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Will Dwarf designs get beefier and wider?

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Comments

  • ShergrimShergrim Member
    edited May 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    Highly unlikely they are going to make that significant of a change in the models they have already created.
    If Steven wanted Warhammer style Dwarves, he would have adopted that during the concept art phase.

    it's not even a significant change ..and especially not at this stage of development, also to my knowledge they've already changed the design of the dwarves once because of community feedback so why not again? ultimately steven (and many other devs but especially intrepid) want to please the community ..if that means changing something to do so then they will lol.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Yeah, I think at this point it could just be a afternoon of scaling things around.
    I could be wildly underestimating it though. I still think it would be worth it.

    I am never going to play dwarf myself, but I do know that most people who play dwarf would like to feel badass. I don't think very many people would feel badass with the current dwarfs.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's a significant change because it change the 3D models and how all the armor/costumes fit on those models.
  • ShergrimShergrim Member
    edited May 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's a significant change because it change the 3D models and how all the armor/costumes fit on those models.

    they'd be scaled up alongside the model itself..the change isn't so significant that it will damage the outfit's visuals i'm sure
  • ShergrimShergrim Member
    edited May 2021
    either way, as vhaeyne already stated it would be worth it to make the dwarf playerbase happy..and better to do it early rather than wait a year down the road to do it.
  • I would prefer dwarves more similar to the ones in LOTR and The Hobbit.
    Not a fan of the ones like in WoW that look like they got squished by a boulder in an ACME cartoon.
  • ConradConrad Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would prefer dwarves more similar to the ones in LOTR and The Hobbit.
    Not a fan of the ones like in WoW that look like they got squished by a boulder in an ACME cartoon.

    I agree about the WoW part. Dwarf face look cool in WoW but their bodies are so bad that I wonder why tf they even changed the models from the original used pre WoD. Pre WoD, many models had far better body scaling, now a lot of bodies are super beefy and unproportional
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Shergrim wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's a significant change because it change the 3D models and how all the armor/costumes fit on those models.

    they'd be scaled up alongside the model itself..the change isn't so significant that it will damage the outfit's visuals i'm sure
    Just because you are sure doesn't mean you are right. You are just making an assertion without understanding how the models and the armor/costumes have been crafted.
    The artists would need to take the time to redesign the armor to properly fit the new Dwarf models.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I am never going to play dwarf myself, but I do know that most people who play dwarf would like to feel badass. I don't think very many people would feel badass with the current dwarfs.
    You mean, most people you play with. That's not most people.

    The Ashes devs are mostly from SoE/Daybreak, so we can expect that the general shape of Ashes Dwarves will be more similar to EQ Dwarves than to Warhammer Dwarves - especially since that is what we've seen in the concept art and that's what we see in the current models. The Ashes devs will be confident that these Dwarves are sufficiently badass enough because they've already had 20+ years of people being fine with playing similar models.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    You mean, most people you play with. That's not most people.

    The Ashes devs are mostly from SoE/Daybreak, so we can expect that the general shape of Ashes Dwarves will be more similar to EQ Dwarves than to Warhammer Dwarves - especially since that is what we've seen in the concept art and that's what we see in the current models. The Ashes devs will be confident that these Dwarves are sufficiently badass enough because they've already had 20+ years of people being fine with playing similar models.

    I am sure those DEVs are not with SoE/Daybreak anymore for a reason. People, don't just leave one place to go do the same thing in another place for no reason. I am skeptical that anyone left SoE/Daybreak to come to Intrepid to make the same game they already worked on.

    They are a part of Intrepid now. Which is its own unique beast, trying to do its own unique thing. Just because someone made things early in their career one way, does not mean they will make the same things for the rest of their career. See Pablo Picasso's career for a great example of this. He went through a number of phases. If one person can change a lot in their own career, imagine how that is with a whole group of people doing so together. I don't think the final product is going to be exactly like anyone imagined. That is how collaborative works go.

