Dev Discussion #21 - Quest Breadcrumbs

Lobosi

I understand and accept the need to cater towards new MMO players and those who simply want to know where to go and who to talk to. After all, we do play games as an escape and time is not unlimited. I believe there should be a simple yet informative amount of quests that get the player from X level to Y with shiny loot on top, but I would appreciate a handful of really "off the beaten path" type of quest-lines that give the Dev Team freedom to write in those niche but rewarding storylines. Not everyone enjoyed the nostalgic pain of "Ah **** I gotta re-evaluate the journal for this bloody quest again... So was it Left at the turn with the burned tree or..." type of games, and that's okay.

Dayuhan

From a role-player's point of view I think to many bread-crumbs leads to the sense of being a back-seat driver in your own story, that the out-come is predetermined because you are being hand-fed everything you need to do to complete the quest. While I do see the need to assist new players who may not know where or how to start, I don't think bread-crumbs are necessary to achieve this result. Here are just a couple ideas to help get new players started without having to break immersion.

1) Town Criers - NPC's that can either speak and/or give a handbill to players (new or otherwise). The Crier provided handbills could include trade locations, directions to the nearest tavern, or even a short list of jobs and who to ask for more information.
2) If the mode of entry is via the Portals from Sanctuary then you could be given a friendly, "seek <insert name here> upon your arrival, you can find him/her at <insert location of NPC>". And that could be your character's first quest.

Back to the subject of bread-crumb quests. The NPC quest provider could provide the character with the initial information needed to start the quest. If the player gets bogged down they return to the NPC and get directed to another NPC who has further information on the quest (possibly at a price) - the "Yes, I have the information you need but I do not work for free . . . ."

There is of course the ubiquitous Bulletin Board approach, where recent jobs (read: quests) are available for the inquisitive entrepreneur.

The Tavern master can double as an information broker, putting the character in contact with "interested parties".

And, finally there is the local gossip vine. A character goes to their favorite weapon shoppe to get their blades sharpened. NPC shopkeeper speaking (read: gossiping) with an NPC patron - "Yeah, metal of that quality is hard to come by these days, what with the ore caravans being attacked by bandits or worse." Then when the character interacts with the NPC shopkeeper, there is a new option to learn more about the caravan attacks, and so it goes.

Using examples, like these the player does not get the sensation of being led from quest, to quest, to quest - in a linear progression that can lead to only one out-come.

xXBelocXx

I like a mixture of both. I think the MMOs that literally hold your hand during the quest cause it to feel less "weighty" in the world. It makes it easier to just click "next, next, next, finish, move on". Not only does this turn the quest in to nothing more than a means to an end but I also think it discounts all the work that went into the making of these pieces of the game.

What I would like to see in AoC is a mixture. In the quest description or flavor text it provides clues as to where, or maybe even says precisely where the next step is but also shows something on the map that highlights an "area" versus specific spots. Maybe even have a way to turn the map portion off. We can call them "Quest Tips". Have it default on and it shows you a general area of a quests target including any people you need to talk to but also a way to turn it off to where you have to rely on the flavor text in the quest itself to find the objective.

Anyways, that how I see it.

Semi

I think you need main story quest lines and side quests having the markers and breadcrumbs. I recently played the original EverQuest and while it was neat having to read the dialogue and figure the things out myself, it ultimately was the reason I stopped playing.

However, I would love to see "secret" quests as well that do not have indicators or markers. And not just one or two, but a whole bunch of them. Give a nod to people who actually read all NPC dialogue. Great for content creators and fansites. The people who don't want to read all the dialogue can get the dirt from the other players who figured it out before them. I loved trying to solve these when I had time without using resources in both Secret World and World of Warcraft, but if I just wanted to level, work through the main story... I didn't have to read every line of text.

Ulf

Oh.. this is a good Dev Discussion.

I would say that , Either a discrete Exclamation / Interrogation sign is okay.

On the other hand, you could implement a... Saiyan sort of light ? Light that comes from the ground up. Green light, etc.. something Subtle.

Like So, but without the scroll on the head


Also, I think that quest markers and breadcrumbs should NOT be on the Map / Minimap, people get to focus on the map a lot sometimes, and don't enjoy the game itself. Maybe Highlighted general area, but not specific.

Have a great day !

Ulf

PiriPiri

No breadcrumbs, no quest indicators, no nothing. Just the text describing what is necessary for a quest and a quest tracker showing my progress.

After going from Retail WoW to WoW Classic, I realized how much immersion is broken when you just mindlessly follow bread crumbs, an arrow, or a marker on the map. With just text, I have to explore the area in the direction that I'm pointed in to find my objective, like a real adventure. Finding where the objective is becomes apart of each quest and can sometimes be more satisfying than completing the quest itself.

