You never know Intrepid might add dual wielding shields.
You answered your own question. The anti-double shields crowd doesn't want it added and unless they voice their disapproval, Intrepid could get the impression that there are only people for it and add it because it looks like that's what the playerbase wants. This thread indicates that it's hotly contested at best. That's why we're arguing. We don't want it, and we want it made clear to the devs we don't.
As someone who plays a Duel-Shield Paladin in Pathfinder I 100% support this idea and think it would be amazing!
Also, to all the people who say this ruins "immersion", this game takes place where we have hybrid animals between a snail and a damn horse! So how the hell is that fine but this is all of a sudden too much?
As someone who plays a Duel-Shield Paladin in Pathfinder I 100% support this idea and think it would be amazing!
Also, to all the people who say this ruins "immersion", this game takes place where we have hybrid animals between a snail and a damn horse! So how the hell is that fine but this is all of a sudden too much?
My issue isn't the immersion - it is the fact that if you have a shield and no weapon you would be rendered completely useless in PvP, and thus totally ignored.
The game should not allow completely useless weapon combinations.
"I want a shield in each hand!"/"I want one giant shield for both hands". I am sure there are a few people in history that were of the same mind as you people. I am also willing to wager they died or changed their mind very quickly once it came time to put theory into practice.
"Here lies a the knight that tried. He never harmed a soul with his two shields, but at least he tried."
no for 2x 1handed shields
maybe 1x 2handed shields if it only has defensive abilities/skills, but i can imagine this being annoying to balance since itll either be underpowered/useless or overpowered, so again no!!.
I think 1x 2handed shields could be actually viable for camped streamers xD
I can actually think of a few things they could be viable for.
Sadly, the people that want them were too busy focusing on the aesthetics of the idea, and put no thought at all in to the practicality.
While I am still against the idea in general, if one of these people that want them had have said they could be used as a means of providing mobile cover for archers and mages in large scale PvP combat or in sieges (perhaps also extending the range of their abilities), I don't think I would have been able to find any real flaw in that other than how boring it would be for the player holding the shield. The idea of a player holding it in order to be a functional unit by themselves is stupid - the idea of a player holding it up to team up with someone else has potential.
Sadly, they never came up with any ideas like this, they were too busy thinking about the swagger they would have with that giant / those two shields.
My issue isn't the immersion - it is the fact that if you have a shield and no weapon you would be rendered completely useless in PvP, and thus totally ignored.
The game should not allow completely useless weapon combinations.
Alright, valid point!
However, perhaps the weapon combination would allow the user to have some interesting utility moves that help aid others in combat. For example, the base damage of the shields are the lowest when compared to the other weapons however what if you got some interesting movement abilities?
Here are a few I legit just came up with at the top of my head....
1. Have a skill that does DMG and pushes back enemies in cone. It's a short cool down ability with a quick animation.
2. A bull rush ability that pins the first enemy you hit as you run forward with your shield up. If you hit the enemy at a wall you stun them and do DMG along with scaling DMG the longer you were running for.
3. You hunker down and place the shields in front of you making you an immovable wall. Any DMG both physical and magical is reduced by 50% to you and to any allies that are behind you. This is a toggle ability with a long animation to toggle off/on.
4. While you are falling you slam hard on the ground and the fall DMG that you suffered is amplified x2 to any enemies in the area. They are also stunned.
Bonus Ability!
5. Shield Throw! In DnD they have smaller shields attached to string that you can pull on once you throw them. Maybe for this duel shield you use something smaller allowing you to throw your shield as a projectile and bring it back to you! This would be cool but I doubt this is what people are looking for when they say "duel shield". Still, one can dream haha.
So yeah! I think it would be super interesting to have a weapon more focused on support/utility rather then DMG. And maybe it will suck, but if people want to play a character that is terrible in a 1v1 but can be a huge boon in a team fight then let them! Gives the game a lot more variety in my opinion.
@Noaani
I don't think the pragmatic side is as big of a deal as you make it out to be.
It boils down to numbers, you could just add a damage scaling on every tank ability based on the defensive of one of the shields.
But let's say for arguments sake there would be nothing else you could do than standing around.
