Spontaneous open world pvp was never close to being fair, the most fair open world pvp is always around open world pvp objectives, because you expect for pvp to happen then you can prepare or at least be alert to it.
The spontaneous pvp is going to be discouraged by the corruption system, but even then I worry about a backwards griefing (like low lvls jumping between high lvl player and a mob to get killed and flagging the player for corruption)
And even then - open world mmo pvp is based around real life pvp where you use anything to create unfair advantage - like more numbers, better equipment, better funding (that could be in the form of spoil share with another guild) etc
What I want to say is that it is pointless to try and balance open world and the balance should be focused group vs group pvp around objectives. Just accept the oneshots people
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
A non-combatant cannot jump between a mob and another player and get killed.
I mean we could quote Steven again and say this game is not for everyone. This game isn't being made to spoon feed people good characters. Time investment matters.
When did I say that the game needs to be made to spoon feed people? When did I say that the game needs to be for everyone?
You understand that the game will not survive or have very few funds for more content without casuals, right?
Steven has already said that the game is already funded to the completion by him and the other founders, there is no board, so they don't need funds for more content from "casuals". Steven is and has been a "Hardcore" MMO player, and his vision for this game isn't centered on keeping casual players interested. If you go and watch his interview with TimTheTatMan, he plainly states that he is against MMO's that hand out "participation trophies". By saying that he means that there is going to be no welfare epics. You will know by an icon on your enemy when you click on them what gear they are wearing and how strong they are.. If you see this and know that they are too strong for you to fight... Move on and don't take that specific fight. You have the ability in this game to pick and choose your battles. If you're casual just don't take the fights you know you can't win.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
"Traditionally in MMORPGs you're going to see a larger population of casual players than you do of hardcore players; and that's just the way the cookie crumbles from a population standpoint. And because of that and the way that nodes collect experience and advance as a result of player activity, those casual players will actually have more impact on node progression than the hardcore players will: at least as I predict, because of the sheer quantity disproportionate between the two different groups of people... You may see in Ashes the smaller hardcore group of players progress further into the late-game content, right. But they don't have the numbers to influence the nodes in those locations as quickly as the more casual... larger population has near the outskirts."
---Steven Sharif
Again, casual v hardcore does not inherently dictate what gear a player character can wear.
My man. When did I say that hardcore players shouldn’t be rewarded for their time? Please reread the post and come back. @Swifts
so everyone responding to you is misunderstanding your point? cuz this entire thread is essentially you saying gear shouldnt matter... people telling you it should... and then you saying we dont get it
Shouldn't matter as much.
For instance in a 1vs1 scenario. With 50% power from gear, the higher gear score player may make up to 5 mistakes and still win vs the lower gear score. With 30% power from gear, the higher gear score player may only make 3 mistakes in order to win vs the lower gear score player. Just some random numbers but you get what am trying to say.
OP still wants the higher gear score player to have an advantage but not so much you could play like shit and still win.
In reality, we don't know how much 50% or 30% actually is. How many mistakes can you actually afford to make with these gear-power levels? I can't tell until we actually get to test the combat system.
You cannot use 1v1 as an example. Steven himself said that there is no meta in this game. that the game is balanced for 8v8, and in 1v1 scenarios there are going to be classes that just can't beat certain classes. If you want 1v1 combat you'll be in the arenas.
One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.
People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.
Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.
I agree with the sentiment but I think you're going about it the wrong way. For a casual, or even just someone with lesser skill, gear can help bridge a skill gap. I'd suggest Intrepid go about this casual gearing issue another way - make it relatively easy to get gear that will be competitive, and have gear that gives you that extra 5-10% be the stuff you really grind for.
I mean...
Ashes is balanced for 8-person groups. Seems easy enough for casual-time players to be in a group with hardcore-time players. Also, seems easy enough for them to have helpful friends who are hardcore-time players... even if they aren't all in a formal group.
