Uncommon SenseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Well I just looked at pathfinder and EQ2 dwarfs and they all seem cookie cutter mine shaft beardy boys to me.
I am basing this opinion on intrepids own Dunir Lore aka Stevens Lore. Stoic and Stout...does not pertain to nimble and acrobatic.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
Stout does not preclude being nimble and acrobatic.
Stoic has no bearing on being nimble and acrobatic.
Uncommon SenseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
What is it with people linking semi naked people flipping once. 25 fat guys flipping...Wheres the epic beard and full plate armor carrying a battle axe flipping 1000x times video clips...
Just because its a fantasy setting doesn't mean the lore and mechanics shouldn't adhere to some resemblance of reality to cement immersion.
I already acknowledged where i feel the flipping is fine the Nikua can flip in every direction if the lore values make it seem appropriate (which it could).
But don't try to play this off as breaking the mold in design...Testing purposes fine.
But my feedback is the front flip jump animation on the Dunir is unappropriated and off putting.
5
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
You wrote: "Stoic and Stout...does not pertain to nimble and acrobatic."
And I demonstrated that people can be nimble, acrobatic and stout.
Not all Dwarves are stout and wear plate armor.
why would a dwarf even do a flip in the first place? what even is the purpose? sure as hell isn't an advantage in combat even for elves who are renowned for their agility..it's all just nonesense.
IF a dwarf could even do a flip in the first place or would even want to..they'd most likely view them as some wazzock elf trick and not bother.
imagine seeing a dwarf training gymnastics to be able to do a flip.. honestly what in grungni's name is this dude smoking.
4
Uncommon SenseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So Dygz, now you are using tolkienisms...What's it going to be?
Well all of Steven Dunir are stout and stoic shaped by the mountains and stone...Intrepids words not mine.
Suggesting that once they leave the mines of the mountains of generational environmental adaption and evolution that's they'll be like "hey i can flip now...so I'm going to every time I jump" Is a dumb lore premise.
As Shergim suggested, Even if they could why would would they? Surely they are to proud and firm for such things.
Steven invited the community to engage in discussions during the development.
Anything people decide to pass comment on is valid feedback, including the stockiness of Dwarves or their impractical immersion breaking ability to flip wearing heavy armor.
Steven will decide what to do with that feedback, not us.
Ultimately we will get what Steven wants to give us, but we at least have the opportunity to point out our preferences and hope that he agrees.
It's fine to break the traditional format, but there is such a thing as too much deviation.
To the point where you break the foundation which made the fantasy work in the first place.
Dunir should keep mostly in touch with traditional tolkien dwarves and let the Nikua be the outlier.
Well all of Steven Dünir are stout and stoic shaped by the mountains and stone...Intrepids words not mine.
Post a dev quote that states all Dünir are stout and stoic.
Again, stout does not preclude doing flips. Stoic has no bearing on doing flips.
We don't even know yet if Dünir are intended to do flips at launch - for all we know it's just a test for Niküa.
We can be sure that there will be room for player characters to do flips in the Underground.
If it turns out that all Dünir do flips when they jump it will likely be because all Dünir find that to be fun and/or that they all believe it aids their jumping, regardless of whether it truly aids their jumping.
Tons of players jump their characters while they're running simply because they like to make them jump while running. Doesn't have to have a practical reason.
The thing about having a short and dense body is actually good to do backflips. Having said this, I prefer if they make craters on the ground after jumping than doing backflips and seeming so light. The cool thing about dwarves is how strong, badass, weighty and the metaphoric rocks they are. Elves remind me more of feathers, light and floaty, but not dwarves.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Yeah, a few of the dudes doing flips in that video above land fairly well, but a lot of them land hard.
I definitely do not like the added animations to the jumping. I believe it was elf that jumped up and threw their shoulder into the air. It's just way over the top and better time could be spent on skill animations.
0
NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2021
Reminds me of dawn of war 3 flips
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
Pathfinder = D&D 3.5 plus extras to sell books. Pathfinder 2.0 generally sucked, in my opinion, but I digress.
Steven’s home brew dwarves are a derivative/departure from Pathfinder dwarves.
D&D dwarves were a direct lift from Tolkien. Gary indicated so, if we need creator references. Tim Trask is still around should you need more direct evidence (he was Gary’s editor). Tim might find flipping dwarves hysterical.
So Steven’s dwarves are essentially a one off from Tolkien, which is why many players are expressing their opinions.
Perhaps these are the rare flipping dwarves who defy expectations, mostly player expectations.
