Glad to have found a pre-existing thread about this! Some good points and counter-points, herein. As a bonus, I had no idea dual-shields served an IRL ceremonial purpose.
Yours truly WOULD SUPPORT a weaponized main-hand 2nd shield. They obviously can't be large items, but two medium round shields could be made to look realistic. The "weapon" shield could be blunt around the edges to imitate blunt-weapons, and serrated or bladed to imitate sharp weapons.
While two super-large shields might be a tad immersion-breaking or un-realistic, it wouldn't feel wrong to have 2 reasonable-sized shields, towards this end. Given that we'll have a Tank/Tank class (Guardian), it doesn't feel out-of-place.
But that additional defense will only allow you to live longer if someone is attacking you.
Like a Tank/Tank?
Have seen a lot of counter-points relating to PvP. A lot these points are mitigated by the possibility of Tanks having an ability that would mitigate a fair amount of damage from other allied players when enemy players aren't focusing down the tank. This was one of the VERY few good elements from SWTOR's PvP.
To be fair, though, Tanks aren't typically popular in PvP in any games that yours truly has personally experienced, anyways; Tank viability in PvP doesn't feel like a good counterpoint to dual shields.
I could understand it seeming kind of silly for a lone adventurer to have only a shield and no sidearm in a realistic world where magic and AOE effects do not exist, but in a world where flaming swords can effectively slash multiple targets (or even do any decent damage against a combatant wearing plate/brigandine) it makes just fine sense for someone to hurt a combatant a little bit or knock them over with a two-handed shield while an archer fires arrows into the enemy.
Huzzah! In-addition, since weapons can be changed in combat, the 2nd, weaponized shield could always be swapped out for a different weapon, should a situation call for it.
Tank viability in PvP doesn't feel like a good counterpoint to dual shields.
Sure it is.
Every argument for adding duel shields results in tanks being used purely in other roles in PvP. There was an idea earlier on I the thread that would have turned tanks in to CC batteries, and your suggestion here would see tanks sitting behind a row of mages and healers doing nothing other than offering a damage reduction buff from a location where they cant be attacked.
The only way duel shield or two handed shield could become somewhat works is if the player in question is protecting something or someone specific - and that something or someone was worth creating an entire build for.
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xydrassialMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Every argument for adding duel shields results in tanks being used purely in other roles in PvP. There was an idea earlier on I the thread that would have turned tanks in to CC batteries, and your suggestion here would see tanks sitting behind a row of mages and healers doing nothing other than offering a damage reduction buff from a location where they cant be attacked.
The only way duel shield or two handed shield could become somewhat works is if the player in question is protecting something or someone specific - and that something or someone was worth creating an entire build for.
So long as the 2nd shield didn't add additional defense bonuses (i.e. it's got weapon stats only), then couldn't it just be an intrinsic cosmetic choice?
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Maybe two shields would be okay if they were more like Tortoise Blades from the AD&D Dark Sun campaign.
They are more like large punching daggers with huge guards than true shields, but it’s pretty close to a double shield idea.
Every argument for adding duel shields results in tanks being used purely in other roles in PvP. There was an idea earlier on I the thread that would have turned tanks in to CC batteries, and your suggestion here would see tanks sitting behind a row of mages and healers doing nothing other than offering a damage reduction buff from a location where they cant be attacked.
The only way duel shield or two handed shield could become somewhat works is if the player in question is protecting something or someone specific - and that something or someone was worth creating an entire build for.
So long as the 2nd shield didn't add additional defense bonuses (i.e. it's got weapon stats only), then couldn't it just be an intrinsic cosmetic choice?
It could, but then you have no offensive ability.
While some people may be fine with that, they would be totally ignored in a PvP setting - why would I attack someone incapable of attacking me?
I don't think a two handed shield would make much sense for the kind of combat we will be engaged in. Likewise dual wielding shields wouldn't make much sense either. You might as well have the sub class (Door Stop). I mean Gandalf didn't need 2 shields when he did his None Shall Pass!
I don't think a two handed shield would make much sense for the kind of combat we will be engaged in. Likewise dual wielding shields wouldn't make much sense either. You might as well have the sub class (Door Stop). I mean Gandalf didn't need 2 shields when he did his None Shall Pass!
