I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.
Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for.
If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line?
The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go.
Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started.
So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me?
You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact.
The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time.
How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player.
And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win.
As I explained above, my statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week is not a MMORPG target audience. Also, I t’s not an arbitrary line. Developers get paid to figure this stuff out… their job is to figure out how they’re designing the game and progression so that a casual can achieve stuff in game…
You get so bogged down on things that aren’t even being discussed. Of course that the way you spend your time matters, but we’re assuming that when we say casual vs hardcore, both players are working towards progressing their character.
I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.
Just use the 'industry standard' values here, @VmanGman .
I'll try to find the precise source of these numbers for you if it turns out that detractors reject them, but:
Casual: 2-3 hours, 2-3 times a week, with those blocks normally not all in one, or heavily organized.
Hardcore: 3.5+ hours almost every day, usually with organized guild or group events
You can split further, into 'Time Casual', and 'Time Hardcore', 'Challenge Casual', 'Challenge Hardcore', but it's often a correlation based on how many organized events and the difficulty/reward ratio of those events that they can do. This isn't a good way to deal with it in more diverse games usually, though, because most players who spend 3.5+ hours will usually be strong enough in SOME aspect that if they have social bonds they can leverage that time-power through their influence on others. (e.g. crafters affecting economies or guild strength without ever being able to attend events).
In general, in my experience, other games are designed logarithmically, each 'tier of power' requires 2x as much investment as the previous, until you hit the 'cap' of 16h per day' (you know there are such people) at which point the differentiators are group organization and luck. Depending on the game, those factors are more important than time spent, as well. Up to the individual how they feel about that.
So, an 'inbetween' player, who plays in organized events with guild daily for 2h, would be one tier of 'strength and gear' below a 'hardcore' player who plays in organized events with guild daily for 2h and then crafts for 2h, assuming other factors of guild strength and organization being equal (you can even assume that they are in the same guild and attend the same types of events, and the 'hardcore' player just has the extra 2h for focused personal Artisan gains)
Obviously my experience with this progression is biased because I probably just quit all the games where 'playing twice as much made you 5x as strong', so don't take that one as having any meaning, throw in your own.
I'll find the studies to back up the numbers for you sometime today though.
The next problem "entitled casuals" will complain about is that their guild is not big enough, strong enough or organized enough to obtain the drops required for better gear. They will then say since they can't spend the time or just can't get their act together and they really are hobbled, they need an extra advantage from the devs because, it's only fair to get something for next to nothing.
Now, I'm not saying anybody in this long, drawn-out post would ever say so, but it does seem realistic that somebody will blame their lack of game time and their weak guild for being pummeled every-time they step out of their house. Just saying.. no finger-pointing...
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The next problem "entitled casuals" will complain about is that their guild is not big enough, strong enough or organized enough to obtain the drops required for better gear. They will then say since they can't spend the time or just can't get their act together and they really are hobbled, they need an extra advantage from the devs because, it's only fair to get something for next to nothing.
Now, I'm not saying anybody in this long, drawn-out post would ever say so, but it does seem realistic that somebody will blame their lack of game time and their weak guild for being pummeled every-time they step out of their house. Just saying.. no finger-pointing...
That’s the whole point of this post… if the gear power difference between a hardcore player and a casual player will not be an insurmountable power gap, then casuals who complain about what you just said above will be simply told that their gear is strong enough to be competitive and that the game doesn’t need to spoon feed them. But that’s the key… their gear needs to be competitive and not present an insurmountable barrier.
Edit: Quick edit for all the people who claim that I’m asking for equal gear… I’m not. Being competitive and not being faced with an insurmountable power gap is not the same as being equal. Remember, you can still be the big hardcore player who is better at the game… you don’t need an insurmountable gear power gap to assert your dominance.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Meh - again...
Casual players don't have to only acquire gear on their own.
Especially if they are in a guild.
So...I dunno why people keep harping on casual time v hardcore time.
That is not insurmountable.
I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages.
I'm not.
I am arguing for reasonable gear progression.
You simply can not have reasonable gear progression without casual players facing an insurmountable gap. If the gap between someone that runs even 10 dungeons a week (a lot for a casual player) and someone that runs 100 is able to be bridged, then the game does not have reasonable gear progression.
