Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
If crafters have to compete with old equipment it reduces the overall price of gear and makes it more accessible. It also is more of an investment for players than a sunk cost.
In a game that has such a focus on commerce like AoC it would be a bold move to make gear tradable. It would be different and in my opinion potentially quite interesting if even the most rarest items could be traded by players.
When it comes to level requirements for items there is hardly an argument against them imo. Other devs have struggled to balance a game over the years WITH soulbind and level requirements. Getting rid of both of them makes balancing hardly possible if gear actually improves your character (which is not a necessity). If the level 1 twink can kill lvl 30 mobs because of gear then that's just outside of intended gameplay isn't it ?
That is not to say that twink items like the heirloom system from WoW should be banned. Giving players an incentive to twink is one way to give them an incentive to go out in the world. It will help newer players to find veteran mentors.
The focus with things like this should be on convenience. It should not necessarily make the twinks stronger but make it easier for them to get through the content that the player already has experienced.
as long as you can play the game normally without the need for twinking.
but it's a nice thing to hunt for that EPIC gear for an alt or a friend or what ever
A high grade weapon should cause the low lv character to miss their target and massively burn their MP when using abilities.
For example, a ring for magicians that in addition to giving some statistics for this class, has the characteristic of jumping 5 levels, and when you have equipped that ring that is rare to get, you can also equip yourself with a tunic and staff that are up to 5 levels above your character.
And I'd like having the option to have a Main Character in which I could farm, and spent tons of hours but If at some point I decide having a secondary character or want to try some other main arquetype build being able to equip it with the optimus equipment since the start.
But that on the case there's some optimus leveling set or if there's a gear per level limitation that even if permits me have a strong leveling character, it's not OP compared to other similar levels.
It's only a new character being optimous since the start thanks to the hard work of my main.
YOUTUBE TWITCH TWITTER
In addition this creates more work for a player who wants to twink. You always want to be best geared, and if there is a way to enhance your advantage in any scenario, players will do it. And do not come with your *insert evil word*-excuse to "jUsT dOnt UsE ThEm". You do not want to feel left behind, this does not work psychologically.
I want the next gen MMO to be pure RPG for the players to immerse themselves in a high quality fantasy world. And not to see it **** by 98742 players with the same armor set during the long leveling process (in endgame its normal that many players walk around with the same gear, likely the BiS gear, no pun against that), which does crazy amounts of damage. And NO, cosmetics will do a flying *insert evil word* about it, because you will be able to identify the players with this armor sets by the damage they do to you, and the close to 0 damage you do to them. Then it is completely irrelevant how this stuff looks, you just "insert evil word" know what they would look like, if they would not spent money on microtransactions.
If you implement this dog*insert evil word* overgearing, which was designed to increase the numbers in an engagement matrix for shareholders, you have a big argument against buying your product.
PS: Yes I know, that I am emotional on this topic and I will not excuse it. I was thinking about to write this in a way, which would get me banned on the forums.
PSS: And if you open a discussion on an LFG-tool I will like 99% get banned with by first post on it. xD
Character Restrictions
Depending on how restricted an individual character is from engaging with the game's content, the game may be more or less alt promoting. For example, the number of professions you can master on an individual character, or the number of social organizations you may be able to be a part of. If any single character is restricted in the number of these, they will be more incentivized to create alts and eventually leveling up alts will get very tedious (because keep in mind, this is still an MMO and you will be sinking a ton of time in your main already). So the more you promote making alts, or the more you restrict individual characters, the more you should allow over-gearing. Personally to me, it seems like with the lack of fast travel, literally wanting to explore the other parts of the world may be reason enough to want an alt in AoC. Add on profession restrictions, the other archetypes, race specific augments and content etc you have decent reason to roll alts and therefore I think the game's design should be fairly over-gearing friendly.
Level Gating Content
Many games use character level to gate content and to give you something to work towards such as dungeons or new zones. Since in Verra you are supposed to find less dangerous monsters near the road and more dangerous monsters up the mountain in ~every zone, you are not really restricted in geography by your level. Similarly open world dungeons don't seem to have a mechanism for hard level gating and Steven has already mentioned he doesn't like mechanisms that prevent you from taking on monsters many levels above you (scaling). I tend to agree, your level is a rough indicator of your power level but you should personally determine what kind of challenge you can and can't take on. The only time over-gearing may become a problem is in for example battle grounds if you group players simply by their level, but there are ways to combat this like normalizing gear, grouping based on level AND gearscore etc.