In Ashes, power will likely be determined by Level, points in Passive Skills, points in Active Skills, points in Weapon Skills, Armor, Weapon(s), Augments and Enchantments.
Casual-time players can still make friends with other citizens who can help them acquire the gear they need.
I don't think we should be worried about gear overpowering the other factors that provide characters with power - until we play/test and determine that the devs need to re-balance their design.
I assume that you've played MMOs before. You are aware that most hardcore players will play with other hardcore players... that's just the nature of the genre and the community. Casuals will not be easily welcomed into hardcore 8 man groups. So your suggestion does not work.
Players also won't always be in a full 8 man party. Let's not forget that people will be in small groups or even solo a lot of the time.
I agree with the sentiment but I think you're going about it the wrong way. For a casual, or even just someone with lesser skill, gear can help bridge a skill gap. I'd suggest Intrepid go about this casual gearing issue another way - make it relatively easy to get gear that will be competitive, and have gear that gives you that extra 5-10% be the stuff you really grind for.
for a casual gear almost never bridges the gap - on the contrary it only widens it, because skillfull players tend to way more efficient with their ingame time than the rest of the population and thus acquire better gear faster. The only scenario when what you say can possibly happen is when the game is at least a few months old and a new high skill players begins to play the game - which makes your scenario extreme rarity
Players also won't always be in a full 8 man party. Let's not forget that people will be in small groups or even solo a lot of the time.
depends on the content people are doing - if they have a goal in mind - like clearing a dungeon then you bet that ppl will just bring along almost anyone to have 8 warm bodies in there.
Also in the open world you will see some players group up for certain things, but that hardly qualifies as a party, because those players grouped up because of friendship and thus pursuing similar or even same goals. While on the other hand you have only the spontaneous grouping in open world when the group usually starts dissolving very quickly when the member goals start to diverge
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It s an MMORPG, gear should have an major impact, people care to much by a casual but a casual player never will beat an player that play all day even in terms of skill or gear... League doesn't have gear but a casual will get destroyed vs a pro that play 10 hours per day so this discussion is pointless...
I completely agree with this. Gear is important and time spent in game is also important. If I spent 30+ hrs trying to get a boss level gear set and I finally obtain it, I don't want to be at the same level as someone who only spent 2 hrs playing and has average green level armor.
PVP in arenas is an easy fix for evening out hardcore and casuals since the whole point of PVP is testing skills against each other. You can easily set a default and/or max level for players fighting against each other. For example, lets say a casual has a gs of 320 and a hardcore player has one of 560. You can default the casual up to 400 and max the gs of someone above at 500 so when they play, the difference is only 100 vs 240. Anybody at a gs inbetween those levels stays the same. That way, even at a difference of 100gs, a casual can overcome the difference with enough skill. I'm picking these numbers randomly to prove a point. The developers would have to determine what gs difference would be acceptable to overcome to make the fight skill based.
On another note, In the open world, if I'm a casual with a gs of 320 and I encounter someone who is much higher, I don't want to have the ability to put up a fight. They will slaughter me and I better run if I don't want that. In the early days, WoW did that well and I had a blast when I saw someone with a skull for lvls. That told me that I better get the heck out of there. And honestly, the rush of running for my life was quite the fun experience. Eventually I got to the point where I was the high level and I saw those with lower levels running for their lives. Higher levels also came to the rescue when a higher level of a different faction was spotted. It was fun and all players respected others enough not to make a miserable gaming experience for each other by continually killing lower leveled players. I would kill a few that tried to make a stand, to show my superiority , then I left to go do something else. Other players did the same.
