A duty finder like FFXIV or WoW. Nothing breaks immersion for me more than using a menu to group me with random people to take on a dungeon where no one needs to speak. I may as well be playing with bots.
Personally what breaks immersion for me is being able to just alt tab and look up a quest or boss fight.
I think while having information is important. The magic of discovery and learning is what really gets your gears grinding and gets you lost in a game.
Using PoE as an example. I've gotten so lost in game just trying to get myself a build that i call my own. Not using any outside tools or websites. Just straight up using in game tools and getting absolutely lost in it.
Having to talk to someone and ask them hey man where did you get that cool sword? Or getting a group just naturally because you're doing the same quests with someone in the area.
I think the game has to be complete on its own, in its own world, without the need for outside interference or tools.
I know it can also just be a choice of like not looking up a boss fight or not looking up a quest. But i feel if the option is there, the path of least resistance will always be taken.
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T ElfMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited September 2020
One I forgot to add:
NPCs that don't react to what is happening around them. If a monster is attacking the town they shouldn't act like nothing out of the ordinary is happening...they should be cowering, running away, or fighting. Make them somewhat aware when extraordinary situations present themselves.
A HUD bad use, in my opinion, A HUD that covers much of the screen just destroys the landscape. As well a bad zoom/cam, not too far(Cuz i think it takes away the feeling that you are in a large map, my opinion) nor too close.
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zenniaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
First, in response to the question, "Is it important?". For me, immersion is vital for longevity. I'm not saying I don't play shallow games with fun combat mechanics occasionally *cough*TERA*cough*. But a distinctive world that seems to be a character in and of itself is one of the things that makes me return to a game over and over (and stay longer while I'm there).
Stuff that *doesn't* make the world distinctive:
1.) Repetitive NPC dialogue: You can spend time creating a beautifully realized world, but if I run across the 15th NPC in town remarking on how hot it is today in exactly the same tone, that really breaks immersion for me.
2.) Pointless or thinly veiled tasks: I realize it isn't an MMO, but I have to point to the Witcher 3 here. Part of the reason that world is so rich and memorable to me is that the "side" quests are every bit as impactful most of the time as the main scenario quests. Investing time and effort into quest creation builds a rich and immersive world, whether you're talking single-player RPG or MMO.
3.) Procedurally-generated environments: If I ride over the hill on my (utterly generic) horse and see pretty but bland vista number 273 that looks remarkably similar to pretty but bland vistas number 1-272, I'm not going to be very immersed or invested in the world. I'm going to be bored and uninspired.
4.) Spelling and/or grammar errors in quest text: This is huge for me. I can sink into well-written quest text just like I can into a great book. And just like with a great book, if the editor didn't do such a hot job, it can completely ruin the experience and pull me out of the story. Excellent writing and editing go a very long way.
Immersion is one of those really subjective topics. It's vital to some, totally irrelevant to others, and even where it's important, there's little consensus on what immersion actually means. It's one of those artistic elements of crafting a great story that you just know when you run across it.
For me at least off the top of my head is quest related drop rates of an item that sounds like it should be stupidly common. For example "Collect 6 bear claws from Rabid Bears" then takes killing 30+ bears. For me those are immersion breaking.
Another is a fleeing mob that runs and then suddenly is back at full HP and coming back at you. If they flee and you don't continute to kill them then they should be on a "cooldown" before they engage you again to simulate healing period, plenty of times I've chased down a fleeing mob to have it suddenly regen hp and re-engage.
For me the biggest immersion breaking item is one I fear will be heavily prevalent in AoC;
Mob-tagging, or lack therefore, due to game mechanics.
I, like what I assume are many on these forums, played the New World preview a few weeks ago. While there is nothing like the experience of thousands of players playing a game on day one with everyone running around trying to figure out what we are doing... The worst part of the whole preview for me was not only 80% of all quest were to "kill X mobs, loot X items", but when you have dozens of other players vying for the same thing and you cant get any credit for your quest, it makes those boring quest last about 10x longer than they should.
Usually with MMOs as players progress to higher levels and different zones this becomes slightly less of a problem (but still a problem nonetheless). But with AoC focusing on players staying in the same sphere of influence leveling up your zones instead of traveling to new ones, I fear there will be a constant struggle against your own zone's players for who will the tag on kills.
This is also not to mention that usually support professions get royally screwed when it comes to getting any credit for tags....
Things that break immersion and games I think have done this well:
Non-responsive combat: I dislike when the combat in a game feels unresponsive and not fluid. An example of a game that (in my opinion) has very good and responsive combat is Aion.
Repetitive quests or gathering too much of the same items: nothing breaks immersion more than having to complete too many of the same quests or having to gather 50 of the same rare stones for a blacksmith. Guild Wars 2 has really done this right in my opinion. Quests are nothing but story there, and the 'hearts' are usually quite different. Another big thing I like about GW2 is the achievement system when it comes to acquiring legendary items. This is basically a very long and detailed story (chopped in many small pieces) where you acquire necessary components, through very different content. Sometimes gathering, killing mobs, jumping puzzles, crafting and more are needed instead of your often gather 50 of this, then 30 of that.
Quest overload: having too many quests at once, but also being restricted in the amount of quests you can take. This is a hard balance it find. I don't like to skip quests, so restricting the amount of quests you can have at once won't solve this problem. I want to accept all of them, though I don't wanna be overloaded with quests so I don't know where to start. Aion and WoW (Classic) have done this well I think.
A huge thing that helps immersion is the variety of flora and fauna, and these being dynamic. So many different animals, different environments and having these animals roam around. Haven't really seen it done yet (GW2 a tiny bit), but to have predators roaming around stalking and killing prey. From what I've seen in the dev updates on Twitch/YouTube, you are doing a pretty good job at creating a dynamic environment with having season and knowing you .
Smaller things I think are important: voice acting, representative armor for your level of power, not having overly expensive items/services.
