whole thread? lmao just pitching in my two cents like everyone else here. Whatever Intrepid decides upon I'm cool with the more people express their thoughts on a topic the easier it is for Intrepid to get a clearer view on what the majority of people might be in favor of. There are always pros and cons to a choice and it will be fun seeing how Intrepid decides to run with things.
Comments
It's much more fun learning the fights than watching videos. It's rare finding gamers like that still around. In regards to the hokey pokey, most gamers just want quick satisfactions and rewards versus earning those rewards through their own merit. What an era for gaming.
I'm not sure which way Intrepid will go but I would imagine they may lean more towards the hokey pokey side of things rather than chaos because of demographics and gamer mentalities. It's when the boss fights are overly scripted and predictable that they feel empty and meaningless. Who knows where they will land on the spectrum when it comes to combat pacing via mechanics as that system will have to be directly linked to PvP combat. They relatively are one in the same.
Lets assume Intrepid make a tracker, and follow the suggestion I have been making for years now of it being a guild perk and only working within your guild.
If Intrepid do this, they can also remove the combat log from the client, as it would not be needed. They could potentially also do away with floating combat feedback, though I wouldn't bet on them doing that (people like seeing their numbers). What is quite likely though, is that you would only see effects that directly affect you.
Now, since it operates server side rather than client side, it already has an advantage over any third party tracker. A third party tracker under these circumstances is now required to use the floating combat feedback - which is fine - it works. However, in order to make it actually work, players would all need to join a server, and share that data to one tracker.
Again, this is all possible, and has been happening in games for over a decade.
However, if you are asking people to join your combat tracker server to share data, they are almost definitely going to be in your guild. You would not ask random strangers to do this, and if you did, they would refuse - rightly so.
So, the question then becomes, assuming Intrepids built in combat tracker provides all data that a guild would want, what possible further gains could be had under the above situation that would make it actually worth going to the effort of establishing that tracker?
The answer to this question is simple; nothing.
There is no data that is worth that amount of effort, assuming Intrepid build their combat tracker properly.
TL;DR, this like of thinking is a non-starter, honestly.
One of the best things about EQ2 is that even 15 years later, information on how to defeat top end raid bosses is almost impossible to come across.
It's kind of like the GoT early seasons. People that had read the books made a real effort to not spoil things for people that had not read them.
It helped in EQ2 that there was a real competitive aspect to raiding. The hardest encounters with the best loot were contested, so only one guild could kill it per server, per week (or so). This meant that the idea of helping rival guilds was anathema to all top end players in that game. Posting a video on how to kill a mob was assisting people that were about to compete against you for the best loot in the game.
People were kicked from guilds for giving hints, let alone making videos.
in FFXIV, you can get banned if you say "bad DPS, sorry, i will replace you" and then kick the guy
In FFXIV, you don't get banned if you kick the guy... Without saying anything.
It is not forbidden in FFXIV to judge anyone about its efficiency during fights, it is forbidden to say any of the team is bad before kicking him...
FFXIV did this choice also because it is a good way to make both side happy. They manage to say either "parsers are bad" and "parsers are ok".
Funnier, lot of people uses parsers... I did a trial account during summer to spend some time, Playing jobs i played a lot in end game before i left. So clearly i knew fight rotations. Was funny during the lvling how much time people did congratulate the "new player in trial account" i was for doing such good DPS
BTW, i love seeing all the hate some continue to have here and able to spit it to the face to anyone with another opinion... Funny to see how most people full of this hatred are on the "no parser" side... The side complaining about toxicity... (I don't say all anti combat tracker are full of hate, far from it ! )
With what nooani just explained with EQ2, it is a simple fact : tools are tools, game mechanics are game mechanics. What will create bad or good behaviour inside the community of a game is how people will interact with the game.
I don't think Yoshi-P is a hypocrite. I think he just understands that he is walking a fine like from a public relations prospective. He knows he can't divert all of his dev team's time to maybe temporarily reduce the amount of parsing done.
There really is no good way of saying: "Well, we investigated the situation and there is nothing we can do to permanently remove DPS meters.".
Just quoted this to get more eyes on it. It is the truth, after all.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
However there is truth that game mechanics can steer player behavior in certain directions. Problem is the fault for kicking people is shared between the player and the game that allows him to be replaced quickly
― Plato
Haha, yeah. If it's going to take 25mins for a replacement to ride over to your dungeon, assuming they're not going to be attacked and killed on the way, are you really willing to kick that first guy?!
This is my issue.
it is not a gameplay issue. it is not making the game better for anyone. It is straight up a public relations move.