There is no fantastical middle ground where both exist.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Meh - again...
Casual players don't have to only acquire gear on their own.
Especially if they are in a guild.
So...I dunno why people keep harping on casual time v hardcore time.
That is not insurmountable.
It would be helpful if you understood the conversation before commenting.
No one said that casual players would need to acquire gear on their own. Also, the insurmountability is referring to the gear power difference and not the time.
It’s undeniable that a hardcore player will have better gear than a casual player. The entire point of the conversation is regarding how big the gear power difference is between that hardcore player and the casual player… we’re 17 pages into this… come on now. Pay attention.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages.
I'm not.
I am arguing for reasonable gear progression.
You simply can not have reasonable gear progression without casual players facing an insurmountable gap. If the gap between someone that runs even 10 dungeons a week (a lot for a casual player) and someone that runs 100 is able to be bridged, then the game does not have reasonable gear progression.
There is no fantastical middle ground where both exist.
Reasonableness is a very subjective thing. In my opinion each tier giving 5% (maybe more depending on how many tiers there are) power increase is perfectly reasonable. In your opinion it might not be.
The bottom line, is that if you have played games that revolve a lot of their content around PvP, you should know that you don’t want the masses (casuals) to feel like they are facing insurmountable odds from other players.
Reasonable gear progression is subjective. Insurmountable odds are objective. And when the masses of casuals get faced with this objective fact, they might dislike it enough to quit. The end.
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bloodprophetMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.
Not at all scared of casuals. Scared the game you propose will be a homogenized mess centered around the lowest common denominator.
GW2 has this and is one of the reasons I detest that "game" as much as I do. A new player logs in and 2-3 weeks later has the same quality gear as some one playing a lot for the last 5 years. This means very poor disparity between those that work for it and those that just show up.
If players want to compete let them earn it like just like everyone else.
As others have said it's about the amount of time you spend in game but what you do with that time that matters.
Should someone that spends 5 hours a day doing Shakespeare in the park have the same results as someone organizing with friends and guildies to go run challenging content? I say no.
Most people never listen. They are just waiting on you to quit making noise so they can.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Not at all scared of casuals. Scared the game you propose will be a homogenized mess centered around the lowest common denominator.
GW2 has this and is one of the reasons I detest that "game" as much as I do. A new player logs in and 2-3 weeks later has the same quality gear as some one playing a lot for the last 5 years. This means very poor disparity between those that work for it and those that just show up.
If players want to compete let them earn it like just like everyone else.
As others have said it's about the amount of time you spend in game but what you do with that time that matters.
Should someone that spends 5 hours a day doing Shakespeare in the park have the same results as someone organizing with friends and guildies to go run challenging content? I say no.
Once again… for the millionth time… I never proposed that someone who plays for 2-3 weeks to be on equal footing with someone who has been playing for a long time. I also didn’t ask for a casual player to be on equal footing with a hardcore player. I also never said that someone who spends their game time chilling in the park should be as strong as someone who organizes raids with their friends. You guys really should read the posts and try to understand them before you comment.
Reasonableness is a very subjective thing. In my opinion each tier giving 5% (maybe more depending on how many tiers there are) power increase is perfectly reasonable. In your opinion it might not be.
This depends on how many tiers there are, and how much effort it takes to go between them.
If there are only 4 or 5 tiers, top end players will just run out of game to play.
If there are 12 - 15 tiers, then that 5% (which is low, but acceptable - it means each piece of equipment offers 0.3% increase per tier), then a top end player will have 50% over many casual players.
The bottom line, is that if you have played games that revolve a lot of their content around PvP, you should know that you don’t want the masses (casuals) to feel like they are facing insurmountable odds from other players.
Alternatively, if a game has character progression as a core gameplay aspect, that progression needs to continue.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Reasonableness is a very subjective thing. In my opinion each tier giving 5% (maybe more depending on how many tiers there are) power increase is perfectly reasonable. In your opinion it might not be.
This depends on how many tiers there are, and how much effort it takes to go between them.
If there are only 4 or 5 tiers, top end players will just run out of game to play.
If there are 12 - 15 tiers, then that 5% (which is low, but acceptable - it means each piece of equipment offers 0.3% increase per tier), then a top end player will have 50% over many casual players.
