What I find most fascinating is that when PvEers complain about Corruption, they are told they shouldn't be advocating to change the design. But, when it's combat trackers, all of a sudden it's OK to rant about how that should be changed.
I would say that is the difference between a core mechanic and what is essentially an add-on. So not quite on the same level.
That's as if you were to say you find it odd that some people stop other from complaining about losing your souls in a Soulsborne game, but they were ok with adding a timer or dps meter in it. One is unnecessary to the enjoyment of the content, and the other is a core game mechanic.
As it doesn't affect the core of gameplay, it is fine to be discussed as an added option. But wanting to change the Corruption system, because people are afraid of not being able to gank free of repercussion/afraid somehow people will magically be able to suicide by player in order to corrupt them, is a whole different matter.
Also most people complaining about Corruption are by far people who hope to PvP rampage through the world like in WoW second phase.
With that being said, I wholly agree with this part:
Different playstyles are going to have different philosphies about what should be in the game.
Frequently, those playstyles will have philosophies that clash.
But, we just have to go with Steven decides is best for the game.
As far as we know, combat trackers won't be implemented by the Ashes devs.
Of course, we've probably got at least 2 more years before launch. A lot of stuff is subject to change.
New World changed more significant features than a mere combat tracker before launch.
Similar to Corruption, we'll have to play before we can meaningfully evaluate playing without a combat tracker in Ashes.
You have just described yourself as an immoral person... so at least we know who we are dealing with.
It seems you cant read.
An immoral person has no morals. I said several times that I do, and that I stick to them, and that they do not change when the rules around me change.
I also said that my morals may be different to yours.
There is no way you can read and comprehend that post you quoted and come out thinking I am immoral, unless you believe your morals are the only valid morals.
That says more about you than it does me.
Also I have not "forced Steven's hand", I have simply informed him of some of the lengths people will go to use a combat tracker, and the history in other games that have taken the same stance he is taking now - both things he was unaware of.
He is then free to make his own decision.
The funny thing is the analogy between that and combat trackers. All I did was provide information, exactly as a combat tracker does for players. He is then free to do with that information as he pleases, as is the case with combat trackers.
If it turns out he makes a decision that he needs to backpedal on in the future, at least he has no one to blame but himself.
A person with no morals... is amoral.. I said you were immoral. I'll wait while you google it.
I'll reiterate then.
Just because I do not conform to your morals, that does not mean I do not conform to a widely accepted set of morals.
As I said earlier, ArenaNet found that more than 50% of players were running combat trackers, even though they were against the rules.
That means that while my morals may be different to yours, they are widely accepted.
You are assuming your morals are the only accepted standard here, which as I said above, says more about you than me.
Then why do you keep trying to tell raiders how raids work?
Yea I think this comment invalidates Dygz opinion on this topic. Raiding is too core to a MMOs identity. Dygz did you mean you are not a current raider? Have you been actively involved in competitive raiding (other competitive gameplay in MMOs like rated pvp)? If not I can see very much why you have the position you have, but it's really born out of ignorance as you can't understand how critical combat trackers are for these environments.....
I'd argue a lack of combat trackers will probably increase toxicity more than decrease it for the competitive high end players. Most of us don't use them to put down others, we use them to help each other out to get better so we can win as a team.
Most of the toxic behavior that happen around combat trackers is probably in the pug area.
Then why do you keep trying to tell raiders how raids work?
Yea I think this comment invalidates Dygz opinion on this topic.
I think the fact that his MMO experience is largely based on Wizard101 - an actual child's game - is what invalidates his opinion.
He is of the opinion that the game is a "family" game, not a child's game, which makes him the MMO equivalent of the creepy guy sitting by himself in the back of the theater watching Toy Story, claiming it is a "family" movie, not a children's movie.
You have just described yourself as an immoral person... so at least we know who we are dealing with.
It seems you cant read.
An immoral person has no morals. I said several times that I do, and that I stick to them, and that they do not change when the rules around me change.
I also said that my morals may be different to yours.
There is no way you can read and comprehend that post you quoted and come out thinking I am immoral, unless you believe your morals are the only valid morals.
That says more about you than it does me.
