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Dev Discussion #42 - Gear Color Customization

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  • Gonna be using ESO as my main frame of reference.

    Most of the stuff I like about the system is fairly obvious and straightforward - use dyes on one of up to 3 slots to change the look of a piece.

    I'm going to be going more into what I hate about the system than what I like, so hopefully we don't see more of it here.

    Things I hate:
    • Having pieces of the armor/outfit set that are "uncolorable". Nothing I hate more than seeing a set / outfit / cosmetic and going "WOW, I HAVE THE PERFECT IDEA IN MIND FOR THIS!" only to find that one area of the armor that can't be dyed that ruins the entire theme.
    • Having pieces that can't be dyed AT ALL. Let me point to the Windhelm fur shawl piece in ESO specifically, which only comes in black, and can't be changed, yet we have NO alternate equivalent in other colors like white, cream, brown, etc.
    • Having areas that are connected to the same dye slot yet have little/no correlation with each other. Please no "make the undershirt color match the color of the buttons/buckles". Drives me nuts when I want to have something like silver buckles and a red shirt, but can't do that because they're tied to the same dye slot!
    • Having no option to preview what areas of an outfit set are dyeable from the store / IRL money shop before buying the outfit
    • Locking dyes behind endgame. "Want that specific shade of color? Well then you'd better gear up for that Raid dungeon in the best min/max gear with the most perfectly optimized attack rotation to complete for your vanity pieces!". Just, no.
    • Having 12 different preset shades of that one color yet not a single one of them looks right. Honestly I'd rather just have an RGB slider/selection than dye presets to get those shades JUUUUST right. This would especially help with getting matching colors with items that come from totally different appearance sets and are set to different materials/values from each other, so the "same color" looks different on different sets.


    As for color limitations... honestly I'm fine with people being allowed to do up obnoxious color schemes if they want.

    Yes it can be jarring or immersion-breaking to see at times for some people, but does it actually hurt anyone? Not really.

    And some people have an actual practical reason for things like that at times. In ESO I've actually talked to quite a few people who make those "obnoxious neon" outfits because they're the tank or healer for a raid group and it makes them easier to find in the crowd, things like that. Not something I'd personally do, but to each their own.
    My AoC Wishlist:
    -Avian Tulnar (topic video)
    -Dwarf-to-tallest race heights for Tulnar
    -Crows/ravens for Falconers
    -AC:O & AC:V type aerial scouting for Falconer
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    All colors should be a option be it a dull red or neon green. Bdo does a cool thing as well that allows you to change a items material type (ie cloth to metal). Though the latter part isn't as important I feel the colours people want is important so people can create their identity which is pretty important for some people.

    I see some people don't want bright colours but I believe that is more so just their own taste. Some people might want a bright colour for smaller certain parts of their outfit for small details and such.
  • dakotarobodakotarobo Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    How do you feel about dying your gear?
    This.. this puts me through the wringer. I've seen everything from zero customization to full customization and imo, dyeing your gear is a relatively easy added level of customization that fuels the immersion/escapism factor.

    ESO's dyeing system is my favorite of the types, but still leaves plenty to improve on. Their method of acquiring dyes through achievements and adventuring presents a great incentive to go out and do everything the world has to offer. Another great upside to this is it preserves the look and feel of each armor piece (or motif in that game) so you can still have a full set of daedric armor without having to be some full-metal black knight.

    I think my biggest critique with this style is sometimes you want a shiny yellow, but you can't have a shiny yellow because that shiny yellow you progressed 6 quests, leveled through 2 zones, and 100%d a puzzle for isn't the shade of yellow you want. My proposed solution would be to have a selection of materials and a selection of colors to apply separately (with the exception of converting metal->wood, etc) in order to give your sheet-metal tower shield a rusting look, or your leather bag a glossy wet feeling.