    I already showed in the thread that the concept does not match the current in game screen shots. They had something that was a compromise between large bulky dwarfs and gnomes. Right now they are full blown gnomes and people don't seem to like it. That is why this thread is here. I don't think this is the first thread complaining about the same thing I have seen.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Shergrim wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's a significant change because it change the 3D models and how all the armor/costumes fit on those models.

    they'd be scaled up alongside the model itself..the change isn't so significant that it will damage the outfit's visuals i'm sure
    Just because you are sure doesn't mean you are right. You are just making an assertion without understanding how the models and the armor/costumes have been crafted.
    The artists would need to take the time to redesign the armor to properly fit the new Dwarf models.

    neither of us know how the process works i guess..but the point still stands..it's worth them doing it.
  • ShergrimShergrim Member
    edited May 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    I am never going to play dwarf myself, but I do know that most people who play dwarf would like to feel badass. I don't think very many people would feel badass with the current dwarfs.
    You mean, most people you play with. That's not most people.

    The Ashes devs are mostly from SoE/Daybreak, so we can expect that the general shape of Ashes Dwarves will be more similar to EQ Dwarves than to Warhammer Dwarves - especially since that is what we've seen in the concept art and that's what we see in the current models. The Ashes devs will be confident that these Dwarves are sufficiently badass enough because they've already had 20+ years of people being fine with playing similar models.

    if you are right and they stay a similar way to how they are now then there's gonna be nobody playing them, simple as that..and that just goes to show you that the devs aren't always right, even after 20+ years, proof is in this thread, everyone in here wants them to be changed (except you for some reason)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    They are mostly not at Daybreak anymore because they got laid off and Steven scooped them up.
    They certainly did not leave Daybreak just because they believe EQ Dwarves don't look badass enough.
    The artists have made concept art and models that are similar in shape to EQ and EQ2 Dwarves.
    If they were drawing inspiration from Warhammer because they feel Warhammer Dwarves are more badass than EQ/EQ2 Dwarves, we would have seen that in the concept art already.

    The Ashes concept art you posted which models Dwarven armor is basically the same as what you show as being in the game. That whole thing has just been scaled down, perhaps... in the concept art, the top of the Dwarf's head appears to be just below the Human's shoulder. While in the 3D model, the top of the Dwarves' heads are about waist high. But the concept art was mostly showing armor detail; not racial height comparisons.
    The Dwarf in the concept art has the same proportions as the 3D model in the video.
    Notice that Ashes concept does not have the same proportions as the image you say you like.

    There are some people who don't like the current appearance. Sure. That is not most people.
    If it were a significant amount of people complaining about the appearance when concept art was first shown and when the 3D models first appeared - maybe. But, the devs have already invested 4+ years in the current vision. They are not going to just switch to Warhammer models.
    And, if they do, you should not expect this game to launch before 2017. Because that means the devs will feature creep everything.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    They are mostly not at Daybreak anymore because they got laid off and Steven scooped them up.
    They certainly did not leave Daybreak just because they believe EQ Dwarves don't look badass enough.
    The artists have made concept art and models that are similar in shape to EQ and EQ2 Dwarves.
    If they were drawing inspiration from Warhammer because they feel Warhammer Dwarves are more badass than EQ/EQ2 Dwarves, we would have seen that in the concept art already.

    There are some people who don't like the current appearance. Sure. That is not most people.
    If it were a significant amount of people complaining about the appearance when concept art was first shown and when the 3D models first appeared - maybe. But, the devs have already invested 4+ years in the current vision. They are not going to just switch to Warhammer models.
    And, if they do, you should not expect this game to launch before 2017. Because that means the devs will feature creep everything.

    i mean it's a fact they ARE more badass, ask any dwarf fan and they'll pick WH 100% of the time, it's not about what the devs think is the best it's about the actual fans and ppl that are gonna play the race think.

    nobody*, nobody likes the current appearance, get it right man. Also i'll mention again that they've changed them once already, and like i said already it doesn't have to be warhammer lol, i'd take mostly any other fantasy dwarf over these gnomes but warhammer does them best.

    you are not even going to be playing a dwarf and yet here you are arguing about how they should look, the game isn't out for a long time, time to find another hobby?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Tons of people have played EQ/EQ2 Dwarves, so... it's not enough of a deal-breaker for the Ashes devs to be concerned. Again, if it were, complaints would have been significant enough long ago that they would have already started showing us changes.