The bottom line, is that if you have played games that revolve a lot of their content around PvP, you should know that you don’t want the masses (casuals) to feel like they are facing insurmountable odds from other players.
Alternatively, if a game has character progression as a core gameplay aspect, that progression needs to continue.
I feel like you don’t understand the kind of game that AoC is.
Top end players wouldn’t run out of game to play if there are only 4-5 tiers because there is much more to AoC than grinding for gear. Also, if each tier is a lengthy journey, then it’s no issue again.
Once again, AoC isn’t a game whose main core gameplay aspect is character progression. That is a very important aspect of the game, but there are SO many other things that AoC is trying to bring back to genre… if you think that your main goal in AoC is to get the biggest and baddest gear and that you have then “completed” the game until the next bigger and badder gear set comes out, then you don’t understand what they’re developing at Intrepid.
I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.
Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for.
If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line?
The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go.
Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started.
So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me?
You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact.
The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time.
How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player.
And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win.
As I explained above, my statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week is not a MMORPG target audience. Also, I t’s not an arbitrary line. Developers get paid to figure this stuff out… their job is to figure out how they’re designing the game and progression so that a casual can achieve stuff in game…
You get so bogged down on things that aren’t even being discussed. Of course that the way you spend your time matters, but we’re assuming that when we say casual vs hardcore, both players are working towards progressing their character.
I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.
“You don’t wanna make gear progression pointless because ur scared!!1!”
Dude just stop. Casuals are going to lose because they don’t play frequently and that means they won’t have a deep understanding of game mechanics. No amount of “skill”, which you have so far not defined, is going to overcome the knowledge gap between someone who plays competitively for 8 hours a day and someone who plays non-competitively for 1 hour a day.
This thread should have died ages ago because you can’t actually back up your self-perceived “points” with sound logic. You just type the same thing over and over and say nothing meaningful.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I’m talking about a casual vs a hardcore player. The gear power difference between them shouldn’t be insurmountable.
Well, the 15 minutes vs 20 hours was very much a casual vs hardcore. However, the point is perfectly valid, and actually kind of is what you are asking for.
If you are OK with hat player that spends 15 minutes a week on the game falling behind that 20 hour a week player, where do you stand on someone that spends an hour a week in game? Should they be able to keep up? What about 2 hours? 5 hours? Where is that arbitrary line?
The actual point here though isn't time. It is effectiveness of the time spent in game. When I play a game at the top end, I have a plan for the bulk of the time I spend in game. I'll run more content in a week (just pure bulk if content) than most casual players would run in a year. That is because I have a group organized before I log in, with a goal in mind, and everyone ready to go.
Not only are we all ready to go and in place on time, but we all know the content and know each other better than a casual player knows anyone. Content that takes a casual player several hours takes us 15 minutes. Hell, I've had my guild pass more casual guilds forming up outside raid zones and cleared the zone before they are even all there - and that is still a guild, not even a pick up raid, a pick up raid would be even slower, assuming it ever even gets started.
So, if I spend 20 hours a week efficiently like that, should someone that logs in and spends 18 of those 20 hours shit talking in chat, or just waiting around for whatever, have the same quality of gear as me?
You are very clearly going to say no to that. Someone that doesn't put effort in to the game should not get the same gear rewards as someone that does. There should absolutely be a gap there - an insurmountable gap, in fact.
The thing with that is - we are now literally talking 15 minutes a week vs 20 hours a week, or damn close to it, because the content a casual player runs in a week can be (often is) run by more hardcore players in a fraction of the time.
How about, instead of time spent, we work it out based on boss kills. If someone that has 80 times as much time in game (15 minutes vs 20 hours) should have an insurmountable advantage, then surely that would apply to someone that has killed 80 times as many bosses, yes? Because that really is the actual reality of a hardcore player vs a casual player.
And lets not even get in to exactly which bosses it is that each has killed - because between a casual and hardcore player, I am sure you know who will win.
As I explained above, my statement is obviously meant to be taken within reason. 15 minutes a week is not a MMORPG target audience. Also, I t’s not an arbitrary line. Developers get paid to figure this stuff out… their job is to figure out how they’re designing the game and progression so that a casual can achieve stuff in game…
You get so bogged down on things that aren’t even being discussed. Of course that the way you spend your time matters, but we’re assuming that when we say casual vs hardcore, both players are working towards progressing their character.