Exception: Corruption
The only thing to be weary of with over-gearing in my opinion, is how corruption is calculated. If the corruption you gain is scaled by level difference only, then over-gearing will be very controversial and problematic for world PvP & griefing. However, if you make corruption scale as a function of gear score or some other similar metric, then over-gearing should be fine given the game's design as explained above. In general, I think PvP is where over-gearing becomes controversial but otherwise I see no problem with it.
Edit1: not saying you should be able to wear full end-game gear at lvl 1, obviously there should be level requirements to some capacity but I think they should be generous.
Edit2: @Cellzar makes some great arguments against over-gearing below. I just think the level gating and character restrictions (described above) should be tuned according to the decision.
However Ashes will theoretically feature a mostly unconstrained gaming world, so I could accept the notion of crafted items bearing no level requirements.
As there is item attrition in Ashes, a high end item is not just az advantage, but also a disadvantage for the wielder. The items will not just be crafter from materials normaly unobtainable by the boosted character, but also (hopefully) require those high end materials for repairing. If somebody is willing to provide the necessary reagents for constantly repairing the affected item, it is his/her decision to "burning" the (relatively) valuable reagents in favor of that low level character.
If people are referring to ''overgearing'' to a broken mechanic where it gives an unfair advantage to a low level player, then I would not want this to be part of the game at all. (If a sword could cast one fireball per day if used by a mage that knows the fireball spell but the mechanic doesn't prevent a low level warrior from doing so...). To fix those kind of issues you can add minimum strength (or any stats) requirement, for example, justified by the weight of the sword (knowing that a lower level wouldn't have that strength). So that warrior could still use the sword but not capable to cast the fireball (lacking the skill or Int stat requirement).
When it comes to Ashes, there is no way to separate out pvp by level in open world combat. It's just not designed to be, which is fine but you can still address the main pain points. The main pain point in my opinion is the corruption system. What I would recommend is creating a system that gives people scores based on level and gear power. Base the amount of corruption gained on this score.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
there was never any need to buy/craft in game gear until the new expansion b/c the heirloom armor had best stats up until endgame, then you would just deposit your twink gear in bank for a newly made character and do process all over again. Also that significantly messed up how people looked. we all had to transmog our twink gear to look different.
I want to not only feel the leveling process with my stats/points, but when it come to gear progression as well, i want 1-10 to look diff 11-20, 21-30 and so on, if i have twink gear i will feel bored and immersion breaking.
P.S. it feel good, like a spike of Dopamine collecting a new head piece or chest piece after 2 to 3 levels.
A wizard is never late, he arrives precisely when he means to.
How much power comes from gear at max level?
Should this ratio be maintained during leveling?
I personally like having the power come from me, not my gear.
I think a fair 50/50 balance between class and top tier gear is ok, and when in doubt err on the side of class. I'm talking about sheer numbers not player's skill.
I can't see any reason why this balance shouldn't be maintained at every level.
CLICCA QUI PER UNIRTI ALL'ORDINE
TL;DR: efficiency bell curve with diminishing returns more severe based on level difference.
Should a level 1 be able to equip/use a level 50 sword? Sure!!!
Should a level 1 be able to equip/use a level 50 sword as efficiently/effectively as a level 50? Hell no.
Hang with me here, I think you'll appreciate the specifics below...
Don't restrict the players from doing what they want, but there should be practical limitations within the bounds of common sense...
Logic:
The irony of bringing up logic in a video game discussion is not lost on me.
It takes practice to become good at anything.
A random person picking up a bardiche or halberd... or crossbow - or any item for that matter and using it would probably not be incredibly effective with it unless it were your profession.
Obviously, in the game there will be warriors; for example, that practice using a halberd. But we have to consider the other element to practice.
Similar to how a modern marksman might not be very effective with a musket from the 1600's or even a ballista, a brand new (level 1) swordsman would probably not be very good with an uber high-level weapon.
Taking this practice logic into account: note that there are 2 sides to this.