I guess my whole point is that casuals should be able to enjoy all parts of gameplay but it shouldn't be the same as how hardcores enjoy it. If someone spends 16 hrs a day to get the end level and they have the gear to support it, well, a casual spending much less time won't experience the same thing for a while. Thats the whole point of an MMORPG. You spend time leveling up your character, increasing stats, getting better gear, fighting tougher bosses. That is the reward for all the time spent. And I don't think someone who has lots of money should be able to get the same experience with a fraction of the time. If you dont' have the time to play an MMO, find another game or accept the fact that you'll experience the same content at a much slower pace.
I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.
One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.
People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.
Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.
Ashes will be a game that turns casuals into hardcore players. Who needs a gf when this comes out? I sure won't. But seriously pleading to strip down systems to cater to casuals isn't going to get you anywhere here. You should be rewarded for time spent not the other way around. Also hardcore players will reach max level far sooner than casuals and by that time be well on their way in gear progression by the time casuals enter that stage. How can you ask to be competitive when that happens? How boring do you want gear progression to be? How is that healthy for the game?
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
One big concern I have for AoC is that gear will end up providing too much power. AoC is already a game that will greatly reward those who play a lot which is why I believe that it is imperative for gear to only account for at most 20-30% of a character's power.
People will enjoy grinding out their gear even if each piece gives small increments of power increase. These small increments of power increase will allow the bulk of the population to not feel like they are so out geared that they cannot even come close to competing. This is very important because when those casual players will die over and over to a hardcore player that severely outgears them without any chance of fighting back, they will be very likely to just quit. Hardcore players will have other advantages (gold, skill, etc.) anyway because they play a lot more and there is no reason to further widen the gap between casual and hardcore players.
Please understand that I am not against rewarding those who invest more time into the game. I am just suggesting that their reward should not create such a great disparity between them and casual players. I truly believe that this can greatly help the health of the game and its population.
Ashes will be a game that turns casuals into hardcore players. Who needs a gf when this comes out? I sure won't. But seriously pleading to strip down systems to cater to casuals isn't going to get you anywhere here. You should be rewarded for time spent not the other way around. Also hardcore players will reach max level far sooner than casuals and by that time be well on their way in gear progression by the time casuals enter that stage. How can you ask to be competitive when that happens? How boring do you want gear progression to be? How is that healthy for the game?
It would be so helpful if people actually read the post.
I believe the node system in AoC offers the way that this issue can be addressed. The issue is not really about "casuals" and "hardcore", its about new and old players to the game. A game must never be hostile to new players but the nature of an mmo is power progression since you want ALL your players, including max-level ones to know that they can always log into the game and progress their character.
If all max-lvl players compete in a limited amount of zones regardless of having been playing for years or being brand new, then its going to suck for those new players until they catch up enough to compete. Here I am only including things like caravans and similar activities that allow a new max-lvl player make money and gear up when talking about competition. Things like castle-sieges, world-bosses or any other top-end activity are not things a brand new max-lvl player should be able to compete in.
AoC will have nodes that can be lvled up which means that zones with max-lvl mobs are not limited since another one can be leveled up. If we have 6 node levels and assume that level 4 has max-lvl mobs with the last 2 levels having tougher elite mobs then new and older players are never in competion with each other. A new player simply gears up in lvl 4-5 nodes with similarly geared players until they can compete in lvl 6 nodes.
I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.
How did I get dragged back into this? But, may as well stick my toe back into the mud-hole.... I will inform the OP of a quote from Steven "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."
Gman, I have read everything you and others have said on the first page but not the other 16+ so take my comments with that in mind.
It seems to me that you are concerned about being able to enjoy the game in a way that also allows casual players to be competitive in other aspects of the game. It seems to me that your answer to this concern is to moderate gear efficacy and gear attainability so that casual players (who otherwise would not be able to attain this super crazy elite top level gear) can defend themselves and also contribute to the world in a meaningful way. Would this be correct?
Assuming yes, here's my suggestion and a little TLDR to preface:
TLDR: I acknowledge where you're coming from but I believe your focus is on a micro scale based on a macro problem and fear of not enjoying the game based on prior mmo experiences you've had. I try to explain why I see it this way and give you background to expand your focus as I think that is more productive than hard anchoring yourself on one aspect of the game. Important factors that I dive into include skill/talent/experience, guilds, and your own resilience to pvp in games.