I think this is one of those things that should be forced on players to prevent them from entering the "mid-max" mindset of managing their time when playing the game, which ultimately makes the experience less enjoyable.

unphazd

I can see some people being torn by having the breadcrumbs on a toggle. On one hand it will give people the option to play how they want too and on the other they may feel pressured to toggle on in cases where they wouldn't want due to time sensitive or open world quest lines to either keep up or secure said quest ahead of the 'toggle on' player. Some people of course will not feel such pressure and welcome the disadvantage.

Kusaijshi

i would like if you always see the questgiver somehow.
let it be a mark above his head or a coloured circle at his feets so you know thi sperson there got something for me so i go to him because:
if someone in reality would need help you would recognize him too. so you would walk up to him and ask what are you doing can i help you.
he would not stand quiet in a corner and look straight to north.

BUT. the quest should have maybe different difficulties.
like normal lvl quest im fine when you get a quiet good explanation where you need to go like
cave yx
mountain xy
or something like that. im fine with marks or area circles too for the 0815 quests.

but i realy would like if there are some quest with good stuff where you not only need to make a dungeon or boss who is harde but need to think to because you only get a discription of where to move or what to do but 0 marks.

sure most peaple would use google after 1-2 month but for the peaple who want to do it and at the start of the game where everything is new that shit would be fun to explore .

and please never let the character move per 1 click to the location like in other games.
1 click and afk for 10 minutes and boom your chars walked to the mobs ...

IYI

As long as we're unable to auto path to the location of the "marker" for the quest and there's some story that has meaning to what you're trying to accomplish at the time whatever you guys come up with is good with me.

Boorder

I wood like to see almoste no help ore hand held part in the game. like points of intrest ore quest giver indicators. like in wow it is nice and fast but at som point i did not even read the cwest jurnal only if the cwest did not finis and i had to.
and that made it a grind. and i realy do not like grinding for ever. i need som kind of freedom and contact whit the world a quest needs to have som contend to figer out. ore content to learn you how to do certen machanics for the end contend (bosses) of the game.
But i wood like to have a regon of intrest where you can vind a lot of cwest like a bar ore a market place and even a quest givers board. where you can find notes (that you can take whit you) of npc that need help and how to find them ore what item to get for them bring them. (whit a picture of a mob ore plant ore a peace of a map) you can even make it so as like your caricter wil tel you to go there and look for quest if you com close and you togel it on ore set your game in bigginer mode. but what i also wood like to see is in game map instruments for planing the way you need to go fore a cwest like a ruler for distans and like points of intrest settings. that you can put there and togel on and of your self.
i base the quest givers board on the Wicher Quest love this way it is very imersif. it is just like how it workt a long time ago when there was no internet. you ask for help whit a note in a public place. you can even go as far as for ppl in game to poste help notes. for profesions, questing ore helping in a bos ficht ore for matirials.

AntVictus

Being able to find the objective of a quest is good, even if it's by reading quest text only. But the text needs to be accurate. The other situation is turning it in, the turn in I feel should be more than obvious as to where it is, the quest itself though, just needs to point you in the right direction with text.

DracoKalen

I'm torn on this one. It shouldn't be too easy but as someone who has played games where I wasted a month trying to finish a quest and it ended up being a computer graphics/internet connection problem it really shouldn't be that hard.
Maybe incorporate a system that when you bring up the quest you're on you can get a hint. Not tell, but something to get the player at least on the right track.

Erodge

It would be cool if the less information (harder) the more reward you get. So if you want to be handheld, yeah you'll fly through the quest but you'll also get a little less reward.

This would encourage engagement in the story.

Driften

I believe general quests regarding common materials general leveling quests should have icons/indicators for the quest givers/location of objectives. But I like the thought of having to dig through npc dialog to find quest information for legendary questlines. Albeit the internet/wikis will destroy the thrill of the hunt after the information itself leaks.

Incarnatus

I think that quests should be meaningful and add to the enjoyment of the game. I would think that when one adds "Breadcrumbs" we are doing this to make the quests easier to complete. The idea there being the easier the quest the faster it can be completed? At such point the quest becomes simply a means to level?

Kohl

Main Scenario quests should be well defined, and visible.
1. Quest icon on top of head.
2. Secondary icon on top of head for npc you need to speak to.
3. Location of mentioned NPCs.

Side quests can be hidden. NPC's you can talk to should be named, making players go and open discussions.

And I'm a big fan of condition triggered quests. Like if you have a kill on certain boss, and you pass through a certain zone, there can be an NPC you can talk to for some special gear reward.

Samson1

I think it needs to be obvious that an NPC has a quest to give without being too overly obnoxious (ex. yellow exclamation/question mark). I think in the footage the name plates of the NPCs were changing color/flashing and I think that's a wonderful start. I would also recommend that all the information you need to complete a quest can be found within the quest text itself (ie. general directions or approximate locations). You do not need to highlight on our map where the quest mobs, items, or people are located. Let us find them on our own as that is part of the adventure.

