And that's another thing that doesn't make sense, tank is both the archetype and the role in this game, whereas bard and cleric are listed as supports, for example.
I mean, this is WHY it makes sense.
You can't call cleric or bard support, because that is two archetypes.
You can, however, call tank "tank", because there is only one tank archetype. Since there is only one archetype, since players will call the archetype "tank" anyway, and since this is literally only communication between developers and players (I do not expect to ever have my class stated in game), calling it tank is perfectly acceptable.
If it turned out that Intrepids plan was that fighters were also viable tanks in their own right (ie, without needing to take tank secondary), then I would agree that name of the "tank" aerchetype needs to change.
As long as it is the only class intended to tank, calling it tank is fine. Since it is the only class where this is the case (all other roles in Ashes have multiple classes to fulfil them), the fact that it stands out a little bit is to be expected.
Not as sailly as having "Tank" as the name of a class. It's like naming a mage "DPSer". It's moronic and immersion breaking.
Why is it immersion breaking?
At what point while you are immersed in the game would the name of the class be in front of you?
I mean, chances are, the only way you'll ever see the word "tank" in game is on the UI. How can you consider a word to be immersion breaking, when the UI itself isn't?
What kind of bizarre human is hard jugging an imagination about a single under 7ft creature being able to soak up the damage and be immovable from any attack from a creature the size of a house AND stare into its eyes/bang into a shield/cast a foreign spell that somehow averts every bit of outside disturbance.
Even anime that showcases overpowered beings doesn't even potray something this ridiculously bland...but if you guys want to support a gameplay aspect that degrades the mmo genre SURE THING
but if you guys want to support a gameplay aspect that degrades the mmo genre SURE THING
Degrades the MMO genre?
The Trinity - and thus tanking - IS the MMO genre.
Sure, some games are trying to move away from it (mostly unsuccessfully), but the trinity is literally the foundation of the genre. It is what literally all of the great MMOs of the past have been built on.
Saying the gameplay of a tank degrades the MMO genre is about like saying wheels degrade cars.
Guardian sounds sweet tbh and is different than previous mmos and thats what aoc represents right? Doing what nobody does........
Guardian was one of the main tank classes in EQ2 - when you consider how many ex-EQ2 developers have worked on Ashes, that isn't exactly "doing what nobody does".
The Trinity - and thus tanking - IS the MMO genre.
What a creationless attitude! (for lack of a better word!).
The "Trinity system" ie the system to simplify user PvE gameplay so that it's not only accessible to gamers lacking a lot of fundamental skill but also to elevate a formulated/scripted instance of which I bet you support fully...
I'm all for many classes, many skill variations and weaknesses+depencies but having something simplistic as how Tank is usually designed to answer for "1 hit" damage scenerio's has got to be the most forced gameplay mechanic in all of gaming WHICH was perfectly acceptable when gaming genres were in their infancy back in the early/mid 2000's. How also does a Tank translate for PvP...a simple monkey wrench "no point attacking it!" "here for cc only" "I lost target on something, stupid taunt!", what kind of in demand gameplay interaction is this? No one in their right mind would make a great competitive game that has immersive gameplay with something moving around that has only the mission of stopping your gameplay...and then on top of that you can't even retaliate against it!
This "class" has some serious evolving to do if it is to meet the demands of competitive and immersive gameplay.
Sure, some games are trying to move away from it (mostly unsuccessfully), but the trinity is literally the foundation of the genre. It is what literally all of the great MMOs of the past have been built on.
Put a name to those games right now, I'll bet anything that they didn't live up to their potential for bigger reasons that were NOT related to gameplay!
Not as sailly as having "Tank" as the name of a class. It's like naming a mage "DPSer". It's moronic and immersion breaking.
Tank is not immersion breaking it is a name and straight to the point as well. Again all you can do is say its slang. Stop trying to compare abbreviation of "DPS" as to the same thing as tank. If people called tanks anything else throughout the years you would be making the same argument..
