You have 9 primary skills.
U get a subclass.
U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills.
The end.
Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway.
As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available.
Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills.
This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.
Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.
I keep asking whether that is true or not for the live streams and haven't gotten an answer yet
Also:
Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]
I'm still going to stand by I hope what you say isn't the case, huge missed opportunity if it is....
Yes, the idea is that the primary archetype sets your initial role (the "Tank" tanks, the "Cleric" heals, etc), but the secondary class blurs the line of these hard set roles. So a Tank/Mage will still tank but will be more of a damage dealer than a Tank/Tank.
That's the general idea anyway, we'll have to see what happens when the augment system gets implemented.
You have 9 primary skills.
U get a subclass.
U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills.
The end.
Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway.
As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available.
Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills.
This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.
I jumped the gun on claiming to be able to augment ALL your active skills, I was just hastingly trying to make the point that I knew our subclass doesnt grant entirely new skills ontop of our current ones.
I also wouldn't say 2 classes of the same primary would have many skills exactly the same, as each primary skill can be further invested in and not everyone will find the same value in the same skill's 2nd and third ranks.
So you would still have a great deal of diversity in the skills learned, the points invested and the augments given by 2 of the same primaries with different subs.
EDIT: Let's also add in that both your weapon and passive skills also have ranks that you can invest in, further diversifying your classes even more (tho passive skills only have 1 rank as far I remember from Alpha 1)
Future Falconer, Top 1% PvPer and owner of Big and Beautiful Homesteads
You have 9 primary skills.
U get a subclass.
U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills.
The end.
Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway.
As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available.
Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills.
This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.
I jumped the gun on claiming to be able to augment ALL your active skills, I was just hastingly trying to make the point that I knew our subclass doesnt grant entirely new skills ontop of our current ones.
I also wouldn't say 2 classes of the same primary would have many skills exactly the same, as each primary skill can be further invested in and not everyone will find the same value in the same skill's 2nd and third ranks.
So you would still have a great deal of diversity in the skills learned, the points invested and the augments given by 2 of the same primaries with different subs.
EDIT: Let's also add in that both your weapon and passive skills also have ranks that you can invest in, further diversifying your classes even more (tho passive skills only have 1 rank as far I remember from Alpha 1)
While all of this may well be true, keep the following in mind.
If you are a Necromancer and I am a Beastmasster, if we both opt for the same equipment and place our skill points on getting and improving the same abilities, and then only use augments we both got from our race, religion and/or social organization (we picked all three of these the same), then we would be identical.
You're a Necromancer, I am a Beastmaster, but since neither of us in this scenario used any secondary class augments, they play no part at all in our build. Since everything else we picked as the same, we are the same.
Sure, it is unlikely that two people would be exactly the same as you have said, but that is due to personal choices, not due to the class system.
You have 9 primary skills.
U get a subclass.
U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills.
The end.
Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway.
As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available.
Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills.
This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.
I jumped the gun on claiming to be able to augment ALL your active skills, I was just hastingly trying to make the point that I knew our subclass doesnt grant entirely new skills ontop of our current ones.
I also wouldn't say 2 classes of the same primary would have many skills exactly the same, as each primary skill can be further invested in and not everyone will find the same value in the same skill's 2nd and third ranks.
So you would still have a great deal of diversity in the skills learned, the points invested and the augments given by 2 of the same primaries with different subs.
EDIT: Let's also add in that both your weapon and passive skills also have ranks that you can invest in, further diversifying your classes even more (tho passive skills only have 1 rank as far I remember from Alpha 1)
While all of this may well be true, keep the following in mind.
If you are a Necromancer and I am a Beastmasster, if we both opt for the same equipment and place our skill points on getting and improving the same abilities, and then only use augments we both got from our race, religion and/or social organization (we picked all three of these the same), then we would be identical.
You're a Necromancer, I am a Beastmaster, but since neither of us in this scenario used any secondary class augments, they play no part at all in our build. Since everything else we picked as the same, we are the same.
Sure, it is unlikely that two people would be exactly the same as you have said, but that is due to personal choices, not due to the class system.
Agreed, and my response would basically be what you said as well. It may not be a common thing to see, but it would be the reality of the situation. At the same time, gaining your secondary class is like starting at lvl 1, you gain points and invest in what you like, and due to your different subclass you will have different skills to play with if you so choose.
Many games actually do this already, where you might change class but not have anything to show for it for a certain period of time, or only gain 1 or 2 new skills/abilities, but eventually build into the unique class you sought after.