    Ultimately, I think a dye system needs that freedom of customization to be worth a glance, but the freedom shouldn't go as far as to encroach on others game immersion. AKA, no pink guy filthy frank men running around in bright pink skintight suits LOL
  • MycologyMycology Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'm against armor/gear/ dyeing. I feel like its super unnecessary unless implemented incredibly smoothly. For example, New World had this feature on its weapons in the Alphas and it was so cheesy looking and even half of the armor sets looked bad with dye.

    I'd prefer a traditional transmog system with the original models, that can only be used once you have reached max level.

    I seem to be in the minority on this. :(
  • AtoriAtori Member
    So I'm not a developer in any way, my knowledge of these things is probably very surface level, but I want to show one of my favorite systems that probably dates me a little bit.

    Long ago, just before Guild Wars 2 came out, there was a popular game called City of Heroes which I remember fondly, that did a very, very good job in terms of customization. Now a lot of current games will have dyes to their games for your clothing, or maybe even your weapons, but this one had an ability for you to dye your spells and abilities as well.

    Now that might sound goofy at first, thinking as you could make your abilities 'bright pink' and look kind of ridiculous, but it actually opened the way for a lot of flavor. For instance, here I have a hydromancer in the game. He can blast water, easy.
    4jzf7wzkapgl.png
    But his character is more of a vampire-necromancer type. With their system, I am able to change its color, and thus its flavor for my character to now use his abilities to be a hemomancer.
    6m90omm9al4g.png

    Now obviously this will be a lot harder with new-age stuff that isn't just one color and a bunch of textures, but having that ability to flavor is amazing.

    As for clothing and weapons, partitioning textures into maybe 3 channels that we can use dyes to change would be good. I don't think it really needs to be more complex than that, to just have a primary, secondary, and tertiary channel like Guild Wars 2 does.

    Just don't be like wow and have your framework be static textures you cannot color at all.

    There was a question about the paid item variants that will come into the game. If we can color them ourselves, what would be the point. Welll, you could always experiment with different textures and fabrics, the different metallic/normal maps go a long way to make an object's texture feel unique.
  • SolunaSoluna Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    How far would you like the system to go?

    My favourite game when it comes to dying was Guild Wars 2. I´d love to have as many options as possible to dye my armor. Imo Guild Wars 2 did the dying system pretty well but I´d love to have even more options to dye more parts of the armor.
    Do you prefer a full-color range that allows for some odd color combinations, or a more limited one that preserves visual fidelity and realism?

    I´d love to have a full-color range to be as flexible with the customization as possible! Especially really bright whites and really dark blacks have been pretty limited in many games that I´ve played so far.
    Soluna_signature.png
  • MiromMirom Member
    I love it when I can dye my armor in any color and I think it will only add to the immersion of the game. Ofc some crazy colors like glowing pink or neon colors are out of question here. In GW2 I spent hours just dying my armor sets and it was definitely worth it.

    This is my opinion, but I think that it could be interesting if you had to get the color first to apply it (it could act as consumable) and some colors could be from some rare or speciffic mobs. So some colors would be really rare like violet in medieval times.
  • ThatGuyPowersThatGuyPowers Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I prefer it to be limited mainly because something I've always hated is seeing someone's character and they are fully neon green or hot pink and stick out more than anything on my screen really destroys immersion so I would not limit it super hard just limit it enough so that someone cant go overboard imo
  • VetkinVetkin Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Guild Wars 2 has by far the best dye system out there - but it can also be improved. There are some dyes that are so extremely bright and unrealistic that it absolutely ruins the immersion. I'd love a big, detailed color palette that excludes extreme colors so that it keeps the realism.