I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.
“You don’t wanna make gear progression pointless because ur scared!!1!”
Dude just stop. Casuals are going to lose because they don’t play frequently and that means they won’t have a deep understanding of game mechanics. No amount of “skill”, which you have so far not defined, is going to overcome the knowledge gap between someone who plays competitively for 8 hours a day and someone who plays non-competitively for 1 hour a day.
This thread should have died ages ago because you can’t actually back up your self-perceived “points” with sound logic. You just type the same thing over and over and say nothing meaningful.
Buddy, I never said that a lesser skilled player shouldn’t lose to a more skilled player… I said that gear power differences shouldn’t pose an insurmountable obstacle. Especially, since as you so wisely pointed out, hardcore players are likely going to already have the advantage of more skill.
It seems that I’m repeating myself because people like you are failing to understand a very basic concept and keep putting words in my mouth that I never said.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It seems that I’m repeating myself because people like you are failing to understand a very basic concept and keep putting words in my mouth that I never said.
Much of this conversation has swirled around the assumed definitions between 'casual' and 'hardcore'. So, @VmanGman - by what quantifiable measure do you define 'hardcore' and 'casual' and where exactly are you drawing the line between the two?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It would be helpful if you understood the conversation before commenting.
No one said that casual players would need to acquire gear on their own. Also, the insurmountability is referring to the gear power difference and not the time.
The gear power difference is not insurmountable because they can acquire better gear to bridge the game.
It’s undeniable that a hardcore player will have better gear than a casual player. The entire point of the conversation is regarding how big the gear power difference is between that hardcore player and the casual player… we’re 17 pages into this… come on now. Pay attention.
LMFAO
Casual players do not have to acquire their gear by themselves. Other people can give them BiS gear.
Especially if they are in a guild.
The power disparity of the gear has little to do with casual v hardcore... as I keep telling you.
Not that it matters since nothing anyone says will change your mind about this topic.
I don't know much on the topic so im not going to argue either direction lol. But i will be the type who spends 16 hours a day on the game and i just hope i will still be able to play with my casual friends who can only play an hour or two a day. Like i hope they will still be worth bringing along in dungeons and raids and stuff and not feel like they do nothing to help.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There is also a Mentorship feature to help with that.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It seems that I’m repeating myself because people like you are failing to understand a very basic concept and keep putting words in my mouth that I never said.
Much of this conversation has swirled around the assumed definitions between 'casual' and 'hardcore'. So, @VmanGman - by what quantifiable measure do you define 'hardcore' and 'casual' and where exactly are you drawing the line between the two?
Casual and hardcore has always meant the same thing. It’s the same idea that developers work with when making design decisions as @Azherae explained above. The terms are based around the amount of time that those individuals have to progress in game.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Also - as Azherae mentioned - Challenge Casual, Challenge Hardcore.
And, regarding Time Casual, Time Hardcore - I would say it's the amount of time a person plays per week.
Playing isn't always focused on progression.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
It would be helpful if you understood the conversation before commenting.
No one said that casual players would need to acquire gear on their own. Also, the insurmountability is referring to the gear power difference and not the time.
The gear power difference is not insurmountable because they can acquire better gear to bridge the game.
It’s undeniable that a hardcore player will have better gear than a casual player. The entire point of the conversation is regarding how big the gear power difference is between that hardcore player and the casual player… we’re 17 pages into this… come on now. Pay attention.
LMFAO
Casual players do not have to acquire their gear by themselves. Other people can give them BiS gear.
Especially if they are in a guild.
The power disparity of the gear has little to do with casual v hardcore... as I keep telling you.
Not that it matters since nothing anyone says will change your mind about this topic.
Casuals will acquire gear at a casual pace. Hardcore players will acquire gear at a hardcore pace. We are not talking about pace here… the pace is not a variable in this conversation since there will always be a difference in pace between the two groups. We are talking about how much each tier of gear will increase your power by. If a casual pace allows someone to increase their power by 50% and a hardcore pace allows someone to increase their power by 200%, then the gear power difference is most likely insurmountable. Pace is irrelevant because it’s always going to be slower than hardcore players… what matters is what tier of gear casual players have access to and how much worse it is from hardcore player gear. This is especially true when Intrepid has clearly stated that some content will be designed so that very few people can complete it… this means that casuals will most likely not have access to it or only have access to it after a very long time.