While your concern and worry is reasonable, you seem to be fixated on one aspect of a characters power. In other words, you want to hard cap something because from your perspective in the OP and on the first page, you believe that doing so would help maintain an ecosystem if you will, that casual players can best contribute in and also feel effective.
The truth of the matter is that even if the gear was 100% the same in power, a hardcore player who dedicates their time in this game enough to be able to clear the hardest of hard content will generally have a substantially better grasp on the game, their cooldowns, their strengths and weaknesses, and will have devoted a lot more time to practicing the game aspects that they enjoy. This means that in a 1 v 1 situation with everything else being equal except for experience, skill, and talent, the hardcore player will win nearly all the time. In essence, you're asking a top 200 tennis pro to play a match against a semi-pro try-hard. In these situations, the pro will win unless the semi-pro is exceptionally talented and on the up and up.
So, now give the pro your 20% additional armor power. No contest in a 1 v 1. Therefore, it's important to broaden your view of what constitutes game balance and game fairness. Games, unlike life, have the capacity to impose rules to make things more fair, but as I'm sure you can admit, even with all rules the same, playtime, dedication, practice, and attention to detail can in and of themselves create a vast breadth of capability.
In addition to that, you are trying to focus on maybe 5-10% of a server and truth is that the absolute hardest content will supposedly be conquerable by even a smaller percentage. With thousands of people on a server over hundreds of square kilometers, do you still believe that gear power that less than 10% of a server will possess is going to be the deciding factor in this games enjoyment by a casual? If you do, I urge you to take a step back and consider the size of the world, the ways to enjoy the game, the amount of content that everyone will be able to enjoy, and most importantly, how teamwork and friendships themselves will be able to overcome this concern of yours without any other factor being added.
Case in point: most guilds have "core" members. These are your everyday players who dedicate their time and energy to the guild as much as their own personal advancement. These folks don't hold a casual player to the same standard when it comes to guild contribution (and if they do, as a casual that might not be a good guild environment for you). These "core" members of any guild are usually your most advanced members and you might even have a few hardcore elites in your group. Thus, if Ashes manifests the way it's supposed to (in a multi-player, primarily co-op oriented fashion) your concern of getting targeted by the most powerful characters and feeling useless should essentially be negated. The corruption system should take care of anyone griefing you, and your guild should back you up should such a thing occur regardless of corruption system. No one can promise it will never happen, but the system is being designed in a way that you should have minimal exposure to this type of griefing. If ultimately, you are unwilling to accept a small chance that this will happen or simply are averse to experiencing this at all, then perhaps playing an MMO with PVP might not be for you - and that's ok!
So, if you've read all that, my question to you is: Do you still feel gear score/power is where the hard focus should be or do you think it's a substantially larger issue that just needs to be designed in a way where it is only one of many factors that influence your interactions in the game?
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.
How did I get dragged back into this? But, may as well stick my toe back into the mud-hole.... I will inform the OP of a quote from Steven "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."
You dragged yourself back into this when you affirmed a comment that was making accusations to things I never said. I completely agree that not everybody is going to be winner and that that’s ok. What I don’t agree with is someone having an insurmountable gear power advantage just because they have more free time.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@raeyik Yes, you make a good point regarding the fact that the game is designed for only a small minority being able to achieve the best gear which means that you won’t come across them at every turn. But even so, when you do come across them, I believe that their gear power level shouldn’t be an insurmountable obstacle. They should clearly have the advantage, but not make it silly where they will destroy you just because their fireball hits twice as hard as yours and they have twice as much health as you.
Also, you as well as many others seem to think that when I say casual I mean PvE player. There are plenty of casual players who are here for the PvP and ready to fight. It’s just a matter of whether they can stand a chance or not.