Generally speaking I agree.
I can see the potential for a two handed shield build in sieges or large scale PvP for mages or rangers to stand behind in order to operate like artillery, but that would necessitate the shield wielder to function as a buff bot, massively extending the range of the mages/rangers.
I don't see it ad enjoyable gameplay, but I do see it as a possibility.
Other than that, I cant see a place for them at all.
I don't think a two handed shield would make much sense for the kind of combat we will be engaged in. Likewise dual wielding shields wouldn't make much sense either. You might as well have the sub class (Door Stop). I mean Gandalf didn't need 2 shields when he did his None Shall Pass!
Generally speaking I agree.
I can see the potential for a two handed shield build in sieges or large scale PvP for mages or rangers to stand behind in order to operate like artillery, but that would necessitate the shield wielder to function as a buff bot, massively extending the range of the mages/rangers.
I don't see it ad enjoyable gameplay, but I do see it as a possibility.
Other than that, I cant see a place for them at all.
Well A massive 2h shield could have its uses be packed behind stationary effects that bolster the wearer. For example, you get a passive defense bonus after standing still for x seconds. It could also grant you bashing abilities or have channeled abilities that do various things.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for there to be a 2h shield fighting style in a world full of might and magic. It just requires more work to make a reality.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for there to be a 2h shield fighting style in a world full of might and magic. It just requires more work to make a reality.
To me, in order to be viable, there needs to be an offensive aspect to the build.
If you have a shield that takes up both hands, you have no real offensive ability to speak of.
This is why - to me - any such build needs to be based around the notion of the shield user using that shield to protect people that are almost totally offensive based. A shield bash isn't really enough of an offensive ability to make the build viable.
I actually like the idea as a means to turn mages and rangers in to long range artillery in a siege or large scale PvP - assuming someone can come up with a way to make that enjoyable for the person holding the shield. I personally believe that the game would be better off if it did have a means to allow players to set up long range fire like this, it would add a LOT of strategy to large scale PvP.
From that perspective, I see the concept of two handed shields being a way to make that viable and balanced. If you need one shield carrier in order to turn 2 mages/rangers in to this artillery, then those two players should be able to deal the damage of 3 - 4 players - 3 because that is how many characters are being used, but potentially 4 because it takes coordernation and teamwork to pull off, as well as a high degree of organization, and these things should be rewarded.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for there to be a 2h shield fighting style in a world full of might and magic. It just requires more work to make a reality.
To me, in order to be viable, there needs to be an offensive aspect to the build.
If you have a shield that takes up both hands, you have no real offensive ability to speak of.
This is why - to me - any such build needs to be based around the notion of the shield user using that shield to protect people that are almost totally offensive based. A shield bash isn't really enough of an offensive ability to make the build viable.
I actually like the idea as a means to turn mages and rangers in to long range artillery in a siege or large scale PvP - assuming someone can come up with a way to make that enjoyable for the person holding the shield. I personally believe that the game would be better off if it did have a means to allow players to set up long range fire like this, it would add a LOT of strategy to large scale PvP.
From that perspective, I see the concept of two handed shields being a way to make that viable and balanced. If you need one shield carrier in order to turn 2 mages/rangers in to this artillery, then those two players should be able to deal the damage of 3 - 4 players - 3 because that is how many characters are being used, but potentially 4 because it takes coordernation and teamwork to pull off, as well as a high degree of organization, and these things should be rewarded.
Well I am not expecting it to be a damage dealer without some extensive meta-customization of a specific build to do such a thing. Which could very well happen to any type of "weapon" in the game. Weapons are supposedly going to have their differences and a 2h shield would most likely be the most defensive option, or at least one of the more defensive options to take. Hell it could take on a more supportive role like you have given as an example and be for large setups or maybe even the go-to weapon for large-scale pvp when defending strategic areas of the battlefield.
Perhaps dual-wielding shields is silly, but I can see some real promise for a 2h shield.
I'd like to say that there was such a thing as a 2-handed shield, called a mantlet. It was siege equipment, rarely repositioned to provide cover for the attacking combatants.
You can easily see the development of these things becoming the protective encasement for siege rams.
I can honestly see these being used in a siege battle in AoC as well, though maybe not interactive but just part of the setup of a siege.