"Tank" is no different than others, like "summoner" or "fighter". It's just word association that makes you more comfortable with those terms. Still, "Tank" is not the name of a class, it's an Archetype (just like summoner and fighter). Your class will be something like "Spellshield", "Warden", or "Guardian".
"Tank" is no different than others, like "summoner" or "fighter". It's just word association that makes you more comfortable with those terms. Still, "Tank" is not the name of a class, it's an Archetype (just like summoner and fighter). Your class will be something like "Spellshield", "Warden", or "Guardian".
Sigh… semantics. You are going to be a “tank” for the first 20-30 levels or so before you get your secondary archetype.
From a tank perspective, why did I name the tank "tank"? There's a few reasons: One is that there are obviously elements of the tank role that could be considered as different types of names like, Guardian or Steward or whatever. There's things that you could do that but I feel like tank as a vernacular has become embedded within MMO/fantasy players and they use it interchangeably even if the class name was like Guardian or whatever. I feel even though in that scenario players would still refer to it as a tank like in normal conversation with each other, "Oh we need a tank for this fight."[7] – Steven Sharif
From a tank perspective, why did I name the tank "tank"? There's a few reasons: One is that there are obviously elements of the tank role that could be considered as different types of names like, Guardian or Steward or whatever. There's things that you could do that but I feel like tank as a vernacular has become embedded within MMO/fantasy players and they use it interchangeably even if the class name was like Guardian or whatever. I feel even though in that scenario players would still refer to it as a tank like in normal conversation with each other, "Oh we need a tank for this fight."[7] – Steven Sharif
He uses phrases such as “I feel” and has an opinion and stance on it. It is his game so he can do what he wants. His decision on making the names was over 5 years ago and it is likely set and is what it is, but the point is that just because the name is used to describe a role, doesn’t mean that it sounds good within the world/immersion of the game. Yes, players are going to say oh we need a tank for this but why does the name have to be so generic compared to others. “I feel” it is just boring, not exciting, and doesn’t fit within the context of the game being created.
There are phrases such as pyrrhic victory and hollow win which changing tank would equal. I'm impressed with the energy and enthusiasm shown in order to change tank but tank will still be called tank in game regardless.
There are phrases such as pyrrhic victory and hollow win which changing tank would equal. I'm impressed with the energy and enthusiasm shown in order to change tank but tank will still be called tank in game regardless.
Let’s call Ashes of Creation : MMORPG2024 you will see how it will be attractive.
The Trinity - and thus tanking - IS the MMO genre.
What a creationless attitude! (for lack of a better word!).
The "Trinity system" ie the system to simplify user PvE gameplay so that it's not only accessible to gamers lacking a lot of fundamental skill but also to elevate a formulated/scripted instance of which I bet you support fully...
I'm all for many classes, many skill variations and weaknesses+depencies but having something simplistic as how Tank is usually designed to answer for "1 hit" damage scenerio's has got to be the most forced gameplay mechanic in all of gaming WHICH was perfectly acceptable when gaming genres were in their infancy back in the early/mid 2000's. How also does a Tank translate for PvP...a simple monkey wrench "no point attacking it!" "here for cc only" "I lost target on something, stupid taunt!", what kind of in demand gameplay interaction is this? No one in their right mind would make a great competitive game that has immersive gameplay with something moving around that has only the mission of stopping your gameplay...and then on top of that you can't even retaliate against it!
This "class" has some serious evolving to do if it is to meet the demands of competitive and immersive gameplay.
Sure, some games are trying to move away from it (mostly unsuccessfully), but the trinity is literally the foundation of the genre. It is what literally all of the great MMOs of the past have been built on.
Put a name to those games right now, I'll bet anything that they didn't live up to their potential for bigger reasons that were NOT related to gameplay!
