A good MMO will make sure players are never able to cap out on their progression. Before anyone gets to that top tier of progression, a new tier will be added to the game. This applies at the top end of the game, but also at various points all the way down so that no player has ever completed all the progression they feel they are able to complete.
Sure, that may make some people feel like the game is just a never ending treadmill - but that is what MMO's are. They aren't supposed to end until the game closes down.
I'm not sure this is realistic, ideally sure it would be nice to never run out of things to work towards, but short of making the content unbearably grindy or so difficult that the majority of players would never be able to complete it I don't think it could really be done. Players blow through content significantly faster than developers can realistically create engaging content.
I think one of the things that will enable progression to be stretched out is the respawn rates of world bosses. In the same way raid lockouts slow down player progression in other games, respawn rates can be adjusted to affect how fast players can get the best gear. Since these bosses are in the open world, they can only be killed and looted by one group each spawn. Combine that with the necessity for resources to repair gear as well as overenchanting and i think there will be a tier of progression that will take extremely long to progress through. Nodes also add another layer to this since they limit the content that is available. As time goes on and nodes change, so will the items that are available.
Your comment is absolutely pointless and factually wrong.
/sigh
When it comes to how MMO’s have been traditionally designed, most gamers are familiar with two distinct types of gameplay loops: the “theme park”, and the “sandbox”. The vast majority of MMO’s we’ve all seen come and go in the gaming industry have been of the theme park variety – these games put the player onto a specific path, guiding them along, with plenty of pretty sights in between the same old quest hubs, very little in divergent paths, virtually no freedom in player progression. Recently the MMO genre has seen some games of the sandbox nature come onto the scene, but despite the ultimate freedom the sandbox affords players, many are left wanting more, as there is by definition no pre built world content, no human touch, just the vastness of the “sand” for lack of a better term. Thus many MMO players often find themselves caught between the repetitive rock of the theme park or the vast dead spaces of the sandbox’s hard place. This chasm between the state of MMO gameplay loops is where we intend to inject Ashes of Creation’s Node system.[5]
In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take.[7] – Steven SharifWhen it comes to how MMO’s have been traditionally designed, most gamers are familiar with two distinct types of gameplay loops: the “theme park”, and the “sandbox”. The vast majority of MMO’s we’ve all seen come and go in the gaming industry have been of the theme park variety – these games put the player onto a specific path, guiding them along, with plenty of pretty sights in between the same old quest hubs, very little in divergent paths, virtually no freedom in player progression. Recently the MMO genre has seen some games of the sandbox nature come onto the scene, but despite the ultimate freedom the sandbox affords players, many are left wanting more, as there is by definition no pre built world content, no human touch, just the vastness of the “sand” for lack of a better term. Thus many MMO players often find themselves caught between the repetitive rock of the theme park or the vast dead spaces of the sandbox’s hard place. This chasm between the state of MMO gameplay loops is where we intend to inject Ashes of Creation’s Node system.[5]
In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take.[7] – Steven Sharif
I think my responses on this thread speak for themselves, regardless of your defensiveness.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Your comment is absolutely pointless and factually wrong.