So you could still use the player collision to close bottlenecks like gate entrances with a group of "tanks".
Basically forming a shield wall, to prevent further advance.
To be frank that wouldn't actually be that unimmersive.
But just to be clear:
I don't think that 2-hand shields / dual shields is something the game needs to have.
It just doesn't feel like something worth the effort.
Basically forming a shield wall, to prevent further advance.
Remember though, no weapon means no attack, and while the game has player collision, it also has a means for players to push others out of the way.
This is your flaw. There are active skills tied to the primary ass some that are attacks with or without a weapon these skills work. You have no counter to this because a tank or even a cleric would retain its abilities without a weapon slotted. As for any argument that you can’t physically carry two shields .. how the hell does one carry one on one arm and a sword in the other but can’t one shield per arm?? While systems may require a bit more to build the dual shield class it wouldn’t render them useless in pvp as its being group balanced anyways so a good tank with cc could still be a huge nuisance and game changer. Everything you’ve argued against has a simple easy answer the only complexity is the development and building of it
Basically forming a shield wall, to prevent further advance.
Remember though, no weapon means no attack, and while the game has player collision, it also has a means for players to push others out of the way.
Sounds like it is time to add a "stand your ground" ability for tanks so they don't get pushed away
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AryielleMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Honestly I think dual shields would be really fun to marry with the tank+tank.. give the second augment skills to use two shields with. attack with one shield while defending with another or using both for a dual shield smash. It would make the tank class more unique compared to all other mmos where its mainly sword a shield based.
Now to address the logic part... Its a game. Logic is as Steven's logic wants. If they want to allow us to have heavy armor, halberd wielding rouges, why not allow us to enjoy the chance at two shields smacking people to the ground?
Basically forming a shield wall, to prevent further advance.
Remember though, no weapon means no attack, and while the game has player collision, it also has a means for players to push others out of the way.
Sounds like it is time to add a "stand your ground" ability for tanks so they don't get pushed away
Sounds to me like an ability that will be too easily abused - which is why the game will have the ability to push others out of the way.
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deadmanspriceModerator, Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Seeing the arguments between the pro-Dual Shields and anti-Dual Shield folks, I'm curious on how many support it or do not want it in the game. I've set up the poll here: http://www.strawpoll.me/20908035
It's also added in my original post.
Seeing the arguments between the pro-Dual Shields and anti-Dual Shield folks, I'm curious on how many support it or do not want it in the game. I've set up the poll here: http://www.strawpoll.me/20908035
It's also added in my original post.
Two options in a poll on a topic that contains at least 4 main opinions that I can count seems almost purposefully misleading.
This example is pretty funny, because first of all it is a giant - that means almost double height of the average race. Secondly he uses small bucklers with spikes and uses it almost the same way as mace with spikes, but without a handle or more defensively oriented fist weapons.
Can he use it effectively? Doubtful that this is the best weapon of choice for him making it a choice of preference and not efectivity. It looks like more of a fist weapon with bigger area to protect hands - which is far from what others are suggesting under "dual wielding shields"
This example is pretty funny, because first of all it is a giant - that means almost double height of the average race. Secondly he uses small bucklers with spikes and uses it almost the same way as mace with spikes, but without a handle or more defensively oriented fist weapons.
Can he use it effectively? Doubtful that this is the best weapon of choice for him making it a choice of preference and not efectivity. It looks like more of a fist weapon with bigger area to protect hands - which is far from what others are suggesting under "dual wielding shields"
What is a buckler for him, is a giant shield for others. It was a way to be able to duel wield "shields". Of what i remember from the story, it does say that he uses them because he likes them. He is a killing machine, even among other mutatet giants (gigantes).
Personaly i don't care if they add it or not
I don't think that unrealistically big shield where you need to wield with two hands is immersive experience.
Remember big tower shields were designed to create a big wall that would allow for spears/pikes to get between/above to kill the other side.
IMO Having only shield is breaking the immersion the same way as dual wielding big polearms
You kind of contradict yourself here... having a soldier dedicated as a shield bearer for a pike man to strike from behind or an archer to shoot from a protected position was a well-established practice in warfare by multiple cultures. How does it break immersion?
