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Will Dwarf designs get beefier and wider?

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Comments

  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    However, he has the absolute right to believe that only Tolkien-Warhammer like dwarves look cool. So that doesn't "entirely" invalidate his point either.
    The problem with this is that this argument is essentially saying that you already think a thing you haven't seen can't be cool, because this argument is saying that only one thing does.

    This is clearly not a good argument.

    If you don't like the look of the Dwarves now, cool. Tell Intrepid specifically what it is you don't like, rather than just "they don't look like the Dwarves in other IP's", which really is basically all I have seen so far.

    If you can't find something you specifically don't like about them other than that they are not Tolkien Dwarves, then I'm not sure what to say other than that this isn't a Tolkien IP.

    I think a number of us have made the exact details of why we don't like them in other threads.

    I (We?) don't like the narrow waist (and most of the rest), excessively diminutive stature, the fact that they do front tuck flips when jumping etc.

    What I prefer: a more stocky and stout build, more muscular, perhaps a little taller (about navel height compared to humans perhaps?), heavier in their movements, etc.
    This really is just a preference for Tolkienesque Dwarves, rather than there being an actual issue with the current Dwarves.

    Basically, it is saying you don't want Intrepid to do their own thing - rather than finding actual issues with what it is they are doing.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    However, he has the absolute right to believe that only Tolkien-Warhammer like dwarves look cool. So that doesn't "entirely" invalidate his point either.
    The problem with this is that this argument is essentially saying that you already think a thing you haven't seen can't be cool, because this argument is saying that only one thing does.

    This is clearly not a good argument.

    If you don't like the look of the Dwarves now, cool. Tell Intrepid specifically what it is you don't like, rather than just "they don't look like the Dwarves in other IP's", which really is basically all I have seen so far.

    If you can't find something you specifically don't like about them other than that they are not Tolkien Dwarves, then I'm not sure what to say other than that this isn't a Tolkien IP.

    I think a number of us have made the exact details of why we don't like them in other threads.

    I (We?) don't like the narrow waist (and most of the rest), excessively diminutive stature, the fact that they do front tuck flips when jumping etc.

    What I prefer: a more stocky and stout build, more muscular, perhaps a little taller (about navel height compared to humans perhaps?), heavier in their movements, etc.
    This really is just a preference for Tolkienesque Dwarves, rather than there being an actual issue with the current Dwarves.

    Basically, it is saying you don't want Intrepid to do their own thing - rather than finding actual issues with what it is they are doing.

    * Applause *

    You finally get it. It's all about the fact that we prefer Intrepid to make them look like me and many prefer them to look. If a majority of people prefer that, then it's worth considering the change.

    Remember the time everyone freaked out about the mage doing a spin when he threw a fireball?
    Was there any actual problem with it? Or did people just prefer more grounded animations?

    They did go ahead and change those animations, based entirely on people's preference rather than any actual issue......

    Double standards much?
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    To copy paste the point I made in a different thread:

    Remember the time everyone freaked out about the mage doing a spin when he threw a fireball?
    Was there any actual problem with it? Or did people just prefer more grounded animations?

    They did go ahead and change those animations, based entirely on people's preference rather than any actual issue......

    Did they waste resources? Did they delay the game because they change those animations? Are we doomed?

    So yeah: double standards much?
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    It is my understanding, and happy to be corrected, that there is a body slider for tweaking the visuals planned in the future for character creation but not in action now.

    So I would assume that the physiques that are available now are likely either place holders or quite possibly mid range generic physiques and not near reflective of the final planned intended upper and lower extremes.

    The only other reference I have seen is the artwork and that is a little loose and non-binding to tell where it might end up.

    So would it not be plausible that these issues of tweaking a little height up/down and the endomorphic change be simply addressed when there will be a capacity to possibly tweak a few physique things here and there through the character creation?

    As for animation.. on the fence on that one.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    akabear wrote: »
    It is my understanding, and happy to be corrected, that there is a body slider for tweaking the visuals planned in the future for character creation but not in action now.

    So I would assume that the physiques that are available now are likely either place holders or quite possibly mid range generic physiques and not near reflective of the final planned intended upper and lower extremes.

    The only other reference I have seen is the artwork and that is a little loose and non-binding to tell where it might end up.

