Friendly rivalry and spotting slackers with no dps/hps meters?

Honestly I'm excited to play an MMO that isn't going to be cluttered up with a million addons and just have everything you need built in.

That said something that worries me as a guild leader is friendly competition, for example in wow I have 2 hunters in my guild who play the same class and spec and are constantly competing with each other for top dps/performance and they love to bounce ideas off each other for rotation/talents/stat prio/etc. Without any way to measure yourself in Ashes how can they continue their friendly rivalry?

I'm also worried about how to spot and deal with slackers in my guild in Ashes since people tend to take the path of least resistance, if I have a healer that throws up a hot on the tanks and then alt tabs to watch anime during a boss fight how would I as GM know unless I'm watching everyone casting? (impossible in large group sizes). If we're wiping because of no healing going out how can I identify its the lazy healer and not slap the blame on the entire heal team? (which would suck for everyone who is really trying).

I propose a very simplified "meter" that only the group lead is able to see that just provides a breakdown of either active time casting abilities/hitting the mobs/moving around or the ability to see what spell and how often the person is pressing it just to be able to see everyone is participating or at least trying. That or allow only the group lead to see dps/hps meters. It doesn't help with the friendly competition aspect but idk what would. I'd honestly really love the option to "opt in" for dps/hps meters in specific content like only the gm/group in lead in large scale content, or anyone in small groups of 2-3, or perhaps have some ingame target dummies that display dps/hps and you can only see it there.
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Comments

  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member
    edited March 23
    inb4 @Noaani

    I am pro-dps meter in general, but unless someone figures it out third part in a way that IG can't deal with. There will be no dps-meter. Simplified or advanced. I honestly don't think we will ever see any feedback on performance.

    The short answer is its not going to happen.
    Steven doesn't seem like DPS meters and doesn't want them in the game.

    There are also benefits to not having any kind of DPS meter.
    -People are less toxic about builds and rotations.
    -Theory crafting is more of a adventure.
    -You have to at least try someone out before determining that their build is trash. This can lead to teaching instead of flaming.

    Other things to consider:
    -Open world raid bosses wont be that complex if you are used to complex raids.
    -Rotations are not a thing anyway. The game is built to be more reactive than spamming the right skill at the right time.
    -The meta will be less set in stone with no DPS meters.
    -There are other ways to estimated DPS preraid, post raid, and during raid. It is just more work.

    My best advice is to just go with the flow on this. There have been a handful of forum wars on variations of this topic and I don't see IG budging. There have been plenty of great games with no DPS meters. Those games tend to be more about PvP, but I honestly do think Ashes is more PvP leaning anyway.
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  • @Vhaeyne is right.

    I'm pro-DPS meter and pro-healing meter too ... mainly to improve myself as a player and be an asset to the node/guild/group.

    But, not having them in the game is not entirely a bad thing.

    Maybe in Beta we'll see if there's enough API sharing from Intrepid ... for an enterprising add-on author to whip up a meter.
  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men
    This is a topic that has been discussed to death an always ends up devolving into a pissing contest between a handful of people on either side.
    That being said I like the idea of having a combat tracker available, however I don't think an in game UI element is needed. Having exportable combat logging provides the same or potentially more information, and allows for friendly competition and/or performance corrections without having the potential toxicity that comes from the misuse of real-time data in game.
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  • George BlackGeorge Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    The best way to spot a persons ability is having spent days playing the game with them as opposed to "lf 4 dps 1 healer 1 tank" and Q for instanced content.
    That's how you should know.

    You might say I can't spend time with every single guild member.
    That's why I am opposed to guilds having 500+ members. Guilds are better when the game caps the member numbers.
  • Guess I'll take my turn adding some unconstructive salt to the pile. That's what these threads are for, no?

    I look forward to the thousands of poor players who are running garbage builds (because there will be millions of builds and half of them will be garbage) and have absolutely no idea (because DPS meters are banned).

    I mean, I don't really care that much personally. I'll be ahead of the curve (hopefully). It just means that the gap between casual and veteran will be massive, even if you ignore gear/level differences.