Are you thinking historical spear and shield, which were the favored kit for mobile foot-soldiers or the small unit Roman tower shield formations using a block and stab method that were not in a phalanx formation?
I could understand it seeming kind of silly for a lone adventurer to have only a shield and no sidearm in a realistic world where magic and AOE effects do not exist, but in a world where flaming swords can effectively slash multiple targets (or even do any decent damage against a combatant wearing plate/brigandine) it makes just fine sense for someone to hurt a combatant a little bit or knock them over with a two-handed shield while an archer fires arrows into the enemy.
Are you sure that those dedicated shield bearers had no weapons at their disposal - only shields? Yes they can use it more effectively when their primary hand was helping to push the shield against enemy - especially when the line of two armies met at one place (yes it was rarely a giant place of 1v1 duels that took half in hour like in movies)
Are you sure that those dedicated shield bearers had no weapons at their disposal - only shields? Yes they can use it more effectively when their primary hand was helping to push the shield against enemy - especially when the line of two armies met at one place (yes it was rarely a giant place of 1v1 duels that took half in hour like in movies)
In reality everyone had sidearms, of course. It is a matter of role and situation. Early Hoplite phalanx had spear in one hand and shield in the other, leading to tactics of attacking the side of the formation unprotected at the edge. Later formations had just shield in front with pikemen behind. One fun intermediate form of Macedonia had a shield draped over one side from the neck or shields strapped to each arm while bearing a 4 to 5,5 meter sarissa underhanded and swapping to short swords if the formation failed. This was abandoned for use of shield and gladius by Romans fighting in mountainous terrain in need of greater flexibility, later brought back into use in the 1400s, until shields were simply replaced with cuirass, mail, and helmets worn by pikemen (who would, naturally, also carry a sidearm).
Again, just carrying a shield makes no sense for a lone armed combatant in a realistic world setting. However, a world with magic effects or where a duo of ranged attacker and forward defender could make sense could totally have some limited viability and use for a dedicated shield bearer.
Of course, in reality, those in plate armor generally would not carry a shield since it is largely pointless (pun intended) when you can use that hand to better control a war pick, halberd, or sword.
At first I thought "who the hell duel wields shields?", then I saw OP's profile icon, and went "ahhhh ... I see where you're coming from ......"
I think this is an interesting idea, but one that's hard to implement as something both useful & balanced.
First, seeing someone walking around with one gigantic 2-handed shield or 2 shields just feel hilarious. And allowing ppl to do hilarious things in a sandbox game is usually a good thing.
However in order to stop a dual shielder from being totally useless in fights (for not being able to attack), the devs will have to implement the shield as a weapon, and not an armor / off-hand piece. But then balancing it properly would not be an easy task.
Shield bashes would probably have low dps, but come with a knockback effect, and may be daze / stun effect on heavier shields. Letting the shielder CC someone indefinitely is obviously a bad idea, how would you balance it? Diminishing return on CC? But how far would you diminish it? Even a 0.1s daze / knockback feels like it should interrupt an opponent's cast, which will still make chain shield bashes op. But diminishing the CC return to zero, makes shield bashes entirely useless (coz low dps).
And in cases of dual wielding medium sized shields, or wielding a single 2 handed gigantic shield, how should you model it's supposedly-superior defense ability? It feels like it should be able to completely block off all attacks (especially projectiles) from the front, but then what should be the trade off? Make the shielder move extremely slowly or even fix him in place while he's raising his shields?
And no, please don't add cooldowns to bashes or blocks. It's been years since GW2's release and I still have no idea why my warrior can only raise my shield once (for 3s?) every 30 seconds or so.
The discussion of how to properly balance a dedicated shielder can go on and on, but then it raises yet another question:
Is it worth Intrepid's time & effort? To implement this cheesy (I think you can call it cheesy) playstyle when there're already 64 classes they need to balance?
However in order to stop a dual shielder from being totally useless in fights (for not being able to attack), the devs will have to implement the shield as a weapon, and not an armor / off-hand piece. But then balancing it properly would not be an easy task.
