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Friendly rivalry and spotting slackers with no dps/hps meters?

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  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Apotos wrote: »
    Is this what happens in high-level dungeons? I haven't noticed anything like that till now. I am on level 60 mqs. I am usually whm. On large pulls I do more damage than the dps cuz of the aoe spam but I have done those dungeons as dps and tank and the other whm that were not so active weren't kicked. In fact, nobody says anything, we just complete the dungeons a little bit slower.

    If someone brings up DPS outside of EX or higher they are a complete sperg. Yes, it happens in pugging. Especially near the start of a patch when people don't have gear and every bit of damage counts.

    You should never see anyone talking about DPS in a 24 man raid, normal mode raid, or dungeon. They are just too easy for anyone to care. The games story can be fully experienced without DPS meters. If you do go into EX or higher expect that people are using meters. The game is worth it. It is currently the number one game I recommend to people who don't care about PvP.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    A few layers of obfuscation on the client side and the only way to track DPS would be to have a program do screen capture, run image detection on the combat log window, and read it in real time. Something that is entirely possible, but not practical.

    Otherwise Ashes will be in the same boat as FFXIV. Where they don't want combat trackers, but it would take too much reworking to prevent combat trackers. Realistically all they have to do is make it so the combat data from the network packets is randomly different every time a client connects, and have some similar obfuscation on the clients memory. If combat trackers can't pull the data from the network traffic or the clients memory. The only thing left is to look at the screen at high speed. This could also be countered by making the combat log invisible in combat. The only thing left to look at would be damage numbers as they pop up from personal attacks, and that would only give you personal DPS.

    If IG really wanted no combat trackers. I think they could do it. They just have to take it seriously.

    but yes. let the salt flow.

    I agree, but with a couple caveats.

    I don't think the game would be able to show damage numbers at all if it's properly obfuscated. More likely the client wouldn't receive any damage information in the first place. And for HP bars, we would only get rough estimates.

    And from a personal standpoint, I don't think I'd like the game as much without floating combat text (even playing casually, with no need for combat trackers). Monster Hunter used to work like that, and it was frustrating having no idea how much damage my individual attacks were doing. I just had to assume that bigger animations did more damage, but really had no idea how effective those attacks were. Especially frustrating because different monster parts had different armor values, and I couldn't always tell if I was hitting the vulnerable ones. The game was massively improved in MH:World with floating damage numbers.

    But I've got one more point that could make those two pointless. And this is just theory, but I don't see why dedicated top-end raiders wouldn't at least try it. Combat trackers can still exist by following what actions players perform, and just simulating the DPS. Eventually, every popular game has it's damage formulas reverse-engineered. And even if damage numbers were non-existent and tooltips were absolutely useless, actions could be tested and documented by hitting the same mob 1000 times and using statistics. (Unless they randomly nerf/buff actions every single patch to screw it up... Actually, I'd prefer they do that without the combat obfuscation, as a solution to stagnant metas, but that's another topic.) Then a combat tracker could use that information to guess our damage close enough for it to be useful. It might not know exactly how many crits you landed each run, but it would know how much damage you SHOULD have done, given the actions you performed. Basically just tracking damage potency (ala FFXIV) instead of the resulting damage.

    If that exists, then the only thing Intrepid can do is obfuscate what actions other players are taking, by having them perform random placeholder animations and not showing any of their damage, buffs, or debuffs. But would they really go that far, just to prevent one specific type of toxicity? It wouldn't stop personal parsing. And people can still harass each other and leave groups if enemies are dying too slow. They just wouldn't be able to callout a specific party member...

    It's basically an arms race, similar to the never-ending battle against hackers/cheaters. Except this arms race is fighting against a tool that a decent portion of the community enjoys. And fighting against it actively sacrifices normal game feedback. It's a waste of dev time for Intrepid to go that hard against combat trackers.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    [
    I am sure you are aware that each game generates it's on type of player.

    Players from GW back in the day had their own priorities, motives and behaviors. I dont know enough about the game to be able to say for sure what they are.

    DDO, however, I can speak to. In relation to other MMO's out there, DDO players are far more interested in a story than anything else. This is similar how players of LotRO are more interested in the lore in general than players from other games.

