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Criminals and how to deal with them, should there be a long term penalty

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Comments

  • It's kinda meant to be a lawless system where the players govern themselves. That said I wouldn't be surprised if a jail like system was planned as a node feature. However, it would need limitations so you can't just say this guy is guilty cuz I don't like him. Evidence would probably need a requirement to be able to send people to jail.
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    U.S. East
  • khitomerkhitomer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Noaani wrote: »
    If you came up with a suggestion that fit the above, and that wasn't so easily exploited, you could perhaps be taken seriously.
    You think rather too much of yourself and your opinions.

    Im not interested in your arrogant dismissals and whether you take me seriously or not.

    Its not your response or opinion Im concerned with, as I already said several times.

    You obviously think your response to me matters, but it doesnt.
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  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    khitomer wrote: »
    As I said, I have no issue with the corruption system, or the considered rationale for its implementation.

    Its there for a very good reason.

    I just think that since there will be instances of "...should the occasion arise, where the benefits outweigh the risk, you have the ability to do so", there ought to be a way for exceptionally talented and determined players to be redeemed if they can best the test.

    Its that simple.

    Devs may not agree, then again they might, if not now, then further down the road.

    Thats all there is to it.

    I think to some extent there is some of that, but it's not in a direct way, nor do I personally believe it would make much sense.

    Let's say you accrue enough corruption to get Bounty Hunters on your trail. You manage to fend em off in a consensual PvP fight (they are always flagged as combattants to corrupted players). Meanwhile you're not just standing still waiting. You're killing mobs and doing what quests you can without access to the local Node.
    Doing so works off your corruption and then you can go back in town and be boisterous about your victories over X amount of Bounty Hunters > Get a reputation > ? > Profit.

    But I would say offering a direct "reward" to remove some of that corruption by fighting off Bounty Hunters, doesn't seem entirely logical, even from a lore/irl perspective.

    That would be like if you committed a murder irl, and the police came after you. You decide to kill the cops and other forces chasing you. And after a number of dead law enforcers, someone goes: "Everyone go home. He killed 20 cops. He's earned his freedom". Wouldn't make much sense would it?

    Another example, in videogames would be something like GTA. Once you get that first star, if you keep causing mayhem to the point of getting 5 stars, you don't really expect the game to lower you to 0 stars because you managed to fight off the army for X amount of time.
    The only way to do so is basically hiding and running away. Which is the most "realistic" scenario for someone on a killing spree not looking to get caught and killed himself.

    Throw in some possible options for exploits and ultimately, while it could be fun, it wouldn't entirely fit the logic of any world with enough law sense to have bounty hunters chase "criminals".
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  • khitomerkhitomer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    What kind of 'direct reward' is there in surviving lol.. aside from not dying and losing your gear?

    Even then you still wont be wearing good gear because of the risk of losing it if you dont survive, which is very high.

    So the only true reward for surviving is being able to say you beat the very tough odds and did it.

    And you would likely only be able to say it once or twice in your entire playing career in AOC.

    If someone tries to exploit being helped by their buds, then other people will see that and know it wasnt a genuine escape.

    I can imagine those who will actively really try to do this will capture their effort on video so they can have proof of a clean escape without exploiting player help.

    Logically speaking, if a player could hypothetically evade all attempts to kill them at peak corruption, then it should not be the case that they remain corrupt until they eventually do die.

    That kind of thing will just lead to corrupted players stashing their gear, letting themselves be killed to get rid of corruption and doing the whole thing all over again.

    There will be zero incentive to attempt a miraculous escape with life and gear intact at all.
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  • Kivek RhuKhanKivek RhuKhan Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Asgerr wrote: »
    khitomer wrote: »
    As I said, I have no issue with the corruption system, or the considered rationale for its implementation.

    Its there for a very good reason.

    I just think that since there will be instances of "...should the occasion arise, where the benefits outweigh the risk, you have the ability to do so", there ought to be a way for exceptionally talented and determined players to be redeemed if they can best the test.

    Its that simple.

    Devs may not agree, then again they might, if not now, then further down the road.

    Thats all there is to it.