/sigh
When it comes to how MMO’s have been traditionally designed, most gamers are familiar with two distinct types of gameplay loops: the “theme park”, and the “sandbox”. The vast majority of MMO’s we’ve all seen come and go in the gaming industry have been of the theme park variety – these games put the player onto a specific path, guiding them along, with plenty of pretty sights in between the same old quest hubs, very little in divergent paths, virtually no freedom in player progression. Recently the MMO genre has seen some games of the sandbox nature come onto the scene, but despite the ultimate freedom the sandbox affords players, many are left wanting more, as there is by definition no pre built world content, no human touch, just the vastness of the “sand” for lack of a better term. Thus many MMO players often find themselves caught between the repetitive rock of the theme park or the vast dead spaces of the sandbox’s hard place. This chasm between the state of MMO gameplay loops is where we intend to inject Ashes of Creation’s Node system.[5]
In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take.[7] – Steven SharifWhen it comes to how MMO’s have been traditionally designed, most gamers are familiar with two distinct types of gameplay loops: the “theme park”, and the “sandbox”. The vast majority of MMO’s we’ve all seen come and go in the gaming industry have been of the theme park variety – these games put the player onto a specific path, guiding them along, with plenty of pretty sights in between the same old quest hubs, very little in divergent paths, virtually no freedom in player progression. Recently the MMO genre has seen some games of the sandbox nature come onto the scene, but despite the ultimate freedom the sandbox affords players, many are left wanting more, as there is by definition no pre built world content, no human touch, just the vastness of the “sand” for lack of a better term. Thus many MMO players often find themselves caught between the repetitive rock of the theme park or the vast dead spaces of the sandbox’s hard place. This chasm between the state of MMO gameplay loops is where we intend to inject Ashes of Creation’s Node system.[5]
In order for sandbox mechanics to mean something, there must be curated content to accompany the player’s choices. Which means, as the developers, we must create that Themebox style content but for every possible path the community may take.[7] – Steven Sharif
I think my responses on this thread speak for themselves, regardless of your defensiveness.
Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
Wow this discussion is just the whole debate about income/wealth inequality all over again. How much of an advantage/reward should you get for being rich, or having a lot of spare time or other privileges? I hope this game helps y'all figure out the right answers before you learn it the hard way in real life.
And no I'm not gonna share what I think is correct, because I know nobody is ever convinced by strangers on the internet, when it comes to fundamental and contentious stuff like this.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wow this discussion is just the whole debate about income/wealth inequality all over again. How much of an advantage/reward should you get for being rich (or having a lot of spare time, or other privileges.) I hope this game helps y'all figure out the right answers before you learn it the hard way in real life.
And no I'm not gonna share what I think is correct, because I know nobody is ever convinced by strangers on the internet, when it comes to fundamental and contentious stuff like this.
But this isn't real life. It doesn't work like that with video games when people have the simple option to just quit. Developers need to design good parameters.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Wow this discussion is just the whole debate about income/wealth inequality all over again. How much of an advantage/reward should you get for being rich (or having a lot of spare time, or other privileges.) I hope this game helps y'all figure out the right answers before you learn it the hard way in real life.
And no I'm not gonna share what I think is correct, because I know nobody is ever convinced by strangers on the internet, when it comes to fundamental and contentious stuff like this.
It's a game that people choose to play, a little different than real life. Not sure who expects real life to be the same as a game or why you think a game needs to mimic real life. We are shooting magic spells at dragons for crying out loud.
Whole point of forums is to share opinions and even if you can't convince the person you talking to, readers could be swayed.
Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
Heh. There are differences, particularly relative to the story being told, and the player's participation in that story. Ultimately, Ashes is probably going to be its own thing somewhere in that gray. The only reason I brought it up, is that 'themebox' is how Intrepid explicitly refers to their design direction.
Feel free to be aggrieved accordingly.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
But... you indicated there is a difference between Themebox and Sandpark.
You wrote:
"What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox/sandpark MMOs this is not an issue.
The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase."
That quote is flawed.
The accurate version is:
"What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox MMOs this is not an issue.
The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase."
Ashes is a themebox/sandpark. Ashes has a mix of both dev curated "content" and players as "content".
But, Steven feels Ashes will have more of a focus on the theme than the sand.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Imagine AoC where casuals can stand "almost" on par with hardcore players cuz of game design. Now imagine an AoC server where there are no hardcore players cuz they dont see the point of investing time in a game that doesn't reward them.
I mean... the weirdest part is focusing on casual v hardcore.
People are not going to quit because they're losing to "casuals".
How is a hardcore going to know they are fighting a casual-time player?
At this point, what we're talking about is a gearscore gap.
But, time played is not a hard limit on acquisition of competitive gear.
We can Ashes to reward players adequately for time invested.
But, there are several ways people can skip over time obstacles - especially if you have hardcore time friends to help you do so.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
Heh. There are differences, particularly relative to the story being told, and the player's participation in that story. Ultimately, Ashes is probably going to be its own thing somewhere in that gray. The only reason I brought it up, is that 'themebox' is how Intrepid explicitly refers to their design direction.