Now i read a lot of your discussion that does not lead to an end or an outcome.
Maybe the problem can be tackled in a differet way by simply making the time to kill longer over all.
That will lead to a higher impact of skill.
An possibility would be to grant casuals (lower geared players) some extra resilience value in PVP situations to give them a chance (leads to a higher time to kill) but not increasing thier damage.
Anyway in big fights it will matter if our grp is organized and has the right mix of roles in it (without heal even the best geared player with the highest skill will simply loose too).
But i think we all are ok with the fact that skill and organization have to be rewarded.
And to be honest people who play a lot will be be better in average (skill and orga).
One tip for casuals (now i am one too) take a ranged class.
[Fleo Verum] Carolus Dynamicus - Py'rai - Rogue+Fighter
I think you are looking at this from a current MMO point of view. Since crafted gear is useless in most MMOs casuals had to go through the same hoops as all players. In AoC, being in a guild that has a set of crafters could help with casuals catching up.
@VmanGman - Sorry about the PvP assumption. It's just that in general (not always) it seems that gear concerns end up being PvP concerns. Often times (not always) those PvP concerns tend to come from people who are less comfortable with PvP or generally aren't comfortable with that sort of conflict in their gaming experience. That's the reason I went there with that aspect of my reply to you.
I do agree with your concern over gear being too powerful. I believe that your intent is good - you want everyone to be able to enjoy as much of the game together/individually as possible. I think most players want a balanced system where gear is not the only factor and I believe that Ashes of Creation has heard that message clearly - it's just a matter of making it all come together on paper as well as in real time.
I also agree with there needing to be a place to have these discussions so it's great that the team for this game monitors and reads the forums. I think the hardest thing for such a diverse audience is finding ways to have productive conversations that lead to innovation instead of a cyclical conversation where people just reiterate their points over and over without listening and moving forward together towards a solution.
I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.
How did I get dragged back into this? But, may as well stick my toe back into the mud-hole.... I will inform the OP of a quote from Steven "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."
You dragged yourself back into this when you affirmed a comment that was making accusations to things I never said.
I wanna die.... it was a 20 paragraph novella... which I only skimmed... but still seemed well written... I have no other defense....
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.
How did I get dragged back into this? But, may as well stick my toe back into the mud-hole.... I will inform the OP of a quote from Steven "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."
You dragged yourself back into this when you affirmed a comment that was making accusations to things I never said.
I wanna die.... it was a 20 paragraph novella... which I only skimmed... but still seemed well written... I have no other defense....
You put your stamp of approval on it… welcome to the real world. If you state that you agree with something and show support for it, you can be “dragged into it”. Sorry that I didn’t know you just skimmed and didn’t actually agree with it?
What I don’t agree with is someone having an insurmountable gear power advantage just because they have more free time.
The issue with this is that I is inevitable.
If I have 20 hours a week to spend on the game and you have 15 minutes, that is and should be an insurmountable advantage that I have over you.
There should literally be nothing at all you can do in that situation - other than spend more time in the game.
Don’t take things out of context. My statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week would never be expected to even ever make it to max level. That’s not even considered a MMORPG target audience.
I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.
I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.
Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for.
If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line?
The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go.
Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started.
So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me?
You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact.
The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time.
How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player.
And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win.
What I don’t agree with is someone having an insurmountable gear power advantage just because they have more free time.
The issue with this is that I is inevitable.
If I have 20 hours a week to spend on the game and you have 15 minutes, that is and should be an insurmountable advantage that I have over you.
There should literally be nothing at all you can do in that situation - other than spend more time in the game.
Don’t take things out of context. My statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week would never be expected to even ever make it to max level. That’s not even considered a MMORPG target audience.
I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.