We won't purposefully choose not to augment our skills, as our subclass is meant to further improve our pre-existing skillset. If you don't like any odd-job classes and double dip into the summoner class, you will still be earning different augments towards your pre-existing skills than that of a beastmaster or necro, so we cant say its not the class system, when it very much is the class system, but as the player your still being given the freedom to choose where you want to invest that augmented power within those classes.
Future Falconer, Top 1% PvPer and owner of Big and Beautiful Homesteads
"Class Fantasy" is a creative trap anyway. The most interesting D&D characters I have ever made have all been cross class. Taking elements of a few classes to create my own unique playstyle and character. In this way instead of being locked into class fantasy I end up with "Character fantasy". Which to me is more creative and special.
This is essentially cross class with a two class restriction. Look at the chart for yourself, many of the class names are phoned in. Tank and Rouge... "Nightshield". What deep lore could that possibly have beyond a just that was a defensive front like warrior who learned a little bit of stealth? The best answer is: you decide.
220 "classes" that are essentially nomenclature with no fantasy. If you learned nothing from my post, at least learn that ArcheAge is one of the four direct inspirations of Ashes.
I do agree with you. I am not looking to lock in class fantasy. I simply hope they will add in class flavour. I am very familiar with AA system and the ridiculous abundance of classes just made them all generic.
I am happy the way they go with the 8 primary classes. You can't go wrong there. My only wish is that the secondary tree gives you the flavour of your "specialization". For summoners for example, once you become a necromancer, your summons can then either be undeads, squelettons, ghosts, banshees or whatever in that realm while the beastmaster summons wild beasts and the falconer, birds of prey or even just one falcon as his companion.
I also welcome IS to introduce us new takes on their classes. You mentioned Nightshield, I have no pre concepts of what that could be or do, I just wish that the animations give a Nightshield flavour like shadowy looking protective bubbles, smoke bombs, etc.
"Class Fantasy" is a creative trap anyway. The most interesting D&D characters I have ever made have all been cross class. Taking elements of a few classes to create my own unique playstyle and character. In this way instead of being locked into class fantasy I end up with "Character fantasy". Which to me is more creative and special.
This is essentially cross class with a two class restriction. Look at the chart for yourself, many of the class names are phoned in. Tank and Rouge... "Nightshield". What deep lore could that possibly have beyond a just that was a defensive front like warrior who learned a little bit of stealth? The best answer is: you decide.
220 "classes" that are essentially nomenclature with no fantasy. If you learned nothing from my post, at least learn that ArcheAge is one of the four direct inspirations of Ashes.
I do agree with you. I am not looking to lock in class fantasy. I simply hope they will add in class flavour. I am very familiar with AA system and the ridiculous abundance of classes just made them all generic.
I am happy the way they go with the 8 primary classes. You can't go wrong there. My only wish is that the secondary tree gives you the flavour of your "specialization". For summoners for example, once you become a necromancer, your summons can then either be undeads, squelettons, ghosts, banshees or whatever in that realm while the beastmaster summons wild beasts and the falconer, birds of prey or even just one falcon as his companion.
I also welcome IS to introduce us new takes on their classes. You mentioned Nightshield, I have no pre concepts of what that could be or do, I just wish that the animations give a Nightshield flavour like shadowy looking protective bubbles, smoke bombs, etc.
Your statement on the necro and beastmaster summons is already an official confirmation from a livestream and thus the wiki, which is why I have no doubt that these classes will fulfill their visual and mechanical roles within the combat of the game, because we have already been given examples of what to expect, aside from it only being dev talk and not a visual representation yet.
Future Falconer, Top 1% PvPer and owner of Big and Beautiful Homesteads
8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.
Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.
I keep asking whether that is true or not for the live streams and haven't gotten an answer yet
Also:
Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]
I'm still going to stand by I hope what you say isn't the case, huge missed opportunity if it is....
Yes, the idea is that the primary archetype sets your initial role (the "Tank" tanks, the "Cleric" heals, etc), but the secondary class blurs the line of these hard set roles. So a Tank/Mage will still tank but will be more of a damage dealer than a Tank/Tank.
That's the general idea anyway, we'll have to see what happens when the augment system gets implemented.
To be fair, this i more a class design issue. I am not even thinking about balance at this point. My initial post was about "the flavour" you get once you select your second archetype.
8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.
Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.
I keep asking whether that is true or not for the live streams and haven't gotten an answer yet
Also:
Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]
I'm still going to stand by I hope what you say isn't the case, huge missed opportunity if it is....
Yes, the idea is that the primary archetype sets your initial role (the "Tank" tanks, the "Cleric" heals, etc), but the secondary class blurs the line of these hard set roles. So a Tank/Mage will still tank but will be more of a damage dealer than a Tank/Tank.
That's the general idea anyway, we'll have to see what happens when the augment system gets implemented.