Feel free to be aggrieved accordingly.
This is so petty... Please go ahead and define the difference between Sandpark and Themebox. A clear definition that is accepted by the MMO community which clearly shows that the two are very different.
It's not as if Steven referred to AoC as both a Themebox and a Sandpark.
Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
Heh. There are differences, particularly relative to the story being told, and the player's participation in that story. Ultimately, Ashes is probably going to be its own thing somewhere in that gray. The only reason I brought it up, is that 'themebox' is how Intrepid explicitly refers to their design direction.
Feel free to be aggrieved accordingly.
This is so petty... Please go ahead and define the difference between Sandpark and Themebox. A clear definition that is accepted by the MMO community which clearly shows that the two are very different.
It's not as if Steven referred to AoC as both a Themebox and a Sandpark.
Steven literally explained it, and @CROW3 quoted it to you.
Like, he explained it EXACTLY.
There doesn't even need to be a separate definition that is 'largely agreed on', the Creative Director used and EXPLAINED a term in detail.
You are... more easily triggered than most people I know, and that's saying a lot.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
But... you indicated there is a difference between Themebox and Sandpark.
You wrote:
"What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox/sandpark MMOs this is not an issue.
The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase."
That quote is flawed.
The accurate version is:
"What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox MMOs this is not an issue.
The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase."
Ashes is a themebox/sandpark. Ashes has a mix of both dev curated "content" and players as "content".
There is the other one... was wondering how long it would take you to scratch the disagreement itch. I never said that there is a difference between themebox and sandpark. I simply said "sandbox/sandpark" because these games differ a lot from themepark MMOs. I did not say "sandbox/sandpark/themebox" because sandpark and themebox are the same thing so it would be redundant.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
Heh. There are differences, particularly relative to the story being told, and the player's participation in that story. Ultimately, Ashes is probably going to be its own thing somewhere in that gray. The only reason I brought it up, is that 'themebox' is how Intrepid explicitly refers to their design direction.
Feel free to be aggrieved accordingly.
This is so petty... Please go ahead and define the difference between Sandpark and Themebox. A clear definition that is accepted by the MMO community which clearly shows that the two are very different.
It's not as if Steven referred to AoC as both a Themebox and a Sandpark.
Steven literally explained it, and @CROW3 quoted it to you.
Like, he explained it EXACTLY.
There doesn't even need to be a separate definition that is 'largely agreed on', the Creative Director used and EXPLAINED a term in detail.
You are... more easily triggered than most people I know, and that's saying a lot.
Steven also called AoC a sandpark MMO. What is the difference between the two if you are coming here to correct my calling AoC a sandpark as opposed to a themepark? If there is no difference between the two it doesn't matter.
Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
Heh. There are differences, particularly relative to the story being told, and the player's participation in that story. Ultimately, Ashes is probably going to be its own thing somewhere in that gray. The only reason I brought it up, is that 'themebox' is how Intrepid explicitly refers to their design direction.
Feel free to be aggrieved accordingly.
This is so petty... Please go ahead and define the difference between Sandpark and Themebox. A clear definition that is accepted by the MMO community which clearly shows that the two are very different.
It's not as if Steven referred to AoC as both a Themebox and a Sandpark.
Steven literally explained it, and @CROW3 quoted it to you.
Like, he explained it EXACTLY.
There doesn't even need to be a separate definition that is 'largely agreed on', the Creative Director used and EXPLAINED a term in detail.
You are... more easily triggered than most people I know, and that's saying a lot.
Steven also called AoC a sandpark MMO. What is the difference between the two if you are coming here to correct my calling AoC a sandpark as opposed to a themepark? If there is no difference between the two it doesn't matter.
Oh, no no, you're right, actually, I was able to find a point where Steven used the word sandpark once.
So I'll just presume that all his other detailed explanations, including a design description that can easily be contrasted with a potential opposite, and the whole pages and relative logic (that I must now assume only makes sense to me and maybe @CROW3 ) were irrelevant, since he DID admittedly use a term that doesn't have a consensus definition probably until Ashes is finished, at least one time.