GW2 and it's shit stain combat system comes to mind right off the top. But it sounds like a game you would enjoy. Everyone is all DPS all the time no set roles or roll/class interdependence at all. Hell it barely can be called an MMO.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
GW2 and it's shit stain combat system comes to mind right off the top. But it sounds like a game you would enjoy. Everyone is all DPS all the time no set roles or roll/class interdependence at all. Hell it barely can be called an MMO.
I've always disliked GW2 but for mainly reasons outside of gameplay.
I'll help you out, I enjoyed BDO and its gameplay was ofc not role dependant but it had every right to be labelled an mmo, the way I describe these kinds of games is more "fighter online" rather than the WoW/Lineage 2 thing of "bare bone d&d basics online" BUT remember, d&d has no tanking system.
Ultima Onlne had no traditional tanking system and its the best PvE experience I've had with friends.
The most successful PvP mmo (overall trashy now but still), League of Legends, has no traditional tanking system, it merely has tougher champions with 1 bit of decent or great cc and on rare occassion soaks up tower shots or gets in the way of skill shots.
But ofc you're on about strictly 'mmorpg' and I have yet to see holy commandments "though shall have trinity" but I would just love for you to construct something on why Ultima Online is poor or not an mmorpg.
I've experienced Lineage 2 in all its glory and besides the obvious p2w and super chore/grind fest that it has become I have one thing more original to say about it, if Tanks were ever not "a rare sight" then it would flipping insufferable!!!
Now if you have anything better to reference than a super casual mmo like GW2 or perhaps a better opinion I wouldn't mind diving into the bizarre notion that the "Tank role" is needed catalyst for a "real" mmorpg.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
GW2 and it's shit stain combat system comes to mind right off the top. But it sounds like a game you would enjoy. Everyone is all DPS all the time no set roles or roll/class interdependence at all. Hell it barely can be called an MMO.
I've always disliked GW2 but for mainly reasons outside of gameplay.
I'll help you out, I enjoyed BDO and its gameplay was ofc not role dependant but it had every right to be labelled an mmo, the way I describe these kinds of games is more "fighter online" rather than the WoW/Lineage 2 thing of "bare bone d&d basics online" BUT remember, d&d has no tanking system.
Ultima Onlne had no traditional tanking system and its the best PvE experience I've had with friends.
The most successful PvP mmo (overall trashy now but still), League of Legends, has no traditional tanking system, it merely has tougher champions with 1 bit of decent or great cc and on rare occassion soaks up tower shots or gets in the way of skill shots.
But ofc you're on about strictly 'mmorpg' and I have yet to see holy commandments "though shall have trinity" but I would just love for you to construct something on why Ultima Online is poor or not an mmorpg.
I've experienced Lineage 2 in all its glory and besides the obvious p2w and super chore/grind fest that it has become I have one thing more original to say about it, if Tanks were ever not "a rare sight" then it would flipping insufferable!!!
Now if you have anything better to reference than a super casual mmo like GW2 or perhaps a better opinion I wouldn't mind diving into the bizarre notion that the "Tank role" is needed catalyst for a "real" mmorpg.
We have moved off topic. Perhaps make a new thread: Why I feel trinity game play is bad.
Personally I dislike the systems as s you describe them and like the stuff you don't. And that's ok.
Back on topic.
I do find the different naming conventions ok and no need to be changed to match everything else just because....I don't like it.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
@bloodprophet this thread is a complete mess in more ways than 1 but fine, a nice swerve from having to defend your assumptions of me.
A thread should not be made until at least A2 though as there is simply no point critizing or debating of how the Tank or a hardened Trinity system dictates the flow, enjoyment and competiveness of a game until the gameplay and skill/stat potentials are on display.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@bloodprophet this thread is a complete mess in more ways than 1 but fine, a nice swerve from having to defend your assumptions of me.
I assumed nothing of you.
You asked for one example and I gave 1.
We like different things and move this thread off topic.
We could debate how MOBA's and survival games don't have tanks but I don't think this is the place.
I haven't played D&D since 2nd edition. Long time I know. But our group naturally fell into the Trinity. We all liked different classes and naturally settled into them. Different groups tend to do different things and different people like different things. I prefer group play and role/class interdependence.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wait did you revive this thread when there is another thread there just to post a meme and troll?