    I think to some extent there is some of that, but it's not in a direct way, nor do I personally believe it would make much sense.

    Let's say you accrue enough corruption to get Bounty Hunters on your trail. You manage to fend em off in a consensual PvP fight (they are always flagged as combattants to corrupted players). Meanwhile you're not just standing still waiting. You're killing mobs and doing what quests you can without access to the local Node.
    Doing so works off your corruption and then you can go back in town and be boisterous about your victories over X amount of Bounty Hunters > Get a reputation > ? > Profit.

    But I would say offering a direct "reward" to remove some of that corruption by fighting off Bounty Hunters, doesn't seem entirely logical, even from a lore/irl perspective.

    That would be like if you committed a murder irl, and the police came after you. You decide to kill the cops and other forces chasing you. And after a number of dead law enforcers, someone goes: "Everyone go home. He killed 20 cops. He's earned his freedom". Wouldn't make much sense would it?

    Another example, in videogames would be something like GTA. Once you get that first star, if you keep causing mayhem to the point of getting 5 stars, you don't really expect the game to lower you to 0 stars because you managed to fight off the army for X amount of time.
    The only way to do so is basically hiding and running away. Which is the most "realistic" scenario for someone on a killing spree not looking to get caught and killed himself.

    Throw in some possible options for exploits and ultimately, while it could be fun, it wouldn't entirely fit the logic of any world with enough law sense to have bounty hunters chase "criminals".

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  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    khitomer wrote: »
    What kind of 'direct reward' is there in surviving lol.. aside from not dying and losing your gear?

    Even then you still wont be wearing good gear because of the risk of losing it if you dont survive, which is very high.

    So the only true reward for surviving is being able to say you beat the very tough odds and did it.

    And you would likely only be able to say it once or twice in your entire playing career in AOC.

    If someone tries to exploit being helped by their buds, then other people will see that and know it wasnt a genuine escape.

    I can imagine those who will actively really try to do this will capture their effort on video so they can have proof of a clean escape without exploiting player help.

    Logically speaking, if a player could hypothetically evade all attempts to kill them at peak corruption, then it should not be the case that they remain corrupt until they eventually do die.

    That kind of thing will just lead to corrupted players stashing their gear, letting themselves be killed to get rid of corruption and doing the whole thing all over again.

    There will be zero incentive to attempt a miraculous escape with life and gear intact at all.

    There seems to be some contention on whether or not corrupted players will be able to actually remove their equipment. I think it was on the last livestream where Steven was talking about this issue. He wanted to avoid players just dropping their gear to their friends to avoid losing anything upon death while corrupted.

    We'll see what the tests they conduct on it will leave us with
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    khitomer wrote: »

    Its not your response or opinion Im concerned with, as I already said several times.

    You obviously think your response to me matters, but it doesnt.
    If you think you are going to get Steven, or anyone at Intrepid for that matter, to comment on this, you are wrong.

    If you want them to even look at it seriously, you need to have basically all players on board agreeing that it is a good idea, and that Intrepid wmshould consider it.

    Until you have that, you wont get the opinion you want - and even if we all agree it's a great idea you likely still wont.

    That is why I said you need to work on your idea. If you actually want Intrepids opinion on your idea, you need to get the posters here on board first - and you have not done that.
  • khitomerkhitomer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Asgerr wrote: »
    There seems to be some contention on whether or not corrupted players will be able to actually remove their equipment. I think it was on the last livestream where Steven was talking about this issue. He wanted to avoid players just dropping their gear to their friends to avoid losing anything upon death while corrupted.

    We'll see what the tests they conduct on it will leave us with
    If thats the case then you see how players intending to gain corruption will be even less inclined to wear any gear they wouldnt want to risk losing.
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  • khitomerkhitomer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Noaani wrote: »
    If you think you are going to get Steven, or anyone at Intrepid for that matter, to comment on this, you are wrong.

    If you want them to even look at it seriously, you need to have basically all players on board agreeing that it is a good idea, and that Intrepid wmshould consider it.

    Until you have that, you wont get the opinion you want - and even if we all agree it's a great idea you likely still wont.