1) Weapon type vs profession AND
2) Practice (or level) vs the sophistication of the weapon (or weapon level)
So a mage would not be the ideal sword user. (reference to example 1 above) But they could pick up and swing a sword.
Likewise, an unpracticed (low level) miner would be able to utilize simple (low level) weapons like a shovel or a pickaxe but would be a lot less effective if they were using a bulldozer or blasthole drill for example.
Specific to the game: A low level swordsman would not be as effective with a high level sword. barring the reality that a sword is a sword... video game logic dictates that a simple sword (low level) and a sophisticated sword (high level) would be similar to the metaphor above with a neophyte miner trying to use a blasthole drill...
Solution:
There needs to be diminishing returns.
A level 10 can use a level 10 sword with 100% efficiency. Say the weapon has 10 attack. They can utilize all 10 attack with each swing.
A level 10 could opt to use a level 15 sword but they are only 90% as efficient. The sword is complex but not so overwhelming that they have a hard time understanding the function. That level 15 sword might have 50 attack but best they can hope to utilize is 45 attack with each swing. Still a marked improvement! To compensate for the marked improvement maybe they are also a little less likely to hit the target, or they swing it a little slower...
A level 10 could attempt to use a level 50 sword. But that is far more sophisticated than they are accustomed to... They would probably only be about 5% efficient with a level 50 sword. It might have 500 attack. but the best they can hope to utilize is about 25 attack with each swing... significantly less effective than the level 15 sword to which they would be a little more accustomed.
If down-tweaking the direct effectiveness is not to your liking than you can adjust other parameters... such as hit-chance and speed... or all of the above.
Obviously you guys can adjust the bell curve etc... You can math it out as much as you want. I just supply the idea. Not even a very original one... But it would be effective IMO.
If battlegrounds based on level brackets are the concern then obviously the bell-curve would be pretty strict, that said, I think a fairly strict bell-curve is a good idea in general. If players want the best possible equipment for their level then they have to work harder than others their level to get it... Raiding level appropriate dungeons or having some of the best crafters make them the best versions of level appropriate gear available.
If only max level characters can equip the most luxurious equipment - that limits the ways the game can be played, while not really bringing in much. Yes, maybe a level 10 won't be able to kill level 20 - but level 30 still will, and death is death. Yes, maybe a level 10 alt will not kill a level 30 monster all by themselves, but they can still level significantly faster with superior knowledge of the game and with help of powerful friends who may, say, tank or pre-damage the monster for them. What next, forbid friends to help each other?
There are also many ways to play a game, where one can achieve a lot without necessarily levelling their character to the max. If one is a great merchant and earned the money in game to buy the legendary sword, didn't they earn the right to equip it? If someone purely focuses on crafting and doesn't like hitting things as much - who is to say they shouldn't be able to enjoy the fruit of their labour?
This doesn't mean that level 1 character must necessarily be able to equip all items - some limits can still be implemented (although they don't have to be), just make sure it's not excessively strict.
PS: I am biased because my favourite MMORPG Ragnarok Online (Classic version) had a very wide spread of level limitations on items (with some very strong items being available from early levels, and definitely what you would call "twinking", while some being locked behind mid-levels or specific stat requirements, etc.), and it was fun mechanics that totally worked and nobody had any problems with it. Admittedly it didn't have open world PvP, so who even knows how it would work if it did
PPS: Also, a strict gear progression in a game that encourages you to make alts is what theme parks do to keep "low level areas" populated, so that new players don't come in and see empty world. I suspect that many people who are strongly for it come from theme parks and never played a well designed free economy sandbox.
PPPS: Also, what is the big difference between level 10 character getting a piece of strong equipment they haven't personally "earned", and a max level character getting the same? Maybe that max level character never does bossing and spends all their time sitting on the bench in the town square and chatting with passer bys, and suddenly they sport full boss gear because their friends gifted it to them. How does them being max level really makes a difference though?
lvl req's are fine imo
I really doubt "twinking" will be a thing with a open world environment.
A great sink for materials that felt fair.
Lineage 2 offered underwear as a means to improve your armor without impacting what your visual was.
BDO, I`m not so impressed with the need to have a gear for pvp and multiple separate gear for pve such as one for fishing, crafting, cooking, alchemy, gathering, farming etc..