These are tools though, like a ladder or a siege tower. Retooling them as personal equipment would mean running around with a cabin wall on your back, and to not look completely out of wack with other weapons, those would have to be at least the size of Monster Hunter game weapons, which are ridiculous and cartoony. Not to call it lesser for that, but you take a good hard look at the elf reveal and tell me this game is trying to go for a ridiculous and cartoony vibe.
Aye - now that I've heard Bard say it in 2017, and Steven reiterate this sentiment as recent as 6 months ago, I'll let this notion go. I was just hoping they were in @Noaani 's mindset of thinking people were asking for 2 *defensive* shields, when folks like yours truly is asking that 1 of them be a *weapon*.
I'd like to say that there was such a thing as a 2-handed shield, called a mantlet. It was siege equipment, rarely repositioned to provide cover for the attacking combatants.
You can easily see the development of these things becoming the protective encasement for siege rams.
I can honestly see these being used in a siege battle in AoC as well, though maybe not interactive but just part of the setup of a siege.
These are tools though, like a ladder or a siege tower. Retooling them as personal equipment would mean running around with a cabin wall on your back, and to not look completely out of wack with other weapons, those would have to be at least the size of Monster Hunter game weapons, which are ridiculous and cartoony. Not to call it lesser for that, but you take a good hard look at the elf reveal and tell me this game is trying to go for a ridiculous and cartoony vibe.
Spell effects don't count.
Ooh - I do hope we see things akin to this in sieges. Moveable barriers for cover, and specialized emplacements that players can duck behind.
For anyone who played SWG in live-production past a certain point, we got the late-game addition of NPC Player City Sieges. It worked by featuring a 30-minute build phase, then a 30-minute combat phase. As someone who'd played a Trader as a main toon (Shipwright), it was great to have such a vital function as making the tools that others would build with - and the concrete barriers to hide behind, to compensate for my lack of hit-points!
While some people may be fine with that, they would be totally ignored in a PvP setting - why would I attack someone incapable of attacking me?
Well again, what if the 2nd shield was a weapon?
This is something that doesn't exist, and would make no sense to exist.
A shield is - by necessity - fairly large and bulky. It is cumbersome, fairly hard to move around - at least in comparison to a weapon. Not only is it slow, but there is no inherent way for it to deal as much damage as an actual weapon.
Going up against someone - anyone - with such a slow moving weapon, low damage item as your "weapon" is not something people wanting to survive the day would do.
As I said earlier in this thread, even if you gave such a player a shield bash - which is the only logical attack - that still leaves them effectively offensivless.
While some people may be fine with that, they would be totally ignored in a PvP setting - why would I attack someone incapable of attacking me?
Well again, what if the 2nd shield was a weapon?
This is something that doesn't exist, and would make no sense to exist.
A shield is - by necessity - fairly large and bulky. It is cumbersome, fairly hard to move around - at least in comparison to a weapon. Not only is it slow, but there is no inherent way for it to deal as much damage as an actual weapon.
Going up against someone - anyone - with such a slow moving weapon, low damage item as your "weapon" is not something people wanting to survive the day would do.
As I said earlier in this thread, even if you gave such a player a shield bash - which is the only logical attack - that still leaves them effectively offensivless.
This is why 2 shields is silly.
Well I'm imagining a few ways the 2h shield could be used offensively. First move, Ram, you charge a short distance and smash the target with the sheer weight of you and your shield. Add shield spikes to increase its damage.
2nd move, Bash, a simple slamming of the shield for some damage and maybe a stacking slow or debuff.
3rd move, Toe-nail Clipper, You raise your shield overhead and slam its bottom into the ground dealing a good amount of damage and tripping the target. Probably want a decent cooldown on that one.
Without a real understanding of how many attacks you can pick up from equipping and talenting your weapons this is the best I could do. But this is purely the offensive side of a 2h shield and this could be expanded on in a monster hunter fashion within a fantasy world that should have a decently high amount of tech knowledge.
I'd like to say that there was such a thing as a 2-handed shield, called a mantlet. It was siege equipment, rarely repositioned to provide cover for the attacking combatants.