Asp

I think for the main story-line / progression quest lines should be fairly easy to follow, however you decide to implement it. But there definitely should be side quests and little adventures that build up over a multitude of interactions without any (or minimal) breadcrumbs / guidance.

ThunderGun

Bread is great in moderation.

malarith

I'd like a system where breadcrumbs are set to zero by default, and if you activate them you get a warning message "Activating breadcrumbs will disable the achievement "Seeker of Knowledge". Do you still want to do this?" IE. Have an achievement (or several tiers of achievements) based on not using the breadcrumbs feature, to reward those that didn't use the breadcrumbs option.. This way, the people who enjoy discovering things for themselves get a title, or reward of some kind for their increased effort. Conversely the people who don't enjoy that aspect of gaming can still access their preferred method.

Kurrig

Initially I was confused by how to get quests in Ashes from one of the videos released. My first question I thinking as I was watching was how do I get quests, then it was revealed with the flashing green name on the NPC.

It was just a quick learn, but I can imagine how many people will initially be asking where to find quests that haven't picked up on it from a video or some other source going in. That alone will generate social play. Is that good or bad? Annoying or Helpful?

As far as quest tips, details, I prefer just an indicator on the map of the general area. The rest is provided in the text of the quest details for those who read.

I would also like to see quest givers not necessarily popup in just the node, but out in the zone while exploring. This will promote constant exploration of the zone to find new quest givers that have shown up. You may find players scouring the zone each time a node is updated searching high and low.

I think it would be pretty great to discover new quest givers. That would also promote social play with players or guilds telling members where they found a new quest giver that other players haven't yet discovered.

MyReality

Quest markers above peoples heads is fine but if AoC wants to be different then maybe make the npc's glow one color when they have a quest and another when it is completed. Gives a visual recognition but keeps immersion better.
I think giving the quest details/location of where to go should stay in the text. Makes people actually read the quests and in my mind the community as a whole becomes better players when they have to actively understand what's going on in game instead of mindlessly following prompts.

ThatBardGuy

I really enjoy the idea of having a shaded area that give you an idea where a quest objective might be but no marker on the map to directly identify your location. An example would be the map on Outward. You had to use your navigation skills to figure out where you were going. With this, maybe a cartographer artisan skill could be added as well?

Selo

Different colour on NPCs names with quests
If you have a "kill 10 rats" quest, it should show the general area on map.
When it is "find this npc" some other mechanic migh be nicer.

Argentum401

in my opinion, the best mixture of assistance would be a symbol ore a highlightet area on your map (only on your map and nowhere else) indicating where to find somthing, and maby a indicator for altitude so you know wether something is under ground or not.
-> Thisway you dont need to know all the Lore and geografic just to get your "kill 100 Rats" quest done...

also crutial is a option to make waypoints on your Map which you and teammats can see on the horizon.
-> hate the moment wenn your in a group of friends and want to go to some distant place and somone starts the journey walking/riding in the oposit direction...

I would love a feature where the player would gain extra information if they read the Questdescription carefully instead of just skiping to the end.
-> becaus for one, people should be rewarded if they make the extra effort of reading somtimes repetitive texts and extracting all the jucy bits about weknesses of bosses ore hidden treasure or by doing certain things in certain orders to unlockyn secret quests.
Also, this would gratly encourage people to become familiar with the actuall lore since they would try to unearth all the secrets Vera has to offer.
On the other hand, if you are leveling with your friends and there is a big discussion about real life stuff going on, no one wants to get interruptet every 5 min just to get the next slaughter location.

Jyenh

I don't like autopathing or a trail leading to an objective.

I prefer not having obvious quest markers over NPC heads - different coloured names work well.

There was one game I played a while back that it didn't have markers automatically, but quest text had important NPCs and places highlighted, and when you clicked the important text it would open the map and zoom into the approximate area and you could draw on your map to mark areas...though I'm not sure if this would work in an MMO, I really enjoyed that system.

vhbenin

I like the get lost approach. But an icon would not hurt that a lot. Not on the map but on the npc.


But please don't, please, don't give direction on the map. Or a gps system.

If you want the player to explore he needs to be lost and ask for directions from other players or npcs.

We need the thrill of the unknown!

WookieeAshes

I prefer breadcrumbs. I don't want to waist time searching too long for which NPC or where I need to go. I'm only questing to level up so I starting raiding. More time raiding, dungeons, pvping, and little time questing. But not too much because it's boring. I prefer not to read everything. I want to kill and see the awesome graphics, not read a storyline.

InkEyes

so maybe when you read the whole quest dialog the guy who talks to you tells you to find "peter, in front of the blacksmith", but on the quest tracker it will only tell you to find peter in the trade distric of city X, the game/ map/icon will highlight and point towards the trade district. but finding peter is still up to you.

theaggrocraig

As I'm sure others in the thread have already said, I think each individual aspect of breadcrumbs, such as highlights, icons, paths, or markers should be an option that the players can toggle. I can't think of a good reason that all this *must* be standardized.