    So would it not be plausible that these issues of tweaking a little height up/down and the endomorphic change be simply addressed when there will be a capacity to possibly tweak a few physique things here and there through the character creation?

    As for animation.. on the fence on that one.

    While it is very possible, I'd rather err on the side of caution and have the base model be more like the more stereotypical ones
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Is this influenced by other IPs such as Tolkien's books, Warhammer, The Witcher, etc? Yep. I like those dwarves better.
    Influenced by and exactly alike are not the same thing.
    Yes. The Dünir Dwarves are heavily influenced by Tolkien, D&D, Pathfinder, etc...but that "et cetera" also includes EQ and the franchises with Dwarves you don't like. The Dünir Dwarves aren't only influenced by Tolkien's books, Warhammer, The Witcher, etc. The Dünir Dwarves are not intended to be 100% Middle Earth Dwarves.
    There will be differences...and yeah...one of those differences could be the flip.
    The environment of Middle Earth is not the same as the environment of Verra or Sanctus... so there is no valid logic in thinking that just because Dwarves don't flip on Middle Earth, Dünir Dwarves don't flip on Verra and Sanctus.

    That doesn't mean you shouldn't ask to have the flip removed - it just means that's not a valid reason for having the flip removed.
    If anything less than 100% Middle Earth Dwarves is a deal-breaker for you, you should probably play a Middle Earth game rather than a game that stems from a homebrew of Pathfinder and is designed primarily by former EQ/EQ2 devs.


    Asgerr wrote: »
    If as we get more votes, the majority switches to keeping them the same, then so be it. Otherwise, it may be a statistic worth taking into account for the dev team.
    Player consensus is not going to drive major changes to the appearance of the Dünir. What's going to drive major changes is how much making the changes negatively affects the release schedule.

    As Akabar says...we're in Alpha.
    You personally only like a relatively small range of influences.
    But, most people - most followers of Ashes - are probably fine with the Dwarves in EQ, the Narnia movies, Snow White and the Huntsman, Willow and Baldur's Gate 3. (The Dwarves in Baldur's Gate 3 are awesome! And stout.)
    The Dünir we end up with will most likely still have a base model similar to the Dunir armor concept art - which is a composite of all the franchises you listed, including the ones you don't like. It's also a composite of all of the physiques of the Dwarves depicted in the Peter Jackson films for The Hobbit and LOTR.
    I think at launch, the sliders in character creator will allow us to create characters like Balin and possibly Bilfur.
    I think Bombur's girth is more than the sliders will allow because that's going to warp the armor assets too much.
    It's possible the devs will make the base models of the Dünir somewhat beefier and wider than what we see in the Dünir armor concept art, but it's highly unlikely that they will make the base model as wide as the Dwarves in Warhammer Online. (And highly unlikely sliders will be able to create a Dünir that is as wide as the WO Dwarves.)

    12-dwarves-hobbit.jpg


  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Asgerr wrote: »
    So you would vote for them to be bulkier and more like the WoW/LOTR/Warhammer ones, but refuse to vote.... out of contrarianism?
    There is no option on that poll that represents my position.
    Hence, I'm not voting.
  • I kinda like the current model and the proportions of the dwarfs.
    6wtxguK.jpg
    Aren't we all sinners?
  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    Each player has the choice to play a dwarf or not. Got a lot of people who are clearly stating they would rather not play a dwarf given the current look absent any player customizations to allow players to provide a character they prefer to play. Some might even opt out of the game completely. Ignore the customer at your own risk.

    I think the Hawaiian dwarves satisfy the niche of players who want to play a dwarf unlike the traditional dwarves. These may be a minority of players who want to play dwarves. Don’t know. Perhaps that’s a different poll.

    And let me guess, the criticism of this poll is probably coming from some who don’t even want to play a dwarf. Just trolling dwarven players and ultimately leading to fewer players playing dwarves.

    The dwarven archetype is bigger than the game. While you can add details to tailor the style to accommodate a certain aesthetic, if you stray too far from the standard archetype you will lose people. I would say the same is true of elves and orcs. If all of the elves were Keebler elves, I am quite sure a large contingent of elven players would object.
  • I kinda like the current model and the proportions of the dwarfs.

    guarantee you're not playing one

  • And let me guess, the criticism of this poll is probably coming from some who don’t even want to play a dwarf. Just trolling dwarven players and ultimately leading to fewer players playing dwarves.

    this.