Different type of shield. You wouldn't say that you could wield a Covid Face-Shield in battle just because it has the word "shield" in it. The one you've mentioned wasn't ever designed to be picked up by a skirmishing infantryman, and most were so big that they had to be slowly pushed around on wheels. The "shields" in this game/thread are the individual personal shields, not the larger area-defence ones.
I imagine that the Dual-Shielders would quickly get sick of it after being dropped from every raid they try to join, for having such a suboptimal gimping playstyle. Thank goodness Intrepid have absolutely no plans to implement this ever.
Does anyone here actually expect dual shields or two handed shields to get added to the game?
I thought it was pretty well understood that both are too silly to be seriously considered?
/thread
This thread was a non-starter. It will absolutely not happen. Steven already made the declaration looooong ago, back during one of the older sets of forums. You may as well speculate about whether they should include spaceships if you want to talk about features you’re never going to see in this game. The thread could have been two posts long, and if we weren’t bored waiting for things to happen it probably would have been.
Do we really need dual threads for dual shields? Doubling the thread won't achieve the desired results. I want IS to give us a spell book on a chain to whip around more than I want double shields.
Comments
well that's the thing. They are making the shield a weapon, its just a different fighting style.
Yours truly WOULD SUPPORT a weaponized main-hand 2nd shield. They obviously can't be large items, but two medium round shields could be made to look realistic. The "weapon" shield could be blunt around the edges to imitate blunt-weapons, and serrated or bladed to imitate sharp weapons.
While two super-large shields might be a tad immersion-breaking or un-realistic, it wouldn't feel wrong to have 2 reasonable-sized shields, towards this end. Given that we'll have a Tank/Tank class (Guardian), it doesn't feel out-of-place.
Maybe a specialized skin/cosmetic?
Like a Tank/Tank?
Have seen a lot of counter-points relating to PvP. A lot these points are mitigated by the possibility of Tanks having an ability that would mitigate a fair amount of damage from other allied players when enemy players aren't focusing down the tank. This was one of the VERY few good elements from SWTOR's PvP.
To be fair, though, Tanks aren't typically popular in PvP in any games that yours truly has personally experienced, anyways; Tank viability in PvP doesn't feel like a good counterpoint to dual shields.
Huzzah! In-addition, since weapons can be changed in combat, the 2nd, weaponized shield could always be swapped out for a different weapon, should a situation call for it.
Every argument for adding duel shields results in tanks being used purely in other roles in PvP. There was an idea earlier on I the thread that would have turned tanks in to CC batteries, and your suggestion here would see tanks sitting behind a row of mages and healers doing nothing other than offering a damage reduction buff from a location where they cant be attacked.
The only way duel shield or two handed shield could become somewhat works is if the player in question is protecting something or someone specific - and that something or someone was worth creating an entire build for.
So long as the 2nd shield didn't add additional defense bonuses (i.e. it's got weapon stats only), then couldn't it just be an intrinsic cosmetic choice?
They are more like large punching daggers with huge guards than true shields, but it’s pretty close to a double shield idea.
Yeah, it really would.
That’s all great until you sneeze and decapitate yourself.
It could, but then you have no offensive ability.
While some people may be fine with that, they would be totally ignored in a PvP setting - why would I attack someone incapable of attacking me?
Generally speaking I agree.
I can see the potential for a two handed shield build in sieges or large scale PvP for mages or rangers to stand behind in order to operate like artillery, but that would necessitate the shield wielder to function as a buff bot, massively extending the range of the mages/rangers.
I don't see it ad enjoyable gameplay, but I do see it as a possibility.
Other than that, I cant see a place for them at all.
Well A massive 2h shield could have its uses be packed behind stationary effects that bolster the wearer. For example, you get a passive defense bonus after standing still for x seconds. It could also grant you bashing abilities or have channeled abilities that do various things.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for there to be a 2h shield fighting style in a world full of might and magic. It just requires more work to make a reality.
If you have a shield that takes up both hands, you have no real offensive ability to speak of.
This is why - to me - any such build needs to be based around the notion of the shield user using that shield to protect people that are almost totally offensive based. A shield bash isn't really enough of an offensive ability to make the build viable.
I actually like the idea as a means to turn mages and rangers in to long range artillery in a siege or large scale PvP - assuming someone can come up with a way to make that enjoyable for the person holding the shield. I personally believe that the game would be better off if it did have a means to allow players to set up long range fire like this, it would add a LOT of strategy to large scale PvP.