    And that will result in meta-defining guides/build websites. Which will result in just as much toxicity as DPS meters, as people bicker about "trash builds" and "meta slaves" without even giving each other a chance to prove themselves in a fight.
  • Ok so basically, this game won't revolve around raids or PvE like it does in WoW. Sure, PvE dps will still be important, but it won't be the only way to measure your worth in your group. It might be equally important to be able to defend yourself and the raid, in case another group attacks, for example. You can't reliably measure PvP performance with dps meters.

    I'm not necessarily against dps meters. I'm just saying that dps meters won't matter as much in this game.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    I'm going to add my thoughts here as well, wouldn't want to disappoint people.

    The first thing is that a combat tracker can't tell you how good someone is in one outing - nor even in two. The only real issue with combat trackers is actually the people that think they can do this, not the tracker itself.

    Second, no combat trackers will result in far fewer builds being actually used by players, and will result in people refusing to take people along on content if they do not conform to the meta. People that are forming a group or a raid would rather take a known quantity along with me in regards to a build, rather than something someone has made up them self that may be better, but is most likely significantly worse.

    Third, without support for a combat tracker (or a built in one) people like myself that have one for the game will be at a massive advantage to the rest of you.

    This is the bed Intrepid have made for themselves, unfortunately, everyone has to lie in it, not just them.
  • SaeduSaedu Member
    I do primarily rated battlegrounds in WoW. These are instanced 10v10 PVP. I run 6 windows of meters on my 35" widescreen that displays stats for both my team and my enemy. The default settings for these windows are: (1) Damage/DPS, (2) Healing/HPS, (3) Dispels, (4) Crowd control done, (5) Interrupts, and (6) Damage received. (sometimes I will switch these out for other metrics, but these are my primary go-to).

    I find this setup very helpful both mid-game and after-game analysis. During the game I can get a much better sense of the dynamics/flow to understand why we might be losing a team fight. This can lead to me shifting the strategy or asking team members to focus in specific areas of their play. Do we need more CC/interrupts? Do we need more DPS/heals? Is their DPS destroying us because of their DOT classes and our dispells are low? Maybe we need to focus more on CCing or killing the top DPS/heals?

    The data's all there and VERY useful. I sure hope all of my enemies don't think meters are useful in PvP :).

    After the fight deeper analysis can be done to see how new recruits on the team are doing. Or to see how enemy players may have dominated in certain aspects of the game.

    Of course you need to be aware of the time individuals are spending in fight vs non-combat objective activities (like sitting/ninjaing a base vs in team fight), but I've already got that subjective information available. Also of course playing the objectives > padding the meters, but the data is still extremely helpful. I can tell easily if people are playing the objective or not. If we are losing/winning fights, I cannot tell as easily why without the data from meters.

    I will agree, meters are probably not that important in massive 250 v 250 battles, but they would be helpful in the instanced battlegrounds and in smaller skirmishes.
  • Why would we want the toxicity that meters bring to the game? Why not (gasp) talk to the player and then group for a while to see what they are like? I know, strange idea.
    Instead of looking at a meter, why not enjoy the game (remember, this is a game - you know, not a job?).
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Why would we want the toxicity that meters bring to the game?

    What toxicity?

    Players bring toxicity, and they do that regardless of whether a meter is present or not.

    They may use a meter to justify their toxicity (justify to themselves, at least), but it is never the root cause of it.
  • SaeduSaedu Member
    Why would we want the toxicity that meters bring to the game? Why not (gasp) talk to the player and then group for a while to see what they are like? I know, strange idea.
    Instead of looking at a meter, why not enjoy the game (remember, this is a game - you know, not a job?).

    The toxicity comes from the people, not from the meters. When you don't have data, people can still be toxic (especially if you are losing), but it will be more subjective. Because its subjective, its harder to be constructive with positive feedback.

    I'm not a toxic jerk when I'm using the meters. But it is absolutely a tool I use to give constructive feedback (and receive it as well). It's also a tool to call out people for exceptional performance and motivate them.