1) Economy
After a few months everbody just uses highlevel gear. Not only twinks, but also new players, who got their euipment from buddys or guildmates, to help them level faster. This makes every piece of gear that isnt high/max level completly worthless. This will also effect the crafting system.
Just look at the crafting system from WoW. Blacksmithing is completly useless beacuse nobody is gonna buy your crafted items.
2) Open world PVP
New players without highlevel gear wont stand a chance against other players on the same level that are well geared. They cant compete for anything and just gonna bite the dust over and over again.
Doesnt sound like fun at all.
3) Hitting max level to fast
Geared out low level characters will hit the max level noticeably faster which causes them to think there isnt enough content. The whole 1 - 50 experience doesnt feel rewarding since you dont have that gear progression anymore.
4)Zero character progression
Characterlevels become pointless. Who cares if my mage gets +2 intelligence every level when my whole set of high level armor gives me instant +200. I wont see my character getting stronger every level, since Im already an absolute beast at level 1.
5) Challenges
Challenges like quests that require multiple players (which may help people to connect to others) will lose their meaning. The same thing for lower world bosses. Back in the day we needed 20 level 10s to kill that dragon. Today my maxed out level 5 twink can two-hit that dragon. Does this sound like fun to you, when every threat just becomes a big joke?
There are a lot mor reasons but my rusty english gives me a headache. Just DONT give low characters higher level equip.
The question is always, "Will I have fun?" when you comit to any design change.
Let me tell you about the game I played called "Darkfall"
It was a full loot MMO that had no skill caps, no limit on what gear you bring to a fight and friendly fire.
That game turned into a dumpster fire within 3 months because it was not fun.
Having all your gear taken away made getting more a grind to farm the specific mats to make your armor.
With no safe zones people would hover around banks constantly.
Friendly fire forced every person to join very large guilds and roll a mage so that you could create suppressive fire and even then the enemies would siege outside protected times and take your holdings with 5 men.
Should Twinking be in Ashes? Just about every player you ask that question will say, "Hell No"
However your target audience in this case for an open world PvP game will mostly say Yes.
My suggestion for this instance is to have gear that scales down to the level of the player so that you can have really good gear, but you wont be at a major advantage early on.
The trick with a game like this when it comes to equipment is that equipment should be the key, but the character is the door. If scaling loot is too hard just make penalty version when a character is under leveled.
My level 29 rogue in vanilla could routinely take out players 10 levels higher than him in 1v1, or one-shot equal level players with average gear, or take on groups of players in his level range. (though a lot of it had to do with the class admittedly.) It was funny at the time, but looking at it from a balancing perspective, I don't think those folks had much fun or found it very fair.
Echoing a lot of the posts before this, if gear scales to level/character skill and provides a slight bonus over uncommon gear of equal level, then I think it should be fine, as long as it's for making your PvE experience a little bit easier. Giving some people an overwhelming advantage on their alts in PvP over someone with their first character just because they have played longer seems too much.
Side note: Having gear be level dependant seems logical. I always liked getting some piece of gear and having that waiting for me as a reward for getting to the required level.
Whatever is implemented, you gotta ask yourself first; How will this be abused? How can we curb that?
When it comes to twinking. The first thing that must be said is that the world is never fair. If people are not overgeared they will for sure out number you in the open world. Having the ability to take a level 20 gear set and over enchant it to the point that it is a base line level 30 or 40 gear set is good for everyone on the server. Not only is it once again good for the economy, but it gives lower level characters a chance against capped toons. This is all one big open world, and taking away the ability to twink is only going to hurt low level players.
The main argument against twinking would be that not everyone can afford to do it. Which is true. The solution is simple. AoC is a social game, Make friends. Get in a guild that can protect you and help you gear. You should never be alone. You and your guild should always be trying to twink or get the resources to twink. That is the life blood of both the economy and the game.
I think the people that are against twinking and overgearing have not played a enough of a diversity of MMOs to truly understand what they are even arguing for.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
I almost never seriously PvP on my main, but always have a twinked lvl 19 for serious PvP.
Either you do the same stuff a character of your level do, but at a lower risk, or you attempt something riskier for a better reward.
The risk should not be diminished by overgearing. The greater the difference in level between a character and its gear is, the greater should be the chances of dropping the item. Gear should also degrade faster through combat/death (if you rely more on the gear than in your skill in using it, it takes the hit).