Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Well, Rankin Bass is one artist who does not agree with you.
In Norse myth, the dwarves are mentioned as being short, and unlike the elves who are light/white, the dwarves are blacker than ink.[/quote]
Um. Tolkien's Dwarves are based on Norse myths and Germanic myths and irl Jewish history and culture/language.
Tolkien's Dwarves are short. Yes. So are Ashes Dwarves.
The name Gandalf may be derived from Gandalfr, but I don't recall Gandalf being a Dwarf.
Again, that might indicate that those four specific Dwarves are muscular and have colossal physical strength.
That does not mean that the average Dwarf has are muscular or beefy or have colossal physical strength.
For all we know, their strength is magical, rather than physical.
"They are a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and of benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than things that live by their own life. But they are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will, whatever the tales of Men alleged. For Men of old lusted after their wealth and the work of their hands, and there has been enmity between the races."
---The Return Of The King - Dwarves
I'm not aware of any Dwarf in Tolkien lore who can shape-shift.
As far as I know, while some individual Dwarves may have gained that ability, it is not innate to Tolkien Dwarves.
Is that a Tolkien quote?
You can opine biased views till the cows come home - none of what you shared suggests that Tolkien's Dwarves generally looked more like Warhammer Dwarves than Raskin Bass Dwarves.
Here is Tolkien's sketch of marching Dwarves:
Tolkien did take some inspiration from the all of those details I have shown, Tolkien then made it his own.
One thing to also take into account is the fact that dwarves being masters of the forge, are unlikely to be "slender" either.
Most blacksmiths in the era where things weren't automated were typically muscular and burly men (and women when given the rarer case).
You can argue everything and say: "oh this is just this one character", or "oh all of these depictions of strength etc don't mean shit".
But it seems to me you're the one who's reaching far more than I am.
The closest thing we have to a "slender" depiction of Tolkien Dwarves is this John Howe artwork of Gimli and Legolas:
Although here he just looks like a short human compared to a tall elf. So perhaps not much to go on from.
John Howe and Alan Lee also depicted other dwarves. Here's Thorin:
In this early sketch of a dwarf I see it as more square-ish in shape than the ones in Ashes:
They all seem much wider than the ones in Ashes. However their head and facial proportions are decidedly more human than what we have in game.
gonna be rolling a human at this rate, ppl are really happy with that being a dwarf? bloody hell..
Again, in a world of magic, we don't know whether Dwarves merely have natural strength or whether they have supernatural strength. Supernatural strength does not necessarily require burly muscles.
I don't consider the Ashes Dwarves to be slender.
I've been playing a female Dwarf in Ashes for months. The model hasn't changed. And I would not call the model slender by any means. Rather the model is tiny in height.
I don't agree that the drawing of the Dwarf atop the ram is much more squarish than Ashes Dwarves.
And, I don't agree that all the Dwarves in the drawing below that one is much more squarish than Ashes Dwarves. I don't think we have the same concept of what a square is.
The image below that doesn't really show enough detail to be meaningful, but looks closer to Ashes Dwarves than Warhammer Dwarves.
Not that any of it matters because the fact still remains that there are many different depictions of Dwarves - even Tolkien's Dwarves - and they don't all look squarish and don't all look like Warhammer Dwarves.
So...it's going to be up to the vision of the devs. And you will just have to hope that you can tweak the physique enough with sliders in character create to get a physique you like.
Sadly tho, sometimes the vision of the devs is wrong tho. There is a reason many games go down the shitters. Devs care more about their vision than what the players want. In this case, proper dwarves is what people want, not a gnome
And we are not allowed to share visuals from our Alpha One previews - else, I would share screenshots.
I'm talking about what I've seen in the game and the concept art.
Expect the Ashes Dwarves to be similar to what's shown in the Ashes concept art. Especially the most recent Dwarven concept art.
I don't consider the Dwarves in Ashes concept art to be slender. And I don't consider the Dwarves I've played in the Alpha tests this year (or last year Dec?) to be slender.
Also, the narrator of the vid does not say that Dwarves feel better than what he had seen before. He says he was aware of the complaints that the Dwarves are these too skinny, not very dwarfy-looking guys but they don't seem that way in the character creator.
Which is basically the same thing I've been saying.
Also, seems like what Vhayene has said is that he's fine with the current proportions, but he feels that the Dwarves should be scaled up (proportionally) to be taller than what they currently are.
As in head height should be just below the chest rather than waist-high when compared to Humans.
see this looks good! so where did they go wrong..
The pixel count...pixels cost more than crayons.
time to put all that bloody alpha 1 money to good use then ey!?
Especially with those "pauldrons" they look way to narrow at the waist for my taste. And it appears I may not be the only one to have a similar reaction
They just look so condensed like small humans
i almost have to zoom in just to see it!
No a dwarf is a dwarf is a dwarf. Small humans are small humans. And hobbits are their own thing as much as gnomes and halflings in some material.