Why?
Someone merged threads and didn't leave a note.
other thread is still there and not merged, guy is just trolling so he brought this thread back up as well.
Perhaps.
I went to bed there were no new post's. Got up 680 new post's and most from couple years ago. If a mod didn't merge the thread then somehow all those posts got moved to this one.
If not a mod then maybe they should look it how it happened.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
I haven't played D&D since 2nd edition. Long time I know. But our group naturally fell into the Trinity. We all liked different classes and naturally settled into them. Different groups tend to do different things and different people like different things. I prefer group play and role/class interdependence.
And that's completly fine and those type of Tank skills can be present on many melee type classes to further their interest besides "alternative dps/debuffs". The problem is the flat out of refusal to account for all the needs of a potentially legendary mmo that also involves enjoyable and immersive PvP and conquest.
Comments
I mean, this is WHY it makes sense.
You can't call cleric or bard support, because that is two archetypes.
You can, however, call tank "tank", because there is only one tank archetype. Since there is only one archetype, since players will call the archetype "tank" anyway, and since this is literally only communication between developers and players (I do not expect to ever have my class stated in game), calling it tank is perfectly acceptable.
If it turned out that Intrepids plan was that fighters were also viable tanks in their own right (ie, without needing to take tank secondary), then I would agree that name of the "tank" aerchetype needs to change.
As long as it is the only class intended to tank, calling it tank is fine. Since it is the only class where this is the case (all other roles in Ashes have multiple classes to fulfil them), the fact that it stands out a little bit is to be expected.
Not as sailly as having "Tank" as the name of a class. It's like naming a mage "DPSer". It's moronic and immersion breaking.
Why is it immersion breaking?
At what point while you are immersed in the game would the name of the class be in front of you?
I mean, chances are, the only way you'll ever see the word "tank" in game is on the UI. How can you consider a word to be immersion breaking, when the UI itself isn't?
What kind of bizarre human is hard jugging an imagination about a single under 7ft creature being able to soak up the damage and be immovable from any attack from a creature the size of a house AND stare into its eyes/bang into a shield/cast a foreign spell that somehow averts every bit of outside disturbance.
Even anime that showcases overpowered beings doesn't even potray something this ridiculously bland...but if you guys want to support a gameplay aspect that degrades the mmo genre SURE THING
The Trinity - and thus tanking - IS the MMO genre.
Sure, some games are trying to move away from it (mostly unsuccessfully), but the trinity is literally the foundation of the genre. It is what literally all of the great MMOs of the past have been built on.
Saying the gameplay of a tank degrades the MMO genre is about like saying wheels degrade cars.
Guardian was one of the main tank classes in EQ2 - when you consider how many ex-EQ2 developers have worked on Ashes, that isn't exactly "doing what nobody does".
What a creationless attitude! (for lack of a better word!).
The "Trinity system" ie the system to simplify user PvE gameplay so that it's not only accessible to gamers lacking a lot of fundamental skill but also to elevate a formulated/scripted instance of which I bet you support fully...
I'm all for many classes, many skill variations and weaknesses+depencies but having something simplistic as how Tank is usually designed to answer for "1 hit" damage scenerio's has got to be the most forced gameplay mechanic in all of gaming WHICH was perfectly acceptable when gaming genres were in their infancy back in the early/mid 2000's. How also does a Tank translate for PvP...a simple monkey wrench "no point attacking it!" "here for cc only" "I lost target on something, stupid taunt!", what kind of in demand gameplay interaction is this? No one in their right mind would make a great competitive game that has immersive gameplay with something moving around that has only the mission of stopping your gameplay...and then on top of that you can't even retaliate against it!
This "class" has some serious evolving to do if it is to meet the demands of competitive and immersive gameplay.
Put a name to those games right now, I'll bet anything that they didn't live up to their potential for bigger reasons that were NOT related to gameplay!
