The game will come with an indirect combat meters: time to kill.
This is definitely going to be a large part of deciding whether or not the dps are pulling their weight, though maybe not specifically who.
My question is, and i'm sorry if this is common knowledge: will players be able to adjust their augments on the fly? and by on the fly I mean in between combat scenarios.
I think being able to adjust augments after failing a section of a raid or dungeon, and giving it another go with a slightly different, potentially more effective set up would alleviate a lot of the pressure people may feel to run with the meta. A meta that I see encompassing many possibilities because of the complexity of the archetypes and augments.
For example: I join up with a group as a weapon master using a non meta set up, but with the proper guild rank/ religion rank or whatever that allows me to use the meta set up if absolutely necessary. The group may be more willing to allow me to tag along with the build I find to be more fun if I was capable of swapping some augments if we run into a brick wall.
I hope there will be guild metrics to determine who is contributing to the team effort. There's much more to teamwork than just doing PvE or PvP content. Your guild is going to need resources. Your node is going to need experience.
If you want to know who is performing in combat then you need to determine some kind of training regime.
- If you can't arrange PvP test battles against a "friendly" guild then you don't have a serious PvP group.
- If you can't arrange PvE dungeon trials against "easy" content then you don't have a serious PvE group.
Players that just turn up and expect to do the fun bit without any preparation shouldn't be part of the equation.
I understand the desirability of DPS meters, but they are only part of the equation and if you rely on them too heavily then you miss out on the "real world" (LOL, Verra) application of team tactics.
It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.
you can track your health, you can physically see the damage numbers you're doing, so why shouldn't you be allowed to track the damage you're doing? You can chose to not have a combat tracker on your screen if you only want an adventure.
I want to play a game, I want to be as good at the game as I can. A combat tracker will give a much better idea on what I'm doing well/badly at. Just have faith that the community will matter more than a groups elitism.
An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.
There are a few problems with this argument.
The first is that it is simply an argument against a quantity of data, not an argument against access to data. I doubt you would want to argue that floating combat feedback (those numbers you see on screen that tell you how much damage each hit does, and such) should be removed from the game. Since this is also simply information, your argument is that there is some arbitrary point between that and what the poster in question described that is an acceptable limit on how much data should be made available.
You are also arguing that this arbitrary line should be the same for all players.
Is the level that this poster went to above what I would do? Yes, it is. I prefer to run a combat tracker in the background so that I can analyze things at the end of the day (or the following day, usually).
Does this mean that this player shouldn't be able to do things the way they want to do them? Hell no.
The funny thing is, since Ashes will have a combat tracker, if you were absolutely adamant that players shouldn't be able to do what that poster described, the best way to make that happen is to ask Intrepid to implement a combat tracker in to the game, but make it only give feedback at the end of the encounter/event.
Strangely, this is what I have been arguing for Intrepid to add since about 2018.
One argument that I can see against DPS meters in AoC is that they would automate the process of figuring out someone else's build. The game has so many ways to make a "unique" build from spending skill points to level up your base skills, weapon skills, to racial, class, social organization and religious augments. Having a detailed breakdown on demand would simply give all of the information for free with no effort required.
In my opinion the meter won't get rid of or create toxic behavior. I've seen plenty from groups that weren't using a dps tracker. You'll still have groups enter an area, start clearing mobs, and when it's taking longer than they want with a "lower skilled group" the "elite" players will just drop and leave. I can't say i completely blame them even though I've never really considered myself more than a decent player. I've been in bad groups where they've been absolutely fail and gone "linkdead" to make it stop. I've been in random groups that did well enough but not great and everyone was still fine. The DPS tracker had nothing to do with how people reacted. I generally just used mine after a zone was finished to see what new gear was proc'ing or which abilities were doing the most damage/heals. I based my own toxicity on how well the flow of the zone was... or wasn't...
As someone previously stated, even without the tracker people will find ways to judge a group. Most likely by time it's taking at the beginning.
One argument that I can see against DPS meters in AoC is that they would automate the process of figuring out someone else's build. The game has so many ways to make a "unique" build from spending skill points to level up your base skills, weapon skills, to racial, class, social organization and religious augments. Having a detailed breakdown on demand would simply give all of the information for free with no effort required.
what? Of course they do. Combat trackers give you a detailed breakdown of everything that happened during the fight. Number of casts, fight duration, dmg breakdown, the sequence and frequency of the skills used, mana/resources used, to allies healing you and buffing you. In WoW it even shows you players talents.