It is alright to use recolors or different versions of same monster. Pretty sure that When the game comes out there will a variety of monsters and mobs. However kind of a let down when expansion hits and only a hand ful of new monsters are implemented. Another thing is humanoids are all the same size have the same gear same color look like a bunch of copies. Lets say there are a pack fo wolves how difficult would it be for one or two of them to have lets say different eye color. White wolf with blue eyes pretty cool owl with golden eyes pretty cool.
Already mentioned this but those quest icons have always looked out of place to me prefer some other method.
Immersion is very important but it's a delicate balance when also trying to respect players time. Not everyone can get hours a day to play so it's important to bring in convenience in place of the more mundane tasks. With that being said...
Too much clutter A big killer from a visual stand point is having too much clutter on the screen or in the environment. By clutter I mean large or out-of-place UI frames, large in game visual indicators that seem out of place (quest icons above an NPC for example), and overuse of the same monster/building skins and forms.
A generic story/role I can't get into the story if the game starts with me at level 1 and I get sent on a quest to kill some monster that has been holding the town hostage for X amount of time that only I can kill and be the hero yet the Lv 50 Guards can't do anything about it. It's just not a believable character development.
Choices need to matter Making decisions in quests and other areas that have tangible differences and effects on the world and your game make it so much more immersive. It's very disengaging to embark on an epic quest to change the world and upon completion nothing is actually different. (Instanced content)
Sense of Scale When you're running around the world and going into different regions or cities, the sense of scale can be a huge factor to feeling immersed. Imagine being a dwarf and running into an orc city, how big everything should feel or being an orc going into a dwarf city how small everything should feel.
NPC lives When you walk through a bustling Metropolis, full of NPCs and players alike, its important for those NPCs to be doing something relevant to their lives. Have meaningful dialogue with other NPCs about events going on in the area (FF7 Remake I feel did this well). It's awesome when NPCs talk to you or amongst themselves around you, but when they just repeat the same thing over and over again it gets disengaging really fast (I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee).
Find me on Youtube and Twitch as Half Tilt Gamer!
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JaxsonMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Time/Job When I begin to think of the game as another Job i have lost my immersion and tend to leave the game. I want my time to be impactful, but not to the point i have to play 8 hours a day just to feel relevant.
Style/Gameplay I enjoy all forms of gameplay from pve to pvp but i hate when I'm limited to how i have to play depending on what I'm doing. I should be able to be solo in pve and pvp.
For me being fun to play will always be more important than immersion. Immersion for me comes from there always being somethings to strive for and achieve. Achieving those levels or items should come with a sense of success and rewards that make my character stronger or more efficient. If I run out of things to grind for or cool items to collect I will very quickly lose interest.
Well as many others here i value immersion quite a lot.
I think some of the most important parts to creating an immersive and believable world is to be able to create an A.I. for the npc's/monsters so that they dont just idle around doing nothing. Positioning the creatures in relations to eachother as well is important, predators dont just hang around in a single crevice with no animals to prey on in sight. Even in fantasy the biological needs of the creatures in question must make sense, otherwise it breaks the immersion.
On top of that i think that a lot of rpg's in general do this weird thing were you during your lvling period need to more or less make five or six races of beasts go extinct from your grinding, while i do understand the need for a certain amount of grind to have player retention as well as gather resources i think its very important to balance this out properly because processing 1500 wolfs and 100 veins of iron ore in a day kinda feels like an unnatural thing to do, materialwise you dont need 15 bearhides to make a shirt.
The third point i have is the music. It's probably the most important part, to make it so that it is pleasing on the ear but not distracting. It's a hard balance to strike, but having a great soundtrack realy elevates the feeling in an area, for example i think many who played WoW during WotLK start gushing everytime they hear the grizzly hills soundtrack. The quality of wow nowadays is another can of worms i dont want to open but sound design in grizzly was one of the most magical thing ive ever experienced in a game. Also important to let the player choose to play without music, so having different sliders for music and for ambience is very important.
Back to the nature part, to make the different nodes and biomes have smooth transitions, otherwise there is a risk of it being incredibly jarring. I think this will make exploring feel a lot more natural as well when you transition through the world. This is something you have spoken on at length but i feel like there should be a tangiable distance around the world.
Lastly i want to just plead to you about skins a bit, while i think that the cashshop skins are a realy good way to provide necessary income to the game, please for the love of god dont go full GW2 and put in armors with sparkling effects to the point where it makes it hard for other players to see what's going on. Huge wings, Sparkly mountskins that look like 8-bit versions of themselves etc. while i can understand that some find that cool it is increadibly immersionbreaking and frankly quite bothersome in raid/pvp enviroments.
Group-finders or any type of queues, would probably be the most immersion-breaking thing. Probably followed by unrealistic or offensive player names.
If I may, I’d like to point out the times where i think It’s OK to sacrifice immersion, and think that’s when it’s in favor of player recognition. For example, I think it’s 100% worth breaking immersion/foregoing realism if it’s to do something like broadcasting PvP kill-spam in the top corner of the screen (e.g., X player was killed by Y player) or impressive achievements right smack across the middle the screen (e.g., X player was the first on the server to complete ______), both of which I strongly support having implemented.
Being noticed for doing stuff is a big reason to strive to do stuff (or not to do stuff, such as if you don’t want to be labeled a lowbie ganker).
I find it odd that normally the most amount of exp gained is through quest. Now why is it that you get so much exp from turning in a quest? like what even is it, isnt it just a note of some sort telling you what to do? I feel exp should be gained from killing worthy adversaries aka monster or the like. Dungeons and raids giving the most amount of exp and quest be good for acquiring money and other supplies and items. Also a wide variety of quest, not the same 5 quest over and over. i feel anime that are video game like have a good take on this and could be nicely implemented into any mmo. Overlord, is it wrong to pick up girls in a dungeon, log horizon, sword art online I feel a lot of those anime could give ideas on how quest could be done. Do the quest get money and items and you get exp from killing monsters and clearing dungeons
I am so-so on immersion. Ultimately, fast travel is the thing that ruins any immersion I care about as it greatly reduces the scope and scale of the world. I also hate any mechanic that encourages you to die... death gating, etc.