The only way I can see a two handed shield being implemented in to the game in a way that wasn't OP or completely useless is to make it purely defensive - for a second player.
Make it so that in large scale PvP, tank characters are able to wield two handed shields and people with ranged attacks are able to stand behind them. Have a system whereby these players are significantly less mobile, but where they have significantly longer range on their ranged abilities, and perhaps more area of effect to them as well.
This then allows organised PvP to set up archery/artillery sections, and perhaps to protect players working siege equipment, which would add an entire new dimension to large scale PvP.
The only issue with this is that the player with the two handed shield would need to be given some mechanic to keep them occupied, as this would be a boring job otherwise.
Duel weilding shields is still something I find rediculous and impractical in regards to a game play mechanic.
However in order to stop a dual shielder from being totally useless in fights (for not being able to attack), the devs will have to implement the shield as a weapon, and not an armor / off-hand piece. But then balancing it properly would not be an easy task.
The only way I can see a two handed shield being implemented in to the game in a way that wasn't OP or completely useless is to make it purely defensive - for a second player.
Make it so that in large scale PvP, tank characters are able to wield two handed shields and people with ranged attacks are able to stand behind them. Have a system whereby these players are significantly less mobile, but where they have significantly longer range on their ranged abilities, and perhaps more area of effect to them as well.
This then allows organised PvP to set up archery/artillery sections, and perhaps to protect players working siege equipment, which would add an entire new dimension to large scale PvP.
The only issue with this is that the player with the two handed shield would need to be given some mechanic to keep them occupied, as this would be a boring job otherwise.
Duel weilding shields is still something I find rediculous and impractical in regards to a game play mechanic.
I think this pretty much sums up what a dual shield would be used for but since it could be useable in that pvp section (which is a pretty important one btw) it could turn the entire fight upsidedown if used properly. Like noaani said, it could be used to protect your dps/siege weapons and the better the guarding the harder it gets to defend the node, castle or whatever. The possibility to really have an impact in that kind of pvp is real.
I would´t say it should be an entire class or something you run around with the entire time, just an option for tanks or a kind of augment for example. So nothing you go into dungeons with.
The reason why a 2h shield could work in a fantasy setting us due to magical and unique properties that can be imbued into such an item. The biggest issue for this not working irl would be the weight of it and the less than superhuman flexibility/strength to wield an unwieldy weapon such as this.
This comes down to intrepid and their attachment to realism vs rule of cool.
Fantasy worlds can have all sorts of things be possible it just depends on the creators imagination and tastes.
I personally support a 2h shield, and could also see some sort of gauntlet bucklers for dual wielding shields working out.
Comments
I think you gave two perfect answers to your own question:
You answered your own question. The anti-double shields crowd doesn't want it added and unless they voice their disapproval, Intrepid could get the impression that there are only people for it and add it because it looks like that's what the playerbase wants. This thread indicates that it's hotly contested at best. That's why we're arguing. We don't want it, and we want it made clear to the devs we don't.
Also, to all the people who say this ruins "immersion", this game takes place where we have hybrid animals between a snail and a damn horse! So how the hell is that fine but this is all of a sudden too much?
Probably not as stylized.
My issue isn't the immersion - it is the fact that if you have a shield and no weapon you would be rendered completely useless in PvP, and thus totally ignored.
The game should not allow completely useless weapon combinations.
"Here lies a the knight that tried. He never harmed a soul with his two shields, but at least he tried."
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
maybe 1x 2handed shields if it only has defensive abilities/skills, but i can imagine this being annoying to balance since itll either be underpowered/useless or overpowered, so again no!!.
― Plato
Sadly, the people that want them were too busy focusing on the aesthetics of the idea, and put no thought at all in to the practicality.
While I am still against the idea in general, if one of these people that want them had have said they could be used as a means of providing mobile cover for archers and mages in large scale PvP combat or in sieges (perhaps also extending the range of their abilities), I don't think I would have been able to find any real flaw in that other than how boring it would be for the player holding the shield. The idea of a player holding it in order to be a functional unit by themselves is stupid - the idea of a player holding it up to team up with someone else has potential.
Sadly, they never came up with any ideas like this, they were too busy thinking about the swagger they would have with that giant / those two shields.