    A toxic/positive environment is all about the leader and what he/she tolerates within the team, not the data, or lack of data.
  • SaeduSaedu Member
    Now what can get really demoralizing to the team is when you are losing and you cannot figure out why. Data helps minimize this frustration.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Founder
    Saedu wrote: »
    I do primarily rated battlegrounds in WoW. These are instanced 10v10 PVP. I run 6 windows of meters on my 35" widescreen that displays stats for both my team and my enemy. The default settings for these windows are: (1) Damage/DPS, (2) Healing/HPS, (3) Dispels, (4) Crowd control done, (5) Interrupts, and (6) Damage received. (sometimes I will switch these out for other metrics, but these are my primary go-to).

    I find this setup very helpful both mid-game and after-game analysis. During the game I can get a much better sense of the dynamics/flow to understand why we might be losing a team fight. This can lead to me shifting the strategy or asking team members to focus in specific areas of their play. Do we need more CC/interrupts? Do we need more DPS/heals? Is their DPS destroying us because of their DOT classes and our dispells are low? Maybe we need to focus more on CCing or killing the top DPS/heals?

    The data's all there and VERY useful. I sure hope all of my enemies don't think meters are useful in PvP :).

    After the fight deeper analysis can be done to see how new recruits on the team are doing. Or to see how enemy players may have dominated in certain aspects of the game.

    Of course you need to be aware of the time individuals are spending in fight vs non-combat objective activities (like sitting/ninjaing a base vs in team fight), but I've already got that subjective information available. Also of course playing the objectives > padding the meters, but the data is still extremely helpful. I can tell easily if people are playing the objective or not. If we are losing/winning fights, I cannot tell as easily why without the data from meters.

    I will agree, meters are probably not that important in massive 250 v 250 battles, but they would be helpful in the instanced battlegrounds and in smaller skirmishes.

    @Saedu Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in? I used to be hardcore into WoW PvP as well, but what you're describing is not what MMORPGs are supposed to be or what AoC is trying to be.

    I'm glad Intrepid won't allow the kind of addons and meters that WoW allows.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?
    Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.

  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member
    Noaani wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?
    Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.

    Reviewing DPS logs is an adventure of its own.
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  • BoeBoe Member
    The pro-meters arguments really sound like you want to play some other game than a mmorpg.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Boe wrote: »
    The pro-meters arguments really sound like you want to play some other game than a mmorpg.

    Why?

    Combat trackers have been a key aspect of almost all MMORPG's for twenty years.

    If you think wanting combat trackers means we do not want an MMORPG, then maybe your understanding of what an MMORPG is needs to be adjusted.
  • GubiakGubiak Member
    Using a dps meter lets you find out what has been done during an encounter and what didn't - it allows you to improve as a player much faster than if you were guessing about what you did wrong. Sadly getting better at games is not something that a lot of people want to do. Some don't have time or care to improve their gameplay and would rather play the game the way they learned through gameplay so far which most of the time will be REALLY sub-optimal. If the game won't be hardcore oriented then there is no way to deal with it other than pay split attention to other people and police their use of skills and check gear manually. There will be cases where people get booted from groups because party will be suspicious of their potentially low dps if they want to go for higher rewards during raids or world bosses and that's ok. It will cause people to clash, leave some egos hurt but this is a social aspect of mmo game after all. There will be people who will accept casual players more than more hardcore because they probably will have fun in the game no matter what, that's ok too. Having no DPS meter will just make players charged with making decisions and reasons as to if and why to weight their place in the party or raid.

    I am personally biased towards DPS meter in games because getting good is part of a fun for me but I understand it is not for everyone, if the game wants to succeed it will need to show people of all skill that it might be for them and not having meters is probably one way to do it.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member
    Boe wrote: »
    The pro-meters arguments really sound like you want to play some other game than a mmorpg.

    Name a non-MMORPG with a DPS meter?
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  • I hate DPS Meters. I'm glad they're not in the game.
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  • JxshuwuJxshuwu Member
    That friendly rivalry gone is a small price to pay for the toxicity of thousands. I mean look at WoW, Raider.io and dps meters mean everything and it is not at all welcoming to new players.