Immersive Content: Rewards and consequences to quests, good music, good graphics with good aesthetic, variety of enemies/monsters, content or events to break up monotonous tasks, events and npc's that create a feeling of belonging to a town/area. I personally like GW2 vistas that were randomly encountered while exploring. I have also enjoyed bad games because of good music and can say some good games suffered due to bad music.
Immersion Breaking: Long, non-meaningful fetch quests, poor combat, lack of monster variety, or arbitrary road blocks to continuing task/content (e.g. Not being able to access an area, but also not being given a hint of what needs to be completed).
>What were some moments in an MMO that broke your immersion? How much did those moments affect your perception of the game? How important is immersion to you, generally?
Most of my immersion-breaking moments have to do with what I expect my character to be doing, but it doesn't align with what's actually happening. Personally, I experience this most often when I expect to gain power after a level or gear upgrade, but everything around me scales up with me. I end up at max level taking the same time to kill a lizard that I did 15 levels ago.
Things like this that break the cyle of "effort -> reward" not only pull you out of roleplay immersion but also the gameplay immersion. It gets me thinking about "Why am I working to level up when it doesn't change how I interact with the monsters?" instead of thinking about how cool/good/powerful I feel after leveling up. These moments of immersion breaking ultimately make me feel like I'm wasting my time. not good.
The most immersion breaking element in MMOs comes when NPCs/monsters don't behave in believable ways. As a simple example, I thought it was the coolest thing ever when I began playing WoW in 2005, and humanoid monsters would run away from you as their health went below a certain threshhold. I'm sure it's quite difficult to code, but NPCs/monsters being aware of their surroundings and reacting appropriately is the biggest factor for immersion.
On the other hand, a game being fun is much more important than immersion, in my opinion. The easiest example I can come up with on this front is inventory and auctioning management. In my opinion, the economic side of interface and mechanics is what Guild Wars 2 did perfectly. You can still have limited inventory space and bag slots, but you have a separate storage for crafting materials (upgradeable, too). In addition, you can auction things from anywhere, but must go to a specific place to pick things up. Obviously these systems are not realistic, but it made the game so much more fluid and fun.
I think one of the worst things is crafted items being better then loot items. It’s one thing I hate in WoW. To many professions and to confusing.
Second to this is Tab targeting not being able to hit enemies slightly to the side of me. The big red “ Enemy isn’t in front of you” is annoying and often ads downtime to combat to reposition.
The number one thing that kills my immersion in any MMO, is within the story my character is "the chosen one" that will liberate the world from evil. Please, don't have a story like that, there's no way I'd believe it or get as invested when everyone else playing is the "chosen one" as well.
First off, IMO "immersion" is actually very simple and easy to achieve if a game is designed properly! But I'm about to make it all more specific and difficult than it needs to be! You've been warned! lol
So Now, I'd have to ask AoC developers the most important question of all...How much "immersion" are you actually offering? Will this be an "RPG"(with some, few, or no MMO aspects) aka a Mostly PvE story/exploration/world driven game capable of deep immersion...if it's designed properly. Or will this be an "MMO"(with some, few or no RPG aspects) aka a mostly PvP driven game, that's Never capable of the actual immersion that RPGs can offer(Because of MMO's usual PvP core!)! If it's the latter, then you might as well stop reading here, and create whatever PvP game you want! Immersion will likely be nonexistent!!
I mean honestly, Nothing Ruins Immersion quite like getting stun locked to death in the middle of nowhere, and then possibly camped for hours, all because some lonely player just wants to be a 8==D! Not that PvP is bad...WHEN YOU WANT IT, but when you're trying to be "immersed" in a story, quest, world...yet Pvpers(Especially trolls) won't leave you alone, there's just nothing worse...in all of gaming(and not just in terms of immersion!!)!!
Now, if you're still looking for more details(Some probably annoying ) then by all means read on!
Yes MMO "technically" just means a massive amount of online players, though most typical MMO's are all about that PvP. Especially once any form of PvP is purposely added to that game! But as for the Role Players specifically(in that massive group of online players), they actually thrive on getting along with others, to create an even better experience overall. So not much in the way of PvP participation coming from them, except Maybe some organized and/or group PvP, like arenas and/or sieges/raids(again When They Want To), but even that would be few and far between for most "Role Players"!! The more immersed in the story they are the better the experience is for them overall! Not like PvPers who brag about how many noobs they ganked today(and likely couldn't even tell you half of the games actual story/lore)!
Now moving on to what most people actually want to hear!
I'm assuming everything in game is running smoothly, and that the gaming common sense of "Don't just have 2 or 3 types of quests, and Don't make it where there's ever only one way to do things" is in play already! So I won't be addressing those obvious overall possible issues!
So the obvious immersion breakers "IMO" are:
#1) Other Players! Specifically, but not limited to, PvP!
Sorry, I'll try not to beat this dead horse too much more, but immersion is ALL about the story, your role in it/gameplay, and the world it all takes place in! Not PvP! Even if you LOVE PvP(Which is fine!) you will never truly immerse yourself, want to or be able to relate to it, and/or replace your current reality with, burning people alive, bashing them with your shield, cutting their throats, and/or dying yourself...over and over and over again...If You Do...Plleeease call your local law enforcement and turn yourself in immediately!
Obviously PvP is not the only way other players can truly make an entire game unbearable though(much less break your immersion)! Some will screw with you ANY way they can...Just Because They Can!! From extremely overpricing for their mats, Evidently in this game, Overpricing taxes(you do realize "Mayors" are Definitely going to be a MAJOR PROBLEM in AoC right!!), camping your hunting grounds and material farming areas, stealing your kills/trophies, and so on! "Other players" are by far the number one reason immersion is most often broken(in all multiplayer games)!