I say the above assuming the Verra dwarves are really based on his Pathfinder dwarves since I have no first hand knowledge of that actually being the case. Point was to show how Pathfinder dwarves and Tolkien dwarves are essentially the same. But with added splat books and broken feats.
1
Uncommon SenseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Just reading the Dunir lore flavor text implies a race of stalwart miners and blacksmiths, Stone and metal.
Trying to justify the flipping by flipping the terminology to square peg round hole the scenario to me seems nonsensical.
The Dunir are stereotype Tolkienesk dwarves and resemble all other fantasy derivatives They are a literal stone foundation to what many interpret and expect dwarfs to be.
Deviating seems unwise.
As far as I am concerned the acrobatics do not befit the dunir and is actually disrespectful to their core values.
That's just my interpretation, but I doubt I am alone in this sentiment.
I Hope Intrepid realizes this...
It could just be alpha mechanics testing...
Some of those guys are not fat, that is muscle built that aids sustaining the back for lifting heavy weight. There seems to be a misconception that being health means not having a belly, a healthy person has that kind of belly if they lift heavy objects on a daily basics and it isn't for far.
1
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Everybody can flip, we agree on that. But why have dwarves as the main flippers? If you don't want to make elves flip, then make no one flip.
EDIT: Maybe everybody flips and im a bit lost because I didn't played the alpha.
I have only been playing a Dwarf, so I don't know if every race flips while jumping, but...
When I'm playing, it generally makes me feel like I'm traveling more distance - it's adding extra power that gives me greater distance than I would get if I just did a regular jump.
As in - if I did a normal jump - I would only cover about half the distance because of my short stature. But, the somersault indicates a more powerful jump that allows me to cover the same distance a Human would wih a regular Human jump.
I have only been playing a Dwarf, so I don't know if every race flips while jumping, but...
When I'm playing, it generally makes me feel like I'm traveling more distance - it's adding extra power that gives me greater distance than I would get if I just did a regular jump.
As in - if I did a normal jump - I would only cover about half the distance because of my short stature. But, the somersault indicates a more powerful jump that allows me to cover the same distance a Human would wih a regular Human jump.
Sounds like the illusion of speed that small races have with they have the same walk speed and jump height as other taller races in the same game. I have played many halflings, gnomes, and tarutaru in my day and the speed difference is always noticeable when you switch from a larger alt.
Elves jump seemed normal. I did not try the lowly human yet.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
2
ThexBlackxKnightMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Do we really need any race to flip around while jumping? I am trying to get away from World of Warcraft.
Okay. I change my opinion. I want dwarves to do flips.
My minds eye can't tell if that is EQ1 or EQ2. I think I remember both games looking the same, it has been so long.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
0
Uncommon SenseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So a 20 year Easter egg ability is now default is it...
Looks more like a dodge roll tumble to me like a heavy stone getting pushed over.
Not a jump tuck flip.
Same devs as EQ Next/Landmark no?
The out fringes of obscure gaming history still don't mesh the Concept art and lore of Intrepid's Dunir and what the Alpha test currently provides, it just does not add up.
System metric testing disclosure aside. That was the primary aim of the test.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
My minds eye can't tell if that is EQ1 or EQ2. I think I remember both games looking the same, it has been so long.
It's EQ1.
The way I had remembered the visuals of EQ1 was very different than when I watched some newbies play it back in 2014.
EQ1 is much more low poly than EQ2. But, both compared to today...well, yeah, might as well be the same.
Comments
I am basing this opinion on intrepids own Dunir Lore aka Stevens Lore. Stoic and Stout...does not pertain to nimble and acrobatic.
Stoic has no bearing on being nimble and acrobatic.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Just because its a fantasy setting doesn't mean the lore and mechanics shouldn't adhere to some resemblance of reality to cement immersion.
I already acknowledged where i feel the flipping is fine the Nikua can flip in every direction if the lore values make it seem appropriate (which it could).
But don't try to play this off as breaking the mold in design...Testing purposes fine.
But my feedback is the front flip jump animation on the Dunir is unappropriated and off putting.
And I demonstrated that people can be nimble, acrobatic and stout.
Not all Dwarves are stout and wear plate armor.
IF a dwarf could even do a flip in the first place or would even want to..they'd most likely view them as some wazzock elf trick and not bother.
imagine seeing a dwarf training gymnastics to be able to do a flip.. honestly what in grungni's name is this dude smoking.
Well all of Steven Dunir are stout and stoic shaped by the mountains and stone...Intrepids words not mine.