People that would be kicked from groups in FFXIV are still being kicked, and that is the only actual action that people can point to and call toxic. Not being able to talk about it isn't making things any better, it just means that person that got kicked from the group can make up any reason at all they like for it.
So, to people that don't like trackers, this stance doesn't really offer a benefit.
On the other hand, to people that do like them, this stance has a clear negative impact.
So, whether you call it hypocrisy or not, it is taking a public relations stance that puts public relations ahead of the game.
if he were to put some thought in to it, and wanted to put the game first, there is no way he would have the stance on it that he has.
Same with Steven.
This is a point I made about 65 pages ago.
If the developers want to get rid of the WoW-esque issue of players being booted mid-dungeon, the combat tracker is not the system they need to look at.
The family summons is the guilty party in this situation. It needs to go.
If Steven wants to claim that he doesn't want a combat tracker because he doesn't want people being kicked mid content, but he leaves the family summons in the game, that absolutely is hypocrisy.
Like tools can
When i say "how players interact with games" i think about a large alchemy.
Game mechanics are part of it, not the only.
Riot did saw a clear reduction of toxic global behaviour in LoL when they did just one thing : global chat by default inactiv. They didnt remove it, people just had to go in menu to have it back, once only.
As simply as this.
Make the game more around social, et personnal reputation and people will avoid doing ninja ou brainless constant kick of people. etc
This alchemy is well known by tabletop RPG players. Don't need to change rule system or universe. Just some changes in how the DM does his job (speaking faster/slower... just this) will have a real impact on how its players will interact, and so being more or less focus/serious or stressed (if horror setup) .
if it was available only for early grouping with friends then all reasons for that system to exist evaporates.
― Plato
If Ashes don't do damage pop up good, and no dps meter, well...
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
The best reason why is to give all players a level playing field.
I know people that have made (and are still planning on improving) a combat tracker. This gives me an advantage. If you do not know the people that are making this tracker, you will not be able to use it.
If Intrepid build it in to the game instead, then all players have access to it - whether they chose to use that access or not.
@WuqingYe
This is not entirely different to the suggestion that was predominant about 80 pages back in this thread (I assume you read the whole thread).
That suggestion was to build a combat tracker in to the game and deliver it to players as an optional guild perk - and make it so that it only tracks combat for people within your guild.
That way, each guild can decide whether they want it or not. Since most guilds form up around players that are similar in their approach to how they play the game, the vast majority of guilds will either basically all want trackers, or basically all not want trackers.
The problem with having personal numbers that can then be shared is that people running raids will tell everyone that a condition of coming along is sharing those numbers, and those not willing to do so will be excluded from that raid.
Since the only reason Intrepid have given for not wanting combat trackers is that players use them to exclude other players, this doesn't seem like a prevention of that at all to me.
However, if players even having those numbers isn't a guaranteed thing, it is much harder for that guild leader to demand them from people joining their group or raid.
Also dps in lost ark does not have even comparable importance to other mmos, because you dont have the holy trinity of dps, tank and heal, but a simple 3dps and a support. So players dont have the blanket of a tank to be safe.
tldr:
So there is actually a proof that the dps meter discussion is a developer problem, because lost ark solved it by abandoning tank, heal, dps trinity and increased emphasis on personal responsibility that isnt doing damage. And still you have a working built-in meter in the corner to test builds and practice rotations
― Plato
If there were a meter I would like it to be implemented by AoC themselves so that the results are as accurate as possible. It's hard to know if the meter is a door-opener or a door-closer (the door swings both ways?) regarding players being chosen for guild activities.
― Plato
Only if that training dummy gives feedback on dps and a breakdown of damage by skill
But then the field is not the same. A guild perk means some people will have it. Also how can you assure me that there won't be a third party one? You can tell me your word is valid for the whole Ashes community? You said it yourself, there WILL be a combat tracker. What difference does it make if IS makes one themselves? How can you be 100% sure what they could make would be actually useful for people?
What's the point on using time to develop something that people will just replace with an external addon?
That way, guilds with a play style that will make use of it can take it, and guilds that have a play style that will not use it - which happen to be guilds that would not use it anyway - can take something else that they will use.
That is as fair a playing field as possible.
If Intrepid make it and add it to the game in a manner that does everything that players will want, there is no real point in maintaining a third party tracker (which would need near constant maintenance), and there is no point in going through the hassle of using one either.
Why would I read the whole thread? lmao just pitching in my two cents like everyone else here. Whatever Intrepid decides upon I'm cool with
While I am aware sarcasm doesn't translate very well via text, that was indeed a joke.