You based your definitions of hardcore and casual primarily on time spent being productive, so their reasoning is perfectly sound. Why should someone who chooses not to maintain at least an average gear rating be competitive against a player that maintains the highest gear rating? At that point, their lack of combat efficiency was an active choice on the casual’s part.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.
Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for.
If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line?
The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go.
Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started.
So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me?
You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact.
The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time.
How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player.
And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win.
As I explained above, my statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week is not a MMORPG target audience. Also, I t’s not an arbitrary line. Developers get paid to figure this stuff out… their job is to figure out how they’re designing the game and progression so that a casual can achieve stuff in game…
You get so bogged down on things that aren’t even being discussed. Of course that the way you spend your time matters, but we’re assuming that when we say casual vs hardcore, both players are working towards progressing their character.
I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.
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The spontaneous pvp is going to be discouraged by the corruption system, but even then I worry about a backwards griefing (like low lvls jumping between high lvl player and a mob to get killed and flagging the player for corruption)
And even then - open world mmo pvp is based around real life pvp where you use anything to create unfair advantage - like more numbers, better equipment, better funding (that could be in the form of spoil share with another guild) etc
What I want to say is that it is pointless to try and balance open world and the balance should be focused group vs group pvp around objectives. Just accept the oneshots people
― Plato
― Plato
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP
Non-forced attacks (such as AoE) will not hit non-combatant players.[105]
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Definition:Forced_attack
Steven has already said that the game is already funded to the completion by him and the other founders, there is no board, so they don't need funds for more content from "casuals". Steven is and has been a "Hardcore" MMO player, and his vision for this game isn't centered on keeping casual players interested. If you go and watch his interview with TimTheTatMan, he plainly states that he is against MMO's that hand out "participation trophies". By saying that he means that there is going to be no welfare epics. You will know by an icon on your enemy when you click on them what gear they are wearing and how strong they are.. If you see this and know that they are too strong for you to fight... Move on and don't take that specific fight. You have the ability in this game to pick and choose your battles. If you're casual just don't take the fights you know you can't win.
---Steven Sharif
Again, casual v hardcore does not inherently dictate what gear a player character can wear.
You cannot use 1v1 as an example. Steven himself said that there is no meta in this game. that the game is balanced for 8v8, and in 1v1 scenarios there are going to be classes that just can't beat certain classes. If you want 1v1 combat you'll be in the arenas.
I agree with the sentiment but I think you're going about it the wrong way. For a casual, or even just someone with lesser skill, gear can help bridge a skill gap. I'd suggest Intrepid go about this casual gearing issue another way - make it relatively easy to get gear that will be competitive, and have gear that gives you that extra 5-10% be the stuff you really grind for.
Players also won't always be in a full 8 man party. Let's not forget that people will be in small groups or even solo a lot of the time.
for a casual gear almost never bridges the gap - on the contrary it only widens it, because skillfull players tend to way more efficient with their ingame time than the rest of the population and thus acquire better gear faster. The only scenario when what you say can possibly happen is when the game is at least a few months old and a new high skill players begins to play the game - which makes your scenario extreme rarity
depends on the content people are doing - if they have a goal in mind - like clearing a dungeon then you bet that ppl will just bring along almost anyone to have 8 warm bodies in there.
Also in the open world you will see some players group up for certain things, but that hardly qualifies as a party, because those players grouped up because of friendship and thus pursuing similar or even same goals. While on the other hand you have only the spontaneous grouping in open world when the group usually starts dissolving very quickly when the member goals start to diverge
― Plato
@Caww
I never said that someone who plays 30+ hours week should be on the same level as someone who plays 2 hours a week. We are also not talking about levels… we’re talking about gear.
Ashes will be a game that turns casuals into hardcore players. Who needs a gf when this comes out? I sure won't. But seriously pleading to strip down systems to cater to casuals isn't going to get you anywhere here. You should be rewarded for time spent not the other way around. Also hardcore players will reach max level far sooner than casuals and by that time be well on their way in gear progression by the time casuals enter that stage. How can you ask to be competitive when that happens? How boring do you want gear progression to be? How is that healthy for the game?