Would you care to elaborate why is it that it wouldn't work that way in AoC?
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AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
what? Of course they do. Combat trackers give you a detailed breakdown of everything that happened during the fight. Number of casts, fight duration, dmg breakdown, the sequence and frequency of the skills used, mana/resources used, to allies healing you and buffing you. In WoW it even shows you players talents.
Would you care to elaborate why is it that it wouldn't work that way in AoC?
It would simplify making builds but it wouldn't automate it, you would still need manually test any build changes with the combat tracker running to compare the results.
Most the the build testing done in wow is done using SimulationCraft to quickly iterate over changes in a build not Advanced Combat logging.
I'd recommend keeping the meters in game only. I find things like raider.io and drustvar.com lead more to a pre-judging someone before they get a chance to actually group with you. In particular it can make it tough for people to get into games when they are new cause players making the group don't want to take the risk. Yes, I use these external tools in WoW, but I think the game would be better with only in-game meters.
If you can't externally export the data and it only lasts say ~24 hours in game, then you can use it for analysis in the moment of the games you just did with the people you played with, but it can't be used by other people.
Would you care to elaborate why is it that it wouldn't work that way in AoC?
A combat tracker takes basic information from the games client.
This information usually contains the caster, the target(s), the name of the ability, the amount and type of damage the ability does, and the time.
There is no way - using just a combat tracker - to be able to tell what build a player has.
You can tell what abilities the player has - if someone is hitting you with a spell called fireball, it is safe to assume they have spec'd in to fireball.
However, if fireball does 100 damage as standard, and this player is hitting you with fireballs that deal 120 damage, a combat tracker has no inherent way of knowing if that fireball spell has skill points added to it, if the additional damage is from better gear, if the additional damage is from an augment (I am assuming augments won't change the name of abilities), if the additional damage is from a buff the caster may have, or from a debuff the target may have.
Now, if the game literally tells those that want to know what build the player in question is using (as is the case in WoW), then obviously that is additional information that can be added. However, that is not an inherent aspect of a combat tracker, it is literally the games developers telling you what spec the player has - which as far as I know is something only WoW really does.
I hope that clears up a few misconceptions you have about combat trackers.
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AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'd recommend keeping the meters in game only. I find things like raider.io and drustvar.com lead more to a pre-judging someone before they get a chance to actually group with you. In particular it can make it tough for people to get into games when they are new cause players making the group don't want to take the risk. Yes, I use these external tools in WoW, but I think the game would be better with only in-game meters.
The APIs that Raider.io uses have nothing to do with dps meters or combat trackers. It uses the battle.net APIs to query armory data.
It would simplify making builds but it wouldn't automate it, you would still need manually test any build changes with the combat tracker running to compare the results.
Most the the build testing done in wow is done using SimulationCraft to quickly iterate over changes in a build not Advanced Combat logging.
My initial comment was that it would automate the process of reverse engineering builds, in a game that tries to give the player a large amount of options so that they can make their builds unique, which would be counter intuitive to the purpose of the class progression design.
In a 1v1 I can easily tell that your fireball has the DoT upgrade, in a 40v40 it's just not as easy, but a combat tracker will tell me what you, SPECIFICALLY YOU, were running an upped version of fireball. It will also tell me that you used "enter defensive spell here" with lets say a religious augment, something that I wouldn't necessarily be able to tell just from looking at you cast the spell. As such I have access to more info than what I should, based on a 3rd party program.
SimCraft is a tool that helps you find the maximum theoretical throughput of a build, under preset conditions. That is great, but it doesn't allow me to reverse engineer your build (at least not as fast and efficiently - hence the word automate) the same way looking at a breakdown of your skills used.
However, if fireball does 100 damage as standard, and this player is hitting you with fireballs that deal 120 damage, a combat tracker has no inherent way of knowing if that fireball spell has skill points added to it, if the additional damage is from better gear, if the additional damage is from an augment (I am assuming augments won't change the name of abilities), or if the additional damage is from a buff the player may have.