From that perspective, I see the concept of two handed shields being a way to make that viable and balanced. If you need one shield carrier in order to turn 2 mages/rangers in to this artillery, then those two players should be able to deal the damage of 3 - 4 players - 3 because that is how many characters are being used, but potentially 4 because it takes coordernation and teamwork to pull off, as well as a high degree of organization, and these things should be rewarded.
I thought it was pretty well understood that both are too silly to be seriously considered?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
/thread
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Well I am not expecting it to be a damage dealer without some extensive meta-customization of a specific build to do such a thing. Which could very well happen to any type of "weapon" in the game. Weapons are supposedly going to have their differences and a 2h shield would most likely be the most defensive option, or at least one of the more defensive options to take. Hell it could take on a more supportive role like you have given as an example and be for large setups or maybe even the go-to weapon for large-scale pvp when defending strategic areas of the battlefield.
Perhaps dual-wielding shields is silly, but I can see some real promise for a 2h shield.
You can easily see the development of these things becoming the protective encasement for siege rams.
I can honestly see these being used in a siege battle in AoC as well, though maybe not interactive but just part of the setup of a siege.
These are tools though, like a ladder or a siege tower. Retooling them as personal equipment would mean running around with a cabin wall on your back, and to not look completely out of wack with other weapons, those would have to be at least the size of Monster Hunter game weapons, which are ridiculous and cartoony. Not to call it lesser for that, but you take a good hard look at the elf reveal and tell me this game is trying to go for a ridiculous and cartoony vibe.
Spell effects don't count.
Well again, what if the 2nd shield was a weapon?
Aye - now that I've heard Bard say it in 2017, and Steven reiterate this sentiment as recent as 6 months ago, I'll let this notion go. I was just hoping they were in @Noaani 's mindset of thinking people were asking for 2 *defensive* shields, when folks like yours truly is asking that 1 of them be a *weapon*.
Ooh - I do hope we see things akin to this in sieges. Moveable barriers for cover, and specialized emplacements that players can duck behind.
For anyone who played SWG in live-production past a certain point, we got the late-game addition of NPC Player City Sieges. It worked by featuring a 30-minute build phase, then a 30-minute combat phase. As someone who'd played a Trader as a main toon (Shipwright), it was great to have such a vital function as making the tools that others would build with - and the concrete barriers to hide behind, to compensate for my lack of hit-points!
A shield is - by necessity - fairly large and bulky. It is cumbersome, fairly hard to move around - at least in comparison to a weapon. Not only is it slow, but there is no inherent way for it to deal as much damage as an actual weapon.
Going up against someone - anyone - with such a slow moving weapon, low damage item as your "weapon" is not something people wanting to survive the day would do.
As I said earlier in this thread, even if you gave such a player a shield bash - which is the only logical attack - that still leaves them effectively offensivless.
This is why 2 shields is silly.
Well I'm imagining a few ways the 2h shield could be used offensively. First move, Ram, you charge a short distance and smash the target with the sheer weight of you and your shield. Add shield spikes to increase its damage.
2nd move, Bash, a simple slamming of the shield for some damage and maybe a stacking slow or debuff.
3rd move, Toe-nail Clipper, You raise your shield overhead and slam its bottom into the ground dealing a good amount of damage and tripping the target. Probably want a decent cooldown on that one.
Without a real understanding of how many attacks you can pick up from equipping and talenting your weapons this is the best I could do. But this is purely the offensive side of a 2h shield and this could be expanded on in a monster hunter fashion within a fantasy world that should have a decently high amount of tech knowledge.
Different type of shield. You wouldn't say that you could wield a Covid Face-Shield in battle just because it has the word "shield" in it. The one you've mentioned wasn't ever designed to be picked up by a skirmishing infantryman, and most were so big that they had to be slowly pushed around on wheels. The "shields" in this game/thread are the individual personal shields, not the larger area-defence ones.
I imagine that the Dual-Shielders would quickly get sick of it after being dropped from every raid they try to join, for having such a suboptimal gimping playstyle. Thank goodness Intrepid have absolutely no plans to implement this ever.