    Its lastly the players that care about these things going to these games, and partially the game shaping the players that are there.

    What neither of these games have is conflict with other players over basic resources.

    This one element drastically alters the game, which drastically alters how players play the game.

    The closest game we have had in 15+ years to Ashes is Archeage, which is why it is the only appropriate game to look towards to work out what player behavior is likely to be.

    We cant just assume that in a game with no resemblance at all to DDO, that players will play the game the same way DDO players play that game. We also can't go back to something like L2, because that was so long ago and players have changed since then.

    As to Crowfall, Archage had no meta in beta, even though everyone knew what the meta would be the moment the game went live.

    I have played DDO off and on since launch. I pug heavily, and have used the in game voice chat to talk to a lot of people in that game over decades now. I have met very few people in DDO who care about DDOs lore. Most people just care about D&D general lore and want to tell you stories from their table top games, before they want to start talking about DDOs lore. This is all beside the point.

    Your overall point about how their is no competition in DDO is what is important here. This is a big true. In DDO people just try to make the most OP build for the sake of being OP, and pushing reaper as fast and hard as possible.

    I still think that even with a high degree of competition in Ashes. If we don't know what customizations for sure are better due to lack of solid SIMs or DPS meters, but we are theory craft skills and other options to determine that they are within a few percentage points of overall effectiveness. People will feel allowed to choose the skills they want within reason. This to me is way better than having a set meta. Especially in a game that will allow you to choose TT and AC skills.

    People would be pissed it they liked AC and TT was the meta for their class or vice versa. I am not saying to assume that because DDO has no set meta and a high degree of customization. Ashes can have no set meta if it has a high degree of customization. I am saying that it is a valid possible conclusion, and personally think it is entirely possible if skills are well balanced and IG actually prevents meters from working.

    It is also the game I would rather play. Otherwise once again we will get a game that "lets" you make builds, but you really don't...
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    @Leonerdo5

    Well I don't think they would ever get rid of floating text. Thankfully, I like it too. Tracking combat damage with image recognition of floating text is entirely possible. Assuming that is the only way that combat data is able to be parsed in Ashes, and the game is otherwise a encrypted vault. The reality of using floating text would mean that you only get your personal DPS.

    Still they could do things to mitigate image recognition whist still having floating text. Maybe not have the game show auto-attack damage or replacing low damage number attacks with something like the phrase "weak hit". This is not ideal, but if push came to shove, and IG was really trying to defeat combat meters. It is a possible solution.

    You are right though, it could end up being a never ending arms race.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Apotos wrote: »
    Is this what happens in high-level dungeons? I haven't noticed anything like that till now. I am on level 60 mqs. I am usually whm. On large pulls I do more damage than the dps cuz of the aoe spam but I have done those dungeons as dps and tank and the other whm that were not so active weren't kicked. In fact, nobody says anything, we just complete the dungeons a little bit slower.

    If someone brings up DPS outside of EX or higher they are a complete sperg. Yes, it happens in pugging. Especially near the start of a patch when people don't have gear and every bit of damage counts.

    You should never see anyone talking about DPS in a 24 man raid, normal mode raid, or dungeon. They are just too easy for anyone to care. The games story can be fully experienced without DPS meters. If you do go into EX or higher expect that people are using meters. The game is worth it. It is currently the number one game I recommend to people who don't care about PvP.

    Can confirm. The majority of content in FFXIV is casual, and the majority of it's players don't have ACT. All of the story and normal difficulty content, up to and including max level, is not that hard. And anyone who queues up for that content in the Duty Finder, already knows what to expect -- a random collage of players of different skill levels. So no one really gives a shit. They just want their daily roulette bonus without hassle. And generally harassing people about DPS, or kicking them, or abandoning the party, would bring way more hassle that it's worth.

    Thankfully the hard content, for which people are more inclined to use ACT and care about the quality of their party members, is thoroughly separated from the casual stuff. And Extreme is still pretty lenient on DPS checks, so people who are new to hard content can get carried while they're still learning. AND the item level requirements you designate in Party Finder can further separate the elite parties from the tolerant parties. So once people actually start using ACT and potentially kicking underperformers (mostly the later Savage floors), there's not a lot of underperformers to kick. It's all very self-sorting. In other words, new players are given time and space to improve slowly, before they're asked to meet difficult DPS standards.