Alright, valid point!
However, perhaps the weapon combination would allow the user to have some interesting utility moves that help aid others in combat. For example, the base damage of the shields are the lowest when compared to the other weapons however what if you got some interesting movement abilities?
Here are a few I legit just came up with at the top of my head....
1. Have a skill that does DMG and pushes back enemies in cone. It's a short cool down ability with a quick animation.
2. A bull rush ability that pins the first enemy you hit as you run forward with your shield up. If you hit the enemy at a wall you stun them and do DMG along with scaling DMG the longer you were running for.
3. You hunker down and place the shields in front of you making you an immovable wall. Any DMG both physical and magical is reduced by 50% to you and to any allies that are behind you. This is a toggle ability with a long animation to toggle off/on.
4. While you are falling you slam hard on the ground and the fall DMG that you suffered is amplified x2 to any enemies in the area. They are also stunned.
Bonus Ability!
5. Shield Throw! In DnD they have smaller shields attached to string that you can pull on once you throw them. Maybe for this duel shield you use something smaller allowing you to throw your shield as a projectile and bring it back to you! This would be cool but I doubt this is what people are looking for when they say "duel shield". Still, one can dream haha.
So yeah! I think it would be super interesting to have a weapon more focused on support/utility rather then DMG. And maybe it will suck, but if people want to play a character that is terrible in a 1v1 but can be a huge boon in a team fight then let them! Gives the game a lot more variety in my opinion.
I don't think the pragmatic side is as big of a deal as you make it out to be.
It boils down to numbers, you could just add a damage scaling on every tank ability based on the defensive of one of the shields.
But let's say for arguments sake there would be nothing else you could do than standing around.
So you could still use the player collision to close bottlenecks like gate entrances with a group of "tanks".
Basically forming a shield wall, to prevent further advance.
To be frank that wouldn't actually be that unimmersive.
But just to be clear:
I don't think that 2-hand shields / dual shields is something the game needs to have.
It just doesn't feel like something worth the effort.
This is your flaw. There are active skills tied to the primary ass some that are attacks with or without a weapon these skills work. You have no counter to this because a tank or even a cleric would retain its abilities without a weapon slotted. As for any argument that you can’t physically carry two shields .. how the hell does one carry one on one arm and a sword in the other but can’t one shield per arm?? While systems may require a bit more to build the dual shield class it wouldn’t render them useless in pvp as its being group balanced anyways so a good tank with cc could still be a huge nuisance and game changer. Everything you’ve argued against has a simple easy answer the only complexity is the development and building of it
Sounds like it is time to add a "stand your ground" ability for tanks so they don't get pushed away
Now to address the logic part... Its a game. Logic is as Steven's logic wants. If they want to allow us to have heavy armor, halberd wielding rouges, why not allow us to enjoy the chance at two shields smacking people to the ground?
Sounds to me like an ability that will be too easily abused - which is why the game will have the ability to push others out of the way.
It's also added in my original post.
Two options in a poll on a topic that contains at least 4 main opinions that I can count seems almost purposefully misleading.
Can he use it effectively? Doubtful that this is the best weapon of choice for him making it a choice of preference and not efectivity. It looks like more of a fist weapon with bigger area to protect hands - which is far from what others are suggesting under "dual wielding shields"
― Plato
What is a buckler for him, is a giant shield for others. It was a way to be able to duel wield "shields". Of what i remember from the story, it does say that he uses them because he likes them. He is a killing machine, even among other mutatet giants (gigantes).
Personaly i don't care if they add it or not
You kind of contradict yourself here... having a soldier dedicated as a shield bearer for a pike man to strike from behind or an archer to shoot from a protected position was a well-established practice in warfare by multiple cultures. How does it break immersion?
Are you thinking historical spear and shield, which were the favored kit for mobile foot-soldiers or the small unit Roman tower shield formations using a block and stab method that were not in a phalanx formation?
I could understand it seeming kind of silly for a lone adventurer to have only a shield and no sidearm in a realistic world where magic and AOE effects do not exist, but in a world where flaming swords can effectively slash multiple targets (or even do any decent damage against a combatant wearing plate/brigandine) it makes just fine sense for someone to hurt a combatant a little bit or knock them over with a two-handed shield while an archer fires arrows into the enemy.