I mean... the weirdest part is focusing on casual v hardcore.
People are not going to quit because they're losing to "casuals".
How is a hardcore going to know they are fighting a casual-time player?
Yep, some of the most important misconceptions OP has in his post that i criticized way back in page 4 is his Black and White Dicotomy mentality that refuse to see all the gray in between casuals and hardcore which also refuses to acknowledge Time-Efficient Casual players or Time-InefficientHardcore players.
I mean, i literally said this, back in page 2 but our man VmanGman got stunlocked with his 20-30% ideal and wasn't satisfied with Steven's 40-50%.
Hardcore players will always have the upper-hand in terms of gear (considering same farm efficiency but more playtime) over casuals, but gear isn't the ultimate form of power, skill and numbers can be casuals greatest strengths.
Casuals will be full-on participating due to the promise of massive PvP siege events where gear will only do so much to keep you alive long enough to charge. The excitement of these massive fights will draw and retain a lot of casual PvPer's. You will die so many times in these fights that getting ganked by some rando out in the open world will be a PIA and nothing more and you could just spitefully let the F'er take the corruption hit. But dying ain't gonna be nothing in this game, like others said, a few mats you didn't bank yet and some gear damage(?).
Casuals will be full-on participating due to the promise of massive PvP siege events where gear will only do so much to keep you alive long enough to charge. The excitement of these massive fights will draw and retain a lot of casual PvPer's. You will die so many times in these fights that getting ganked be some rando out in the open world will be a PIA and nothing more and you could just spitefully let the F'er take the corruption hit. But dying ain't gonna be nothing in this game, like others said, a few mats you didn't bank yet and some gear damage(?).
A good MMO will make sure players are never able to cap out on their progression. Before anyone gets to that top tier of progression, a new tier will be added to the game. This applies at the top end of the game, but also at various points all the way down so that no player has ever completed all the progression they feel they are able to complete.
Sure, that may make some people feel like the game is just a never ending treadmill - but that is what MMO's are. They aren't supposed to end until the game closes down.
I'm not sure this is realistic, ideally sure it would be nice to never run out of things to work towards, but short of making the content unbearably grindy or so difficult that the majority of players would never be able to complete it I don't think it could really be done. Players blow through content significantly faster than developers can realistically create engaging content.
Archeage managed to do it.
Sure, it was grundy, but you had your pick of ways to grind it out.
The game also had its issues with pay to win, but the basic itemization system could be copied over to a game without that monetization just fine.
For all the many reasons people left Archeage, I never once heard anyone leave because they felt there was jo longer any viable progression for them.
I can't say that about any other MMO that I can think of.
Noaani You and I just have vastly different understandings to what is good and healthy game design for a MMO. I hope AoC succeeds.
I have a simple question for you.
In your experience, what do players do when they no longer have any meaningful progress they can make in an MMO?
IMO one need look no further than WoW server populations to see this. They swell with new expansions, and as people complete the content they are able to complete, the population drops. Then, as new content (and thus new progression) is added, they come back - until they have completed the progression they are able to complete.
A good MMO will make sure players are never able to cap out on their progression. Before anyone gets to that top tier of progression, a new tier will be added to the game. This applies at the top end of the game, but also at various points all the way down so that no player has ever completed all the progression they feel they are able to complete.
Sure, that may make some people feel like the game is just a never ending treadmill - but that is what MMO's are. They aren't supposed to end until the game closes down.
What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox/sandpark MMOs this is not an issue. The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase. People will always have meaningful progress to make in a sandpark MMO as vast as AoC.
This is a fairly weak argument, honestly.
First, as pointed out, Ashes isn't an outright sandbox MMO. This is a good thing, because it wouldn't survive as one.
Second, even if it were a sandbox MMO, people still need a reason to fight, and the only reason that has ever been successful is personal progression. Cut off that personal progression, and you stop giving players a reason to fight, or to be fought, or to log in.