Yes but if the 20 dmg is in the form of a DoT, I will know that it is an upgraded version of a fireball and DPS meters do tell me if the damage taken is DoT or not. Then using simple deductive reasoning I can know whether you were running an upgraded version of fireball, based on taking DoT or not. Sure, in a 1v1 I can see that for myself, but in a 40v40 or 100v100 or 250v250 it isn't nearly as easy. Also don't forget that I can see damage taken for my grp/raid as well.
Yes but if the 20 dmg is in the form of a DoT, I will know that it is an upgraded version of a fireball and DPS meters do tell me if the damage taken is DoT or not. Then using simple deductive reasoning I can know whether you were running an upgraded version of fireball, based on taking DoT or not. Sure, in a 1v1 I can see that for myself, but in a 40v40 or 100v100 or 250v250 it isn't nearly as easy. Also don't forget that I can see damage taken for my grp/raid as well.
While this is all true, you are forgetting where the information for an actual combat tracker comes from.
All of the information they have access to is information us players have access to. We have chat windows with combat feedback, and all a combat tracker is doing is taking the information contained there, and presenting it in an easier format.
If you want to know if that players fireball had a DoT attached to it, you don't need a combat tracker to do it. It just makes it easier.
As to your last point about being able to see the damage of your group or raid, that is 100% up to what information the developers allow the combat tracker to have access to. It isn't an automatic given that you will have access to that information, even if most games do allow it.
And even without the above, being able to sometimes tell what augment a player is using on a few spells is not the same thing as a combat tracker automating the process of working out someone's build, which was your claim.
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Not a fan of having a huge amount of data on my screen it takes away from enjoying the game because I feel almost obliged to use it if I can for maximum efficiency, I would probably spend more time staring at all those numbers than the actual game until I get everything down to muscle memory.
As far as the guild aspect of it all goes to see who is actually messing up due to tabbing into some anime on the side honestly I think you should know the people you raid with to some extent and be able to figure out who is most likely doing something wrong and instead of berating them for it just try to encourage them to participate more.
I'm pretty ignorant about combat trackers but I always thought that the less numbers a game gives you the better, if instead of seeing a bosses HP we could have a more viusal cue on the model itself it would make the game much more immersive, well for me just my own health/mana/exp etc would be enough and let players figure out other things through playing the game instead of seeing what gives more efficient outcomes simply by looking at the data seen through combat trackers and other similar things.
Not a fan of having a huge amount of data on my screen
Neither am I.
I don't use combat trackers to give me real time information on player performance - I don't find that to be overly useful information to have. I use them to analyze fights after the fact. I will sometimes use them to give me specific data on an encounter if needed by that encounter, but this is about it.
The point to more/better data in a game is that the more data players have, the more they know what is going on, the more intricate encounters are able to be made.
With detailed information, the developers are able to add in mechanics that have very small room for error, and very major consequences should those errors occur. If the developers have to rely on more generalized information feedback to players, those mechanics can't be as finely tuned and/or the penalty for them needs to be significantly lessened.
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Not a fan of having a huge amount of data on my screen
Neither am I.
I don't use combat trackers to give me real time information on player performance - I don't find that to be overly useful information to have. I use them to analyze fights after the fact. I will sometimes use them to give me specific data on an encounter if needed by that encounter, but this is about it.
The point to more/better data in a game is that the more data players have, the more they know what is going on, the more intricate encounters are able to be made.
With detailed information, the developers are able to add in mechanics that have very small room for error, and very major consequences should those errors occur. If the developers have to rely on more generalized information feedback to players, those mechanics can't be as finely tuned and/or the penalty for them needs to be significantly lessened.
As far as planning encounters goes players would not need to have access to the data that the devs do, so they can still plan/create encounters ?
One issue I have is if I get to look at any data after a fight to help me figure out a more efficient way of going about it, it will take away from a more trial and error approach of just feeling things out. Probably a bad example to give but if I play Dark Souls and I look at the pattern of the boss after dying once then this is enough for me to probably beat it within the next 1-3 tries otherwise I would slave over the boss figuring out how exactly he attacks and how much damage each attack deals etc.
As far as planning encounters goes players would not need to have access to the data that the devs do, so they can still plan/create encounters ?
I don't follow.
No, players don't need access to the data developers have in order to take on encounters, but combat trackers do not provide that information.