    What's also really important to me is that dyes always look the same, no matter the material they're applied to. Again, Guild Wars 2 is my example here: If you apply various colors to leather, metal or cloth, they'll all look different between those materials - very annoying and avoidable.
  • EisranEisran Member
    Having the ability to dye every piece of gear individual or as whole, such as a 'unify' color button would be amazing. Dying weapons and shields however should be limited. Unique weapons and shields should look a certain way, though if customization is possible for those as well then sure but I am not a fan of having my weapons viewed as if they were dipped into a bucket of paint. A sword should shine and a shield should look like a formidable wall to protect ones character. If you are so inclined then allow people to put their guild logo or have the tattoo system that you have for the character creator to be applied to the front of shields to have some differentiation. Though any and all customization is welcomed and I am more than happy with whatever intrepid has to offer or any ideas you guys have. Keep up the great work and I look forward to seeing Ashes of Creation!
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I'd prefer we can dye sections individual 'sections' of gear much like bdo for full customization. I don't think there should be any restriction on 'realism'. Let players be the real fashion police via pking if they are so passionate about it instead of restricting player options arbitrarily on what is supposed to be the most self expressive part of ones avatar.

    I'd prefer there be blue prints that we can that are needed to 'customize' these individual sections to incorporate it into wider itemization and be used as a tool for rewarding otherwise difficult to reward quests and dungeon mobs.
    Alkali Witch
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Velein wrote: »
    The more dye channels we have, the better. It allows for players to express themselves in the style they want. However I do feel the channels should be different.

    A channel for metal shouldn't have the same bright colors as a channel for cloth. Seeing bright purple metal may look strange and out of place, but bright purple cloth may look normal.

    As for systems that I have seen that work: ESO, Wildstar, Rift, GW2. They all have [or had] good dye systems that gave freedom to look unique, but without going too crazy.

    I do think dyes should be one-use, while having unlimited/reusable once you gain it is nice from a player standpoint, it is bad for a crafter/economy standpoint.

    I think I'd agree to this compromise. There are certain material 'channels' that can't access all saturations of color just due to the nature of the material at hand. So cloth has much more freedom than leather/fur which has more freedom than wood which has more freedom than metal.
    Alkali Witch
  • Kiwi_Kiwi_ Member
    edited June 17
    So first off I think being able to dye your gear is super important in an MMO because it adds incredibly much to customisation of your character.
    However there are big DOs and DON'Ts for me with this topic

    DOs:
    - I think that limiting the colors some what to keep some realism or logic in there would work well with AoC
    - One thing I think would be really nice with limited colors: unlockable colors through achievements!
    - Being able to dye your gear in detail (different slots and parts) is a must by now
    - Different fabric/textures for the dye are a really nice bonus
    - Dying abilities would be more than amazing!
    - Transmog
    - The ability to hide helmets (or just gear pieces in general)


    DON'Ts:
    - Don't forget about the weapons!
    - Don't just have the dye stack on top of the original color with the result being a weird muddy color instead of the color your clicked for the dye
    - Don't screw up the acqusition of dye please! Paying (cash shop) for dying your gear is fine imo, but make it fair like unlimited dying for one month (making it a craftable could be fun as well)
    - Don't leave out parts of the gear like small parts of leather or buttons or whatever, not being able to dye everything limits the player in a ridiculous way

    Thanks for caring about our opinion!

    PS: something I forgot to add: It's not about color but gear and character customisation in general - and I'm sure I've seen you guys mention that you wanted to do something like that b4 but being able to combine different pieces of armor and cosmetics for the looks and not just having to wear one set adds a whole new layer to customisation sooo pretty please?
  • OtrOtr Member
    preserve visual fidelity and realism
  • horendishorendis Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One
    Beginning Gear = free color choices (Dyes are applied for you when you enter Verra)
    4 types of dyes: Common, Uncommon, Rare and Epic. (Black and White dyes should not be Rare or Epic).

    I would split the dyes between the Artisan Trees to encourage social and economic interactions.

