Greetings, glorious testers!
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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
"true king of eight-peaks!"
that's fine buddy, at the end of the day nobody is gonna play as a gnome
Orc instead?
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
even worse, and worse than that an elf..the only other option for me would be a human
This image is blowing my mind. The scaling and proportions on those dwarfs look much better. Never seen this multi-race version of this concept art.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
We need a different model for dwarves.
I like many of the options presented here. I'd also be happy with some of the Witcher 3 proportions.
They look closer to the current Ashes models, whilst still improving on it, and looking a bit more badass (even if less muscular and wide than the Warhammer ones).
The proportions are going to remain the same as they've been since 2017.
There is a chance that the devs would scale up to make them not so diminutive, but the proportions will remain the same.
Character create will have some sliders, but they will be fairly limited. Don't expect sliders to allow you to create a Warhammer-style Dwarf. The proportions allowed are not going to warp the armor constraints significantly.
Expect Dwarves to look like the concept art they show us.
Unfortunately you have no numbers to back up that this is a minority complaint. Nor I that it's a majority.
Seeing as this is of a more substantial impact than the whole "Rename Tank" debate; and that it's not the first time, nor place it's been brought up (here, reddit and the discord), it would be a beneficial thing for the game to evaluate this feedback.
Through some polls, Dunir seemed to place either 3rd or 4th in desired race, and Nikua mostly dead last.
Considering how little they've been shown, it appears people are picking Dunir mostly out of lore/aesthetic. And of those, a number have voice a desire to have them be more Wharhammery.
Were I Stever I'd make an official poll and evaluate the demand for a change (so long as it doesn't affect the schedule for other things)
And if it was a major complaint, there should have been enough complaint to change the proportions based on the concept art from the Kickstarter all the way to before they completed the 3D models. And, after they revealed the 3D models, there should have been enough uproar for them to adjust the concept art such that we see a significant change in proportions.
None of that has happened in 4+ years of public development. Who says the devs have not evaluated the feedback. Sometimes the answer is no. Especially if the negative feedback is a minority.
You aren't Steven. And you aren't a game dev.
I don't need a poll to tell me how game development works.
They have said they want BDO or higher character customization. I made a thread a while back where I ranked all of the MMO character creators. BDO was not the highest on that tier list. For me PSO2 was higher.
Here is ODD example of why PSO2 had a great character creator:
As you can see the sliders in PSO2 give a lot of control over the scale and proportions of a model. Ashes does not have to be this advanced, but some good sliders would allow everyone to have the dwarf of their dreams.
Which is also a double edged sword because some of yall's dreams out there are my nightmares.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
I mean.... neither are you?
Nor are you Steven's mouthpiece?
Nor is any of us subject to your decision making for what changes are evaluated for the game. We don't have to tell you anything about anything, because ultimately, who decides isn't you.
And whilst I have agreed with you on other points, on other topics, about respecting Steven's vision, those have been more related to Core Mechanics. Not visuals (I count cosmetics as a core mechanic at this point).
I don't get why the need to get this anal about a decently sizeable complaint.
If you do have those numbers, it would then be beneficial to the argument if you could present them.
What percentage of people, who are actually following the game, and have seen the dwarves, want them changed, and how many don't?
Mind you, I'm saying: don't want them changed, not "I don't mind how they are right now, but wouldn't mind if they got changed either".
So far, there have been a number of players raising these exact same issues with the current dwarves, and it's been across all platforms.
The fact that it hasn't happened yet, is not an indicator of them never doing it, nor that they have struck gold with their current design for them. After all, we have yet to see an entire race, and they are constantly improving the character models of those we have.
To me, all this could mean, is that they currently focused on the Core Mechanics. Any and all racial models and aesthetic changes, are likely to come later.
For when that time comes, I think it is a very normal thing to keep these type of comments on the dwarven design in mind.
If they then decide to ignore it and carry on with the current design. So be it. We aren't demanding a change, else we boycott the game. We're raising a fairly widespread opinion on them. Were they to change it, I don't think it would harm anyone's perception of the game.
Unless you're telling me, you would not play a dwarf or the game if they ever changed it to a more WH looking one.
I personally think that Dwarves are surprisingly diminutive, but that is different than not being beefy and wide enough. I also don't agree that their proportions make them look like Gnomes. They don't have oversized feet, so I also don't agree that they look like Hobbits.
Having played a bunch of different fantasy RPGs in the last 40 years, I've seen a bunch of different visions of Dwarf for a bunch of different settings (same for book covers). I do not have just one vision of what a Dwarf must look like.
Also... one of the mantras I've been proclaiming for over a decade is... The Maasai and Dinka are the largest people on Earth, but Giants are always depicted as beefy, white Europeans in fantasy RPGs. Why not have some Giants that are depicted as thin, black Africans?
I don't need Dwarves to look "badass". I just need them to be recognizable as Dwarves.
Which basically means short in stature due to short "long" bones compared to Humans.