One issue I have is if I get to look at any data after a fight to help me figure out a more efficient way of going about it, it will take away from a more trial and error approach of just feeling things out. Probably a bad example to give but if I play Dark Souls and I look at the pattern of the boss after dying once then this is enough for me to probably beat it within the next 1-3 tries otherwise I would slave over the boss figuring out how exactly he attacks and how much damage each attack deals etc.
Without a combat tracker, you are engaging in trial and error blind.
With a combat tracker, you are trying out a thing, getting data, assessing that data, determining where any issues may be, working out a way to deal with those issues and then trying again.
Both are trial and error - one is just far superior to the other. One is only suitable to try and solve simple problems, the other is suitable to try and solve complex problems.
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
As far as planning encounters goes players would not need to have access to the data that the devs do, so they can still plan/create encounters ?
I don't follow.
No, players don't need access to the data developers have in order to take on encounters, but combat trackers do not provide that information.
One issue I have is if I get to look at any data after a fight to help me figure out a more efficient way of going about it, it will take away from a more trial and error approach of just feeling things out. Probably a bad example to give but if I play Dark Souls and I look at the pattern of the boss after dying once then this is enough for me to probably beat it within the next 1-3 tries otherwise I would slave over the boss figuring out how exactly he attacks and how much damage each attack deals etc.
Without a combat tracker, you are engaging in trial and error blind.
With a combat tracker, you are trying out a thing, getting data, assessing that data, determining where any issues may be, working out a way to deal with those issues and then trying again.
Both are trial and error - one is just far superior to the other.
You also get data if you don't have a combat tracker it is just not as accurate as the combat tracker, I suppose if I was fighting a fire resistant mob I'd rather see for myself that "Hey the fireball seems to be dealing less damage than usual" rather than getting actual numbers that tell me so. I guess it comes down to personal preference at the end of the day, I'll leave it in Intrepids much more qualified hands to figure out things based on the testing we do.
As far as planning encounters goes players would not need to have access to the data that the devs do, so they can still plan/create encounters ?
I don't follow.
No, players don't need access to the data developers have in order to take on encounters, but combat trackers do not provide that information.
One issue I have is if I get to look at any data after a fight to help me figure out a more efficient way of going about it, it will take away from a more trial and error approach of just feeling things out. Probably a bad example to give but if I play Dark Souls and I look at the pattern of the boss after dying once then this is enough for me to probably beat it within the next 1-3 tries otherwise I would slave over the boss figuring out how exactly he attacks and how much damage each attack deals etc.
Without a combat tracker, you are engaging in trial and error blind.
With a combat tracker, you are trying out a thing, getting data, assessing that data, determining where any issues may be, working out a way to deal with those issues and then trying again.
Both are trial and error - one is just far superior to the other.
You also get data if you don't have a combat tracker it is just not as accurate as the combat tracker, I suppose if I was fighting a fire resistant mob I'd rather see for myself that "Hey the fireball seems to be dealing less damage than usual" rather than getting actual numbers that tell me so. I guess it comes down to personal preference at the end of the day, I'll leave it in Intrepids much more qualified hands to figure out things based on the testing we do.
I mean, if we are talking about incredibly simple encounters like that, sure, a combat tracker isn't needed.
When you are talking about encounters with 30+ different mechanics on the go at a time though, you aren't going to notice if your fireball is doing full damage.
Honestly, I am not saying combat trackers are needed for base population, or even for easy boss content. I am saying they are needed if the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters.
Honestly, I am not saying combat trackers are needed for base population, or even for easy boss content. I am saying they are needed if the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters.
"IF the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters."
Maybe we can all hyjack the Q/A thread like the guild of pirates and ask the DEVs for an examples of fights from other MMOs that will have a similar intricacy to the ones they plan for Ashes?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm sure they are needed I just don't want the player base to have access to them, as long as the devs can see the data provided and plan encounters from that I will be more than satisfied.
Combat trackers give the community a way to help each other. If I'm a cleric in a raid group and another cleric asks me why they aren't doing well. If I could look at what spells they are casting etc I would have a much easier way of helping them. (example being HoT/buff uptimes you'd never know without a tracker)
Honestly, I am not saying combat trackers are needed for base population, or even for easy boss content. I am saying they are needed if the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters.