    Class balance is also really good in FFXIV, so there's almost no bickering about classes, except to avoid duplicates.

    So yeah, DPS meters aren't really a problem in FFXIV, despite them being widespread among top-end players.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    edited March 2021
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I have played DDO off and on since launch. I pug heavily, and have used the in game voice chat to talk to a lot of people in that game over decades now. I have met very few people in DDO who care about DDOs lore.
    I did specifically say DDO players were more interested in a story - it is LotRO players that are interested in lore.

    Stories DDO players care about are sometimes from the game, sometimes not. The thing that the population of that game has above and beyond other games though, is that in general, the players of DDO care more about storytelling.
    I still think that even with a high degree of competition in Ashes. If we don't know what customizations for sure are better due to lack of solid SIMs or DPS meters, but we are theory craft skills and other options to determine that they are within a few percentage points of overall effectiveness.
    But that just isn't human nature.

    Once people get an idea in their head, they will go to extrodinary lengths to maintain that their idea is the correct idea. One need only look at flat earthers for proof of this, but you can also look back through the history of science and religion.

    Even when you have empirical proof of something, people are unwilling to believe it. Attempting to persuade people when you don't have that proof is near impossible.

    I've said it on these forums before, I used to run a combat tracker in Archeage. As such, I was able to see issues with some of the meta builds that others weren't able to see, and I was able to create builds to counter some of those meta builds.

    Rather than seeing me using an off-meta build to destroy a meta class and assuming I had found a better build, I was accused of cheating. Repeatidly. I was quite happy to link the build I was using to anyone that wanted to look at it, but people refused to even look at it because I wasn't winning because of my build, I was obviously winning because I was cheating - at least to them.

    People do not want the things they know to be true to end up not being true, because if one thing they know to be true isn't true, then what else that they know to be true would be next?

    This is why I said earlier that without a combat tracker, the only way the meta in the game will ever change is if Intrepid made drastic changes to abilities - drastic enough that players can easily see that the things they knew to be true are no longer true.

    Even with a combat tracker, changing the meta will take some serious time. But at least it will happen.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    I did specifically say DDO players were more interested in a story - it is LotRO players that are interested in lore.

    Stories DDO players care about are sometimes from the game, sometimes not. The thing that the population of that game has above and beyond other games though, is that in general, the players of DDO care more about storytelling.
    I was using lore and story interchangeably there. The point is I have never seen a DDO player really care about either. They just want more dungeons, loot, and monsters to fight. Still not really relevant to the conversation. DDO is just a item on a list of games where no meters allows for people to want to make their own builds.
    Noaani wrote: »
    But that just isn't human nature.

    Once people get an idea in their head, they will go to extrodinary lengths to maintain that their idea is the correct idea. One need only look at flat earthers for proof of this, but you can also look back through the history of science and religion.

    Even when you have empirical proof of something, people are unwilling to believe it. Attempting to persuade people when you don't have that proof is near impossible.
    You are a glass half empty guy I am betting.
    Noaani wrote: »
    I've said it on these forums before, I used to run a combat tracker in Archeage. As such, I was able to see issues with some of the meta builds that others weren't able to see, and I was able to create builds to counter some of those meta builds.

    Rather than seeing me using an off-meta build to destroy a meta class and assuming I had found a better build, I was accused of cheating. Repeatidly. I was quite happy to link the build I was using to anyone that wanted to look at it, but people refused to even look at it because I wasn't winning because of my build, I was obviously winning because I was cheating - at least to them.

    People do not want the things they know to be true to end up not being true, because if one thing they know to be true isn't true, then what else that they know to be true would be next?

    This is why I said earlier that without a combat tracker, the only way the meta in the game will ever change is if Intrepid made drastic changes to abilities - drastic enough that players can easily see that the things they knew to be true are no longer true.

    Even with a combat tracker, changing the meta will take some serious time. But at least it will happen.