I personally think a spellshield tank/mage would simply be a tank that can eat more magic dmg than other tanks, or that could dive into the teleportation school and give themselves an extra form(s) of mobility.
Future Falconer, Top 1% PvPer and owner of Big and Beautiful Homesteads
Your statement on the necro and beastmaster summons is already an official confirmation from a livestream and thus the wiki, which is why I have no doubt that these classes will fulfill their visual and mechanical roles within the combat of the game, because we have already been given examples of what to expect, aside from it only being dev talk and not a visual representation yet.
Alright cool then, that ease my concerns quite a bit. I did missed that info.
This is where AA missed the opportunity. No matter the archetypes you choose, skills don't change visually so your "class" has very little identity in the end.
I think it is great that they get inspired from AA system as it gives loads of freedom and still can polish its flaws which was class identity. Even if, I do understand that some classes will be easier than others to give flavour to, I just hope they give it a try
I personally think a spellshield tank/mage would simply be a tank that can eat more magic dmg than other tanks, or that could dive into the teleportation school and give themselves an extra form(s) of mobility.
Yes like the spellbreakers in WC3 that would be sick af. Having tanks that can absorb more nature dmg, magic dmg or physical dmg would give variety and purpose to those dedicated to these roles. I also view fighter/tanks as bruisers basically. They don't have as much dmg as full on fighters but they can absorb a bit more dmg.
Your statement on the necro and beastmaster summons is already an official confirmation from a livestream and thus the wiki, which is why I have no doubt that these classes will fulfill their visual and mechanical roles within the combat of the game, because we have already been given examples of what to expect, aside from it only being dev talk and not a visual representation yet.
Alright cool then, that ease my concerns quite a bit. I did missed that info.
This is where AA missed the opportunity. No matter the archetypes you choose, skills don't change visually so your "class" has very little identity in the end.
I think it is great that they get inspired from AA system as it gives loads of freedom and still can polish its flaws which was class identity. Even if, I do understand that some classes will be easier than others to give flavour to, I just hope they give it a try
Very well said! I enjoyed playing a shadehunter in AA, basically put it on the map (insert video plugs here) and one thing that actually made it feel like I was actually playing a shadowy archer was when "stone endless arrow" gave a dark effect to every shot, making it feel all Sylvanas-like.
Then they made it super slow and a weird aoe mob/raid skill, so... lol So having those types of small effects in the different classes will definitely bring some life into class diversity. I can already picture ranger/bards using fireworks as their flame arrow augment, basically becoming AA's concussive arrow, but with prettier firework effects!
Future Falconer, Top 1% PvPer and owner of Big and Beautiful Homesteads
Very well said! I enjoyed playing a shadehunter in AA, basically put it on the map (insert video plugs here) and one thing that actually made it feel like I was actually playing a shadowy archer was when "stone endless arrow" gave a dark effect to every shot, making it feel all Sylvanas-like.
Then they made it super slow and a weird aoe mob/raid skill, so... lol So having those types of small effects in the different classes will definitely bring some life into class diversity. I can already picture ranger/bards using fireworks as their flame arrow augment, basically becoming AA's concussive arrow, but with prettier firework effects!
Love your ideas for class fantasy and loved your post on the falconer. I always play wizard classes (warlocks, shamans, mages, priests) but heck if they pull off a falconer in this game I am 100% rolling one.
Py'rai (wood elf) or a Vaelune (desert folk) falconer for me!
Your statement on the necro and beastmaster summons is already an official confirmation from a livestream and thus the wiki, which is why I have no doubt that these classes will fulfill their visual and mechanical roles within the combat of the game, because we have already been given examples of what to expect, aside from it only being dev talk and not a visual representation yet.
Assuming you are talking about summoned pets with class specific augments.
Nothing Intrepid have said says anything at all about just your class affecting the appearance of your summons, though by augmenting your summons with an augment from your secondary class, you then alter the appearance of it.
What this means is that you may well be a Necromancer with a zombie as a tank pet, but since you didn't augment your DPS pet at all, it is still the standard fire elemental or whatever that is the summoner archetype base.
It doesn't have to be radically different to have very different identity
Look at summoner. A necromancer and beastmaster are both 'summoners' but hopefully have very different asthetics and are easily identifiable from each other.
They hopefully have different enough gameplay to distinguish them from eachother because a new skin doesn't mean a new class/spec/whatever, it means nothing in terms of gameplay which is whta 90% of people are interested in.
Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.
Choices should matter, exactly.
So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?
. In this way instead of being locked into class fantasy I end up with "Character fantasy". Which to me is more creative and special.