― Plato
In reality everyone had sidearms, of course. It is a matter of role and situation. Early Hoplite phalanx had spear in one hand and shield in the other, leading to tactics of attacking the side of the formation unprotected at the edge. Later formations had just shield in front with pikemen behind. One fun intermediate form of Macedonia had a shield draped over one side from the neck or shields strapped to each arm while bearing a 4 to 5,5 meter sarissa underhanded and swapping to short swords if the formation failed. This was abandoned for use of shield and gladius by Romans fighting in mountainous terrain in need of greater flexibility, later brought back into use in the 1400s, until shields were simply replaced with cuirass, mail, and helmets worn by pikemen (who would, naturally, also carry a sidearm).
Again, just carrying a shield makes no sense for a lone armed combatant in a realistic world setting. However, a world with magic effects or where a duo of ranged attacker and forward defender could make sense could totally have some limited viability and use for a dedicated shield bearer.
Of course, in reality, those in plate armor generally would not carry a shield since it is largely pointless (pun intended) when you can use that hand to better control a war pick, halberd, or sword.
I think this is an interesting idea, but one that's hard to implement as something both useful & balanced.
First, seeing someone walking around with one gigantic 2-handed shield or 2 shields just feel hilarious. And allowing ppl to do hilarious things in a sandbox game is usually a good thing.
However in order to stop a dual shielder from being totally useless in fights (for not being able to attack), the devs will have to implement the shield as a weapon, and not an armor / off-hand piece. But then balancing it properly would not be an easy task.
Shield bashes would probably have low dps, but come with a knockback effect, and may be daze / stun effect on heavier shields. Letting the shielder CC someone indefinitely is obviously a bad idea, how would you balance it? Diminishing return on CC? But how far would you diminish it? Even a 0.1s daze / knockback feels like it should interrupt an opponent's cast, which will still make chain shield bashes op. But diminishing the CC return to zero, makes shield bashes entirely useless (coz low dps).
And in cases of dual wielding medium sized shields, or wielding a single 2 handed gigantic shield, how should you model it's supposedly-superior defense ability? It feels like it should be able to completely block off all attacks (especially projectiles) from the front, but then what should be the trade off? Make the shielder move extremely slowly or even fix him in place while he's raising his shields?
And no, please don't add cooldowns to bashes or blocks. It's been years since GW2's release and I still have no idea why my warrior can only raise my shield once (for 3s?) every 30 seconds or so.
The discussion of how to properly balance a dedicated shielder can go on and on, but then it raises yet another question:
Is it worth Intrepid's time & effort? To implement this cheesy (I think you can call it cheesy) playstyle when there're already 64 classes they need to balance?
Make it so that in large scale PvP, tank characters are able to wield two handed shields and people with ranged attacks are able to stand behind them. Have a system whereby these players are significantly less mobile, but where they have significantly longer range on their ranged abilities, and perhaps more area of effect to them as well.
This then allows organised PvP to set up archery/artillery sections, and perhaps to protect players working siege equipment, which would add an entire new dimension to large scale PvP.
The only issue with this is that the player with the two handed shield would need to be given some mechanic to keep them occupied, as this would be a boring job otherwise.
Duel weilding shields is still something I find rediculous and impractical in regards to a game play mechanic.
I think this pretty much sums up what a dual shield would be used for but since it could be useable in that pvp section (which is a pretty important one btw) it could turn the entire fight upsidedown if used properly. Like noaani said, it could be used to protect your dps/siege weapons and the better the guarding the harder it gets to defend the node, castle or whatever. The possibility to really have an impact in that kind of pvp is real.
I would´t say it should be an entire class or something you run around with the entire time, just an option for tanks or a kind of augment for example. So nothing you go into dungeons with.
This comes down to intrepid and their attachment to realism vs rule of cool.
Fantasy worlds can have all sorts of things be possible it just depends on the creators imagination and tastes.
I personally support a 2h shield, and could also see some sort of gauntlet bucklers for dual wielding shields working out.