    Just because some people are sheep does not mean we should just open the flood gates to unlimited combat data so that a meta can establish itself faster. There will always be some form of meta soft or hard, but the getting to that meta can be slowed to a pace that is longer than the abilities get updated.

    Classic WOW is a great example of this. Yes people play MMOs better now, but what is a bigger factor in why the return to classic wow was so easy. Why guilds were defeating raids so fast. Was the hyper refined meta that was developed on private servers over a decade. If people knew at launch what they know about classic WOW now, they would have been able to smash the game just as hard. Player skill is not really a factor in classic WOW. It is the difference in time spent refining the meta.

    Ashes could absolutely get in a position where a hard meta is never really discovered, and having a custom build is acceptable. These DPS meter conversations have really opened my eyes to the fact that we don't really get any customization in MMOs anymore. A hard meta breeds meta slaves. A soft meta could allow for acceptance of customization.

    For Ashes I can't agree that DPS meters are important anymore. I don't think PvE will ever be difficult enough to require builds that are optimized by meters. I think in PvP people will just use what ever works consistently. Which does not require meters. Without balls to the wall end-game raids. Meters just go against the design decision to have build customization.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    You are a glass half empty guy I am betting.
    Not at all. If anything, I am a realist.

    Literally the only reason I have the position on this that I do is because of what I saw in Archeage.

    I see nothing at all in Ashes so far that would make me think players will develop the games meta in any other way - and the way I am describing that meta is literally how I watched it unfold (or not unfold, as it were) in that game.

    If Intrepid tell us about something that will materially change the way players look at the games meta, then I will obviously reconsider my current position.

    However, the parts of the game that are key to me in regards to a games meta (complexity and volume of choice, competitive nature of the game, lack of objective assessment of builds), I honestly can't in good faith make the assumption that the games meta will be any different to the only other game I have played with each of these factors.

    On top of the above factors, Ashes also has lesser access to respecs (from what we have been told), which would count against it having a more fluid meta, if anything.

    It would be nice to think that there would be no meta (I am not a fan of them in general, I prefer to assess players individually - hence my want for a combat tracker). The thing is, that is not how tens/hundreds of thousands of players are going to go.

    Remember, a meta isn't something that the developer can make, it is something the players collectively decide on. Every time someone joins your group and is a class you have had good experiences with in the past, if you say that to the player in question, then you are active in creating the games meta.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited March 2021
    The reason people beat Classic WoW's raids so easily was because they were never hard to begin with. Back in Vanilla days like 70% of the playerbase were keyboard turners. They were so unbelievably bad that the current Classic dynamic was how it was supposed to play out originally. Plus internet connections are better. Nothing to do with DPS meters at all.

    DPS meters are objectively anti fun for a majority of every playerbase involved. One of the major themes of this game is going to be player choice. That cannot coexist with DPS meters. The fact that it will enforce a meta faster by having them is just an additional incentive not to have them, but it isn't the main reason. The game is being designed in a way where DPS meters won't serve any purpose even if they did exist.

    It is being confused that DPS meters are useful because other games use them. However, they are only used in those games because of the UI failures of those games. Especially WoW. WoW had a UI that hid so much key information from the player that DPS meters were used just to figure out what the hell was even happening. The animations didn't always really tell you what was happening on their own.

    There are a lot of MMO's that either predated or are as old as WoW that never used DPS meters, because they are fundamentally opposed to what MMO's are for. Needing DPS meters are a failure for the game to tell you the necessary information on it's own. Plus they are always abused to gate the community. There was never a game with DPS meters that were not used in this way.

    If you want a good community with this game. Then DPS meters cannot exist at the same time.

    For spotting Slackers. Well you can do that on an individual level without them. Provided you know enough about the class which you probably won't compared to the person playing it. People aren't so bad at MMO's anymore that they will need to be so closely watched anyway.
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    U.S. East
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    DPS meters are objectively anti fun for a majority of every playerbase involved.
    You can not say they are anti-fun for the majority of the playerbase any more than I can say they are fun for the majority of the player base.