I'm unsure of your last statement that people will always have meaningful progress to make in a game like Ashes. They can only have progress to make if the game has a path for them to progress down. If the game has a path for them to progress down, then those that progress down that path faster will be at an advantage over those that don't.
It is logical that you can't have both continual progression, and a narrow gap between those that progress and those that don't.
Casuals will be full-on participating due to the promise of massive PvP siege events where gear will only do so much to keep you alive long enough to charge. The excitement of these massive fights will draw and retain a lot of casual PvPer's. You will die so many times in these fights that getting ganked be some rando out in the open world will be a PIA and nothing more and you could just spitefully let the F'er take the corruption hit. But dying ain't gonna be nothing in this game, like others said, a few mats you didn't bank yet and some gear damage(?).
Thank you. You said what I've been thinking perfectly.
Every time I see the title of this thread it irritates the crap out of me. "Protecting our Casuals". Like all casuals are delicate little flowers that need to be swaddled in bubble wrap and have everything handed to us because we can't do anything for ourselves or figure anything out on our own. Maybe I'm the only one who feels that ways, I don't know.
It's great to be concerned about the game being balanced and for it to be enjoyable to its player base. It's a good conversation to have. But you need to watch out for blanket generalizations. Few things in live are either/or, most are "and".
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I never said that there is a difference between themebox and sandpark. I simply said "sandbox/sandpark" because these games differ a lot from themepark MMOs. I did not say "sandbox/sandpark/themebox" because sandpark and themebox are the same thing so it would be redundant.
You definitely said there is a difference.
You wrote:
"What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox/sandpark MMOs this is not an issue. The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase."
Content is the players is the Sand. Which is why you placed sandbox/sandpark in opposition to Theme and said the content is the players.
Did you even read Steven's quote? Or did you merely not understand it?
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I never said that there is a difference between themebox and sandpark. I simply said "sandbox/sandpark" because these games differ a lot from themepark MMOs. I did not say "sandbox/sandpark/themebox" because sandpark and themebox are the same thing so it would be redundant.
You definitely said there is a difference.
You wrote:
"What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox/sandpark MMOs this is not an issue. The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase."
Content is the players is the Sand. Which is why you placed sandbox/sandpark in opposition to Theme and said the content is the players.
Did you even read Steven's quote? Or did you merely not understand it?
I said there is a difference between themepark and sandbox/sandpark. I did not say there is a difference between themebox and sandpark... smh
@Azherae Steven has used themebox and sandpark interchangeably because the terms are interchangeable. In that one specific quote he used themebox, but there are plenty of other circumstances where he describes AoC as a sandpark MMO. I actually cannot believe that this is an argument we're having.
I actually cannot believe that this is an argument we're having.
Now you know how I feel sometimes in discussions with a few people here!
And yeah, themebox and sandpark are each a portmanteau of themepark and sandbox, and as such both mean the same thing.
I am now waiting for someone to jump up and down complaining that neither of those words are any type of luggage, let alone a leather traveling bag - because that is the level of disingenuity we have around here at times.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited March 2022
Steven has used themebox and sandpark interchangeably the same as he has used Primary Archetype and class interchangeably.
CROW3 posted a bigass quote where Steven spells out the differences.
If you can't read that and comprehend the differences, that's on you.
Steven has used themebox and sandpark interchangeably the same as he has used Primary Archetype and class interchangeably.
CROW3 posted a bigass quote where Steven spells out the differences.
If you can't read that and comprehend the differences, that's on you.
I mean, the quote from Steven didn't talk about Sandparks at all.
It was the difference between themepark, sandbox and themebox that the quote was about - not themebox and sandpark. The term "sandpark" isn't even mentioned in the quote.
If you can't read that and comprehend the differences, that's on you.
Steven has used themebox and sandpark interchangeably the same as he has used Primary Archetype and class interchangeably.
CROW3 posted a bigass quote where Steven spells out the differences.
If you can't read that and comprehend the differences, that's on you.