Tank is not immersion breaking it is a name and straight to the point as well. Again all you can do is say its slang. Stop trying to compare abbreviation of "DPS" as to the same thing as tank. If people called tanks anything else throughout the years you would be making the same argument..
Wait did you revive this thread when there is another thread there just to post a meme and troll?
Why?
Sigh… semantics. You are going to be a “tank” for the first 20-30 levels or so before you get your secondary archetype.
He uses phrases such as “I feel” and has an opinion and stance on it. It is his game so he can do what he wants. His decision on making the names was over 5 years ago and it is likely set and is what it is, but the point is that just because the name is used to describe a role, doesn’t mean that it sounds good within the world/immersion of the game. Yes, players are going to say oh we need a tank for this but why does the name have to be so generic compared to others. “I feel” it is just boring, not exciting, and doesn’t fit within the context of the game being created.
Let’s call Ashes of Creation : MMORPG2024 you will see how it will be attractive.
MMORPG2028 you like it more ?
GW2 and it's shit stain combat system comes to mind right off the top. But it sounds like a game you would enjoy. Everyone is all DPS all the time no set roles or roll/class interdependence at all. Hell it barely can be called an MMO.
Someone merged threads and didn't leave a note.
Ah yes, the echoes of group pvp on teamspeak lol.
other thread is still there and not merged, guy is just trolling so he brought this thread back up as well.
I've always disliked GW2 but for mainly reasons outside of gameplay.
I'll help you out, I enjoyed BDO and its gameplay was ofc not role dependant but it had every right to be labelled an mmo, the way I describe these kinds of games is more "fighter online" rather than the WoW/Lineage 2 thing of "bare bone d&d basics online" BUT remember, d&d has no tanking system.
Ultima Onlne had no traditional tanking system and its the best PvE experience I've had with friends.
The most successful PvP mmo (overall trashy now but still), League of Legends, has no traditional tanking system, it merely has tougher champions with 1 bit of decent or great cc and on rare occassion soaks up tower shots or gets in the way of skill shots.
But ofc you're on about strictly 'mmorpg' and I have yet to see holy commandments "though shall have trinity" but I would just love for you to construct something on why Ultima Online is poor or not an mmorpg.
I've experienced Lineage 2 in all its glory and besides the obvious p2w and super chore/grind fest that it has become I have one thing more original to say about it, if Tanks were ever not "a rare sight" then it would flipping insufferable!!!
Now if you have anything better to reference than a super casual mmo like GW2 or perhaps a better opinion I wouldn't mind diving into the bizarre notion that the "Tank role" is needed catalyst for a "real" mmorpg.
We have moved off topic. Perhaps make a new thread: Why I feel trinity game play is bad.
Personally I dislike the systems as s you describe them and like the stuff you don't. And that's ok.
Back on topic.
I do find the different naming conventions ok and no need to be changed to match everything else just because....I don't like it.
A thread should not be made until at least A2 though as there is simply no point critizing or debating of how the Tank or a hardened Trinity system dictates the flow, enjoyment and competiveness of a game until the gameplay and skill/stat potentials are on display.
I assumed nothing of you.
You asked for one example and I gave 1.
We like different things and move this thread off topic.
We could debate how MOBA's and survival games don't have tanks but I don't think this is the place.
I haven't played D&D since 2nd edition. Long time I know. But our group naturally fell into the Trinity. We all liked different classes and naturally settled into them. Different groups tend to do different things and different people like different things. I prefer group play and role/class interdependence.
Perhaps.
I went to bed there were no new post's. Got up 680 new post's and most from couple years ago. If a mod didn't merge the thread then somehow all those posts got moved to this one.
If not a mod then maybe they should look it how it happened.
And that's completly fine and those type of Tank skills can be present on many melee type classes to further their interest besides "alternative dps/debuffs". The problem is the flat out of refusal to account for all the needs of a potentially legendary mmo that also involves enjoyable and immersive PvP and conquest.