    Common colors= Gathering (including Farming)

    Uncommon colors= Processing (including Kilns/Smelters)

    Rare colors= Crafting (including Alchemy)

    Epic colors= Scientific Node (Merchants/Quest Givers/Special Crafting Table)
    Color Tier 1 Library
    Color Tier 2 College
    Color Tier 3 University
    Color Tier 4 Academy
    These Epics could come from Loot Drops, Easter Eggs, Very Rare Plants/Fish, Minerals or Crafting Discoveries,
  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited June 17
    Allowing us the liberty to use dyes in any gear/cosmetic without restrictions would also be good for the economy, as you can make it so it takes gatherers to collect flowers for dyes, and processors to turn them into a material that crafters can use to make dyes, this could be done with simple dyes from early levels all the way to maybe even neon dyes that are extremely rare and hard, and using the dye should destroy it so it would make for sink as well

    Plus this is something you can also sell in the cash shop and make good money from it you could sell every type of dye but make it per use and milk $ from it with no problems since its purely cosmetic! (ofc paid dyes should be non-tradable and soulbound to your character as soon as you buy it for no p2w)

    Also please, let us use neutral dyes such as black and white on all sorts of materials, I hate when games make these colors unusable on metals.
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  • griffithgriffith Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I think a limited palette depending on the item would be the best route. Neon colors in particular should be restricted to specific items and situations. Metallic colors should be restricted to metallic items or they might risk looking goofy.

    Also there should be items that can hold multiple colors depending on if a skill is being used or not as well though. Like if I am casting a spell I'd like if I could pick the color my wand or staff glows as before/during a cast animation.
  • ShoelidShoelid Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Vaknar wrote: »
    How do you feel about dying your gear? How far would you like the system to go? Do you prefer a full-color range that allows for some odd color combinations, or a more limited one that preserves visual fidelity and realism?

    I never got the appeal, but I can see how others would like it. I would prefer a very limited color range that respects the style of the game and the the gear that it goes on. The color options should match the gear it's going on. Gear made from natural materials should be limited to natural colors. A hat made of straw should be limited to "straw colors"; natural browns, tans, a couple shades of green and maybe a brown-red. No neon colors, please.
  • Jujubee661Jujubee661 Member
    edited June 16
    Let the people have freedom of choice! Gear looks are an important part of character customization. Personally, I don't care if you are all black, neon, stripped, polka dotted.... whatever. As for accessibility, I like it when basic color choices are immediately available while also having choices that are unlocked via buying dyes made by crafters. Then, having exclusive dyes that are achievement rewards. I like to work hard for my right to strut my stuff :D

    *edited to add that it would be cool to have a craftable "red", " dark blue", "light blue" "yellow", etc dye that would open to a color wheel for extra choice.
  • nonameftwnonameftw Member, Warrior of Old, Kickstarter
    Of course colours are important but having an Outfit System (SWTOR combined with WoW's unlocking of looks would be the best implementation imo) in the first place is more important.

    Dyes could also be consumable items like in GW1 which could tie into crafting. To counterbalance this though there would have to be a feature to see the potential new dyes in world on your character. It could be a temporary thing where a dye config would reset after 2 mins unless actual dye is applied.

    In terms of colours I'd say to slightly reign it in and possibly to limit the potential dyes of an armour type (Like GW 2 has its categories but actually enforcing them).
  • keenowkeenow Member
    Love dyes. After reading all the comments, it sounds like a happy medium might be to have an A channel (main) and B channel (secondary) to dye items. Restrict the main channel (the main face of the armor) to more realistic colors, but allow the second channel (trims, undershirts, straps) to be as vibrant and neon as people want it. That would hopefully preserve immersion, but also let people represent meaningful colors to their character or a chance to stand out with some flair.
    If I had to pick one or the other though, I'd say let everyone have full access to the full color wheel. Who cares if there's a neon knight? With pvp, I'm sure there'd be fashion police anyway :D
  • WhiskyWhisky Member
    How do i feel about Dying Gear?
    I think in the modern world of gaming, more customization is required. Steven once said that he wants Ashes to be the most unique and customizable game out there to make every person able to enjoy the game and create things that are completely their own.