Suggesting that once they leave the mines of the mountains of generational environmental adaption and evolution that's they'll be like "hey i can flip now...so I'm going to every time I jump" Is a dumb lore premise.
As Shergim suggested, Even if they could why would would they? Surely they are to proud and firm for such things.
Anything people decide to pass comment on is valid feedback, including the stockiness of Dwarves or their impractical immersion breaking ability to flip wearing heavy armor.
Steven will decide what to do with that feedback, not us.
Ultimately we will get what Steven wants to give us, but we at least have the opportunity to point out our preferences and hope that he agrees.
To the point where you break the foundation which made the fantasy work in the first place.
Dunir should keep mostly in touch with traditional tolkien dwarves and let the Nikua be the outlier.
Not really. So far they followed the WoW path pretty well including the addition of dinosaurs which don't fit the world they are trying to build.
It's more a case of a "hey let's do this and this cuz reasons" situation.
Again, stout does not preclude doing flips. Stoic has no bearing on doing flips.
We don't even know yet if Dünir are intended to do flips at launch - for all we know it's just a test for Niküa.
We can be sure that there will be room for player characters to do flips in the Underground.
If it turns out that all Dünir do flips when they jump it will likely be because all Dünir find that to be fun and/or that they all believe it aids their jumping, regardless of whether it truly aids their jumping.
Tons of players jump their characters while they're running simply because they like to make them jump while running. Doesn't have to have a practical reason.
Steven’s home brew dwarves are a derivative/departure from Pathfinder dwarves.
D&D dwarves were a direct lift from Tolkien. Gary indicated so, if we need creator references. Tim Trask is still around should you need more direct evidence (he was Gary’s editor). Tim might find flipping dwarves hysterical.
So Steven’s dwarves are essentially a one off from Tolkien, which is why many players are expressing their opinions.
Perhaps these are the rare flipping dwarves who defy expectations, mostly player expectations.
I say the above assuming the Verra dwarves are really based on his Pathfinder dwarves since I have no first hand knowledge of that actually being the case. Point was to show how Pathfinder dwarves and Tolkien dwarves are essentially the same. But with added splat books and broken feats.
Trying to justify the flipping by flipping the terminology to square peg round hole the scenario to me seems nonsensical.
The Dunir are stereotype Tolkienesk dwarves and resemble all other fantasy derivatives They are a literal stone foundation to what many interpret and expect dwarfs to be.
Deviating seems unwise.
As far as I am concerned the acrobatics do not befit the dunir and is actually disrespectful to their core values.
That's just my interpretation, but I doubt I am alone in this sentiment.
I Hope Intrepid realizes this...
It could just be alpha mechanics testing...
Just tester feedback.
But they shouldn't be the ones showcasing it all the time, like they are the most agile race of them all.
Everybody can flip, we agree on that. But why have dwarves as the main flippers? If you don't want to make elves flip, then make no one flip.
EDIT: Maybe everybody flips and im a bit lost because I didn't played the alpha.
Some of those guys are not fat, that is muscle built that aids sustaining the back for lifting heavy weight. There seems to be a misconception that being health means not having a belly, a healthy person has that kind of belly if they lift heavy objects on a daily basics and it isn't for far.
When I'm playing, it generally makes me feel like I'm traveling more distance - it's adding extra power that gives me greater distance than I would get if I just did a regular jump.
As in - if I did a normal jump - I would only cover about half the distance because of my short stature. But, the somersault indicates a more powerful jump that allows me to cover the same distance a Human would wih a regular Human jump.
Sounds like the illusion of speed that small races have with they have the same walk speed and jump height as other taller races in the same game. I have played many halflings, gnomes, and tarutaru in my day and the speed difference is always noticeable when you switch from a larger alt.
Elves jump seemed normal. I did not try the lowly human yet.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Okay. I change my opinion. I want dwarves to do flips.
My minds eye can't tell if that is EQ1 or EQ2. I think I remember both games looking the same, it has been so long.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Looks more like a dodge roll tumble to me like a heavy stone getting pushed over.
Not a jump tuck flip.
Same devs as EQ Next/Landmark no?
The out fringes of obscure gaming history still don't mesh the Concept art and lore of Intrepid's Dunir and what the Alpha test currently provides, it just does not add up.
System metric testing disclosure aside. That was the primary aim of the test.
The way I had remembered the visuals of EQ1 was very different than when I watched some newbies play it back in 2014.
EQ1 is much more low poly than EQ2. But, both compared to today...well, yeah, might as well be the same.