  • ShergrimShergrim Member
    edited May 2021
    people play dwarves for their more traditional traits and none other!.. those being to be a big bearded wide boi that'll knock their enemies down like bowling pins and anyone who says different is either trolling, hates dwarves (elves) or wasn't gonna roll one in the first place, it's so obvious and yet some ppl will still argue it, baffling!
  • MarcetMarcet Member
    It's confirmed, elves are the ones voting for no changes. So they can laugh more at us. We won't let this happen.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    And let me guess, the criticism of this poll is probably coming from some who don’t even want to play a dwarf. Just trolling dwarven players and ultimately leading to fewer players playing dwarves.
    I've been playing a Dwarf in the Alpha since December and I'm the main critic of the poll - not a critic that a poll is taking place, but a critic of the skewed, poorly-worded and biased options in the poll.
    I also plan to play a Dwarf after launch.


    The dwarven archetype is bigger than the game. While you can add details to tailor the style to accommodate a certain aesthetic, if you stray too far from the standard archetype you will lose people. I would say the same is true of elves and orcs. If all of the elves were Keebler elves, I am quite sure a large contingent of elven players would object.
    I dunno what - "bigger than the game" actually means. I also don't know what you mean by "standard archetype". What the people who made the poll state is the standard archetype is "shaped like a boulder, beefy and wide and wearing plate mail - like in the Jackson LOTR films."
    But, when I look at pics of those Dwarves in the Jackson LOTR films, that is not the standard depiction of Dwarves even in those films. And the concept art for the Dünir armor set I posted seems to fit within the range of physiques depicted in those films.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Shergrim wrote: »
    people play dwarves for their more traditional traits and none other!.. those being to be a big bearded wide boi that'll knock their enemies down like bowling pins.
    Yep! Just like Nori, Ori, Fili and Kili!!!
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Marcet wrote: »
    It's confirmed, elves are the ones voting for no changes. So they can laugh more at us. We won't let this happen.



    Elf main here, voted for change.

    A rising tide lifts all boats.
    TVMenSP.png
    If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Shergrim wrote: »
    people play dwarves for their more traditional traits and none other!.. those being to be a big bearded wide boi that'll knock their enemies down like bowling pins.
    Yep! Just like Nori, Ori, Fili and Kili!!!

    bombur makes up for that lot! LOL
  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    The culture of medieval fantasy is bigger than the game. Pretty simple concept.

    That culture shares standards. While there are definitely variations, there are still standards in the traits people have come to expect.

    Some will reference the Peter Jackson LOTR interpretation of dwarves as it’s one of the latest mass media representations available. And I doubt there is much disagreement that some of those dwarves are pushing against the standard pretty hard. In fact that was one of the major criticisms of the Hobbit besides three movies and dwarf-elf romance.

    Am I talking about an objective standard? No. Each person has a standard visualization of what a dwarf is based on their overall exposure of the genre. That standard can change over time as new interpretations may be viewed as an improvement upon previous impressions. The aggregate of these individual standards can itself be considered a collective standard, and is most commonly what the term standard in this application refers to. Perhaps an easier way to conceptualize would be the dragon standard, which is much more broadly defined and subject to a wider range of unique interpretations. The dwarven standard has much less wiggle room, and that might just be because there are not a lot of accepted successful variant representations. And they all seem to have a Scottish accent for whatever reason.

    My main point is for Intrepid to provide the option for the players to create the look of their dwarves that can meet their players’ expectations. Muscular, wide, fat, rough and tumble looking are accurate descriptions that have been applied to the dwarven archetype for decades. Comparable to powerlifters rather than bodybuilders.

    My vote was to change the Dunir but keep the other variation as is to provide something newer than the standard archetype. Beach combing dwarves wouldn’t be working the muscles too hard and you need a clean shave to get a good tan. I will be disappointed, however, if they don’t surf. Although at the same time Samoans come to mind and they aren’t exactly lightweights. So keep those options open to all kinds of possibilities.

    The Dunir don’t need to be carbon copies of dwarves from other games, so there is room for some aesthetics in the art - to a point. If Intrepid already has the character creation options on the body types to fit this expectation, then they are all set. If there is only one option for the expected body type then you will either have a lot of disappointed players or all of the Dunir will look the same.