    You're experience may lead you to have seen more people not enjoy them than enjoy them, but my experience has led me to see far more people that enjoy them.
    One of the major themes of this game is going to be player choice. That cannot coexist with DPS meters. The fact that it will enforce a meta faster by having them is just an additional incentive not to have them, but it isn't the main reason. The game is being designed in a way where DPS meters won't serve any purpose even if they did exist.
    Without a combat tracker, once a games meta is decided on by players in general, it won't shift.

    Once people think they know what classes are good, you will not be able to change their mind.
    It is being confused that DPS meters are useful because other games use them. However, they are only used in those games because of the UI failures of those games. Especially WoW. WoW had a UI that hid so much key information from the player that DPS meters were used just to figure out what the hell was even happening. The animations didn't always really tell you what was happening on their own.
    Combat trackers do not do anything to remedy a poorly designed UI, and encounters that rely on animations to tell you what is happening (or telegraphs) belong in childrens games.
    There are a lot of MMO's that either predated or are as old as WoW that never used DPS meters, because they are fundamentally opposed to what MMO's are for.
    No there aren't.

    There are many games out there where people don't think combat trackers are used, but I have yet to come across an MMO that doesn't have a combat tracker available for it if you know where to look.
    Needing DPS meters are a failure for the game to tell you the necessary information on it's own. Plus they are always abused to gate the community. There was never a game with DPS meters that were not used in this way.

    If you want a good community with this game. Then DPS meters cannot exist at the same time.
    I actually don't disagree with this last point. Players shouldn't need a third party combat tracker, because all of that information should be presented to players in the game in the exact way it is presented in a combat tracker - ie, games should have combat trackers built in to them.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    You are a glass half empty guy I am betting.
    Not at all. If anything, I am a realist.
    Half empty or half full then? XD
    Noaani wrote: »
    Literally the only reason I have the position on this that I do is because of what I saw in Archeage.

    I see nothing at all in Ashes so far that would make me think players will develop the games meta in any other way - and the way I am describing that meta is literally how I watched it unfold (or not unfold, as it were) in that game.

    If Intrepid tell us about something that will materially change the way players look at the games meta, then I will obviously reconsider my current position.

    They are telling you about something that will materially change the way platers will look at the games meta.
    Not having combat trackers is that something. If it was not a huge change compared to other MMOs it would not be so hotly debated.
    Noaani wrote: »
    However, the parts of the game that are key to me in regards to a games meta (complexity and volume of choice, competitive nature of the game, lack of objective assessment of builds), I honestly can't in good faith make the assumption that the games meta will be any different to the only other game I have played with each of these factors.

    Based on past conversations with you. The part of the game that is important to you(Meaningful and challenging PvE). Is debatably going to be in the game as you and I understand it. If it is just world bosses with "World boss tier mechanics", Optimized builds based on DPS meters will not be as important.
    Sacrificing DPS for PvP utility will likely be more important.
    Noaani wrote: »
    On top of the above factors, Ashes also has lesser access to respecs (from what we have been told), which would count against it having a more fluid meta, if anything.

    This is true, and I think it is great. It should provide build diversity. Having some build choices be better for PvP and others be better for PvE, Players will have to spec themselves out for PvP, PvE, or any degree of hybridization between the two.

    There will at least be some level of understanding if someone does not have a skill that is good for PvP if they PvE all the time. People will be more accepting of deviations of the meta.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Remember, a meta isn't something that the developer can make, it is something the players collectively decide on. Every time someone joins your group and is a class you have had good experiences with in the past, if you say that to the player in question, then you are active in creating the games meta.

    True, but like I said, they can slow the progression of that meta by limiting the amount of combat information players have.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • I only have a reply for the second part. Since the rest don't really need one.

    There was never an MMO that had choices that were relevant enough to not form a meta, but there was also never an MMO where making money wasn't the primary goal of the game. I'm confident that this game won't have a meta except for the min maxers, but the min maxers probably won't make a big enough difference in this game to throw it into chaos either.