But what about people who do want a ''locked class fantasy'' (by that I'm guessing you mean a well established fantasy for a class) and get disappointed?
What about them?
Because there's going to be a lot of people who are going to come with legitimate expectations based on words like ''Templar'', ''Necromancer'', ''Warlock'', etc ?
We're going to be looking at a lot of legitimat expectations being shattered by illegitimate usage of the word ''class''.
Except Ranger/Tank will not have Tank abilities just ranger abilities.
True
But tank augments can change these abilities to a level that don't know yet. We don't even know what a tank augment School is yet. It's possible that they have threat and mitigation schools. If I was to add threat to my hunter abilities and shift my damage boost cooldown to mitigation. I could reflavor all of my abilities into tank ones.
Are they going to do this with augments? Will they have this level of impact? I don't know. All I've been saying is I hope they do. I hope they allow players to come up with more creative means of play.
I know this isn't a MMO but think of league of legends. You have a character that was designed to be something like a tank, take Leona for example. But then you have people that choose DPS runes and items for a mage and treat her like a mage. She's now not as tanky, but is more of a melee mage. I'm hoping that augments give freedom to change builds like that, rather than just minor "add fire damage" effects.
8 classes is more then enough, for good rpg enough 5 classes mage, ranger, assasin, fighter and cliric. Main question: can intrpd balance classes and subclasess and make them diferences really important. Because even one different spell can change game play, ure will craft and seek another armor, u will have another role in dungeon, and pvp gamestale. MAIN is balance them and make unique. In balance I mean not equil dps for dd and equil heal for heals, I mean thet every class be usefull in some game aspect and people will not play in same builds, stat caps and equip. For example rogue/rogue is best in instant mele dmg, and can awesome burst the target and rogue/cliric have less instant and tunel damage but have lifesteal. So one will have equip to be glass canon, and second focus on long fights and surviving, some heal perks on equip and etc.
Your primary archetype will set your role. Tank will tank and Cleric will heal.
I keep asking whether that is true or not for the live streams and haven't gotten an answer yet
Also:
Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]
I'm still going to stand by I hope what you say isn't the case, huge missed opportunity if it is....
Yes, the idea is that the primary archetype sets your initial role (the "Tank" tanks, the "Cleric" heals, etc), but the secondary class blurs the line of these hard set roles. So a Tank/Mage will still tank but will be more of a damage dealer than a Tank/Tank.
That's the general idea anyway, we'll have to see what happens when the augment system gets implemented.
That line of "you shouldn't feel branded by your primary archetype" is a quote from the wiki, not me. Which is why I keep asking my question about role flexibility. Will any version x/tank be able to tank or will any cleric/x be an efficient DPS instead of being pigeonholed into only healing... No answer yet.
You have 9 primary skills.
U get a subclass.
U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills.
The end.
Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway.
As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available.
Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills.
This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.
Ok, but if I only unlock a few skills I could augment everything couldn't I?
If I put skill points into unlocking every ability available, no I can't augment every one. But if I only unlock half, I should be able to augment that half... At least that's the way I've been reading that.
And it's ok if Necro and BM have similar abilities if they are 'support' abilities for your minions. Such as healing, or increase attack/move speed buffs... That still makes sense as they are summoners.
You guys are setting yourself up for disappointment and I hate to see it.
It's not the fault of the people but the fault of intrepid for using words like ''class'' with apparently no justification.
If I make a Pizza Restaurant and you come expecting Pizza but I tell you you misunderstood, is it your fault?
No.
Steven has stated in a livestream that there will only be 8 actual classes, and that class combo's are simply variants of those classes with different fundamentals based on your augments. I don't get all this negative hearsay as if we haven't been given direct information on how they expect their class system to work.
If you're a ranger, and you pick summoner, some of your augmented skills will be fundamentally different than that of a Hawkeye, scion, soulbow, etc. While some will stay the same, which is entirely based on your skill choices.
You SHOULD have similarities, you are still the same primary archetype, you simply gain a bit of flavor based on your subclass that will potentially change how you approach different combat situations.
A falconer and a Hawkeye still use a bow, but the falconer has a falcon helping them out sometimes, while the Hawkeye has superior precision/dmg on some of both the falconer and Hawkeyes skills. These skills are not going to be overly flashy, they're small changes (mostly) that give each class combo a bit of uniqueness.
The falconer could dive into a completely different summoner school and not use a (living) falcon at all, but instead enchant their weapon and armor/self in some way to increase dmg and movement.
How are 4 schools of augments for each subclass not going to change how your character works in some way? Ask yourself that question.. that's 32 skill variants for any one skill just from the 8 primary class schools. Then you add in that you have roughly 7-9+ skills to choose from that you can augment.. not understanding the fuss at all.