    Dyes are the answer to that. Dyes give you the ability to have red, tan, gold, or whatever other color you want on your armor and weapons. It makes it unique and also allows for players to change gear colors to colors that fit them.

    How far should the system go?
    I believe that a few games have done a phenomenal job on dyes like ESO which had a wide variety of dyes that you could dye every piece of the armor with every piece having 3 dye channels.

    Dyeing should be more than just changing the color on the cloth of a suit of armor, it should also be able to select the color of the metal, the furs, and the trims that go around.

    Bring on the customization to allow us to change colors of things and truly be immersed in our own world.

    The more options to dye different parts on a piece of gear the better.
    ESO Example
    AAPNlW2.jpeg
    GW2 Example
    3U5QLR9.png

    Full color or Limited?
    There is arguments for both, on one hand I think neon colors are awful in fantasy settings but I also like the freedom of being able to select that.

    Personally I enjoy the gritty colors but still having access to a full spectrum of colors but perhaps not having them so sparkly or bright.

    Additional dye ideas

    Mount gear dyeing. I think it would be cool to dye saddles, armor, and other things on mounts that are man made so it can match your armor.

    Guild Dye schematics. Basically a guild can create a "Guild Dye Pack" that can be used on a set of armor and it will dye the armor/ gear in that guild dye pack color

    This covers my opinion.
  • ThreatherThreather Member
    edited June 17
    All the examples below are not something set in stone, but more ideas to help my thoughts come out. I really enjoy painting miniatures as a hobby more than playing the games, so I really enjoy the freedom to choose my own colors than going by colors from lore/canon.

    How do you feel about dying your gear?

    I think this is a must for all non-cosmetic purchased gear. The dye system must also not be able to be configured in such a way that you can take a normal "similar" set and dye it to match the cosmetic set. This adds a layer of difficulty, I think, for the developers, but a difficulty that I want them to overcome. The thing I loved the most about Ultima Online's [https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/gameplay/crafting/staining/] was the ability to dye armor sets and make your guild "match" in colors so you can not only identify guilds/friends by their tags, but the colors they choose to wear as a team. Whether it be a kite shield that is green with a green sash and a green cape for the warriors. Green robes for the casters. The visual aspect made it feel like they were a community.

    Dyes being a limited use where you can only dye 50 items per dye tub of that color would be an interesting aspect of the game. Or only those who master the art can make permanent dye tubs. However, having them limited in use means you could easily tie them into the artisan system as a way for someone to have continual money-making options as well as give people other items to acquire in-game through the use of the in-game economy. A possibility to dye metal could be a need to find colored ore instead of using a dye tub on it or processors have the ability to create colored ingots from all normal ores + dyes (but it takes higher skill to make a dyed ingot instead of a normal ingot.). I would also like to see the world of Verra have a sense of rarity or difficulty based on its world. Are Blacks/Blues/Reds harder to come by based off of the scarcity of the insects/plants needed? Then they might need a high alchemy skill to be able to make a single use rare colored dye and even higher skill to make a dye tub of that same color.

    How far would you like the system to go? Do you prefer a full-color range that allows for some odd color combinations, or a more limited one that preserves visual fidelity and realism?

    I kind of discussed this earlier, but to go in a little bit more in-depth. I do not want the ability for people to add a metallic sheen to wood or bark to give it a metal appearance, same with cloth clothing. I am on the fence of giving people the color wheel and letting them choose freely or give them a hex-based/256 based color system to select dyes. I think that would be an awesome and fun idea, so people can really play the game for fashion or to show allegiances like above and seeing these colors would be awesome. However, I think that if the art/developers could create a set of 128 colors that are craftable and can be matched to all pieces (A jungle green on cloth would look different than it would on a wood piece or a metal piece because of the material it's put into) it would also be an acceptable approach.

    I also think making dyes an Ember purchase/Package purchase is not a right idea either. I think all dyes should remain in-game achievable.
  • SweatycupSweatycup Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited June 16
    How do you feel about dying your gear?
    It's nice to be able to choose your favorite color or a certain look base off-color.