As Noaani said, Steven did not spell out the difference between themebox and sandpark in that quote. He spelled out the difference between themepark, sandbox, and themebox... that still does not mean that themebox and sandpark are different things. You're really confused about the conversation at hand. Please go back and read everything and clear things up for yourself. It's really weird when you come here just to disagree even when you don't even know what we're talking about.
Players blow through content significantly faster than developers can realistically create engaging content.
I would say this is not true. Players do it for VERTICAL progression, but not horizontal. No one is there farming reputation, or crafting skills unless they gain something that gives them more power. Wow has billions things to do, but most of them don't give more power, so people don't do them.
Comments
I think one of the things that will enable progression to be stretched out is the respawn rates of world bosses. In the same way raid lockouts slow down player progression in other games, respawn rates can be adjusted to affect how fast players can get the best gear. Since these bosses are in the open world, they can only be killed and looted by one group each spawn. Combine that with the necessity for resources to repair gear as well as overenchanting and i think there will be a tier of progression that will take extremely long to progress through. Nodes also add another layer to this since they limit the content that is available. As time goes on and nodes change, so will the items that are available.
/sigh
I think my responses on this thread speak for themselves, regardless of your defensiveness.
Hahaha dude... the point is that there is no difference between Themebox and Sandpark... both terms refer to a mix between Sandbox and Themepark games... So you coming here to say that it's not Sandpark, but that it's instead Themebox is pointless because both terms mean the exact same thing so you are literally just here to disagree.
And no I'm not gonna share what I think is correct, because I know nobody is ever convinced by strangers on the internet, when it comes to fundamental and contentious stuff like this.
But this isn't real life. It doesn't work like that with video games when people have the simple option to just quit. Developers need to design good parameters.
It's a game that people choose to play, a little different than real life. Not sure who expects real life to be the same as a game or why you think a game needs to mimic real life. We are shooting magic spells at dragons for crying out loud.
Whole point of forums is to share opinions and even if you can't convince the person you talking to, readers could be swayed.
Heh. There are differences, particularly relative to the story being told, and the player's participation in that story. Ultimately, Ashes is probably going to be its own thing somewhere in that gray. The only reason I brought it up, is that 'themebox' is how Intrepid explicitly refers to their design direction.
Feel free to be aggrieved accordingly.
You wrote:
"What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox/sandpark MMOs this is not an issue.
The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase."
That quote is flawed.
The accurate version is:
"What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox MMOs this is not an issue.
The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase."
Ashes is a themebox/sandpark. Ashes has a mix of both dev curated "content" and players as "content".
But, Steven feels Ashes will have more of a focus on the theme than the sand.
People are not going to quit because they're losing to "casuals".
How is a hardcore going to know they are fighting a casual-time player?
At this point, what we're talking about is a gearscore gap.
But, time played is not a hard limit on acquisition of competitive gear.
We can Ashes to reward players adequately for time invested.
But, there are several ways people can skip over time obstacles - especially if you have hardcore time friends to help you do so.
This is so petty... Please go ahead and define the difference between Sandpark and Themebox. A clear definition that is accepted by the MMO community which clearly shows that the two are very different.
It's not as if Steven referred to AoC as both a Themebox and a Sandpark.
Steven literally explained it, and @CROW3 quoted it to you.
Like, he explained it EXACTLY.
There doesn't even need to be a separate definition that is 'largely agreed on', the Creative Director used and EXPLAINED a term in detail.
You are... more easily triggered than most people I know, and that's saying a lot.
There is the other one... was wondering how long it would take you to scratch the disagreement itch. I never said that there is a difference between themebox and sandpark. I simply said "sandbox/sandpark" because these games differ a lot from themepark MMOs. I did not say "sandbox/sandpark/themebox" because sandpark and themebox are the same thing so it would be redundant.
Steven also called AoC a sandpark MMO. What is the difference between the two if you are coming here to correct my calling AoC a sandpark as opposed to a themepark? If there is no difference between the two it doesn't matter.
Oh, no no, you're right, actually, I was able to find a point where Steven used the word sandpark once.