#2) ANYTHING that's "out of place', and/or completely unreasonable!
Including extremely hard or overly easy quests(that shouldn't be), abilities that don't match your class(aka tanks shouldn't be able to stealth, rogues shouldn't be able to tank), quests that don't coincide with the overall story(Why would send a tavern keeper out to kill a rabid beast, or a blacksmith to collect berries for a cooking recipe)!
I'd tell the developers, "Don't think like a player playing a game, think like an explorer, blacksmith, alchemist, tavern keeper and so on, just living their life"! That's True Immersion!
Which I would argue has NEVER been properly achieved in any videogame before! Even D&D(Best RPG Ever) has it's downfalls. Mainly because you're all likely sitting around a DM/table "just chatting" and "in street clothes"...Now if D&D ever gets a proper VR experience...WATCH OUT gaming world!!
#3) Repetitiveness??
Personally I'm not sure why so many of the members here keep saying "I don't like repetitive quests(and/or other repetitive things)". I don't think it's the fact that it's repetitive, as much as it's likely something that's boring or bad! After all, humanity is Very Repetitive(habitual) by nature! But I can completely agree that when whatever daily/weekly/monthly things we might Need to do are boring or bad, then that is truly a buzzkill! Hard to stay immersed when you're not having fun(or at least interested in whatever you're doing...Like Forced PvP )!
IMO, Immersion will always create itself if the game is Mainly/Mostly focused on immersion(story!), instead of any other aspect of possible gameplay(PvP, Constant Grinding, Randomness, problem solving and so on)! A little of everything is fine, but the main focus of a game is what the game will be remembered or forgotten for!!
For details sake: Yes a fantasy world can(and should) have many unexpected things happen, which should(but won't always) be "fun"! Either way everything NEEDS to be cohesive and within reason(whatever "your world's reason is"...that you establish in the very beginning...aka if humans walk on all fours in your game then so be it!).
In other words don't code it to where you force a blacksmith to make 100 chest plates, and waste a million mats, just to get ONE useful piece(like Most Lazily game companies do to try to drag out a game mechanic/resource waster/time killer)!! IF they have the skill level/experience/materials high enough, then give them the proper worthy results EVERY time(at least according to their skill level, maybe with 1 out of 15 to 20 ending up flawed or whatever...Just NOT the other way around!)! So yes, at the beginning, they'll always only be able to make low quality stuff, but by the end game they'll be masters of their trade(and hardly ever fail a craft)!!
Edit: I forgot to add in though, that the "repetitiveness" even tediousness of going out every day and farming the different types of metal, animal hides, and so on, that you'll Need to make Many of the same old items(but it's what people need/use, so you have too to stay in business) might not necessarily be "Fun", but it would definitely be necessary for a blacksmith, leatherworker, and so on, in EVERY world(that goes for Every craft)! Unless of course they bring you the mats, and wait a day/couple days for that Amazing Legendary weapon to be made! FTR: Yes, the time it takes for making something like armor/weapon shouldn't just be a click of a button either!! It should at least be a day per armor/weapon 2 or 3 days for better/best quality gear! Or at least have a cooldown timer! Maybe even a quick(15-20sec) cut scene for when you click that button would be nice/Immersive...then the CD kicks in, and you can go on about your other business while the steel heats/cools or whatever, like multitasking in real life! #Realism
Things shouldn't always be as "simple" as, a ganking monster Needs to be "just this level", or traveling/weight limits/crafting should always work "just like this"! Maybe a monster attacks that is too powerful so you Have to run not fight. Maybe make fast travel send you too the wrong place every so often(so they have to do it again, or choose to stay there). Certain things Can't fit in a magic bag(no matter how magic it is, Don't Be Lazy!!)! Maybe make crafting an exploration at times too, aka design it where you can mix and match mats to see what the result is(Whenever they WANT to experiment!). Add in some mystery Legendary results too!
Don't forget, that in life, sometimes unkept/old stuff permanently breaks(not repairable), and/or ya can't just jump over tables/furniture rushing to the bar/vendor without Likely breaking something. Like dishes in a bar, that you now have to pay for/replace or you're fined or get jail time. Maybe you sprain your ankle, aka movement penalty for 3 hours real time, or worse you break your leg jumping off a high cliff. So now you have a cast on and a movement speed reduction for a week.
Some Rare times your weak old horse gets bit by a snake(time to put her down!)...Lots of snakes around? Then buy/tame something with armored skin next time . Some Rare times a huge monster wanders into your kitchen and eats your dog(RIP Scruffy)! Those random, and some Very Rare, things can and should be few and far between(Maybe once every 3 or 4+ months real time, when it's reasonable for the story!)! Either way they definitely Need to happen to keep the story/world lively, and not boring!! Again this is all purely RPG focused content(I'm sure some, maybe even most, other genres of players might not like this much realism and/or randomness)!!
P.s. Custom character creation, name, look, and all personal details, are a MUST if you want someone to be fully immersed in their character!! Having and naming pets(even their mounts, maybe even crafted gear...that others could see a nameplate of!) would be a really nice touch too!!
Make players feel rewarded for logging in everyday to feed their pet/mount(so it doesn't die of starvation), or have to do their skills so they don't get rusty(Maybe even possibly losing effectiveness of crafted items...after going a long time not crafting, E.g. healing pots only heal for 75% of their regular amount "because your rusty"), maybe logging in daily gives them a significantly higher chance of something Rare, random and/or cool happening for/to them!!
You're Definitely going to have the money, So Make Something Special For ALL!!!
Sorry again for the long post all! I could get into so much more detail, but I already don't know when to shut up, so I'll it it here! Kudos if you stuck around(and actually read it all!)!