    I'm going to have a Niküa, so...I will be playing a Dwarf.
  • Conrad wrote: »
    The most recent preview of dwarves I can remember in AoC was of those weird Gnomish dwarves. Any idea of their design will get more beefier and "wider"? Ngl, the current dwarves look very lacking for a dwarf

    What dwarves? They're some strange abomination, result of... ekhmm... between halflings and gnomes.

    Same story will straight orcs, I stopped playing WoW after straight orcs, like.. wtf :disappointed:

    It's pre-alpha, so I hope they're just replacements
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Dygz

    Not saying anyone left Daybreak because the dwarfs are not badass enough. That is a bit of a strawman.
    I am saying I don't thing they left Daybreak to come make the same exact thing all over again.

    It is just a scaling issue right now. The dwarfs are too small. If they wanted to address this they absolutely could. I think it would be worth their time to do so. It is already a minority of weirdos that like dwarfs (No offence y'all). Why make a race that is not even super popular worst? It just makes it so that the people that do like Dwarfs want to play Orc instead or something.

    The dwarf armor and flavor is on point, but they look like hobbits in dwarf armor.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Tons of people have played EQ/EQ2 Dwarves, so... it's not enough of a deal-breaker for the Ashes devs to be concerned. Again, if it were, complaints would have been significant enough long ago that they would have already started showing us changes.

    I'm going to have a Niküa, so...I will be playing a Dwarf.

    im guessing because not enough people were around at the time of it's development or it wasn't transparent enough for people to complain about them as those games are super old now, but now..now we can have a say about how we want our race to be and i'll have my say until they do them justice. i'm 100% certain that as a dwarf fan if they're not changed up enough then they'll be one of the least played races (so devs if you're reading take notes pls).

    so you're going to play a dwarf and are ok with how they look ingame currently? so nikua are a completely different type of dwarf or you're playing a female dwarf? those are the only justifications i can think of, and if nikua are different then they should have separate models for both types imo.
  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    @Dygz

    Not saying anyone left Daybreak because the dwarfs are not badass enough. That is a bit of a strawman.
    I am saying I don't thing they left Daybreak to come make the same exact thing all over again.

    It is just a scaling issue right now. The dwarfs are too small. If they wanted to address this they absolutely could. I think it would be worth their time to do so. It is already a minority of weirdos that like dwarfs (No offence y'all). Why make a race that is not even super popular worst? It just makes it so that the people that do like Dwarfs want to play Orc instead or something.

    The dwarf armor and flavor is on point, but they look like hobbits in dwarf armor.

    100% the armour, architecture ect is amazing so far..shame the character models aren't up to parr. (and yes..the weirdo thing checks out)
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It's not a strawman because that is the only meaningful counter-argument to what I said.
    The Daybreak devs know that Dwarves with a similar aesthetic are viable and that there are enough players willing to play Dwarves with those proportions that it's fine for them to use similar proportions if it suits their vision.

    Scaling is not going to make the Dwarves beefier and wider in proportion.
    Scaling is not going to result in Dwarves that look beefy, like the image you say you like.
    Scaling is not going to result in Warhammer-esque proportions.
    The OP argument is not that Dwarves are scaled to be as small as Gnomes rather than as tall as Dwarves.
    The OP argument is that the proportions are off; not that the scaling is too small.
    Scaling is not going to make the Ashes Dwarves beefier.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    It's not a strawman because that is the only meaningful counter-argument to what I said.
    The Daybreak devs know that Dwarves with a similar aesthetic are viable and that there are enough players willing to play Dwarves with those proportions that it's fine for them to use similar proportions if it suits their vision.

    Scaling is not going to make the Dwarves beefier and wider in proportion.
    Scaling is not going to result in Dwarves that look beefy, like the image you say you like.
    Scaling is not going to result in Warhammer-esque proportions.
    The OP argument is not that Dwarves are scaled to be as small as Gnomes rather than as tall as Dwarves.
    The OP argument is that the proportions are off; not that the scaling is too small.
    Scaling is not going to make the Ashes Dwarves beefier.

    show me these players that are willing to play them, i want a word!
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Shergrim wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    It's not a strawman because that is the only meaningful counter-argument to what I said.
    The Daybreak devs know that Dwarves with a similar aesthetic are viable and that there are enough players willing to play Dwarves with those proportions that it's fine for them to use similar proportions if it suits their vision.