    That is why I said you need to work on your idea. If you actually want Intrepids opinion on your idea, you need to get the posters here on board first - and you have not done that.
    For whatever reason, you keep mistaking your opinion about what Ive said as being an objective fact.

    I dont really know what it might take for you to step back from yourself and recognize that your opinions about the opinions of others are merely subjective and are not by any means authoritative statements.
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  • TheHiddenDaggerInnTheHiddenDaggerInn Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    khitomer wrote: »
    What kind of 'direct reward' is there in surviving lol.. aside from not dying and losing your gear?

    Even then you still wont be wearing good gear because of the risk of losing it if you dont survive, which is very high.

    So the only true reward for surviving is being able to say you beat the very tough odds and did it.

    And you would likely only be able to say it once or twice in your entire playing career in AOC.

    If someone tries to exploit being helped by their buds, then other people will see that and know it wasnt a genuine escape.

    I can imagine those who will actively really try to do this will capture their effort on video so they can have proof of a clean escape without exploiting player help.

    Logically speaking, if a player could hypothetically evade all attempts to kill them at peak corruption, then it should not be the case that they remain corrupt until they eventually do die.

    That kind of thing will just lead to corrupted players stashing their gear, letting themselves be killed to get rid of corruption and doing the whole thing all over again.

    There will be zero incentive to attempt a miraculous escape with life and gear intact at all.

    That's the point, there is no reward in surviving. Your reward is you live a few more minutes until the next bounty hunter comes.

    A path of corruption equals a life on the run until justice is served or you're a corpse. Most likely the later.

    They have plenty of PvP where you can be handsomly rewarded with loot while not gaining corruption.

    As far as dropping gear so they don't drop it I propose as soon as a player goes corrupted their gear is bound and cannont be removed until death.
  • khitomerkhitomer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Santanico wrote: »
    That's the point, there is no reward in surviving. Your reward is you live a few more minutes until the next bounty hunter comes.

    A path of corruption equals a life on the run until justice is served or you're a corpse. Most likely the later.

    They have plenty of PvP where you can be handsomly rewarded with loot while not gaining corruption.

    As far as dropping gear so they don't drop it I propose as soon as a player goes corrupted their gear is bound and cannont be removed until death.
    This is where the blurred edge of pvp outside 'the rules' excites a certain type of player, and there are many of those in all mmos with a heavy pvp element.

    Half the fun for these types of players is trying to find ways to survive what are meant to be insurmountable odds, and that and the potential achievement of that is the reward in itself.

    You have a similar dynamic with people who do solo boss kills, etc.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    khitomer wrote: »

    Half the fun for these types of players is trying to find ways to survive what are meant to be insurmountable odds, and that and the potential achievement of that is the reward in itself.

    Then why do they need corruption to be removed?
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    khitomer wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    If you think you are going to get Steven, or anyone at Intrepid for that matter, to comment on this, you are wrong.

    If you want them to even look at it seriously, you need to have basically all players on board agreeing that it is a good idea, and that Intrepid wmshould consider it.

    Until you have that, you wont get the opinion you want - and even if we all agree it's a great idea you likely still wont.

    That is why I said you need to work on your idea. If you actually want Intrepids opinion on your idea, you need to get the posters here on board first - and you have not done that.
    For whatever reason, you keep mistaking your opinion about what Ive said as being an objective fact.

    For what ever reason, you keep confusing me stating my opinion for me stating a fact.
  • khitomerkhitomer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Noaani wrote: »
    Then why do they need corruption to be removed?
    Because thats the near impossible part.

    Because that represents beating the system and the 'law' within the sandbox of the mmo.

    Why is it so hard for you to grasp lol.

    Why do solo raid boss killers do what they do?

    Because its something thats not supposed to be doable or at least extremely hard, and its something most would not/are not be able to do.
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  • khitomerkhitomer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    For what ever reason, you keep confusing me stating my opinion for me stating a fact.
    This is where you remain confused.

    You dont state facts, you state opinions and you often state opinions as facts.

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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    khitomer wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    For what ever reason, you keep confusing me stating my opinion for me stating a fact.
    This is where you remain confused.