There are a couple things that persistantly destroy the immersive nature of an MMO.
#1 having to look at a hot bar. When you must have multiple active hotbars that require you to take your eyes off the battle in order to ensure cool downs are completed, spells are ready, and buffs are active, that really pulls the player out. I wish I knew of a good way to fix this, but I can't think of one off hand.
I know your question wasn't what could be done, but I would like to take this in that direction. I may have missed it, but does the game plan on utilizing VR at all? That would be amazing if implemented.
A few things that can bother me and break my immersion:
gold sellers advertising in game
mini map ( spend all my time looking at it )
way points ( enable me to ignore the lore )
a universe that doesn't feel alive ( npc not moving, no season change, day/night cycles (SW:TOR WTF) )
obvious respawns
instancing
poorly scripted dialogue / quests
game feels like a 2nd job ( too many daily tasks, and not being able to skip a day or two and work it off harder later )
not being able to do the content you want to do because of being swamped by dailies ( that is kind of a nice problem to have though, it means you have lots of content )
Immersion is really game mechanics that break your enjoyment.
1. Grind
2. Lack of diversity
3. Game mechanics are too consistent
Guild Wars and ESO have some of the best dynamic game play. Guild Wars have areas that change based on event system. ESO has areas that change after you complete a series of quests. A combination of both are very welcome for long term interest. One of the down falls of Guildwars for me was the lack of character development.
Bad enemy npc design is the #1 factor in breaking immersion. It really breaks the experience when the same monster models are used over and over or have just slightly modified colors. Blizzard does this with their boss NPCs and it drives me nuts. Chances are that if theres a boss model, it will be reused as a common monster model in a later zone.
Sloppy enemy AI or pathing. When enemy NPCs are easily bugged or manipulated by jumping over some random object, it completely takes me out of the game.
Also, clunky characters animations including jumping. I like character jumps to look smooth and I like mounts to have appearing and disappearing animations. Visible equipped weapons are a must!
biggest immersion breakers:
- cosmetics/transmog - basicly all things that hide player's real equip
- unlocked camera zoom
- cheaters/exploiters/bots
- smoothless animations + unrealistic character movement speed/range (walk 10meters with 3 steps)
- simplified character creation
- hollow world
i want to tel what imerses my in the game not get my out i see more then enuf of that.
i like it when you have like your own caracter cwest to guide you in the world like find out what typ of animals live in this area. and when you get thirsty go look for a clean water sours and it tels you what to look for, stuf like that.
and when your caracter running through the world and looks at somting you did not see and tels you about it in like a wisper like (mmmm that rock formation looks of) and that makes you go look. and chek it out and if it dos not pay of it is ok. but if it somtimes wil pay of whit like a smal cave whit a quests ore a item ore som lore contend it is great. like that is how you make your owne quests richt. make it speacial and keep it like that. dont make it so that your carictar tels you somting like every 5 min make it like 1 ore 2 taims a day maby,
Comments
I think while having information is important. The magic of discovery and learning is what really gets your gears grinding and gets you lost in a game.
Using PoE as an example. I've gotten so lost in game just trying to get myself a build that i call my own. Not using any outside tools or websites. Just straight up using in game tools and getting absolutely lost in it.
Having to talk to someone and ask them hey man where did you get that cool sword? Or getting a group just naturally because you're doing the same quests with someone in the area.
I think the game has to be complete on its own, in its own world, without the need for outside interference or tools.
I know it can also just be a choice of like not looking up a boss fight or not looking up a quest. But i feel if the option is there, the path of least resistance will always be taken.
NPCs that don't react to what is happening around them. If a monster is attacking the town they shouldn't act like nothing out of the ordinary is happening...they should be cowering, running away, or fighting. Make them somewhat aware when extraordinary situations present themselves.
Formerly T-Elf
Stuff that *doesn't* make the world distinctive:
1.) Repetitive NPC dialogue: You can spend time creating a beautifully realized world, but if I run across the 15th NPC in town remarking on how hot it is today in exactly the same tone, that really breaks immersion for me.
2.) Pointless or thinly veiled tasks: I realize it isn't an MMO, but I have to point to the Witcher 3 here. Part of the reason that world is so rich and memorable to me is that the "side" quests are every bit as impactful most of the time as the main scenario quests. Investing time and effort into quest creation builds a rich and immersive world, whether you're talking single-player RPG or MMO.
3.) Procedurally-generated environments: If I ride over the hill on my (utterly generic) horse and see pretty but bland vista number 273 that looks remarkably similar to pretty but bland vistas number 1-272, I'm not going to be very immersed or invested in the world. I'm going to be bored and uninspired.
4.) Spelling and/or grammar errors in quest text: This is huge for me. I can sink into well-written quest text just like I can into a great book. And just like with a great book, if the editor didn't do such a hot job, it can completely ruin the experience and pull me out of the story. Excellent writing and editing go a very long way.
Immersion is one of those really subjective topics. It's vital to some, totally irrelevant to others, and even where it's important, there's little consensus on what immersion actually means. It's one of those artistic elements of crafting a great story that you just know when you run across it.
Another is a fleeing mob that runs and then suddenly is back at full HP and coming back at you. If they flee and you don't continute to kill them then they should be on a "cooldown" before they engage you again to simulate healing period, plenty of times I've chased down a fleeing mob to have it suddenly regen hp and re-engage.
Mob-tagging, or lack therefore, due to game mechanics.
I, like what I assume are many on these forums, played the New World preview a few weeks ago. While there is nothing like the experience of thousands of players playing a game on day one with everyone running around trying to figure out what we are doing... The worst part of the whole preview for me was not only 80% of all quest were to "kill X mobs, loot X items", but when you have dozens of other players vying for the same thing and you cant get any credit for your quest, it makes those boring quest last about 10x longer than they should.