    I have played dwarves as mains or alts since forever. I personally would not say that I would never play a dwarf in this game if they look more like children than dwarves, but I might consider another race that’s less of a break from the standard or just have a harder time referring to them as dwarves or opt for the beach dwarf variety depending on what they end up looking like.
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    However, he has the absolute right to believe that only Tolkien-Warhammer like dwarves look cool. So that doesn't "entirely" invalidate his point either.
    The problem with this is that this argument is essentially saying that you already think a thing you haven't seen can't be cool, because this argument is saying that only one thing does.

    This is clearly not a good argument.

    If you don't like the look of the Dwarves now, cool. Tell Intrepid specifically what it is you don't like, rather than just "they don't look like the Dwarves in other IP's", which really is basically all I have seen so far.

    If you can't find something you specifically don't like about them other than that they are not Tolkien Dwarves, then I'm not sure what to say other than that this isn't a Tolkien IP.

    I think a number of us have made the exact details of why we don't like them in other threads.

    I (We?) don't like the narrow waist (and most of the rest), excessively diminutive stature, the fact that they do front tuck flips when jumping etc.

    What I prefer: a more stocky and stout build, more muscular, perhaps a little taller (about navel height compared to humans perhaps?), heavier in their movements, etc.
    This really is just a preference for Tolkienesque Dwarves, rather than there being an actual issue with the current Dwarves.

    Basically, it is saying you don't want Intrepid to do their own thing - rather than finding actual issues with what it is they are doing.

    * Applause *

    You finally get it. It's all about the fact that we prefer Intrepid to make them look like me and many prefer them to look.

    What do you mean "you finally get it"?

    I said in my first post in this thread that all a few people here are asking for are Toslkienesque Dwarves. I "got it" before I bothered commenting - something I wish others on these forums would do sometimes.

    Just because I understand that you want Dwarves to look like every other IP's dwarves, that doesnt mean I agree that it is a good position to hold. You are - as I said earlier - trying to make Verra the same as every other fantasy IP out there, and this is something Steven specifically doeant want.

    Basically, you are trying to limit the creative freedom Intrepid can have with their IP, and I dont much like that.

    Now, if you had an actual reason other than "some of us prefer", then we have a totally different discussion on our hands. Thing is, you dont.

    All you have are some personal preferences.
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    Dygz wrote: »
    You personally only like a relatively small range of influences.
    But, most people - most followers of Ashes - are probably fine with the Dwarves in EQ, the Narnia movies, Snow White and the Huntsman, Willow and Baldur's Gate 3. (The Dwarves in Baldur's Gate 3 are awesome!

    Again, you keep saying this, yet offer no proof.

    As they say, your feelings and opinions care not for facts. If people vote in your direction. Then cool, I have been proven wrong and we can move forward with that acknowledgement in mind and keep the dwarves as we have them. I know of a number of players who'll never touch that race, but ultimately who cares right?
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    Dygz wrote: »
    Not a critic that a poll is taking place, but a critic of the skewed, poorly-worded and biased options in the poll.
    I also plan to play a Dwarf after launch.


    You also keep saying this but no one here seems to agree with you either.

    The question is very straight, not leading and doesn't divide every possible answer that is in favor of changing the base model into smaller and smaller portions which ultimately lead to no change as no answer is clear (unlike what you proposed).

    And again, you're fee to make your own poll if mine oh so terrible.

    As the poll is presented, it is straight and honest about the question. Offers an option to be indifferent. Offers an option to alter only one type of dwarf. And offers an option to say you prefer the current one.

    You not liking the result presented thus far, doesn't make it skewed and poorly worded. I would imagine you'd be here teabagging people if the results were flipped and most people were voting No.

    Sig-ult-2.png
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited May 2021
    The problem I have is that this


    ylg7ad82zgg51.jpg

    does not look like this

    3mxUcTt.png
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I get that feeling every time I see a cosmetic turned into pixels though. Sometimes you just have to accept mediocre looking pixels in comparison to artistic impressions. It's why I've stopped buying cosmetics. I also voted to change both dwarves.
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    Noaani wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    Asgerr wrote: »
    However, he has the absolute right to believe that only Tolkien-Warhammer like dwarves look cool. So that doesn't "entirely" invalidate his point either.
    The problem with this is that this argument is essentially saying that you already think a thing you haven't seen can't be cool, because this argument is saying that only one thing does.