    You dont state facts, you state opinions and you often state opinions as facts.

    I state opinions.

    If you read them as fact, that is on you.
    khitomer wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Then why do they need corruption to be removed?
    Because thats the near impossible part.

    Because that represents beating the system and the 'law' within the sandbox of the mmo.

    Why is it so hard for you to grasp lol.

    Why do solo raid boss killers do what they do?

    Because its something thats not supposed to be doable or at least extremely hard, and its something most would not be able to do.

    The near impossible part is staying alive with the debuffs associated with corruption.

    The "beating the system" part is staying alive with those debuffs, ones that are designed to make it hard to stay alive.

    I understand wanting a reward for things, but if the goal you are going for here is an incentive to beat the system, or to do the impossible, removing corruption isnt required at all.

    Any reward for that same act should be fine.
  • khitomerkhitomer Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Noaani wrote: »
    The near impossible part is staying alive with the debuffs associated with corruption.

    The "beating the system" part is staying alive with those debuffs, ones that are designed to make it hard to stay alive.

    I understand wanting a reward for things, but if the goal you are going for here is an incentive to beat the system, or to do the impossible, removing corruption isnt required at all.

    Any reward for that same act should be fine.
    The reward is staying alive when by rights you should not, and any number of other players are trying to ensure that you dont.

    The reward is represented by the fact that you didnt die and got to keep your gear which in nearly every circumstance doesnt happen.

    Its not rocket science to understand - the same reward as staying alive instead of getting killed, and what that represents, as in any other pvp scenario, except that its extra thrilling because its in an area of wpvp that is designed to be an (almost) fail-proof system.

    Corruption represents the imposition of the rules which through skilful and clever use of game mechanics, the rare player should occasionally be allowed to overcome.
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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    khitomer wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    The near impossible part is staying alive with the debuffs associated with corruption.

    The "beating the system" part is staying alive with those debuffs, ones that are designed to make it hard to stay alive.

    I understand wanting a reward for things, but if the goal you are going for here is an incentive to beat the system, or to do the impossible, removing corruption isnt required at all.

    Any reward for that same act should be fine.
    The reward is staying alive when by rights you should not, and any number of other players are trying to ensure that you dont.

    The reward is represented by the fact that you didnt die and got to keep your gear which in nearly every circumstance doesnt happen.

    Its not rocket science to understand - the same reward as staying alive instead of getting killed, and what that represents, as in any other pvp scenario, except that its extra thrilling because its in an area of wpvp that is designed to be an (almost) fail-proof system.

    Corruption represents the imposition of the rules which through skilful and clever use of game mechanics, the rare player should occasionally be allowed to overcome.
    If you stay alive while heavy corrupt, your reward is the fact that you still have your gear, and are free to then go about working that corruption off.

    There is no need for a second reward, which is what your suggestion is.
  • Santanico wrote: »
    That's just 1 thought, I would like to hear you thoughts and if you should be able to commt crimes and have the chance to start a new, or if there should be some lasting consequences.

    Thank you for reading.
    I think this is a good question and I agree with having lasting consequence, if people can game the game they will do it.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    khitomer wrote: »
    Because thats the near impossible part.
    Because that represents beating the system and the 'law' within the sandbox of the mmo.
    Why is it so hard for you to grasp lol.
    Why do solo raid boss killers do what they do?
    Because its something that's not supposed to be doable or at least extremely hard, and its something most would not/are not be able to do.
    The impossible part is that it will be impossible to reset to 0 simply for surviving for a long period of time.
    Ashes is not a sandbox mmorpg. Ashes is a sandpark mmorpg.

    I think it's the reset to 0 that is supposed to be, according to your suggestion, a reward for skillful and clever use of game mechanics, allowing the rare player to overcome the imposition of Corruption.

    But, that is not a reward the devs will offer because the devs do not want to reward being Corrupted. And the devs also do not want to reward skillful use of the Corruption mechanic to stay Corrupted.
  • drclawxdrclawx Member
    I would add a distinction between criminal and corrupted.

    For example, a criminal would be someone who is robbing caravans from your node. What can you do in this
    case? How do you get rid of them?