I don’t know what fantasy world you live in, but guilds don’t just gear casual players like it’s candy… you’re making the assumption that casuals will just be able to mooch off of their more hardcore neighbors. Not to mention that you’re missing a very core element to MMORPGs… hardcore players often make guilds with other hardcore players and casuals with other casuals. Who will gear the casuals? Other casuals?
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There is also a Mentorship feature to help with that.
You don’t know that the mentorship program will be designed to help with endgame gearing. It could be to help new players into the game. Also, casuals aren’t dumb or inexperienced… they just have less time. You’re once again making assumptions both about the systems in the game and about casuals’ needs.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited May 2022
They might acquire gear at a casual pace.
That can be depedent upon level rather than time. Especially if they are in a guild or community with hardcore players.This is especially true in a game with very little BoP, BoE or Soul Binding.
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VmanGmanMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
They might acquire gear at a casual pace.
That can be depedent upon level rather than time. Especially if they are in a guild or community with hardcore players.
When we’re discussing this we’re obviously talking about max level… it has to do with time not level. And had you read my entire comment, you would understand that hardcore players often play with other hardcore players which would mean that your suggestion doesn’t make sense. Why would a hardcore group want to drag a casual behind them, when they can just get more hardcore players into their guild and therefore be more powerful.
I feel like you don’t understand the kind of game that AoC is.
In almost all MMO's (I defy you to name an exception), when players reach the end point of viable individual progression, they leave the game.
Albion Online. Ashes of Creation. Because both of these games are designed for the massively multiplayer interactions that can happen in a sandbox/sandpark MMORPG. The game is designed for the conflict and adventures that the world provides. They’re not designed for you to just get the next bigger stick.
Even though gear is more like a consumable in Albion Online, gear is also not static and permanent in AoC due to how the gear degradation/durability system will work. Regardless, both of those MMORPGs are designed for much more than gear grind.
I’m afraid that you really don’t understand what AoC is trying to achieve.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Help from one's guild or community is even more true at max level.
You don't even have to read the studies, Josh Strife Hayes will read out the summaries for you (beginning of the video up to about 3 minute mark.
If you want to use the studies for knowledge vs not knowledge, i.e. the type of Hardcore that I am vs the type of Hardcore that the most casual player in my group is, I suggest using the basic easy-search one:
Formalize the stance using the data any way you like @VmanGman
Note that according to my understanding of Ashes, assuming logarithmic gear tiers, I personally have no concerns or complaints:
16h a day players (I think it's fair to call these people no-lifers, right? Even they shouldn't be offended at this?) would have Legendaries if lucky, and otherwise probably be BiS for whatever they are trying to do, across multiple activities.
8h a day players will probably still be BiS for multiple activities, which may or may not be PvP according to the discretion of the player.
4h a day players (still in 'Hardcore' territory) will be BiS for their specialized activities, and probably one tier lower, maybe 2 tiers lower in PvP.
2h a day players (dropping out now) will probably be BiS for one slot unless their guild values them, one tier lower even for their specialized activity, almost certainly 2 tiers lower for 'PvP gear spec'.
1h a day players (led by strong guild leaders) will probably not be prioritized for BiS in any slot, but get hand-me-downs from anyone higher to put them 1-2 tiers lower than the Hardcore, which in Ashes is around 6-12% I believe.
Intermittent players (I won't even try to quantify the capability of players who play less than 1h a day but somehow play every day) are likely to be wearing 2 tiers below (i.e. Average gear) that they still earned themselves, or got as hand-me-downs if in a guild.
Guildless intermittent players (not even enough time to play the economy game) will be the ones who have below Average gear. 'What they can scrounge up' with no guildmates to give them hand-me-downs or what they can buy cheap because no one else wants to hold onto it. Bonus chance for this due to having to maintain the gear.
So at this point, you'd have to worry about 8h a day players (full timers) stomping on 1h a day players and Intermittents. This seems like a valid concern based on what you're arguing, but the problem you're trying to address isn't solved by anything within the gear system usually, and Ashes is within parameters.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
^^^
And...Ashes is balanced around 8-person groups; not 1v1.