Also I have not "forced Steven's hand", I have simply informed him of some of the lengths people will go to use a combat tracker, and the history in other games that have taken the same stance he is taking now - both things he was unaware of.
He is then free to make his own decision.
The funny thing is the analogy between that and combat trackers. All I did was provide information, exactly as a combat tracker does for players. He is then free to do with that information as he pleases, as is the case with combat trackers.
If it turns out he makes a decision that he needs to backpedal on in the future, at least he has no one to blame but himself.
A person with no morals... is amoral.. I said you were immoral. I'll wait while you google it.
I'll reiterate then.
Just because I do not conform to your morals, that does not mean I do not conform to a widely accepted set of morals.
As I said earlier, ArenaNet found that more than 50% of players were running combat trackers, even though they were against the rules.
That means that while my morals may be different to yours, they are widely accepted.
You are assuming your morals are the only accepted standard here, which as I said above, says more about you than me.
Naw dude. Your position on this is immoral for sure. Knowingly breaking a EULA is effectively lying to the company that you made an agreement with. You are not keeping up your end of the deal.. It's up to IS if they decide to enforce, but they would be 100% in thier right to ban you or take some sort of other action against your account.
As much as I desperately want combat trackers, I would NOT break an agreement to get them. I think your approach to handling the EULA only hurts the position that we are trying for.
I assume in your mind this is some sort of "Steven is so wrong I'll prove him right for his own good" type of situation. sure he's wrong, but that doesn't justify your premeditated decision to break the rules even though you plan to turn yourself in.
Now, if you showed IS how to break the rules, but only as a one-time demo on content that didn't matter, the that has some merit (like a white hat hacker finding an exploit in software). But from what I see here I think your intent is to use a combat tracker actively/repeatedly in your gameplay in defiance of the rule... that isn't a demo, that's a exploit against the EULA and is immoral no matter what you tell yourself is right or wrong.
You have just described yourself as an immoral person... so at least we know who we are dealing with.
It seems you cant read.
An immoral person has no morals. I said several times that I do, and that I stick to them, and that they do not change when the rules around me change.
I also said that my morals may be different to yours.
There is no way you can read and comprehend that post you quoted and come out thinking I am immoral, unless you believe your morals are the only valid morals.
That says more about you than it does me.
Also I have not "forced Steven's hand", I have simply informed him of some of the lengths people will go to use a combat tracker, and the history in other games that have taken the same stance he is taking now - both things he was unaware of.
He is then free to make his own decision.
The funny thing is the analogy between that and combat trackers. All I did was provide information, exactly as a combat tracker does for players. He is then free to do with that information as he pleases, as is the case with combat trackers.
If it turns out he makes a decision that he needs to backpedal on in the future, at least he has no one to blame but himself.
A person with no morals... is amoral.. I said you were immoral. I'll wait while you google it.
I'll reiterate then.
Just because I do not conform to your morals, that does not mean I do not conform to a widely accepted set of morals.
As I said earlier, ArenaNet found that more than 50% of players were running combat trackers, even though they were against the rules.
That means that while my morals may be different to yours, they are widely accepted.
You are assuming your morals are the only accepted standard here, which as I said above, says more about you than me.
Naw dude. Your position on this is immoral for sure. Knowingly breaking a EULA is effectively lying to the company that you made an agreement with.
It is very unlikely that the way the combat trackers will work will be against the EULA.
If they are against the EULA, the wording of that EULA would also prevent the use of a calculator to gain an in game advantage, and prevent streamers being able to stream.
They cant just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can call my piece of software a combat monitor, or something. What they have to do is define the characteristics of software they dont want used with the game, and ban those characteristics.
This is why I have been somewhat open in the past about how the combat trackers I am following will work. In order to ban them, the software they would need to ban is video capture and calculation software.
To reiterate, I am not trying to follow your morals, nor am I trying to change them. However, me informing Intrepid of exactly what many thousands of players (tens of thousands, perhaps) will do so that they can make an informed decision well before launch fits very squarely within my moral compass.
You have just described yourself as an immoral person... so at least we know who we are dealing with.
It seems you cant read.
An immoral person has no morals. I said several times that I do, and that I stick to them, and that they do not change when the rules around me change.