Future Falconer, Top 1% PvPer and owner of Big and Beautiful Homesteads
It's not the fault of the people but the fault of intrepid for using words like ''class'' with apparently no justification.
If I make a Pizza Restaurant and you come expecting Pizza but I tell you you misunderstood, is it your fault?
No.
The pizza analogy is perfect here because pizza is different in different parts of the world. We have multiple styles of pizza in the United States, and many people refuse to call other pizza styles than the ones they like pizza.
Just like many games use the word class differently.
There really should be no expectation for the word class other than the fact that games use it differently.
But what about people who do want a ''locked class fantasy'' (by that I'm guessing you mean a well established fantasy for a class) and get disappointed?
What about them?
They maybe excited about the wrong game. At a minimum, they are excited about this game for the wrong reason.
If I wanted to get into FFXIV expecting it to have good PvP right now. I would be excited about that game for the wrong reason. With a minor amount of research, people learn that FFXIV has PvP, but it's not very good.
The same is true for Ashes. Just read the class page on the wiki.
Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.
Choices should matter, exactly.
So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?
Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either
Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.
Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.
Future Falconer, Top 1% PvPer and owner of Big and Beautiful Homesteads
Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.
Choices should matter, exactly.
So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?
Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either
Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.
Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.
Let's not make assumptions, as we don't know what each class can and cannot do. A lot of it depends on what kind of augments we get and how the content is balanced.
Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.
Choices should matter, exactly.
So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?
Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either
Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.
Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.
Let's not make assumptions, as we don't know what each class can and cannot do. A lot of it depends on what kind of augments we get and how the content is balanced.
It's not an assumption, it's an official statement. Your sub class WILL NOT replace the primary archetypes roles.
Future Falconer, Top 1% PvPer and owner of Big and Beautiful Homesteads
If you are a Necromancer and I am a Beastmasster, if we both opt for the same equipment and place our skill points on getting and improving the same abilities, and then only use augments we both got from our race, religion and/or social organization (we picked all three of these the same), then we would be identical.
You're a Necromancer, I am a Beastmaster, but since neither of us in this scenario used any secondary class augments, they play no part at all in our build. Since everything else we picked as the same, we are the same.
Sure, it is unlikely that two people would be exactly the same as you have said, but that is due to personal choices, not due to the class system.
I worry about class identity as well... when I found out that all classes will use mana I was pretty disappointed. The archetypes I thought should feel as different as possible at least since all we get is augments from the secondary and all of them using the same resource system does not contribute to that. But as always, gotta see it before making a final judgement.
Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.
Choices should matter, exactly.
So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?
Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either
Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.
Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.
It's on the wiki
A quote from a live stream
"Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]"
That gives me the impression that it could be flexible...
Sidenote: please don't talk like you KNOW the answers when we don't have enough info. I fully accept that we don't know yet, and I am content with waiting. All of this is merely conjecture.
This is why I use the phrase I HOPE that there is more flexibility.
Why?
Choices should matter and letting everyone do everything means nothing matters.
Choices should matter, exactly.
So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?
Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either
Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.
Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.
It's on the wiki
A quote from a live stream
"Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]"
That gives me the impression that it could be flexible...
Sidenote: please don't talk like you KNOW the answers when we don't have enough info. I fully accept that we don't know yet, and I am content with waiting. All of this is merely conjecture.
This is why I use the phrase I HOPE that there is more flexibility.
If you feel I'm speaking as if I KNOW anything, then you're misreading the tone of my responses. I am only interpreting what official devs (livestreams mainly) have directly told us.
That statement on not being branded by your primary was clearly directed at your class being able to do a bit of something else, while still being its primary archetype. Archer healing, mage off tanking, rogue using magic, etc.
Steven specifically stated in a livestream that primaries, notably tanks and Healers, will not be replaced by subclasses of other primary archetypes. (Rangers,fighters,bards,mages). Summoners are a special case, as their pets will be able to tank/dps, and I believe heal too.
None of this is me just stating theory as fact, it's simply official devs stating what things will and will not do on paper with no visual example yet (except the fighter teleporting with charge under the effects of the mage subclass teleportation school).
Future Falconer, Top 1% PvPer and owner of Big and Beautiful Homesteads
Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either
Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.
Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.
Sounds like you talking like you KNOW the answers...
That's just your interpretation of what you've read. I've quoted stuff that is in direct contrast to this. But the thing is we could BOTH be wrong, we don't KNOW what IS is doing behind close doors or how anything that we are going off of here has changed in the past year. We can't debate class design and party roles while they still haven't even hammered out what combat will be like.