    I'm pretty confident that if there is a problem with this game because of a meta. It will probably get patched out.
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    U.S. East
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    You are a glass half empty guy I am betting.
    Not at all. If anything, I am a realist.
    Half empty or half full then? XD

    Depends on context. If you are filling the glass, then the glass is half full, if you are drinking from the glass, it is half empty.
    They are telling you about something that will materially change the way platers will look at the games meta.
    Not having combat trackers is that something. If it was not a huge change compared to other MMOs it would not be so hotly debated.
    This is materially the same as Archeage. The combat tracker I was using for that game still has single digit total downloads.

    Again, this is why I am comparing to Archeage, all of the key factors are the same.
    Based on past conversations with you. The part of the game that is important to you(Meaningful and challenging PvE). Is debatably going to be in the game as you and I understand it. If it is just world bosses with "World boss tier mechanics", Optimized builds based on DPS meters will not be as important.
    Sacrificing DPS for PvP utility will likely be more important.
    I am fairly sure it won't be in the game either, which has me worried for the game. A game in which PvE generates for the server and PvP redistributes what is generated only works if that PvE can stand on it's own.

    In order for the general idea that Steven has for Ashes, the PvE in the game needs to be among the best that exists. If it is not that good, PvE players won't run it, which leaves PvP players to fight among themselves just like every other PvP focused MMO ever.
    This is true, and I think it is great. It should provide build diversity. Having some build choices be better for PvP and others be better for PvE, Players will have to spec themselves out for PvP, PvE, or any degree of hybridization between the two.

    There will at least be some level of understanding if someone does not have a skill that is good for PvP if they PvE all the time. People will be more accepting of deviations of the meta.
    This is one way of looking at it - another is by looking at the individual player when they decide how to spec their character.

    Almost all players are going to just use a guide. This is how every game works, and is nothing at all unique to Ashes. The fact that a respec isn't easy just means more players are going to want to get it "right" the first time, and are unlikely to even look back at guides to see if the meta has changed.
    True, but like I said, they can slow the progression of that meta by limiting the amount of combat information players have.
    But they aren't limiting the amount of information we have access to - we have combat logs as confirmed by Steven.

    What the lack of combat trackers will do is limit how easy that information is to access for the bulk of the population.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    The reason people beat Classic WoW's raids so easily was because they were never hard to begin with. Back in Vanilla days like 70% of the playerbase were keyboard turners. They were so unbelievably bad that the current Classic dynamic was how it was supposed to play out originally. Plus internet connections are better. Nothing to do with DPS meters at all.

    I said it had to do with the private server community having years to refine the meta for classic, not DPS meters. DPS meters are only a tool that accelerates the establishment of a hard meta.
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    There was never an MMO that had choices that were relevant enough to not form a meta, but there was also never an MMO where making money wasn't the primary goal of the game.

    I am so confused by this statement. Do you have any idea how useless money is in some MMORPGs?
    I can't imagine how my game player experience would be in different in FFXIV if I had unlimited Gil.
    Also money is going to be extremely important in Ashes, nearly the primary goal for many people.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • YuyukoyayYuyukoyay Member
    edited March 2021
    I meant the company making the game, not in the game itself. Money making will actually matter in this game, but it wasn't made just to make money for the company. xD
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    U.S. East
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depends on context. If you are filling the glass, then the glass is half full, if you are drinking from the glass, it is half empty.
    I am pretty sure the the whole point of the question is that you don't know if it was last being filled or emptied. You just encounter a glass at 50% capacity with no other knowledge. Still betting on half empty for you...
    Noaani wrote: »
    This is one way of looking at it - another is by looking at the individual player when they decide how to spec their character.

    Almost all players are going to just use a guide. This is how every game works, and is nothing at all unique to Ashes. The fact that a respec isn't easy just means more players are going to want to get it "right" the first time, and are unlikely to even look back at guides to see if the meta has changed.

    I personally just look at guilds as a starting point. WOW is the exception to this because everything is solved for each content type during PTR practically.

    If we do have meters, which I will admit is far more likely than not. You are right, people are going to want to get the set "right" build that gets them into groups, and never respec. It sucks.