Usually with MMOs as players progress to higher levels and different zones this becomes slightly less of a problem (but still a problem nonetheless). But with AoC focusing on players staying in the same sphere of influence leveling up your zones instead of traveling to new ones, I fear there will be a constant struggle against your own zone's players for who will the tag on kills.
This is also not to mention that usually support professions get royally screwed when it comes to getting any credit for tags....
Non-responsive combat: I dislike when the combat in a game feels unresponsive and not fluid. An example of a game that (in my opinion) has very good and responsive combat is Aion.
Repetitive quests or gathering too much of the same items: nothing breaks immersion more than having to complete too many of the same quests or having to gather 50 of the same rare stones for a blacksmith. Guild Wars 2 has really done this right in my opinion. Quests are nothing but story there, and the 'hearts' are usually quite different. Another big thing I like about GW2 is the achievement system when it comes to acquiring legendary items. This is basically a very long and detailed story (chopped in many small pieces) where you acquire necessary components, through very different content. Sometimes gathering, killing mobs, jumping puzzles, crafting and more are needed instead of your often gather 50 of this, then 30 of that.
Quest overload: having too many quests at once, but also being restricted in the amount of quests you can take. This is a hard balance it find. I don't like to skip quests, so restricting the amount of quests you can have at once won't solve this problem. I want to accept all of them, though I don't wanna be overloaded with quests so I don't know where to start. Aion and WoW (Classic) have done this well I think.
A huge thing that helps immersion is the variety of flora and fauna, and these being dynamic. So many different animals, different environments and having these animals roam around. Haven't really seen it done yet (GW2 a tiny bit), but to have predators roaming around stalking and killing prey. From what I've seen in the dev updates on Twitch/YouTube, you are doing a pretty good job at creating a dynamic environment with having season and knowing you .
Smaller things I think are important: voice acting, representative armor for your level of power, not having overly expensive items/services.
Already mentioned this but those quest icons have always looked out of place to me prefer some other method.
Too much clutter A big killer from a visual stand point is having too much clutter on the screen or in the environment. By clutter I mean large or out-of-place UI frames, large in game visual indicators that seem out of place (quest icons above an NPC for example), and overuse of the same monster/building skins and forms.
A generic story/role I can't get into the story if the game starts with me at level 1 and I get sent on a quest to kill some monster that has been holding the town hostage for X amount of time that only I can kill and be the hero yet the Lv 50 Guards can't do anything about it. It's just not a believable character development.
Choices need to matter Making decisions in quests and other areas that have tangible differences and effects on the world and your game make it so much more immersive. It's very disengaging to embark on an epic quest to change the world and upon completion nothing is actually different. (Instanced content)
Sense of Scale When you're running around the world and going into different regions or cities, the sense of scale can be a huge factor to feeling immersed. Imagine being a dwarf and running into an orc city, how big everything should feel or being an orc going into a dwarf city how small everything should feel.
NPC lives When you walk through a bustling Metropolis, full of NPCs and players alike, its important for those NPCs to be doing something relevant to their lives. Have meaningful dialogue with other NPCs about events going on in the area (FF7 Remake I feel did this well). It's awesome when NPCs talk to you or amongst themselves around you, but when they just repeat the same thing over and over again it gets disengaging really fast (I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee).
Style/Gameplay I enjoy all forms of gameplay from pve to pvp but i hate when I'm limited to how i have to play depending on what I'm doing. I should be able to be solo in pve and pvp.
I think some of the most important parts to creating an immersive and believable world is to be able to create an A.I. for the npc's/monsters so that they dont just idle around doing nothing. Positioning the creatures in relations to eachother as well is important, predators dont just hang around in a single crevice with no animals to prey on in sight. Even in fantasy the biological needs of the creatures in question must make sense, otherwise it breaks the immersion.
On top of that i think that a lot of rpg's in general do this weird thing were you during your lvling period need to more or less make five or six races of beasts go extinct from your grinding, while i do understand the need for a certain amount of grind to have player retention as well as gather resources i think its very important to balance this out properly because processing 1500 wolfs and 100 veins of iron ore in a day kinda feels like an unnatural thing to do, materialwise you dont need 15 bearhides to make a shirt.
The third point i have is the music. It's probably the most important part, to make it so that it is pleasing on the ear but not distracting. It's a hard balance to strike, but having a great soundtrack realy elevates the feeling in an area, for example i think many who played WoW during WotLK start gushing everytime they hear the grizzly hills soundtrack. The quality of wow nowadays is another can of worms i dont want to open but sound design in grizzly was one of the most magical thing ive ever experienced in a game. Also important to let the player choose to play without music, so having different sliders for music and for ambience is very important.
Back to the nature part, to make the different nodes and biomes have smooth transitions, otherwise there is a risk of it being incredibly jarring. I think this will make exploring feel a lot more natural as well when you transition through the world. This is something you have spoken on at length but i feel like there should be a tangiable distance around the world.
Lastly i want to just plead to you about skins a bit, while i think that the cashshop skins are a realy good way to provide necessary income to the game, please for the love of god dont go full GW2 and put in armors with sparkling effects to the point where it makes it hard for other players to see what's going on. Huge wings, Sparkly mountskins that look like 8-bit versions of themselves etc. while i can understand that some find that cool it is increadibly immersionbreaking and frankly quite bothersome in raid/pvp enviroments.
If I may, I’d like to point out the times where i think It’s OK to sacrifice immersion, and think that’s when it’s in favor of player recognition. For example, I think it’s 100% worth breaking immersion/foregoing realism if it’s to do something like broadcasting PvP kill-spam in the top corner of the screen (e.g., X player was killed by Y player) or impressive achievements right smack across the middle the screen (e.g., X player was the first on the server to complete ______), both of which I strongly support having implemented.
Being noticed for doing stuff is a big reason to strive to do stuff (or not to do stuff, such as if you don’t want to be labeled a lowbie ganker).