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Just use the 'industry standard' values here, @VmanGman .
I'll try to find the precise source of these numbers for you if it turns out that detractors reject them, but:
Casual: 2-3 hours, 2-3 times a week, with those blocks normally not all in one, or heavily organized.
Hardcore: 3.5+ hours almost every day, usually with organized guild or group events
You can split further, into 'Time Casual', and 'Time Hardcore', 'Challenge Casual', 'Challenge Hardcore', but it's often a correlation based on how many organized events and the difficulty/reward ratio of those events that they can do. This isn't a good way to deal with it in more diverse games usually, though, because most players who spend 3.5+ hours will usually be strong enough in SOME aspect that if they have social bonds they can leverage that time-power through their influence on others. (e.g. crafters affecting economies or guild strength without ever being able to attend events).
In general, in my experience, other games are designed logarithmically, each 'tier of power' requires 2x as much investment as the previous, until you hit the 'cap' of 16h per day' (you know there are such people) at which point the differentiators are group organization and luck. Depending on the game, those factors are more important than time spent, as well. Up to the individual how they feel about that.
So, an 'inbetween' player, who plays in organized events with guild daily for 2h, would be one tier of 'strength and gear' below a 'hardcore' player who plays in organized events with guild daily for 2h and then crafts for 2h, assuming other factors of guild strength and organization being equal (you can even assume that they are in the same guild and attend the same types of events, and the 'hardcore' player just has the extra 2h for focused personal Artisan gains)
Obviously my experience with this progression is biased because I probably just quit all the games where 'playing twice as much made you 5x as strong', so don't take that one as having any meaning, throw in your own.
I'll find the studies to back up the numbers for you sometime today though.
Now, I'm not saying anybody in this long, drawn-out post would ever say so, but it does seem realistic that somebody will blame their lack of game time and their weak guild for being pummeled every-time they step out of their house. Just saying.. no finger-pointing...
That’s the whole point of this post… if the gear power difference between a hardcore player and a casual player will not be an insurmountable power gap, then casuals who complain about what you just said above will be simply told that their gear is strong enough to be competitive and that the game doesn’t need to spoon feed them. But that’s the key… their gear needs to be competitive and not present an insurmountable barrier.
Edit: Quick edit for all the people who claim that I’m asking for equal gear… I’m not. Being competitive and not being faced with an insurmountable power gap is not the same as being equal. Remember, you can still be the big hardcore player who is better at the game… you don’t need an insurmountable gear power gap to assert your dominance.
Casual players don't have to only acquire gear on their own.
Especially if they are in a guild.
So...I dunno why people keep harping on casual time v hardcore time.
That is not insurmountable.
I'm not.
I am arguing for reasonable gear progression.
You simply can not have reasonable gear progression without casual players facing an insurmountable gap. If the gap between someone that runs even 10 dungeons a week (a lot for a casual player) and someone that runs 100 is able to be bridged, then the game does not have reasonable gear progression.
There is no fantastical middle ground where both exist.
It would be helpful if you understood the conversation before commenting.
No one said that casual players would need to acquire gear on their own. Also, the insurmountability is referring to the gear power difference and not the time.
It’s undeniable that a hardcore player will have better gear than a casual player. The entire point of the conversation is regarding how big the gear power difference is between that hardcore player and the casual player… we’re 17 pages into this… come on now. Pay attention.
Reasonableness is a very subjective thing. In my opinion each tier giving 5% (maybe more depending on how many tiers there are) power increase is perfectly reasonable. In your opinion it might not be.
The bottom line, is that if you have played games that revolve a lot of their content around PvP, you should know that you don’t want the masses (casuals) to feel like they are facing insurmountable odds from other players.
Reasonable gear progression is subjective. Insurmountable odds are objective. And when the masses of casuals get faced with this objective fact, they might dislike it enough to quit. The end.
I don’t understand why some of you are arguing for insurmountable advantages. It’s almost as if you’re scared of casuals. If you’re a hardcore player not only will you have a gear advantage, but you’re also probably better at the game… you do no need an insurmountable advantage from gear power. If you’ve ever played a game that is built around PvP (especially one where you have a lot to lose), you know that that’s a recipe for frustration and for the casual quitting.