"IF the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters."
Maybe we can all hyjack the Q/A thread like the guild of pirates and ask the DEVs for an examples of fights from other MMOs that will have a similar intricacy to the ones they plan for Ashes?
It would be more useful - though I don't expect them to really have an idea yet.
The kind of content I am talking about can't be create by the developers until the combat system is developed, tested, implemented and understood.
This means that this content type won't be in the game at release. It actually can't be developed and ready for release.
If you look at most games with good raid content, the best content is added to the game 2 - 5 years after the game is released.
It would be more useful - though I don't expect them to really have an idea yet.
The kind of content I am talking about can't be create by the developers until the combat system is developed, tested, implemented and understood.
This means that this content type won't be in the game at release. It actually can't be developed and ready for release.
If you look at most games with good raid content, the best content is added to the game 2 - 5 years after the game is released.
True enough. Would still be nice to know what encounters from other games Jeff, Steven, or Margret struggled with. I just don't want people to flood the Q and A. I think that is kind of a silly way to do things.
I hope the joking tone of my prior post came across. I noticed some people take the things I say on here way too seriously.
Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?
Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.
@Noaani You're missing the point... Did you read the description of that person's game session? An instanced battleground where he/she has multiple data trackers on the screen at all times. That does not sound like an orc hunting in a fantasy world (or whatever other adventure you would embark on)... which is what MMORPGs were designed for. An adventure to partake in.
An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.
Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?
Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.
@Noaani You're missing the point... Did you read the description of that person's game session? An instanced battleground where he/she has multiple data trackers on the screen at all times. That does not sound like an orc hunting in a fantasy world (or whatever other adventure you would embark on)... which is what MMORPGs were designed for. An adventure to partake in.
An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.
Seems like a rather arbitrary point to draw a line at.
Thinking like that, you might as well start removing every piece of the UI that might distract from the adventure including party and raid health bars, your own/enemy health bar, pop up damage numbers, tooltips, buff and debuff indicators and your Ability Hotbar.
In the end, all those parts of the UI are mere numbers and data. None of those sound like a orc hunting in a fantasy world either.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?
Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.
@Noaani You're missing the point... Did you read the description of that person's game session? An instanced battleground where he/she has multiple data trackers on the screen at all times. That does not sound like an orc hunting in a fantasy world (or whatever other adventure you would embark on)... which is what MMORPGs were designed for. An adventure to partake in.
An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.
Seems like a rather arbitrary point to draw a line at.
Thinking like that, you might as well start removing every piece of the UI that might distract from the adventure including party and raid health bars, your own/enemy health bar, pop up damage numbers, tooltips, buff and debuff indicators and your Ability Hotbar.
In the end, all those parts of the UI are mere numbers and data. None of those sound like a orc hunting in a fantasy world either.
Right... it's impossible to see the difference between all those meters and the normal game UI. /s
Comments
This is definitely going to be a large part of deciding whether or not the dps are pulling their weight, though maybe not specifically who.
My question is, and i'm sorry if this is common knowledge: will players be able to adjust their augments on the fly? and by on the fly I mean in between combat scenarios.
I think being able to adjust augments after failing a section of a raid or dungeon, and giving it another go with a slightly different, potentially more effective set up would alleviate a lot of the pressure people may feel to run with the meta. A meta that I see encompassing many possibilities because of the complexity of the archetypes and augments.
For example: I join up with a group as a weapon master using a non meta set up, but with the proper guild rank/ religion rank or whatever that allows me to use the meta set up if absolutely necessary. The group may be more willing to allow me to tag along with the build I find to be more fun if I was capable of swapping some augments if we run into a brick wall.
@VmanGman My thoughts exactly.
If you want to know who is performing in combat then you need to determine some kind of training regime.
- If you can't arrange PvP test battles against a "friendly" guild then you don't have a serious PvP group.
- If you can't arrange PvE dungeon trials against "easy" content then you don't have a serious PvE group.
Players that just turn up and expect to do the fun bit without any preparation shouldn't be part of the equation.
I understand the desirability of DPS meters, but they are only part of the equation and if you rely on them too heavily then you miss out on the "real world" (LOL, Verra) application of team tactics.
you can track your health, you can physically see the damage numbers you're doing, so why shouldn't you be allowed to track the damage you're doing? You can chose to not have a combat tracker on your screen if you only want an adventure.