Immersion Breaking: Long, non-meaningful fetch quests, poor combat, lack of monster variety, or arbitrary road blocks to continuing task/content (e.g. Not being able to access an area, but also not being given a hint of what needs to be completed).
Most of my immersion-breaking moments have to do with what I expect my character to be doing, but it doesn't align with what's actually happening. Personally, I experience this most often when I expect to gain power after a level or gear upgrade, but everything around me scales up with me. I end up at max level taking the same time to kill a lizard that I did 15 levels ago.
Things like this that break the cyle of "effort -> reward" not only pull you out of roleplay immersion but also the gameplay immersion. It gets me thinking about "Why am I working to level up when it doesn't change how I interact with the monsters?" instead of thinking about how cool/good/powerful I feel after leveling up. These moments of immersion breaking ultimately make me feel like I'm wasting my time. not good.
On the other hand, a game being fun is much more important than immersion, in my opinion. The easiest example I can come up with on this front is inventory and auctioning management. In my opinion, the economic side of interface and mechanics is what Guild Wars 2 did perfectly. You can still have limited inventory space and bag slots, but you have a separate storage for crafting materials (upgradeable, too). In addition, you can auction things from anywhere, but must go to a specific place to pick things up. Obviously these systems are not realistic, but it made the game so much more fluid and fun.
Second to this is Tab targeting not being able to hit enemies slightly to the side of me. The big red “ Enemy isn’t in front of you” is annoying and often ads downtime to combat to reposition.
First off, IMO "immersion" is actually very simple and easy to achieve if a game is designed properly! But I'm about to make it all more specific and difficult than it needs to be! You've been warned! lol
So Now, I'd have to ask AoC developers the most important question of all...How much "immersion" are you actually offering? Will this be an "RPG"(with some, few, or no MMO aspects) aka a Mostly PvE story/exploration/world driven game capable of deep immersion...if it's designed properly. Or will this be an "MMO"(with some, few or no RPG aspects) aka a mostly PvP driven game, that's Never capable of the actual immersion that RPGs can offer(Because of MMO's usual PvP core!)! If it's the latter, then you might as well stop reading here, and create whatever PvP game you want! Immersion will likely be nonexistent!!
I mean honestly, Nothing Ruins Immersion quite like getting stun locked to death in the middle of nowhere, and then possibly camped for hours, all because some lonely player just wants to be a 8==D! Not that PvP is bad...WHEN YOU WANT IT, but when you're trying to be "immersed" in a story, quest, world...yet Pvpers(Especially trolls) won't leave you alone, there's just nothing worse...in all of gaming(and not just in terms of immersion!!)!!
Now, if you're still looking for more details(Some probably annoying
Yes MMO "technically" just means a massive amount of online players, though most typical MMO's are all about that PvP. Especially once any form of PvP is purposely added to that game! But as for the Role Players specifically(in that massive group of online players), they actually thrive on getting along with others, to create an even better experience overall. So not much in the way of PvP participation coming from them, except Maybe some organized and/or group PvP, like arenas and/or sieges/raids(again When They Want To), but even that would be few and far between for most "Role Players"!! The more immersed in the story they are the better the experience is for them overall! Not like PvPers who brag about how many noobs they ganked today(and likely couldn't even tell you half of the games actual story/lore)!
Now moving on to what most people actually want to hear!
I'm assuming everything in game is running smoothly, and that the gaming common sense of "Don't just have 2 or 3 types of quests, and Don't make it where there's ever only one way to do things" is in play already! So I won't be addressing those obvious overall possible issues!
So the obvious immersion breakers "IMO" are:
#1) Other Players! Specifically, but not limited to, PvP!
Sorry, I'll try not to beat this dead horse too much more, but immersion is ALL about the story, your role in it/gameplay, and the world it all takes place in! Not PvP! Even if you LOVE PvP(Which is fine!) you will never truly immerse yourself, want to or be able to relate to it, and/or replace your current reality with, burning people alive, bashing them with your shield, cutting their throats, and/or dying yourself...over and over and over again...If You Do...Plleeease call your local law enforcement and turn yourself in immediately!
Obviously PvP is not the only way other players can truly make an entire game unbearable though(much less break your immersion)! Some will screw with you ANY way they can...Just Because They Can!! From extremely overpricing for their mats, Evidently in this game, Overpricing taxes(you do realize "Mayors" are Definitely going to be a MAJOR PROBLEM in AoC right!!), camping your hunting grounds and material farming areas, stealing your kills/trophies, and so on! "Other players" are by far the number one reason immersion is most often broken(in all multiplayer games)!
#2) ANYTHING that's "out of place', and/or completely unreasonable!
Including extremely hard or overly easy quests(that shouldn't be), abilities that don't match your class(aka tanks shouldn't be able to stealth, rogues shouldn't be able to tank), quests that don't coincide with the overall story(Why would send a tavern keeper out to kill a rabid beast, or a blacksmith to collect berries for a cooking recipe)!
I'd tell the developers, "Don't think like a player playing a game, think like an explorer, blacksmith, alchemist, tavern keeper and so on, just living their life"! That's True Immersion!
Which I would argue has NEVER been properly achieved in any videogame before! Even D&D(Best RPG Ever) has it's downfalls. Mainly because you're all likely sitting around a DM/table "just chatting" and "in street clothes"...Now if D&D ever gets a proper VR experience...WATCH OUT gaming world!!
#3) Repetitiveness??
Personally I'm not sure why so many of the members here keep saying "I don't like repetitive quests(and/or other repetitive things)". I don't think it's the fact that it's repetitive, as much as it's likely something that's boring or bad! After all, humanity is Very Repetitive(habitual) by nature! But I can completely agree that when whatever daily/weekly/monthly things we might Need to do are boring or bad, then that is truly a buzzkill! Hard to stay immersed when you're not having fun(or at least interested in whatever you're doing...Like Forced PvP
IMO, Immersion will always create itself if the game is Mainly/Mostly focused on immersion(story!), instead of any other aspect of possible gameplay(PvP, Constant Grinding, Randomness, problem solving and so on)! A little of everything is fine, but the main focus of a game is what the game will be remembered or forgotten for!!