I don't prefer EQ/EQ2 Dwarves over any other depiction of Dwarves. Rather, I acknowledge that thousands of EQ/EQ2 players found those depictions to be acceptable. Enough so that they were not drastically changed for EQNext concept art. I would be fine with Warhammer proportion Dwarves if the Ashes devs had chosen to go in that direction at the start - or even if they had been inspired to change to that concept a couple of years ago. At this point, they've invested too much time in the current vision. They need to be spending time prepping to reveal Orcs and Tulnar rather than wasting time revamping Dwarves and Dwarven armor sets that have already been created.
I think BDO level character creation will mostly be for facial features.
I think BDO armor mostly warps to fit any race.
In Ashes, the armor sets are designed differently for each race... specifically to fit the proportions of each race. So... we should expect limitations on how drastically sliders will change racial body proportions.
I think sliders may get us to what Vhayene considers badass. I don't think they will get us to Warhammer "perfection".
how we have gone from the lord of the rings styled dwarfs (from which all other fantasy dwarves sprung) to that abomination is beyond me, warhammer and other settings have expanded on them whereas other settings designs (EQ for example) have regressed heavily.
i don't want the dwarfs to just be seen as a dwarf i want to be seen as the rolling boulders in full plate they were always supposed to be, not these pink goblins your boomer ass has been accustomed to over the past decades. Those that disagree have no right to be calling themselves dwarf fans, they are, by nature, supposed to be badasses..what else is the point in playing one if not for that?
not gonna see a proud race butchered because Dygz here wants to play a gnome posing as a dwarf!
1: I don't know what images of Dwarves you think sprang from LOTR. Fantasy Dwarves have been around way longer than LOTR. LOTR did not have many images of Dwarves prior to the films. Classic RPG images of Dwarves sprang from D&D.
2: Tolkien was a man of his times who relied heavily on stereotypes. Even D&D moved away from Tolkien-esque stereotypes with 3rd Edition.
3: EQ/EQ2 and D&D and Pathfinder have also expanded on Dwarves. Just because the direction you prefer is beefy and wide does not mean that is the only correct vision of what Dwarves look like. Snow White's seven Dwarves are not all beefy and wide. And, while there are many gamers who will want MMORPG Dwarves to all be bred for battle and forge, rather than appearing diminutive and cute, many more Role-Players won't find diminutive and cute to be a deal-breaker.
There is no Fantasy RPG where Dwarves are only rolling boulders in full plate.
4: A Fantasy MMORPG is going to have a wide variety of preferences in aesthetics, as well as playstyles. The devs are going to be the final arbiters of what is implemented. At some point, they have to settle on a vision and stick with it. And that needs to be sooner rather than later.
They are not going to be able to please everyone with any feature. There will always be players who complain that they prefer a feature some other way.
We do know they were somewhat barrel chested, as Gimli expressed discomfort when trying to don the chainmail in the battle of the Hornburg.
If one were to choose a Tolkien dwarven design, it would at least be thicker than what we have seen so far in Ashes.
Tolkien took inspiration from a lot of Norse mythology and literature (Gandalf is derived from Gandalfr a dwarf in norse mythology for example, and he was the one if not he foremost scholar on Beowulf).
In Norse myth, the dwarves are mentioned as being short, and unlike the elves who are light/white, the dwarves are blacker than ink.
Four dwarves, Austri, Vestri, Nordri, and Sudri (“East,” “West,” “North,” and “South”) hold aloft the four corners of the sky, evidencing their colossal strength.
This would reinforce the brutish appearance for dwarves
They also are shapeshifters? Like Fafnir who turned into a dragon... so that's a thing.
They are also said to be "usually ugly".
In Germanic tradition in the middle ages, they are said to sometimes look childish, but also to be like Knights in some instances.
Alberich, in the Ring of the Nibelung (a clear inspiration for Tolkien's LOTR) is described as having the strength of 12 men.
I would personally opine that a lither dwarf as we have them, doesn't fit properly with this description.
So considering Tolkien took from all of this.... they are more likely Warhammery in looks in LOTR, yet also from before Tolkien.
the first movie released in 2001 20 years ago - EQ2 in 2004. besides the books have been out far longer and are what truly brought fantasy into the mainstream, the dwarves descriptions in those don't exactly work for some of the dwarves i've seen recently.
am not sure why the "dwarves" in snow white are called that when they're pretty much the embodiment of gnomes LOL. who wants to play a cute dwarf besides like 5 RPer's? the majority of dwarf players play them for their more traditional traits.
"There is no Fantasy RPG where Dwarves are only rolling boulders in full plate." not sure why you'd think that? slap on a full armour set onto a warhammer/lotro/warcraft dwarf and you have just that.
yes they are the final arbiters and that is why so many games die and get boycotted ect. it comes down to 99% of the dwarf players want to be badass and play an actual dwarf character and intrepid should absolutely pay heed to that else they'll be upsetting a sizeable chunk of their players.
i imagine tolkien turning in his grave upon witnessing this representation ..this is probably just to make it more appealing to kids
So, I'm sharing a professional opinion from a game dev perspective; not a personal opinion from a gamer perspective.
Still doesn't mean you're Steven. Nor that you're a dev at Intrepid.
What you did at Activision may not fit the philosophy that Intrepid seek to implement. So whilst you do have a considerable insight, I wouldn't discount everyone else's opinion and suggestions for it.