I want to play a game, I want to be as good at the game as I can. A combat tracker will give a much better idea on what I'm doing well/badly at. Just have faith that the community will matter more than a groups elitism.
Yeah I don't depend on them to be good. Just skillz for me. You'll get their one day too. You will feel free with no training wheels.
There are a few problems with this argument.
The first is that it is simply an argument against a quantity of data, not an argument against access to data. I doubt you would want to argue that floating combat feedback (those numbers you see on screen that tell you how much damage each hit does, and such) should be removed from the game. Since this is also simply information, your argument is that there is some arbitrary point between that and what the poster in question described that is an acceptable limit on how much data should be made available.
You are also arguing that this arbitrary line should be the same for all players.
Is the level that this poster went to above what I would do? Yes, it is. I prefer to run a combat tracker in the background so that I can analyze things at the end of the day (or the following day, usually).
Does this mean that this player shouldn't be able to do things the way they want to do them? Hell no.
The funny thing is, since Ashes will have a combat tracker, if you were absolutely adamant that players shouldn't be able to do what that poster described, the best way to make that happen is to ask Intrepid to implement a combat tracker in to the game, but make it only give feedback at the end of the encounter/event.
Strangely, this is what I have been arguing for Intrepid to add since about 2018.
As someone previously stated, even without the tracker people will find ways to judge a group. Most likely by time it's taking at the beginning.
Combat trackers dont work like that.
what? Of course they do. Combat trackers give you a detailed breakdown of everything that happened during the fight. Number of casts, fight duration, dmg breakdown, the sequence and frequency of the skills used, mana/resources used, to allies healing you and buffing you. In WoW it even shows you players talents.
Would you care to elaborate why is it that it wouldn't work that way in AoC?
Most the the build testing done in wow is done using SimulationCraft to quickly iterate over changes in a build not Advanced Combat logging.
If you can't externally export the data and it only lasts say ~24 hours in game, then you can use it for analysis in the moment of the games you just did with the people you played with, but it can't be used by other people.
This information usually contains the caster, the target(s), the name of the ability, the amount and type of damage the ability does, and the time.
There is no way - using just a combat tracker - to be able to tell what build a player has.
You can tell what abilities the player has - if someone is hitting you with a spell called fireball, it is safe to assume they have spec'd in to fireball.
However, if fireball does 100 damage as standard, and this player is hitting you with fireballs that deal 120 damage, a combat tracker has no inherent way of knowing if that fireball spell has skill points added to it, if the additional damage is from better gear, if the additional damage is from an augment (I am assuming augments won't change the name of abilities), if the additional damage is from a buff the caster may have, or from a debuff the target may have.
Now, if the game literally tells those that want to know what build the player in question is using (as is the case in WoW), then obviously that is additional information that can be added. However, that is not an inherent aspect of a combat tracker, it is literally the games developers telling you what spec the player has - which as far as I know is something only WoW really does.
I hope that clears up a few misconceptions you have about combat trackers.
My initial comment was that it would automate the process of reverse engineering builds, in a game that tries to give the player a large amount of options so that they can make their builds unique, which would be counter intuitive to the purpose of the class progression design.
In a 1v1 I can easily tell that your fireball has the DoT upgrade, in a 40v40 it's just not as easy, but a combat tracker will tell me what you, SPECIFICALLY YOU, were running an upped version of fireball. It will also tell me that you used "enter defensive spell here" with lets say a religious augment, something that I wouldn't necessarily be able to tell just from looking at you cast the spell. As such I have access to more info than what I should, based on a 3rd party program.
SimCraft is a tool that helps you find the maximum theoretical throughput of a build, under preset conditions. That is great, but it doesn't allow me to reverse engineer your build (at least not as fast and efficiently - hence the word automate) the same way looking at a breakdown of your skills used.
Yes but if the 20 dmg is in the form of a DoT, I will know that it is an upgraded version of a fireball and DPS meters do tell me if the damage taken is DoT or not. Then using simple deductive reasoning I can know whether you were running an upgraded version of fireball, based on taking DoT or not. Sure, in a 1v1 I can see that for myself, but in a 40v40 or 100v100 or 250v250 it isn't nearly as easy. Also don't forget that I can see damage taken for my grp/raid as well.