For details sake: Yes a fantasy world can(and should) have many unexpected things happen, which should(but won't always) be "fun"! Either way everything NEEDS to be cohesive and within reason(whatever "your world's reason is"...that you establish in the very beginning...aka if humans walk on all fours in your game then so be it!).
In other words don't code it to where you force a blacksmith to make 100 chest plates, and waste a million mats, just to get ONE useful piece(like Most Lazily game companies do to try to drag out a game mechanic/resource waster/time killer)!! IF they have the skill level/experience/materials high enough, then give them the proper worthy results EVERY time(at least according to their skill level, maybe with 1 out of 15 to 20 ending up flawed or whatever...Just NOT the other way around!)! So yes, at the beginning, they'll always only be able to make low quality stuff, but by the end game they'll be masters of their trade(and hardly ever fail a craft)!!
Edit: I forgot to add in though, that the "repetitiveness" even tediousness of going out every day and farming the different types of metal, animal hides, and so on, that you'll Need to make Many of the same old items(but it's what people need/use, so you have too to stay in business) might not necessarily be "Fun", but it would definitely be necessary for a blacksmith, leatherworker, and so on, in EVERY world(that goes for Every craft)! Unless of course they bring you the mats, and wait a day/couple days for that Amazing Legendary weapon to be made! FTR: Yes, the time it takes for making something like armor/weapon shouldn't just be a click of a button either!! It should at least be a day per armor/weapon 2 or 3 days for better/best quality gear! Or at least have a cooldown timer! Maybe even a quick(15-20sec) cut scene for when you click that button would be nice/Immersive...then the CD kicks in, and you can go on about your other business while the steel heats/cools or whatever, like multitasking in real life! #Realism
Things shouldn't always be as "simple" as, a ganking monster Needs to be "just this level", or traveling/weight limits/crafting should always work "just like this"! Maybe a monster attacks that is too powerful so you Have to run not fight. Maybe make fast travel send you too the wrong place every so often(so they have to do it again, or choose to stay there). Certain things Can't fit in a magic bag(no matter how magic it is, Don't Be Lazy!!)! Maybe make crafting an exploration at times too, aka design it where you can mix and match mats to see what the result is(Whenever they WANT to experiment!). Add in some mystery Legendary results too!
Don't forget, that in life, sometimes unkept/old stuff permanently breaks(not repairable), and/or ya can't just jump over tables/furniture rushing to the bar/vendor without Likely breaking something. Like dishes in a bar, that you now have to pay for/replace or you're fined or get jail time. Maybe you sprain your ankle, aka movement penalty for 3 hours real time, or worse you break your leg jumping off a high cliff. So now you have a cast on and a movement speed reduction for a week.
Some Rare times your weak old horse gets bit by a snake(time to put her down!)...Lots of snakes around? Then buy/tame something with armored skin next time
P.s. Custom character creation, name, look, and all personal details, are a MUST if you want someone to be fully immersed in their character!! Having and naming pets(even their mounts, maybe even crafted gear...that others could see a nameplate of!) would be a really nice touch too!!
Make players feel rewarded for logging in everyday to feed their pet/mount(so it doesn't die of starvation), or have to do their skills so they don't get rusty(Maybe even possibly losing effectiveness of crafted items...after going a long time not crafting, E.g. healing pots only heal for 75% of their regular amount "because your rusty"), maybe logging in daily gives them a significantly higher chance of something Rare, random and/or cool happening for/to them!!
You're Definitely going to have the money, So Make Something Special For ALL!!!
Sorry again for the long post all! I could get into so much more detail, but I already don't know when to shut up, so I'll it it here! Kudos if you stuck around(and actually read it all!)!
#1 having to look at a hot bar. When you must have multiple active hotbars that require you to take your eyes off the battle in order to ensure cool downs are completed, spells are ready, and buffs are active, that really pulls the player out. I wish I knew of a good way to fix this, but I can't think of one off hand.
I know your question wasn't what could be done, but I would like to take this in that direction. I may have missed it, but does the game plan on utilizing VR at all? That would be amazing if implemented.
Thanks,
The Bird Man.
A few things that can bother me and break my immersion:
1. Grind
2. Lack of diversity
3. Game mechanics are too consistent
Guild Wars and ESO have some of the best dynamic game play. Guild Wars have areas that change based on event system. ESO has areas that change after you complete a series of quests. A combination of both are very welcome for long term interest. One of the down falls of Guildwars for me was the lack of character development.
Sloppy enemy AI or pathing. When enemy NPCs are easily bugged or manipulated by jumping over some random object, it completely takes me out of the game.
Also, clunky characters animations including jumping. I like character jumps to look smooth and I like mounts to have appearing and disappearing animations. Visible equipped weapons are a must!
- cosmetics/transmog - basicly all things that hide player's real equip
- unlocked camera zoom
- cheaters/exploiters/bots
- smoothless animations + unrealistic character movement speed/range (walk 10meters with 3 steps)
- simplified character creation
- hollow world
i like it when you have like your own caracter cwest to guide you in the world like find out what typ of animals live in this area. and when you get thirsty go look for a clean water sours and it tels you what to look for, stuf like that.
and when your caracter running through the world and looks at somting you did not see and tels you about it in like a wisper like (mmmm that rock formation looks of) and that makes you go look. and chek it out and if it dos not pay of it is ok. but if it somtimes wil pay of whit like a smal cave whit a quests ore a item ore som lore contend it is great. like that is how you make your owne quests richt. make it speacial and keep it like that. dont make it so that your carictar tels you somting like every 5 min make it like 1 ore 2 taims a day maby,