I also said that my morals may be different to yours.
There is no way you can read and comprehend that post you quoted and come out thinking I am immoral, unless you believe your morals are the only valid morals.
That says more about you than it does me.
Also I have not "forced Steven's hand", I have simply informed him of some of the lengths people will go to use a combat tracker, and the history in other games that have taken the same stance he is taking now - both things he was unaware of.
He is then free to make his own decision.
The funny thing is the analogy between that and combat trackers. All I did was provide information, exactly as a combat tracker does for players. He is then free to do with that information as he pleases, as is the case with combat trackers.
If it turns out he makes a decision that he needs to backpedal on in the future, at least he has no one to blame but himself.
A person with no morals... is amoral.. I said you were immoral. I'll wait while you google it.
I'll reiterate then.
Just because I do not conform to your morals, that does not mean I do not conform to a widely accepted set of morals.
As I said earlier, ArenaNet found that more than 50% of players were running combat trackers, even though they were against the rules.
That means that while my morals may be different to yours, they are widely accepted.
You are assuming your morals are the only accepted standard here, which as I said above, says more about you than me.
It is not about MY morals, it is the morals/standards (rules) set by the Developers. They can set their rules/standards anyway they would like. And if you do not follow them, you are immoral because you choose not to follow them.
And then by not following them, you argue that the rules need to be changed because no one listens to them anyway... again... great attitude there.
Why do you keep bringing up any game that have trackers allowed in them well after launch? The games were launched without trackers, and they were extremely successful. Then years down the road they let trackers in the game... at which point, most of those games had already started to dwindle in population. Once a game looses steam and starts to slowly dwindle... of course letting things like trackers in the game is fine... what is it gonna hurt? Most everybody who has played the game has played it and is done with it.. letting trackers in does not affect the game the same way at that point, even if people did use them "quietly" before that. GW2 being the worst example for tracker use, because the game was so simple, trackers were not needed.
Anyway, I think we have said everything that has needed to be said. You are either for or against, which is fine by me either way. The fact that you use trackers does not bother me at all.. what does bother me is that you use them when it is clearly against the rules set forth by the game, because your rules, in your head, are better than those set forth for you.
I am done here in this thread when it comes to responding to you. Apparently people are getting tired of hearing us go on about it, and I do not blame them.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The Terms and Conditions were updated in January this year.
Within those terms it states:
"Intrepid reserves the right to terminate this Agreement at any time for any reason, or for no reason, with or without notice to you. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most Intrepid Account suspensions and terminations are the result of violations of this Agreement. In case of minor violations of these rules, Intrepid may provide you with a prior warning and/or suspend your use of the Intrepid Account due to your non-compliance prior to terminating the Agreement or modifying or deleting an Intrepid Account."
"Using exploits, hacks, or third party tools to obtain an unfair advantage against other members of the Community in-Game."
There is a lot more, but in the intention of the terms and conditions appears reasonably clear and coupled with Intrepid reserving the right to suspend/ terminate with or without explanation leaves them in a good position, and those players that choose not to follow whatever rules in a very weak position.
That and using the Epic Easy Anti-Cheat software, they might be off to a good start!
Hope we do not see the likes of third party software, bots, gold sellers and the like!
"Using exploits, hacks, or third party tools to obtain an unfair advantage against other members of the Community in-Game."
This is the part I am sure you think is relevant.
Me using a combat tracker does not break this.
However, if you use the calculator on your computer to work out something that gives you an advantage over another player, that does break this specific wording.
You gained an advantage, and you used a third party tool.
If you are being beaten by a player of a specific class and you go to YouTube looking for a guide on how to beat that class, you are breaking the above.
That clause in the EULA is designed to scare, it isn't written to be expressly enforced.
Indeed it does, as long as you are not hacking, exploiting or using third party tools (includong the like s of calculators, spreadsheets, text editors etc), you are fine.
None of these apply to me, so I am fine.
Very clear.
I wonder if communicating over Discord with people you would be be able to communicate with directly in game counts as an advantage. It is definitely a third party program, and it seems like it is giving you an advantage that the other side dont have unless they also use Discord (or similar), so that is something that should fall squarely under that.