    This is clearly not a good argument.

    If you don't like the look of the Dwarves now, cool. Tell Intrepid specifically what it is you don't like, rather than just "they don't look like the Dwarves in other IP's", which really is basically all I have seen so far.

    If you can't find something you specifically don't like about them other than that they are not Tolkien Dwarves, then I'm not sure what to say other than that this isn't a Tolkien IP.

    I think a number of us have made the exact details of why we don't like them in other threads.

    I (We?) don't like the narrow waist (and most of the rest), excessively diminutive stature, the fact that they do front tuck flips when jumping etc.

    What I prefer: a more stocky and stout build, more muscular, perhaps a little taller (about navel height compared to humans perhaps?), heavier in their movements, etc.
    This really is just a preference for Tolkienesque Dwarves, rather than there being an actual issue with the current Dwarves.

    Basically, it is saying you don't want Intrepid to do their own thing - rather than finding actual issues with what it is they are doing.

    * Applause *

    You finally get it. It's all about the fact that we prefer Intrepid to make them look like me and many prefer them to look.

    What do you mean "you finally get it"?

    I said in my first post in this thread that all a few people here are asking for are Toslkienesque Dwarves. I "got it" before I bothered commenting - something I wish others on these forums would do sometimes.

    Just because I understand that you want Dwarves to look like every other IP's dwarves, that doesnt mean I agree that it is a good position to hold. You are - as I said earlier - trying to make Verra the same as every other fantasy IP out there, and this is something Steven specifically doeant want.

    Basically, you are trying to limit the creative freedom Intrepid can have with their IP, and I dont much like that.

    Now, if you had an actual reason other than "some of us prefer", then we have a totally different discussion on our hands. Thing is, you dont.

    All you have are some personal preferences.

    Yes. Exactly. Personal preferences matter Nooani. People play everything they play in an MMO out of sheer and pure preference.

    Oh perhaps you play only what is optimal in every sense, and thus negate any option for personal preference (like your argument about how you would only want to play with people who will only pick the best class combinations regardless of everything else).

    The whole people clamoring for no flips when casting was also sheer and pure personal preference. And yet here we are, with Intrepid having changed it, and that was without any concrete numbers to substantiate it (although I forget if we voted on a poll for that)

    So yes, my personal opinion, as a future player, does matter. If Steven didn't want to have the game be like any other IP, he wouldn't have straight up based it on an IP ie. Pathfinder.

    Your argument is a bad as you claim mine to be. Only difference is, mine is actually shared by more people.

    All I can do to seek change is create this poll, and hope it gets noticed and that Intrepid considers altering the models. If they don't want to, then so be it, but it seems obvious a number of players will never play dwarves because of how they look.

    Although I suppose if we can meme on Tulnar, we can meme on dwarves forever too
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    Nagash wrote: »
    The problem I have is that this


    ylg7ad82zgg51.jpg

    does not look like this

    3mxUcTt.png

    Yep. If we want to go at it from a biomechanical standpoint: broad shoulder like that, with short legs like a dwarf has, and the narrow waist they current display, Dwarves would constantly tip over.

    As they are now, they are taking human proportions and scaling them down. Except that wouldn't work well if they were actual flesh and blood.

    I'm sure Dygz can argue about "Magic" solving every problem with this until the heat death of the universe, but if you want them to make any sense, they need much broader hips and chunkier legs and torso, if they hope to ever be able to walk and have a good center of balance.
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The dwarf we have now looked like the child
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • SongcallerSongcaller Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Is that a Dunir armour set with a Nikua picture beneath too?
    2a3b8ichz0pd.gif
  • AsgerrAsgerr Member, Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Is that a Dunir armour set with a Nikua picture beneath too?

    As they are both currently the same character models, that is a valid comparison between concept art and 3D model
    Sig-ult-2.png
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Neurath wrote: »
    Is that a Dunir armour set with a Nikua picture beneath too?

    It is
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    There was not an option for me so I'm not voting for myself...

    You might want to tone down your blatant narcissism there Dygz.

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