@Caeryl [/quote]
Not at all scared of casuals. Scared the game you propose will be a homogenized mess centered around the lowest common denominator.
GW2 has this and is one of the reasons I detest that "game" as much as I do. A new player logs in and 2-3 weeks later has the same quality gear as some one playing a lot for the last 5 years. This means very poor disparity between those that work for it and those that just show up.
If players want to compete let them earn it like just like everyone else.
As others have said it's about the amount of time you spend in game but what you do with that time that matters.
Should someone that spends 5 hours a day doing Shakespeare in the park have the same results as someone organizing with friends and guildies to go run challenging content? I say no.
Once again… for the millionth time… I never proposed that someone who plays for 2-3 weeks to be on equal footing with someone who has been playing for a long time. I also didn’t ask for a casual player to be on equal footing with a hardcore player. I also never said that someone who spends their game time chilling in the park should be as strong as someone who organizes raids with their friends. You guys really should read the posts and try to understand them before you comment.
Edit: quote
If there are only 4 or 5 tiers, top end players will just run out of game to play.
If there are 12 - 15 tiers, then that 5% (which is low, but acceptable - it means each piece of equipment offers 0.3% increase per tier), then a top end player will have 50% over many casual players. Alternatively, if a game has character progression as a core gameplay aspect, that progression needs to continue.
I feel like you don’t understand the kind of game that AoC is.
Top end players wouldn’t run out of game to play if there are only 4-5 tiers because there is much more to AoC than grinding for gear. Also, if each tier is a lengthy journey, then it’s no issue again.
Once again, AoC isn’t a game whose main core gameplay aspect is character progression. That is a very important aspect of the game, but there are SO many other things that AoC is trying to bring back to genre… if you think that your main goal in AoC is to get the biggest and baddest gear and that you have then “completed” the game until the next bigger and badder gear set comes out, then you don’t understand what they’re developing at Intrepid.
“You don’t wanna make gear progression pointless because ur scared!!1!”
Dude just stop. Casuals are going to lose because they don’t play frequently and that means they won’t have a deep understanding of game mechanics. No amount of “skill”, which you have so far not defined, is going to overcome the knowledge gap between someone who plays competitively for 8 hours a day and someone who plays non-competitively for 1 hour a day.
This thread should have died ages ago because you can’t actually back up your self-perceived “points” with sound logic. You just type the same thing over and over and say nothing meaningful.
Buddy, I never said that a lesser skilled player shouldn’t lose to a more skilled player… I said that gear power differences shouldn’t pose an insurmountable obstacle. Especially, since as you so wisely pointed out, hardcore players are likely going to already have the advantage of more skill.
It seems that I’m repeating myself because people like you are failing to understand a very basic concept and keep putting words in my mouth that I never said.
I logged back in after weeks and the conversation was still going. So I joined back in.
Thanks for your input, forum police.
Much of this conversation has swirled around the assumed definitions between 'casual' and 'hardcore'. So, @VmanGman - by what quantifiable measure do you define 'hardcore' and 'casual' and where exactly are you drawing the line between the two?
LMFAO
Casual players do not have to acquire their gear by themselves. Other people can give them BiS gear.
Especially if they are in a guild.
The power disparity of the gear has little to do with casual v hardcore... as I keep telling you.
Not that it matters since nothing anyone says will change your mind about this topic.
Casual and hardcore has always meant the same thing. It’s the same idea that developers work with when making design decisions as @Azherae explained above. The terms are based around the amount of time that those individuals have to progress in game.
And, regarding Time Casual, Time Hardcore - I would say it's the amount of time a person plays per week.
Playing isn't always focused on progression.
Casuals will acquire gear at a casual pace. Hardcore players will acquire gear at a hardcore pace. We are not talking about pace here… the pace is not a variable in this conversation since there will always be a difference in pace between the two groups. We are talking about how much each tier of gear will increase your power by. If a casual pace allows someone to increase their power by 50% and a hardcore pace allows someone to increase their power by 200%, then the gear power difference is most likely insurmountable. Pace is irrelevant because it’s always going to be slower than hardcore players… what matters is what tier of gear casual players have access to and how much worse it is from hardcore player gear. This is especially true when Intrepid has clearly stated that some content will be designed so that very few people can complete it… this means that casuals will most likely not have access to it or only have access to it after a very long time.