    How far would you like the system to go?
    To be able to dye certain items or stain certain woods for shields or w/e. When i think dying i think more beyond the ink and more about technique to create the tint or shade or color. To be able to dye would require the right person to apply dye/stain/whatever technique. Mixing colors to create different hues would be a cool idea. 1/2 white mixed with 1/2 black = 1 gal gray . You could go further and create hues manually in the process by watering down and vice versa. Add a system for leather workers to lighten/darken leathers and armorers to plate over the existing metal heavy armors with new flare addons instead of dying actual colors.

    Do you prefer a full-color range that allows for some odd color combinations, or a more limited one that preserves visual fidelity and realism?
    I think to a point somewhere in-between those points would be ideal. Some parts may be colorable and some not. It's a video game not based off real-life dragons so i got to say i think it might be okay to dye any color as long a the color choices dont get out of hand by making sure the texture and hue are correct to the supposed item. You might have a bright white sheet to a bright red sheet. I wouldn't expect to see a piece of plate armor to be "Dyed" Maybe taken to a blacksmith and plated with a new color/design over or replacing the existing design.
  • CawwCaww Member
    no Neon please...
  • MinusMinus Member
    edited June 16
    black is the most beautiful color, everyone wants to be able to use it, don't make it a currency exchange, whatever you do please do not make this color difficult to obtain
    Novus ordo seclorum
  • DolyemDolyem Member
    I love gear color customization. But I am torn between:

    - Wanting limited palettes per piece of gear to maintain a sort of immersion while allowing for enough of a change to match certain themes.

    and

    - Wanting completely free range of color customization so we can see people running around in mock ups of Shrek and other silly things.


    But in all honesty the first one should be prioritized in my opinion. So many MMO's go the silly route that it pretty much just makes me groan out of exhaustion from seeing something like the antagonist in the WoW southpark episode. Try to make it as customizable as possible while also maintaining a living world immersion as far as aesthetic goes.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • clone63clone63 Member
    Very much would prefer limited colour choices to maintain realism- metals should look metallic, leather on the brown/neutral scale, etc.
    If there's going to be neon colours outside of lore friendly designs, then maybe limit them to cosmetic apparel so you wont find rainbow diarrhea in the wild or battlefields. Bizarre dresses in a town square? Ok, makes some sense..
  • I love armor dye customization in games. Even if the armor is basic if I can dye that basic armor my favorite colors I can enjoy leveling a lot more especially if the dye option is on the fly and free like gw2.

    The dye colors should be account wide once they are unlocked and earnable through multiple ways. Gw2 allows players to craft dyes, buy dyes for money or from black lion AH, gives them away for player character birthdays(day character was made), a rng dye item that drops from normal gameplay, and if you get repeat dyes you can throw them in the mystic forge to roll for another color.

    Gw2 has by far my most favorite color dye system in any MMO ive played. Do some people dye their characters like lollypops? Yes. Can that annoy people looking for a more *realistic* high fantasy game? Yes yes it does. But having 30 shades of brown with no bright accent colors (those bubblegum and cotton candy dyes) means Ill be back playing Wrath of the Lich King where there was almost no armors colors besides black, grey, and brown and it was drab and boring.

    If every character is brown or silver or gold or black there is very little diversity and freedom when it comes to color pallettes. If the dye must be limited please keep the basic greens, blue, reds, ect but make them change in saturation depending on what type of cloth, leather, metal it is being attached to. If a piece of gear has any glowy bits let those be dye able to brighter color choices.

    One other game that recently released with an awesome character customizer is Tiny Tinas Wonderlands. The colors and customizations are dropped by foes on death and the colors and armor designs are cool as a mash up of D&D meets borderlands. The color options in that game can be very creative when used with other colors.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Limited. Must include dark navy blue, brass gold, dark cherry red.
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