    I still think not having DPS meters would allow for a softer meta where people don't worry as much about other players builds is possible. Unfortunately, I can't think of a game that has no DPS meter at all. Just games where no one uses them. Of the games where no one uses them the meta is generally softer.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    I meant the company making the game, not in the game itself. Money making will actually matter in this game, but it wasn't made just to make money for the company. xD

    Ahh, I read it a few times and did not get that. The first thought in the sentence was about how choices are relevant to the meta so I assumed we were talking about "In game" choices / money.

    Still confused about the whole of this post? Are you saying that you think Ashes will be balanced to the point that min/maxing will be less important?

    If so lets hope for it together.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Yuyukoyay wrote: »
    I meant the company making the game, not in the game itself. Money making will actually matter in this game, but it wasn't made just to make money for the company. xD

    Ahh, I read it a few times and did not get that. The first thought in the sentence was about how choices are relevant to the meta so I assumed we were talking about "In game" choices / money.

    Still confused about the whole of this post? Are you saying that you think Ashes will be balanced to the point that min/maxing will be less important?

    If so lets hope for it together.

    Yep that's more or less exactly what I'm saying. Min/Maxing being out of control is a consequence from not caring. Settling on a lesser product to release it faster. Like when I play Diablo 2 I have a lot of options. There is kind of a meta, but there are so many options for each class that the meta doesn't really matter.

    When you have choices play a role to the extent that this game is planning to then you can't really compare this game to previous MMO's in scope. Since metas partially ruin those game's choices. I think meta will mean a lot less in this game because of difference of development philosophy.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Depends on context. If you are filling the glass, then the glass is half full, if you are drinking from the glass, it is half empty.
    I am pretty sure the the whole point of the question is that you don't know if it was last being filled or emptied. You just encounter a glass at 50% capacity with no other knowledge. Still betting on half empty for you...
    In that specific scenario I would say it is half empty, but only because it is more likely that someone will leave a glass that they are half way through drinking than it is that they would leave a glass while they are half way through filling it.

    On the other hand, if someone just poured enough liquid in to the glass to leave it half full, then it is a half glass of liquid. It is not half full or half empty because under this scenario it was never intended to be full - It was only ever meant to have the amount of liquid in it that it has.

    The volume of the liquid in the glass is less important in that situation than working out why the glass - and it's liquid - are left as they are.

    As I said earlier, a realist. Logic is my guide, nothing more.
    I personally just look at guilds as a starting point.
    Assuming you mean guides here.

    I don't even look at guides - other than writing them.

    Fact is though, most players are not interested in dealing with the complexity of potential class builds in Ashes. People write guides because others use them.

    It is something of a shame you didn't play Archeage. A game with all the same key points Ashes will have in relation to builds, and with a meta that didn't shift at all in 4+ years. Even today, after adding an entire new progression system on top of the level cap, most players still play the same meta, even though it literally makes no sense at all any more.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »
    Assuming you mean guides here.

    I don't even look at guides - other than writing them.

    Fact is though, most players are not interested in dealing with the complexity of potential class builds in Ashes. People write guides because others use them.

    It is something of a shame you didn't play Archeage. A game with all the same key points Ashes will have in relation to builds, and with a meta that didn't shift at all in 4+ years. Even today, after adding an entire new progression system on top of the level cap, most players still play the same meta, even though it literally makes no sense at all any more.

    Yeah, typo. LOL

    I did play a little ArcheAge. Enough to know I did not like it. I remember my friend paying out the nose in the cash shop and trying to tell me that its not P2W when it looked very P2W.

    Still a static hard meta sounds lame. If no one used a meter in ArcheAge and it had such a rigid meta. That is good evidence that not having a DPS meter is not a magic ticket to people accepting out of meta builds, but it is not enough evidence to convince me that no DPS meter wont be helpful in keeping the meta loose.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    If no one used a meter in ArcheAge and it had such a rigid meta. That is good evidence that not having a DPS meter is not a magic ticket to people accepting out of meta builds, but it is not enough evidence to convince me that no DPS meter wont be helpful in keeping the meta loose.
    By itself, it isn't enough for me either.

    If the game had other factors that I could see that would get more people either moving away from the meta, or even attempting to change the meta, then that would be great.