    I just picture a situation where it becomes cost/time prohibitive to deal with this situation.

    I do like the idea of a blacklist for crafters/freeholds to refuse service to players/guilds. Eventually you may get a bad enough reputation that you cannot buy anything and have to move on.
  • CriminalCupcakeCriminalCupcake Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Im just a Criminal Cupcake...
  • SathragoSathrago Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    drclawx wrote: »
    I would add a distinction between criminal and corrupted.

    For example, a criminal would be someone who is robbing caravans from your node. What can you do in this
    case? How do you get rid of them?

    I just picture a situation where it becomes cost/time prohibitive to deal with this situation.

    I do like the idea of a blacklist for crafters/freeholds to refuse service to players/guilds. Eventually you may get a bad enough reputation that you cannot buy anything and have to move on.

    Good point.

    Another way to put it would be to say that corruption is something that you attain, by choice for players, but otherwise in the lore you can become corrupted just through exposure. Meaning its more like a deadly infection that rots the brain and causes you to act more and more like a sadistic murderer.

    Crime and being a criminal are lesser forms of evil, that are purely through choice. It's something that does not innately change you into a monster, so it's never going to be as bad as corruption. At least in this fantasy setting.

    Corruption is basically what old people think happens when you smoke weed. The gateway drug from Hell.
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    Commissioned at https://fiverr.com/ravenjuu
  • I made a great post about this, but my post randomly needs moderator approval, the post is about registering how muh damage in gold the criminals do. You know that when someone dies it will be required from him some gold to repair his gear, I think Intrepid should register how much losses you inflictec on others.

    And then, bounty hunters in PvP, purple on purple or vs corrupted, should kill them and get some gold in return.
    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/58899/bounty-hunters#latest

    We can't see my post yet, but is one of the first posts.
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
  • AszkalonAszkalon Member, Alpha Two
    ragonrok wrote: »
    I would like the warrior node to offer very significant corruption removal.

    Then the entire server knows exactly where the reds are and it's their choice to take the risk of going there

    Or : just try your best and "hire" many of the PvP-eager People who would become Troublemakers otherwise and create one or a few nice Groups of People for your Node and or Guild, to hunt unsuspecting Caravans with. 😁


    How to deal with longterm Criminals however is something we can not know yet. We must wait and see what Sir Steven and his mighty Crew do around Alpha Two and from there forward.
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    ✓ Occasional Roleplayer
    ✓ Guild is " Balderag's Garde " for now. (German)
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The only answer is RL jail for ingame crimes.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Arya_Yeshe wrote: »
    but my post randomly needs moderator approval

    Yeah, they had to make some forum changes recently cos of some accounts that were taking the piss. Just keep trying.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • I think the answer to this is a reputation system. Completing quests or participating in activities that help the node give positive reputation that provide bonuses which could include things like discounts at shops or services, unlocks certain quest lines/paths to leadership roles or contributes to qualifying for those within the node/node network. Negative rep gained by killing greens or other criminal acts which results in higher prices, eventually losing access to node services, losing citizenship and being declared an enemy of the state and will be attacked by guards on sight at the higher levels.

    This has been vaguely mentioned previously, but I have not heard anything on it recently. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Reputation
  • Arya_YesheArya_Yeshe Member
    edited February 8
    Voeltz wrote: »
    I think the answer to this is a reputation system. Completing quests or participating in activities that help the node give positive reputation that provide bonuses which could include things like discounts at shops or services, unlocks certain quest lines/paths to leadership roles or contributes to qualifying for those within the node/node network. Negative rep gained by killing greens or other criminal acts which results in higher prices, eventually losing access to node services, losing citizenship and being declared an enemy of the state and will be attacked by guards on sight at the higher levels.

    This has been vaguely mentioned previously, but I have not heard anything on it recently. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Reputation

    In EVE, people have to spend some in-game currency and use an item to fix the character status, but if you make way more than you spend then commiting crimes is fine. Just keep farming loot from others and pay the bill later to fix your status.

    So, it doesn't affect at all what people do, their actions are the same at all times, people don't care for finnancial tickles if you can make more than you spend
    PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
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