It would be so helpful if people actually read the post.
If all max-lvl players compete in a limited amount of zones regardless of having been playing for years or being brand new, then its going to suck for those new players until they catch up enough to compete. Here I am only including things like caravans and similar activities that allow a new max-lvl player make money and gear up when talking about competition. Things like castle-sieges, world-bosses or any other top-end activity are not things a brand new max-lvl player should be able to compete in.
AoC will have nodes that can be lvled up which means that zones with max-lvl mobs are not limited since another one can be leveled up. If we have 6 node levels and assume that level 4 has max-lvl mobs with the last 2 levels having tougher elite mobs then new and older players are never in competion with each other. A new player simply gears up in lvl 4-5 nodes with similarly geared players until they can compete in lvl 6 nodes.
Vanish and run TF away haha
https://discord.gg/Rs5cwrYwst
How did I get dragged back into this? But, may as well stick my toe back into the mud-hole.... I will inform the OP of a quote from Steven "Not everybody's going to be a winner and that's okay."
It seems to me that you are concerned about being able to enjoy the game in a way that also allows casual players to be competitive in other aspects of the game. It seems to me that your answer to this concern is to moderate gear efficacy and gear attainability so that casual players (who otherwise would not be able to attain this super crazy elite top level gear) can defend themselves and also contribute to the world in a meaningful way. Would this be correct?
Assuming yes, here's my suggestion and a little TLDR to preface:
TLDR: I acknowledge where you're coming from but I believe your focus is on a micro scale based on a macro problem and fear of not enjoying the game based on prior mmo experiences you've had. I try to explain why I see it this way and give you background to expand your focus as I think that is more productive than hard anchoring yourself on one aspect of the game. Important factors that I dive into include skill/talent/experience, guilds, and your own resilience to pvp in games.
While your concern and worry is reasonable, you seem to be fixated on one aspect of a characters power. In other words, you want to hard cap something because from your perspective in the OP and on the first page, you believe that doing so would help maintain an ecosystem if you will, that casual players can best contribute in and also feel effective.
The truth of the matter is that even if the gear was 100% the same in power, a hardcore player who dedicates their time in this game enough to be able to clear the hardest of hard content will generally have a substantially better grasp on the game, their cooldowns, their strengths and weaknesses, and will have devoted a lot more time to practicing the game aspects that they enjoy. This means that in a 1 v 1 situation with everything else being equal except for experience, skill, and talent, the hardcore player will win nearly all the time. In essence, you're asking a top 200 tennis pro to play a match against a semi-pro try-hard. In these situations, the pro will win unless the semi-pro is exceptionally talented and on the up and up.
So, now give the pro your 20% additional armor power. No contest in a 1 v 1. Therefore, it's important to broaden your view of what constitutes game balance and game fairness. Games, unlike life, have the capacity to impose rules to make things more fair, but as I'm sure you can admit, even with all rules the same, playtime, dedication, practice, and attention to detail can in and of themselves create a vast breadth of capability.
In addition to that, you are trying to focus on maybe 5-10% of a server and truth is that the absolute hardest content will supposedly be conquerable by even a smaller percentage. With thousands of people on a server over hundreds of square kilometers, do you still believe that gear power that less than 10% of a server will possess is going to be the deciding factor in this games enjoyment by a casual? If you do, I urge you to take a step back and consider the size of the world, the ways to enjoy the game, the amount of content that everyone will be able to enjoy, and most importantly, how teamwork and friendships themselves will be able to overcome this concern of yours without any other factor being added.