While this is all true, you are forgetting where the information for an actual combat tracker comes from.
All of the information they have access to is information us players have access to. We have chat windows with combat feedback, and all a combat tracker is doing is taking the information contained there, and presenting it in an easier format.
If you want to know if that players fireball had a DoT attached to it, you don't need a combat tracker to do it. It just makes it easier.
As to your last point about being able to see the damage of your group or raid, that is 100% up to what information the developers allow the combat tracker to have access to. It isn't an automatic given that you will have access to that information, even if most games do allow it.
And even without the above, being able to sometimes tell what augment a player is using on a few spells is not the same thing as a combat tracker automating the process of working out someone's build, which was your claim.
As far as the guild aspect of it all goes to see who is actually messing up due to tabbing into some anime on the side honestly I think you should know the people you raid with to some extent and be able to figure out who is most likely doing something wrong and instead of berating them for it just try to encourage them to participate more.
I'm pretty ignorant about combat trackers but I always thought that the less numbers a game gives you the better, if instead of seeing a bosses HP we could have a more viusal cue on the model itself it would make the game much more immersive, well for me just my own health/mana/exp etc would be enough and let players figure out other things through playing the game instead of seeing what gives more efficient outcomes simply by looking at the data seen through combat trackers and other similar things.
I don't use combat trackers to give me real time information on player performance - I don't find that to be overly useful information to have. I use them to analyze fights after the fact. I will sometimes use them to give me specific data on an encounter if needed by that encounter, but this is about it.
The point to more/better data in a game is that the more data players have, the more they know what is going on, the more intricate encounters are able to be made.
With detailed information, the developers are able to add in mechanics that have very small room for error, and very major consequences should those errors occur. If the developers have to rely on more generalized information feedback to players, those mechanics can't be as finely tuned and/or the penalty for them needs to be significantly lessened.
One issue I have is if I get to look at any data after a fight to help me figure out a more efficient way of going about it, it will take away from a more trial and error approach of just feeling things out. Probably a bad example to give but if I play Dark Souls and I look at the pattern of the boss after dying once then this is enough for me to probably beat it within the next 1-3 tries otherwise I would slave over the boss figuring out how exactly he attacks and how much damage each attack deals etc.
No, players don't need access to the data developers have in order to take on encounters, but combat trackers do not provide that information.
Without a combat tracker, you are engaging in trial and error blind.
With a combat tracker, you are trying out a thing, getting data, assessing that data, determining where any issues may be, working out a way to deal with those issues and then trying again.
Both are trial and error - one is just far superior to the other. One is only suitable to try and solve simple problems, the other is suitable to try and solve complex problems.
I mean, if we are talking about incredibly simple encounters like that, sure, a combat tracker isn't needed.
When you are talking about encounters with 30+ different mechanics on the go at a time though, you aren't going to notice if your fireball is doing full damage.
Honestly, I am not saying combat trackers are needed for base population, or even for easy boss content. I am saying they are needed if the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters.
"IF the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters."
Maybe we can all hyjack the Q/A thread like the guild of pirates and ask the DEVs for an examples of fights from other MMOs that will have a similar intricacy to the ones they plan for Ashes?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
It would be more useful - though I don't expect them to really have an idea yet.
The kind of content I am talking about can't be create by the developers until the combat system is developed, tested, implemented and understood.
This means that this content type won't be in the game at release. It actually can't be developed and ready for release.
If you look at most games with good raid content, the best content is added to the game 2 - 5 years after the game is released.
True enough. Would still be nice to know what encounters from other games Jeff, Steven, or Margret struggled with. I just don't want people to flood the Q and A. I think that is kind of a silly way to do things.
I hope the joking tone of my prior post came across. I noticed some people take the things I say on here way too seriously.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Sad Eve Online player noises
Seems like a rather arbitrary point to draw a line at.
Thinking like that, you might as well start removing every piece of the UI that might distract from the adventure including party and raid health bars, your own/enemy health bar, pop up damage numbers, tooltips, buff and debuff indicators and your Ability Hotbar.
In the end, all those parts of the UI are mere numbers and data. None of those sound like a orc hunting in a fantasy world either.
Right... it's impossible to see the difference between all those meters and the normal game UI. /s