    Problem is, I don't see any. As I've said, I don't see any material difference (in terms of factors that impact how a meta would form) between Ashes and Archeage.

    If all relevant factors are the same, I have to assume the outcome will be the same as well.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Noaani wrote: »

    Problem is, I don't see any. As I've said, I don't see any material difference (in terms of factors that impact how a meta would form) between Ashes and Archeage.

    If all relevant factors are the same, I have to assume the outcome will be the same as well.

    What about the hybrid combat? Another major difference. Assuming they do it as proposed. People will have build diversity based on their preferred playstyle.
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    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • BobzUrUncleBobzUrUncle Member
    edited March 2021
    Just remember that a glass is never any part empty (except in a vacuum). If there is liquid in it part way, the rest is full of air.
    So the glass is always full!!
  • <WoW player 11 years. Dps meters are just abused too often in WoW and toxic players use them as a griefing tool. 3 weeks ago I'm in Warsong Gulch and someone says "Dude the mage is healing more than you are, you suck!" and I"m following and healing our flag carrier, and often that just involves doing nothing because everyone is so involved in a mid-field battle, (That's how I got Ironman achieve, just ran past everyone and nobody cared)

    Perhaps allow people to see their own dps and choose if they want to share it, so guildies could say "hey I see your dps is a tad low, let us help you out with your rotation" But I am imagining an mmorpg of mature players, which most of WoW is not.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »

    Problem is, I don't see any. As I've said, I don't see any material difference (in terms of factors that impact how a meta would form) between Ashes and Archeage.

    If all relevant factors are the same, I have to assume the outcome will be the same as well.

    What about the hybrid combat? Another major difference. Assuming they do it as proposed. People will have build diversity based on their preferred playstyle.
    I don't really see action vs tab being that big of a thing in Ashes, since we know that telegraphed AoE's and such will count as action.

    Even if that were the case, Archeages meta managed to cater to people with different latency rates, so I don't see tab vs action being hard to fit in to the meta.

    The closest thing to a difference between the two is that in Archeage, you can take any class, or any build. As such, there were a total of maybe a dozen builds in the meta. In Ashes, you can only be 1/8th of the - classers/builds. My expectation is that the meta will allow 2 or 3 builds per primary archetype - or 16 - 24 builds in total.
  • Noaani wrote: »
    ... encounters that rely on animations to tell you what is happening (or telegraphs) belong in childrens games.

    Somehow I’m still surprised by the sheer, utter nonsense that gets thrown around on these forums sometimes.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Caeryl wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    ... encounters that rely on animations to tell you what is happening (or telegraphs) belong in childrens games.

    Somehow I’m still surprised by the sheer, utter nonsense that gets thrown around on these forums sometimes.

    If I can show my 5 year old nephew how to raid and avoid fire by simply avoiding the big red circles on the ground, then yeah, it is appropriate for childrens games.

    There are other methods to pass information on to players. While it is perfectly fine to use animations and telegraphs in some situations, if that is what is relied on, as I said above, then yeah, childrens game.
  • Song_WardenSong_Warden Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Its funny we have claims of children's games but only a child would need a combat tracker. Children's games also don't have contestation of kills which Ashes will have. I'm not sure why this thread hasn't been merged into the Mega Thread. It is the same pointless debate.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack
    Neurath wrote: »
    Its funny we have claims of children's games but only a child would need a combat tracker.
    Children wouldn't understand a combat tracker.

    A simple DPS meter maybe, but not a combat tracker.
  • We don't want a dps/hps meter, not specifically. We want a combat tracker, yes dps/hps meters is a part of that but it is also much MUCH more.

    People that look at the dps meters without any context, like the example from @Bum4evr, is just ignorant and should be ignored. No one really cares about how much dps or hps a player does, even though it will encourage people to push their limited and improve, what we really care about is the right dps and the right hps. And what I mean about that is, are the dps/hps a player does on the right target and in the right time. (Talking mostly about pve here)

    When it comes to pvp then dps meter is generally useless and won't help much, atleast when it comes to objective based pvp. Yes, it may show slackers and people afking, but since pvp is so situation based and random shit happens all the time, a combat tracker isn't of much help (atleast I don't think so).
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