Honestly all of our dev quotes could be outdated since they're from 2-4 years ago... We don't KNOW what has changed in that time. All we can do is share opinions, and hope we like what we hear when we finally get some more news. Or I get an answer one of these months on the Q&A threads.
You have 9 primary skills.
U get a subclass.
U augment 9 skills into different versions of those 9 skills.
The end.
Actually, this isn't how it will work - not as far as we know, anyway.
As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available.
Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills.
This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.
Ok, but if I only unlock a few skills I could augment everything couldn't I?
If I put skill points into unlocking every ability available, no I can't augment every one. But if I only unlock half, I should be able to augment that half... At least that's the way I've been reading that.
And it's ok if Necro and BM have similar abilities if they are 'support' abilities for your minions. Such as healing, or increase attack/move speed buffs... That still makes sense as they are summoners.
It is possible you will be able to augment every skill you unlock if you only unlock half of the skills available to you, although this may also not be true. However, even if it is true, you will then be left with all of your skills at rank 1 out of 3.
Since what you seem to be wanting here is almost exclusively a visual thing, I think the best thing to hope for are spell cosmetics on the cash shop - something I expect to see in one form or another after the game launches.
"Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]"
That gives me the impression that it could be flexible...
While they have said this, they have also said that when you pick your primary class, that IS your role.
So, at best, we have conflicting information on the matter - meaning don't go in with a specific expectation unless we get clarification specifically talking about this conflict of information.
Comments
As far as we know currently, you gain skill points as you level. Skill points can be used to obtain new skills, improve existing skills (increase ranks), or augment skills with what augments you have available.
Based on this, you are unlikely to augment all of your skills.
This means a Necromancer is going to have many skills exactly the same as a Beastmaster.
Yes, the idea is that the primary archetype sets your initial role (the "Tank" tanks, the "Cleric" heals, etc), but the secondary class blurs the line of these hard set roles. So a Tank/Mage will still tank but will be more of a damage dealer than a Tank/Tank.
That's the general idea anyway, we'll have to see what happens when the augment system gets implemented.
I jumped the gun on claiming to be able to augment ALL your active skills, I was just hastingly trying to make the point that I knew our subclass doesnt grant entirely new skills ontop of our current ones.
I also wouldn't say 2 classes of the same primary would have many skills exactly the same, as each primary skill can be further invested in and not everyone will find the same value in the same skill's 2nd and third ranks.
So you would still have a great deal of diversity in the skills learned, the points invested and the augments given by 2 of the same primaries with different subs.
EDIT: Let's also add in that both your weapon and passive skills also have ranks that you can invest in, further diversifying your classes even more (tho passive skills only have 1 rank as far I remember from Alpha 1)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
If you are a Necromancer and I am a Beastmasster, if we both opt for the same equipment and place our skill points on getting and improving the same abilities, and then only use augments we both got from our race, religion and/or social organization (we picked all three of these the same), then we would be identical.
You're a Necromancer, I am a Beastmaster, but since neither of us in this scenario used any secondary class augments, they play no part at all in our build. Since everything else we picked as the same, we are the same.
Sure, it is unlikely that two people would be exactly the same as you have said, but that is due to personal choices, not due to the class system.
Agreed, and my response would basically be what you said as well. It may not be a common thing to see, but it would be the reality of the situation. At the same time, gaining your secondary class is like starting at lvl 1, you gain points and invest in what you like, and due to your different subclass you will have different skills to play with if you so choose.
Many games actually do this already, where you might change class but not have anything to show for it for a certain period of time, or only gain 1 or 2 new skills/abilities, but eventually build into the unique class you sought after.
We won't purposefully choose not to augment our skills, as our subclass is meant to further improve our pre-existing skillset. If you don't like any odd-job classes and double dip into the summoner class, you will still be earning different augments towards your pre-existing skills than that of a beastmaster or necro, so we cant say its not the class system, when it very much is the class system, but as the player your still being given the freedom to choose where you want to invest that augmented power within those classes.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
I do agree with you. I am not looking to lock in class fantasy. I simply hope they will add in class flavour. I am very familiar with AA system and the ridiculous abundance of classes just made them all generic.
I am happy the way they go with the 8 primary classes. You can't go wrong there. My only wish is that the secondary tree gives you the flavour of your "specialization". For summoners for example, once you become a necromancer, your summons can then either be undeads, squelettons, ghosts, banshees or whatever in that realm while the beastmaster summons wild beasts and the falconer, birds of prey or even just one falcon as his companion.
I also welcome IS to introduce us new takes on their classes. You mentioned Nightshield, I have no pre concepts of what that could be or do, I just wish that the animations give a Nightshield flavour like shadowy looking protective bubbles, smoke bombs, etc.