Case in point: most guilds have "core" members. These are your everyday players who dedicate their time and energy to the guild as much as their own personal advancement. These folks don't hold a casual player to the same standard when it comes to guild contribution (and if they do, as a casual that might not be a good guild environment for you). These "core" members of any guild are usually your most advanced members and you might even have a few hardcore elites in your group. Thus, if Ashes manifests the way it's supposed to (in a multi-player, primarily co-op oriented fashion) your concern of getting targeted by the most powerful characters and feeling useless should essentially be negated. The corruption system should take care of anyone griefing you, and your guild should back you up should such a thing occur regardless of corruption system. No one can promise it will never happen, but the system is being designed in a way that you should have minimal exposure to this type of griefing. If ultimately, you are unwilling to accept a small chance that this will happen or simply are averse to experiencing this at all, then perhaps playing an MMO with PVP might not be for you - and that's ok!
So, if you've read all that, my question to you is: Do you still feel gear score/power is where the hard focus should be or do you think it's a substantially larger issue that just needs to be designed in a way where it is only one of many factors that influence your interactions in the game?
You dragged yourself back into this when you affirmed a comment that was making accusations to things I never said. I completely agree that not everybody is going to be winner and that that’s ok. What I don’t agree with is someone having an insurmountable gear power advantage just because they have more free time.
Also, you as well as many others seem to think that when I say casual I mean PvE player. There are plenty of casual players who are here for the PvP and ready to fight. It’s just a matter of whether they can stand a chance or not.
Maybe the problem can be tackled in a differet way by simply making the time to kill longer over all.
That will lead to a higher impact of skill.
An possibility would be to grant casuals (lower geared players) some extra resilience value in PVP situations to give them a chance (leads to a higher time to kill) but not increasing thier damage.
Anyway in big fights it will matter if our grp is organized and has the right mix of roles in it (without heal even the best geared player with the highest skill will simply loose too).
But i think we all are ok with the fact that skill and organization have to be rewarded.
And to be honest people who play a lot will be be better in average (skill and orga).
One tip for casuals (now i am one too) take a ranged class.
I do agree with your concern over gear being too powerful. I believe that your intent is good - you want everyone to be able to enjoy as much of the game together/individually as possible. I think most players want a balanced system where gear is not the only factor and I believe that Ashes of Creation has heard that message clearly - it's just a matter of making it all come together on paper as well as in real time.
I also agree with there needing to be a place to have these discussions so it's great that the team for this game monitors and reads the forums. I think the hardest thing for such a diverse audience is finding ways to have productive conversations that lead to innovation instead of a cyclical conversation where people just reiterate their points over and over without listening and moving forward together towards a solution.
I wanna die.... it was a 20 paragraph novella... which I only skimmed... but still seemed well written... I have no other defense....
You put your stamp of approval on it… welcome to the real world. If you state that you agree with something and show support for it, you can be “dragged into it”. Sorry that I didn’t know you just skimmed and didn’t actually agree with it?
The issue with this is that I is inevitable.
If I have 20 hours a week to spend on the game and you have 15 minutes, that is and should be an insurmountable advantage that I have over you.
There should literally be nothing at all you can do in that situation - other than spend more time in the game.
Don’t take things out of context. My statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week would never be expected to even ever make it to max level. That’s not even considered a MMORPG target audience.
I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.
Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for.
If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line?
The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go.
Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started.
So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me?
You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact.
The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time.
How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player.
And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win.
You based your definitions of hardcore and casual primarily on time spent being productive, so their reasoning is perfectly sound. Why should someone who chooses not to maintain at least an average gear rating be competitive against a player that maintains the highest gear rating? At that point, their lack of combat efficiency was an active choice on the casual’s part.
As I explained above, my statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week is not a MMORPG target audience. Also, I t’s not an arbitrary line. Developers get paid to figure this stuff out… their job is to figure out how they’re designing the game and progression so that a casual can achieve stuff in game…
You get so bogged down on things that aren’t even being discussed. Of course that the way you spend your time matters, but we’re assuming that when we say casual vs hardcore, both players are working towards progressing their character.
I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.
@Caeryl