I don’t know what fantasy world you live in, but guilds don’t just gear casual players like it’s candy… you’re making the assumption that casuals will just be able to mooch off of their more hardcore neighbors. Not to mention that you’re missing a very core element to MMORPGs… hardcore players often make guilds with other hardcore players and casuals with other casuals. Who will gear the casuals? Other casuals?
You don’t know that the mentorship program will be designed to help with endgame gearing. It could be to help new players into the game. Also, casuals aren’t dumb or inexperienced… they just have less time. You’re once again making assumptions both about the systems in the game and about casuals’ needs.
That can be depedent upon level rather than time. Especially if they are in a guild or community with hardcore players.This is especially true in a game with very little BoP, BoE or Soul Binding.
When we’re discussing this we’re obviously talking about max level… it has to do with time not level. And had you read my entire comment, you would understand that hardcore players often play with other hardcore players which would mean that your suggestion doesn’t make sense. Why would a hardcore group want to drag a casual behind them, when they can just get more hardcore players into their guild and therefore be more powerful.
So, unless you are saying that Ashes won't be an MMO, my point is fairly valid.
Albion Online. Ashes of Creation. Because both of these games are designed for the massively multiplayer interactions that can happen in a sandbox/sandpark MMORPG. The game is designed for the conflict and adventures that the world provides. They’re not designed for you to just get the next bigger stick.
Even though gear is more like a consumable in Albion Online, gear is also not static and permanent in AoC due to how the gear degradation/durability system will work. Regardless, both of those MMORPGs are designed for much more than gear grind.
I’m afraid that you really don’t understand what AoC is trying to achieve.
You don't even have to read the studies, Josh Strife Hayes will read out the summaries for you (beginning of the video up to about 3 minute mark.
If you want to use the studies for knowledge vs not knowledge, i.e. the type of Hardcore that I am vs the type of Hardcore that the most casual player in my group is, I suggest using the basic easy-search one:
https://peterhancock.ucf.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2016/03/Lakhmani_Oppold_Rupp_Szalma_Hancock_2015Knowledge-distribution-on-MMO-players.pdf
If you want to go in deep, for some reason, start here:
https://quanticfoundry.com/notes-on-phase-1-sample/
Formalize the stance using the data any way you like @VmanGman
Note that according to my understanding of Ashes, assuming logarithmic gear tiers, I personally have no concerns or complaints:
16h a day players (I think it's fair to call these people no-lifers, right? Even they shouldn't be offended at this?) would have Legendaries if lucky, and otherwise probably be BiS for whatever they are trying to do, across multiple activities.
8h a day players will probably still be BiS for multiple activities, which may or may not be PvP according to the discretion of the player.
4h a day players (still in 'Hardcore' territory) will be BiS for their specialized activities, and probably one tier lower, maybe 2 tiers lower in PvP.
2h a day players (dropping out now) will probably be BiS for one slot unless their guild values them, one tier lower even for their specialized activity, almost certainly 2 tiers lower for 'PvP gear spec'.
1h a day players (led by strong guild leaders) will probably not be prioritized for BiS in any slot, but get hand-me-downs from anyone higher to put them 1-2 tiers lower than the Hardcore, which in Ashes is around 6-12% I believe.
Intermittent players (I won't even try to quantify the capability of players who play less than 1h a day but somehow play every day) are likely to be wearing 2 tiers below (i.e. Average gear) that they still earned themselves, or got as hand-me-downs if in a guild.
Guildless intermittent players (not even enough time to play the economy game) will be the ones who have below Average gear. 'What they can scrounge up' with no guildmates to give them hand-me-downs or what they can buy cheap because no one else wants to hold onto it. Bonus chance for this due to having to maintain the gear.
So at this point, you'd have to worry about 8h a day players (full timers) stomping on 1h a day players and Intermittents. This seems like a valid concern based on what you're arguing, but the problem you're trying to address isn't solved by anything within the gear system usually, and Ashes is within parameters.
And...Ashes is balanced around 8-person groups; not 1v1.