Your statement on the necro and beastmaster summons is already an official confirmation from a livestream and thus the wiki, which is why I have no doubt that these classes will fulfill their visual and mechanical roles within the combat of the game, because we have already been given examples of what to expect, aside from it only being dev talk and not a visual representation yet.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
To be fair, this i more a class design issue. I am not even thinking about balance at this point. My initial post was about "the flavour" you get once you select your second archetype.
I personally think a spellshield tank/mage would simply be a tank that can eat more magic dmg than other tanks, or that could dive into the teleportation school and give themselves an extra form(s) of mobility.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
Alright cool then, that ease my concerns quite a bit. I did missed that info.
This is where AA missed the opportunity. No matter the archetypes you choose, skills don't change visually so your "class" has very little identity in the end.
I think it is great that they get inspired from AA system as it gives loads of freedom and still can polish its flaws which was class identity. Even if, I do understand that some classes will be easier than others to give flavour to, I just hope they give it a try
Yes like the spellbreakers in WC3 that would be sick af. Having tanks that can absorb more nature dmg, magic dmg or physical dmg would give variety and purpose to those dedicated to these roles. I also view fighter/tanks as bruisers basically. They don't have as much dmg as full on fighters but they can absorb a bit more dmg.
Very well said! I enjoyed playing a shadehunter in AA, basically put it on the map (insert video plugs here) and one thing that actually made it feel like I was actually playing a shadowy archer was when "stone endless arrow" gave a dark effect to every shot, making it feel all Sylvanas-like.
Then they made it super slow and a weird aoe mob/raid skill, so... lol So having those types of small effects in the different classes will definitely bring some life into class diversity. I can already picture ranger/bards using fireworks as their flame arrow augment, basically becoming AA's concussive arrow, but with prettier firework effects!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
Love your ideas for class fantasy and loved your post on the falconer. I always play wizard classes (warlocks, shamans, mages, priests) but heck if they pull off a falconer in this game I am 100% rolling one.
Py'rai (wood elf) or a Vaelune (desert folk) falconer for me!
Nothing Intrepid have said says anything at all about just your class affecting the appearance of your summons, though by augmenting your summons with an augment from your secondary class, you then alter the appearance of it.
What this means is that you may well be a Necromancer with a zombie as a tank pet, but since you didn't augment your DPS pet at all, it is still the standard fire elemental or whatever that is the summoner archetype base.
They hopefully have different enough gameplay to distinguish them from eachother because a new skin doesn't mean a new class/spec/whatever, it means nothing in terms of gameplay which is whta 90% of people are interested in.
Choices should matter, exactly.
So if you choose to be a cleric dps (dps focused hybrid where the main % of the performance comes from the damage being deal and the rest of the % performance comes from support spells) shouldn't that matter?
It's not the fault of the people but the fault of intrepid for using words like ''class'' with apparently no justification.
If I make a Pizza Restaurant and you come expecting Pizza but I tell you you misunderstood, is it your fault?
No.
But what about people who do want a ''locked class fantasy'' (by that I'm guessing you mean a well established fantasy for a class) and get disappointed?
What about them?
Because there's going to be a lot of people who are going to come with legitimate expectations based on words like ''Templar'', ''Necromancer'', ''Warlock'', etc ?
We're going to be looking at a lot of legitimat expectations being shattered by illegitimate usage of the word ''class''.
True
But tank augments can change these abilities to a level that don't know yet. We don't even know what a tank augment School is yet. It's possible that they have threat and mitigation schools. If I was to add threat to my hunter abilities and shift my damage boost cooldown to mitigation. I could reflavor all of my abilities into tank ones.
Are they going to do this with augments? Will they have this level of impact? I don't know. All I've been saying is I hope they do. I hope they allow players to come up with more creative means of play.
I know this isn't a MMO but think of league of legends. You have a character that was designed to be something like a tank, take Leona for example. But then you have people that choose DPS runes and items for a mage and treat her like a mage. She's now not as tanky, but is more of a melee mage. I'm hoping that augments give freedom to change builds like that, rather than just minor "add fire damage" effects.
That line of "you shouldn't feel branded by your primary archetype" is a quote from the wiki, not me. Which is why I keep asking my question about role flexibility. Will any version x/tank be able to tank or will any cleric/x be an efficient DPS instead of being pigeonholed into only healing... No answer yet.
Ok, but if I only unlock a few skills I could augment everything couldn't I?
If I put skill points into unlocking every ability available, no I can't augment every one. But if I only unlock half, I should be able to augment that half... At least that's the way I've been reading that.
And it's ok if Necro and BM have similar abilities if they are 'support' abilities for your minions. Such as healing, or increase attack/move speed buffs... That still makes sense as they are summoners.