I may refer you back to what the origins of the dwarves were in mythology, and they were never meant to be small humans. They were humanoid but not humans.
The shape of a Dwarf is that of a condensed Human.
And how that is depicted in just about any setting will be somewhere along the spectrum between Snow White and the Seven Dwarves and Warhammer.
The shape of a condensed Human is humanoid. Yes.
Yes a dwarf is a small humanoid but if that's all it was people would just play small humans, the appeal of dwarves is that they are not a carbon copy of humans but small. The problem many people have is that we have even seen that in ashes artwork and they look barrel-chested and heavy, unlike the in-game models.
Again, look at EQ and EQ2 Dwarves.
The only thing I've been saying is... expect the in-game Dwarves to look like the Ashes concept art.
And the push back has been that the Ashes concept art does not look beefy and wide enough.
If you think the in-game models should look like the Ashes concept art, we agree.
And...I believe that the Ashes concept art for Dwarves looks like condensed Humans.
(As do all depictions of Dwarves)
Not to sound mean but dwarves in EQ were coming out at time where the wasn't much other representation and people didn't have much other choice.
Now, nearly what? 20 years later? People have experienced more types of dwarves, and they prefer the non EQ type, and more the Warhammer type.
I mean, literally you're the only one arguing for them to stay the same, because some game 20 years ago did it, and because magic (as most of your arguments on other threads)
It's all nice and good to have an opinion, but to erase other's opinions because you believe they're ok, is just silly.
Dwarves as they are right now in Ashes, don't represent people's desires for what a dwarf should be.
It is not you role to gatekeep suggestions for the Intrepid devs. It is not your game to make. And if a multitude of people agree they should be changed, you can present your opinion and say "I like them" and let others voice their opinions.
Mostly because no matter what volume of proof others may provide, you're just dismissing them with "nah they just tiny and magic"
That's the problem. So far the in game dwarves don't look like the concept art
You can see that same spectrum for the physicality range of Dwarves in the Peter Jackson film The Hobbit.
You appear to be referencing Peter Jackson's vision of what "traditional Dwarves are in his LOTR film - but his vision is clearly a spectrum which includes the variations depicted in the Jackson Hobbit film.
You simply try to dismiss any version that doesn't fit your bias.
EQ also has Halflings and Gnomes and there are clear differences between those three races in EQ and in EQ2. We don't know what Halflings look like in the Ashes setting. Nor do we know what Gnomes look like in the Ashes setting.
You're saying people have experienced more types of Dwarves but the only type of Dwarf that any MMORPG dev creates should be Warhammer Dwarves. That is absurd.
Some people prefer Warhammer style Dwarves, sure. And thousands of people are fine with EQ and EQ2 style Dwarves. You say I'm the only one arguing for the Ashes Dwarves to stay as they are, but that is not true.
Richie SH, in the video YOU POSTED, states, "I know a lot of people had complaints originally that the Dwarves are these too-skinny, not very dwarfy-looking guys but they don't seem that way in the character creator."
Again - that is the exact same thing I have been saying. Why did you post his video if you don't agree with him?
I have done nothing to erase anyone's opinion.
What I have done is proven that the depiction of Dwarves is on a spectrum.
The final arbitrator of how Dwarves will appear in the game is Steven and the devs.
What I said is...don't expect the devs to change the appearance of Ashes Dwarves to look like Warhammer Dwarves. Expect the Ashes Dwarves to look like the most recent concept art.
It is highly unlikely that there will be a significant change in the appearance of Ashes Dwarves because it is way too late in development for that. If they keep making changes like that, don't expect the game to release before 2017. Sliders in character create may help you get closer to what you want.
You keep whining that the devs must change the model to be more in-line with Warhammer DWarves because Warhammer Dwarves are perfection. You get to have that opinion. I'm not erasing that opinion.
I'm just stating that your opinion is highly unlikely to have any effect on how the devs depict their Dwarves.
As they are depicted, the Ashes Dwarves do represent people's desired for what a Dwarf would be. They don't represent everyone's desires for what a Dwarf should be. And, they aren't intended to.
I have no power to gatekeep anything. Steven is the gatekeeper.
I haven't said anything like, "they're just tiny and magic".
What I said is that the depiction of Dwarves is on a spectrum from Snow White's Seven Dwarves to Warhammer. And most depictions are going to fall somewhere in-between.
You are the one being dismissive by demanding that Warhammer Dwarves are the only models the Ashes devs should use. You dismiss the suggestion that sliders might get you closer to what you envision. And you dismiss the opinion of the commentator YOU posted, who states that the Dwarves currently in the character creator don't look too skinny and appear to be dwarfy-looking.
That is the epitome of silly.
If this change for the better didn't occur in 2019, don't expect it to happen in 2021.
And... if the devs are going to take the time to make a significant change like this at such a late stage in development (in terms of years), don't expect the game to release before 2027.
You don't truly know if change is even required because you don't know how the sliders in the final character create might change your perspective.
U.S. East