So, according to the consensus here, people that use Discord are immoral. I can actually agree with that
Indeed it does, as long as you are not hacking, exploiting or using third party tools (includong the like s of calculators, spreadsheets, text editors etc), you are fine.
None of these apply to me, so I am fine.
Very clear.
IS is the judge/jury/executioner, not you. If you think this doesn't cover combat trackers, you're just fooling yourself. It's also less about the letter of the law and more about the intent of it that matters in a situation like this.
Indeed it does, as long as you are not hacking, exploiting or using third party tools (includong the like s of calculators, spreadsheets, text editors etc), you are fine.
None of these apply to me, so I am fine.
Very clear.
IS is the judge/jury/executioner, not you. If you think this doesn't cover combat trackers, you're just fooling yourself. It's also less about the letter of the law and more about the intent of it that matters in a situation like this.
It covers combat trackers if they are third party.
It doesn't cover them if they are second party.
Third party covers literally anything that is not made by Intrepid or the person agreeing to the EULA. This means it covers YouTube, internet browsers, Discord, excel, notepad, anything.
According to the letter of the above (which actually is what matters, when it gets down to it), if you use any of those to gain an unfair advantage over another player, you are breaking the EULA.
The question then becomes, what is an unfair advantage?
Comments
Ahahah that one is fantastic
I would say that is the difference between a core mechanic and what is essentially an add-on. So not quite on the same level.
That's as if you were to say you find it odd that some people stop other from complaining about losing your souls in a Soulsborne game, but they were ok with adding a timer or dps meter in it. One is unnecessary to the enjoyment of the content, and the other is a core game mechanic.
As it doesn't affect the core of gameplay, it is fine to be discussed as an added option. But wanting to change the Corruption system, because people are afraid of not being able to gank free of repercussion/afraid somehow people will magically be able to suicide by player in order to corrupt them, is a whole different matter.
Also most people complaining about Corruption are by far people who hope to PvP rampage through the world like in WoW second phase.
With that being said, I wholly agree with this part:
I'll reiterate then.
Just because I do not conform to your morals, that does not mean I do not conform to a widely accepted set of morals.
As I said earlier, ArenaNet found that more than 50% of players were running combat trackers, even though they were against the rules.
That means that while my morals may be different to yours, they are widely accepted.
You are assuming your morals are the only accepted standard here, which as I said above, says more about you than me.
Then why do you keep trying to tell raiders how raids work?
Yea I think this comment invalidates Dygz opinion on this topic. Raiding is too core to a MMOs identity. Dygz did you mean you are not a current raider? Have you been actively involved in competitive raiding (other competitive gameplay in MMOs like rated pvp)? If not I can see very much why you have the position you have, but it's really born out of ignorance as you can't understand how critical combat trackers are for these environments.....
I'd argue a lack of combat trackers will probably increase toxicity more than decrease it for the competitive high end players. Most of us don't use them to put down others, we use them to help each other out to get better so we can win as a team.
Most of the toxic behavior that happen around combat trackers is probably in the pug area.
He is of the opinion that the game is a "family" game, not a child's game, which makes him the MMO equivalent of the creepy guy sitting by himself in the back of the theater watching Toy Story, claiming it is a "family" movie, not a children's movie.
Naw dude. Your position on this is immoral for sure. Knowingly breaking a EULA is effectively lying to the company that you made an agreement with. You are not keeping up your end of the deal.. It's up to IS if they decide to enforce, but they would be 100% in thier right to ban you or take some sort of other action against your account.
As much as I desperately want combat trackers, I would NOT break an agreement to get them. I think your approach to handling the EULA only hurts the position that we are trying for.
I assume in your mind this is some sort of "Steven is so wrong I'll prove him right for his own good" type of situation. sure he's wrong, but that doesn't justify your premeditated decision to break the rules even though you plan to turn yourself in.
Now, if you showed IS how to break the rules, but only as a one-time demo on content that didn't matter, the that has some merit (like a white hat hacker finding an exploit in software). But from what I see here I think your intent is to use a combat tracker actively/repeatedly in your gameplay in defiance of the rule... that isn't a demo, that's a exploit against the EULA and is immoral no matter what you tell yourself is right or wrong.