If you're a ranger, and you pick summoner, some of your augmented skills will be fundamentally different than that of a Hawkeye, scion, soulbow, etc. While some will stay the same, which is entirely based on your skill choices.
You SHOULD have similarities, you are still the same primary archetype, you simply gain a bit of flavor based on your subclass that will potentially change how you approach different combat situations.
A falconer and a Hawkeye still use a bow, but the falconer has a falcon helping them out sometimes, while the Hawkeye has superior precision/dmg on some of both the falconer and Hawkeyes skills. These skills are not going to be overly flashy, they're small changes (mostly) that give each class combo a bit of uniqueness.
The falconer could dive into a completely different summoner school and not use a (living) falcon at all, but instead enchant their weapon and armor/self in some way to increase dmg and movement.
How are 4 schools of augments for each subclass not going to change how your character works in some way? Ask yourself that question.. that's 32 skill variants for any one skill just from the 8 primary class schools. Then you add in that you have roughly 7-9+ skills to choose from that you can augment.. not understanding the fuss at all.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
The pizza analogy is perfect here because pizza is different in different parts of the world. We have multiple styles of pizza in the United States, and many people refuse to call other pizza styles than the ones they like pizza.
Just like many games use the word class differently.
There really should be no expectation for the word class other than the fact that games use it differently.
They maybe excited about the wrong game. At a minimum, they are excited about this game for the wrong reason.
If I wanted to get into FFXIV expecting it to have good PvP right now. I would be excited about that game for the wrong reason. With a minor amount of research, people learn that FFXIV has PvP, but it's not very good.
The same is true for Ashes. Just read the class page on the wiki.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Healers can't main dps
Dps can't main heal
Either can't main tank
Tanks can't main either
Drill this in our heads, and you'll be alot happier going forward, knowing what you subspec into is only going to give you the illusion of being a hybrid class, but will ultimately fall short to any class tailored to actual dmg dealing/healing/tanking.
Your cleric/fighter is going to be a healer first, and have some offensive skills in the mix that will more or less allow you to be a bit more aggressive, but in no way to the point of ever being capable of outdpsing a fighter/cleric, who also can never heal as well as you.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
Let's not make assumptions, as we don't know what each class can and cannot do. A lot of it depends on what kind of augments we get and how the content is balanced.
It's not an assumption, it's an official statement. Your sub class WILL NOT replace the primary archetypes roles.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
I think we should test this in Beta One.
It's on the wiki
A quote from a live stream
"Although traditional roles are present, players should not feel branded by their primary archetype.[2][4]"
That gives me the impression that it could be flexible...
Sidenote: please don't talk like you KNOW the answers when we don't have enough info. I fully accept that we don't know yet, and I am content with waiting. All of this is merely conjecture.
This is why I use the phrase I HOPE that there is more flexibility.
If you feel I'm speaking as if I KNOW anything, then you're misreading the tone of my responses. I am only interpreting what official devs (livestreams mainly) have directly told us.
That statement on not being branded by your primary was clearly directed at your class being able to do a bit of something else, while still being its primary archetype. Archer healing, mage off tanking, rogue using magic, etc.
Steven specifically stated in a livestream that primaries, notably tanks and Healers, will not be replaced by subclasses of other primary archetypes. (Rangers,fighters,bards,mages). Summoners are a special case, as their pets will be able to tank/dps, and I believe heal too.
None of this is me just stating theory as fact, it's simply official devs stating what things will and will not do on paper with no visual example yet (except the fighter teleporting with charge under the effects of the mage subclass teleportation school).
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuU1txumPQ5PqdU1D9cPhIg
https://twitch.tv/trusivraj
This
Sounds like you talking like you KNOW the answers...
That's just your interpretation of what you've read. I've quoted stuff that is in direct contrast to this. But the thing is we could BOTH be wrong, we don't KNOW what IS is doing behind close doors or how anything that we are going off of here has changed in the past year. We can't debate class design and party roles while they still haven't even hammered out what combat will be like.
Honestly all of our dev quotes could be outdated since they're from 2-4 years ago... We don't KNOW what has changed in that time. All we can do is share opinions, and hope we like what we hear when we finally get some more news. Or I get an answer one of these months on the Q&A threads.
Since what you seem to be wanting here is almost exclusively a visual thing, I think the best thing to hope for are spell cosmetics on the cash shop - something I expect to see in one form or another after the game launches.
While they have said this, they have also said that when you pick your primary class, that IS your role.
So, at best, we have conflicting information on the matter - meaning don't go in with a specific expectation unless we get clarification specifically talking about this conflict of information.