    When i first played WoW, i didnt even have addons and i got people getting mad at me in instance chat that i wasnt topping the charts as a mage or hunter.

    Albion was a better experience, since you just saw everyone casting their spells and attacks, and all you had to know was that; Everyone is trying their best. And that's fine.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Jxshuwu wrote: »
    I mean look at WoW
    The toxicity in WoW is a result of the way the game treats players as disposable, and so players simply carry that on.

    In a game where you can boot a player from a group and have another player instantly ported to you to fill in that gap, in a game where your pool of potential group mates is not limited to your server, in a game where groups and raids are formed by the servers rather than by players, there is no real need to not be toxic towards others.

    Since this is the internet, if people can get away with being toxic, they will be toxic.

    Cut out those things - make it so players are not automatically found for you and ported to you to fill in gaps in your group, so that you are limited to players on your server to group with and so that players form groups themselves (and thus are able to reject toxic players), and all of a sudden, players have very solid reasons to not be so toxic towards each other.

    You'll notice, none of the above even mentions combat trackers (or DPS meters, as people wrongly refer to them). This is because they have no proper place in a discussion on player toxicity.
  • BiccusBiccus Member
    In a game where it's likely that your name and reputation might actually matter, I think combat trackers wouldn't cause nearly as much toxicity as people think. Noaani points out some fantastic reasons as to why WoW is in the state it's in currently. You go back years before all that and I don't think it was nearly as toxic as it is now (my experience). Also with most of the content being open world, you can't just quit a group and re queue to do the same thing as soon as it goes wrong once.

    I don't even think there's much to worry about with a meta build. The content is so varied with solo PvP, caravans, sieges, guild wars, PvE.. there's no way there will be a 1 build fits all
  • CypherCypher Member, Braver of Worlds
    The worst is when players start to put a stat threshold on their party. So you go to look for a raid group and all of them say “15k damage+” or something along those lines and they look at your stats when you join and kick you if they aren’t high enough, before even starting. Because god-forbid they take 7 minutes to clear the boss instead of 5, right?

    I don’t know how this relates to DPS meters but I’m for any way to reduce or prevent the above from happening in AoC.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Cypher wrote: »
    I don’t know how this relates to DPS meters but I’m for any way to reduce or prevent the above from happening in AoC.
    I'm all for this not happening as well.

    Problem is, if not combat trackers, people will require achievements be linked, or they will assess gear, or they will require players be a pre-selected build, or they will give players a test of some sort.

    The way to stop this sort of thing isn't to remove the systems players use to assess the effectiveness, as there won't be a game left. The way to stop this kind of thing is to make it so players can't get away with this kind of behavior.

    Making player reputation actually matter is the central pivot of this, and is why many of the issues that players complain about in regards to this kind of player behavior is simply not present in many games that don't automate group formation and such.
  • DPS meters suck. Next topic.
  • AzryilAzryil Member, Leader of Men
    HixHaxxen wrote: »
    DPS meters suck. Next topic.

    duly noted.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    HixHaxxen wrote: »
    DPS meters suck. Next topic.

    People that don't understand combat trackers suck - and also generally call then DPS meters.
  • The game will come with an indirect combat meters: time to kill. Not as precise as you'd all wish, but if you want to built your own charts and tables I'm sure those who like number crushing can figure something.

    Design tests for your guild members. How long to kill one though mob. How long to clear a group of weaker ones. Standardize it if you want more accuracy.

    More work than having all automated in an addon, but still possible.
  • VmanGmanVmanGman Member, Founder
    Noaani wrote: »
    VmanGman wrote: »
    Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?
    Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.

    @Noaani You're missing the point... Did you read the description of that person's game session? An instanced battleground where he/she has multiple data trackers on the screen at all times. That does not sound like an orc hunting in a fantasy world (or whatever other adventure you would embark on)... which is what MMORPGs were designed for. An adventure to partake in.

    An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.
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