If they are against the EULA, the wording of that EULA would also prevent the use of a calculator to gain an in game advantage, and prevent streamers being able to stream.
They cant just say "you cant use a combat tracker", because then I can call my piece of software a combat monitor, or something. What they have to do is define the characteristics of software they dont want used with the game, and ban those characteristics.
This is why I have been somewhat open in the past about how the combat trackers I am following will work. In order to ban them, the software they would need to ban is video capture and calculation software.
To reiterate, I am not trying to follow your morals, nor am I trying to change them. However, me informing Intrepid of exactly what many thousands of players (tens of thousands, perhaps) will do so that they can make an informed decision well before launch fits very squarely within my moral compass.
It is not about MY morals, it is the morals/standards (rules) set by the Developers. They can set their rules/standards anyway they would like. And if you do not follow them, you are immoral because you choose not to follow them.
And then by not following them, you argue that the rules need to be changed because no one listens to them anyway... again... great attitude there.
Why do you keep bringing up any game that have trackers allowed in them well after launch? The games were launched without trackers, and they were extremely successful. Then years down the road they let trackers in the game... at which point, most of those games had already started to dwindle in population. Once a game looses steam and starts to slowly dwindle... of course letting things like trackers in the game is fine... what is it gonna hurt? Most everybody who has played the game has played it and is done with it.. letting trackers in does not affect the game the same way at that point, even if people did use them "quietly" before that. GW2 being the worst example for tracker use, because the game was so simple, trackers were not needed.
Anyway, I think we have said everything that has needed to be said. You are either for or against, which is fine by me either way. The fact that you use trackers does not bother me at all.. what does bother me is that you use them when it is clearly against the rules set forth by the game, because your rules, in your head, are better than those set forth for you.
I am done here in this thread when it comes to responding to you. Apparently people are getting tired of hearing us go on about it, and I do not blame them.
Within those terms it states:
"Intrepid reserves the right to terminate this Agreement at any time for any reason, or for no reason, with or without notice to you. For purposes of explanation and not limitation, most Intrepid Account suspensions and terminations are the result of violations of this Agreement. In case of minor violations of these rules, Intrepid may provide you with a prior warning and/or suspend your use of the Intrepid Account due to your non-compliance prior to terminating the Agreement or modifying or deleting an Intrepid Account."
"Using exploits, hacks, or third party tools to obtain an unfair advantage against other members of the Community in-Game."
There is a lot more, but in the intention of the terms and conditions appears reasonably clear and coupled with Intrepid reserving the right to suspend/ terminate with or without explanation leaves them in a good position, and those players that choose not to follow whatever rules in a very weak position.
That and using the Epic Easy Anti-Cheat software, they might be off to a good start!
Hope we do not see the likes of third party software, bots, gold sellers and the like!
Me using a combat tracker does not break this.
However, if you use the calculator on your computer to work out something that gives you an advantage over another player, that does break this specific wording.
You gained an advantage, and you used a third party tool.
If you are being beaten by a player of a specific class and you go to YouTube looking for a guide on how to beat that class, you are breaking the above.
That clause in the EULA is designed to scare, it isn't written to be expressly enforced.
Indeed it does, as long as you are not hacking, exploiting or using third party tools (includong the like s of calculators, spreadsheets, text editors etc), you are fine.
None of these apply to me, so I am fine.
Very clear.
I wonder if communicating over Discord with people you would be be able to communicate with directly in game counts as an advantage. It is definitely a third party program, and it seems like it is giving you an advantage that the other side dont have unless they also use Discord (or similar), so that is something that should fall squarely under that.
So, according to the consensus here, people that use Discord are immoral. I can actually agree with that
IS is the judge/jury/executioner, not you. If you think this doesn't cover combat trackers, you're just fooling yourself. It's also less about the letter of the law and more about the intent of it that matters in a situation like this.
It doesn't cover them if they are second party.
Third party covers literally anything that is not made by Intrepid or the person agreeing to the EULA. This means it covers YouTube, internet browsers, Discord, excel, notepad, anything.
According to the letter of the above (which actually is what matters, when it gets down to it), if you use any of those to gain an unfair advantage over another player, you are breaking the EULA.
The question then becomes, what is an unfair advantage?