So I'll just presume that all his other detailed explanations, including a design description that can easily be contrasted with a potential opposite, and the whole pages and relative logic (that I must now assume only makes sense to me and maybe @CROW3 ) were irrelevant, since he DID admittedly use a term that doesn't have a consensus definition probably until Ashes is finished, at least one time.
Carry on.
Yep, some of the most important misconceptions OP has in his post that i criticized way back in page 4 is his Black and White Dicotomy mentality that refuse to see all the gray in between casuals and hardcore which also refuses to acknowledge Time-Efficient Casual players or Time-InefficientHardcore players.
I mean, i literally said this, back in page 2 but our man VmanGman got stunlocked with his 20-30% ideal and wasn't satisfied with Steven's 40-50%.
Aren't we all sinners?
Agreed. Well said, cousin.
Archeage managed to do it.
Sure, it was grundy, but you had your pick of ways to grind it out.
The game also had its issues with pay to win, but the basic itemization system could be copied over to a game without that monetization just fine.
For all the many reasons people left Archeage, I never once heard anyone leave because they felt there was jo longer any viable progression for them.
I can't say that about any other MMO that I can think of.
This is a fairly weak argument, honestly.
First, as pointed out, Ashes isn't an outright sandbox MMO. This is a good thing, because it wouldn't survive as one.
Second, even if it were a sandbox MMO, people still need a reason to fight, and the only reason that has ever been successful is personal progression. Cut off that personal progression, and you stop giving players a reason to fight, or to be fought, or to log in.
I'm unsure of your last statement that people will always have meaningful progress to make in a game like Ashes. They can only have progress to make if the game has a path for them to progress down. If the game has a path for them to progress down, then those that progress down that path faster will be at an advantage over those that don't.
It is logical that you can't have both continual progression, and a narrow gap between those that progress and those that don't.
A game can pick one or the other.
Thank you. You said what I've been thinking perfectly.
Every time I see the title of this thread it irritates the crap out of me. "Protecting our Casuals". Like all casuals are delicate little flowers that need to be swaddled in bubble wrap and have everything handed to us because we can't do anything for ourselves or figure anything out on our own. Maybe I'm the only one who feels that ways, I don't know.
It's great to be concerned about the game being balanced and for it to be enjoyable to its player base. It's a good conversation to have. But you need to watch out for blanket generalizations. Few things in live are either/or, most are "and".
You wrote:
"What you are describing is an issue in theme park MMOs. In sandbox/sandpark MMOs this is not an issue. The content is the players and events they bring forward not the necessarily the gear you chase."
Content is the players is the Sand. Which is why you placed sandbox/sandpark in opposition to Theme and said the content is the players.
Did you even read Steven's quote? Or did you merely not understand it?
I said there is a difference between themepark and sandbox/sandpark. I did not say there is a difference between themebox and sandpark... smh
@Azherae Steven has used themebox and sandpark interchangeably because the terms are interchangeable. In that one specific quote he used themebox, but there are plenty of other circumstances where he describes AoC as a sandpark MMO. I actually cannot believe that this is an argument we're having.
Now you know how I feel sometimes in discussions with a few people here!
And yeah, themebox and sandpark are each a portmanteau of themepark and sandbox, and as such both mean the same thing.
I am now waiting for someone to jump up and down complaining that neither of those words are any type of luggage, let alone a leather traveling bag - because that is the level of disingenuity we have around here at times.
CROW3 posted a bigass quote where Steven spells out the differences.
If you can't read that and comprehend the differences, that's on you.
I mean, the quote from Steven didn't talk about Sandparks at all.
It was the difference between themepark, sandbox and themebox that the quote was about - not themebox and sandpark. The term "sandpark" isn't even mentioned in the quote.
If you can't read that and comprehend the differences, that's on you.
As Noaani said, Steven did not spell out the difference between themebox and sandpark in that quote. He spelled out the difference between themepark, sandbox, and themebox... that still does not mean that themebox and sandpark are different things. You're really confused about the conversation at hand. Please go back and read everything and clear things up for yourself. It's really weird when you come here just to disagree even when you don't even know what we're talking about.