    Scaling is not going to make the Dwarves beefier and wider in proportion.
    Scaling is not going to result in Dwarves that look beefy, like the image you say you like.
    Scaling is not going to result in Warhammer-esque proportions.
    The OP argument is not that Dwarves are scaled to be as small as Gnomes rather than as tall as Dwarves.
    The OP argument is that the proportions are off; not that the scaling is too small.
    Scaling is not going to make the Ashes Dwarves beefier.

    show me these players that are willing to play them, i want a word!
    I don't think dwarf was popular in EQ2.
    I would love to see some race statistic for a popular EQ2 server.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Dygz

    Maybe we will get sliders and be able to manually fix the scale/proportions of the dwarfs.

    That would solve all of this.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think we will have some sliders. I don't think the sliders will result in Warhammer proportions.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021

    All Levels 40+ 65+
    Arasai 64,378 7,264 1,882
    Barbarian 155,092 26,498 9,559
    Dark Elf 230,647 42,206 16,004
    Dwarf 76,992 12,306 4,219
    Erudite 108,641 21,458 8,250
    Fae 116,032 16,108 5,170
    Froglok 56,908 7,392 2,602
    Gnome 119,017 21,980 8,113
    Half Elf 157,443 28,906 11,067
    Halfling 38,657 6,819 2,508
    High Elf 177,601 37,970 15,071
    Human 193,984 32,906 12,583
    Iksar 83,892 12,291 4,353
    Kerra 141,841 21,665 7,773
    Ogre 57,369 8,896 3,073
    Ratonga 102,618 18,689 6,988
    Sarnak 25,981 662 56
    Troll 39,978 5,744 2,003
    Wood Elf 176,771 32,524 12,615

    EQ2 2007
  • ShergrimShergrim Member
    edited May 2021
    read up a little on the EQ dwarfs, "The Dwarves are one of the strongest races, and for their height, are extremely well fit and stout" this description does not fit their current AoC models..like at all..and as for those statistics i'm gonna assume it's attributed to the stats of the race or their racial abilities and not the model themselves.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    I think we will have some sliders. I don't think the sliders will result in Warhammer proportions.

    I don't want WH proportions/scale. I just want a little taller and wider.

    If I am reading that population data correctly. Dwarf was not very popular among the EQ2 races. To be fair though I don't think dwarf is that popular in any game.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Shergrim wrote: »
    read up a little on the EQ dwarfs, "The Dwarves are one of the strongest races, and for their height, are extremely well fit and stout" this description does not fit their current AoC models..like at all..and as for those statistics i'm gonna assume it's attributed to the stats of the race or their racial abilities and not the model themselves.
    EQ Dwarves are not as beefy and wide as Warhammer dwarves. You said Warhammer Dwarves are perfect and the devs should take inspiration from the Warhammer Dwarves. It's clear that is not the vision of the Ashes devs.
    Ashes Dwarves might get about as beefy and wide as the EQ/EQ2 Dwarves, sure.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Shergrim wrote: »
    read up a little on the EQ dwarfs, "The Dwarves are one of the strongest races, and for their height, are extremely well fit and stout" this description does not fit their current AoC models..like at all..and as for those statistics i'm gonna assume it's attributed to the stats of the race or their racial abilities and not the model themselves.
    EQ Dwarves are not as beefy and wide as Warhammer dwarves. You said Warhammer Dwarves are perfect and the devs should take inspiration from the Warhammer Dwarves. It's clear that is not the vision of the Ashes devs.
    Ashes Dwarves might get about as beefy and wide as the EQ/EQ2 Dwarves, sure.

    WH dwarfs are a perfect example of what they should be but they don't necessarily have to be that way for me to be satisfied, i'd be ok with LotR or warcrafts style too... really just something that resembles a dwarf and judging from the ingame screenshots they currently do not. seems like they need to re evaluate their vision if that's the case because the current iteration and EQ models aren't dwarfs they're gnomes, simple as.

  • Lord MathisLord Mathis Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Conrad wrote: »
    Sholer wrote: »
    I hope so.

    I like for example the Dwarfs on wow, they are the perfect example of what a dwarf need to be.

    Well for wow at least. Their body is weirdly proportioned compared to normal.
    Better example are probably Warhammer and D&D

    Total War Warhammer 2's dwarfs are so awesome. Belegar Ironhammer specifically.
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