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Dev Discussion #42 - Gear Color Customization

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  • EtniciaEtnicia Member
    Summary of Dev. Discussion in CiS community 17-06-22

    Adjusting the color palette of one's gear.

    Opinion No 1 )

    Since there is magic in the world of Verra - the options of coloring should be unlimited, with lots of details that can be colored.

    Opinion No 2)

    There should not be toxic colors in this world, the colors should be cohesive with the world and the material they are used on. A wooden shield can be colored/tinted, but it should be always visible that it is a wooden shield.

    Opinion No 3)

    It's fun to experiment with colors and have to opportunity to color one's gear, the color palette should be limited to the world - if it's not represented anywhere in the world of Terra it should not be possible to use in color the gear.

    Opinion No 4)

    Depending on what is used to achieve the color should determent the durability and vibrancy of the color.

    If armor is colored using magic instead of alchemical dyes, then it wouldn't make sense for the color to stay on permanently, it should only stay until the magic fades and then revert back to its natural color. Or there can be an ongoing mana resource cost to keep the color active.

    If the item is colored by natural means ( using what Verra has to offer) through alchemy the color should be permanent/semi-permanent.
    It should also be affected by what type of material is colored. One can easily color a cloth but will struggle to even tint wood and won't be able to color metal at all using plants.
    It can also play into different professions - a wordsmith is probably the one you shoud go to to color your wooden shield.
  • SnowElfSnowElf Member
    Q: How do you feel about dying your gear?
    A: Love being able to customize and dye certain types of gear and blend in different colors.

    Q: How far would you like the system to go?
    A: Pretty far but within reason. There are some MMOs out there which allow for some of the strangest colorations which can start to become silly.. Such as Hot Pink Frog Head cosmetics with Gold disco boots.

    Q: Do you prefer a full-color range that allows for some odd color combinations, or a more limited one that preserves visual fidelity and realism?
    A: The latter. Limited color range in order to preserve the visual fidelity, realism, and roleplay within a game. Allowing for a full-spectrum of color sounds amazing, but in practice, it can start to tear away at the fabric of immersion and start to feel like a fever dream of frankensteins amalgamations.

    If you give players an ich, they'll take a mile.
  • derpderp Member
    Vaknar wrote: »
    gear_color_optimization.gif?h=250

    Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

    Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!

    Dev Discussion - Gear Color Customization
    How do you feel about dying your gear? How far would you like the system to go? Do you prefer a full-color range that allows for some odd color combinations, or a more limited one that preserves visual fidelity and realism?

    Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding World Map Discovery!

    I prefer limited option so you can dye full armour sets in 1 go. This will probably allow you guys more Dev time too.
  • TyranthraxusTyranthraxus Member
    edited June 17
    Personally, would like to see the color being set-from-crafting on any crafted gear, and then player-made kits being available to color/re-color the cosmetics.

    Just feels like this would bolster the economy, both ways.

    In addition? The option to match other parts of your gear to either match-to-chest or to not; it shouldn't be forced.



  • edited June 17
    I enjoy the dye system for ESO. But can't stand BDO's dye system. It's too detailed and absolutely no one is zooming in on your outfit because you dyed a certain button blue lol. Just have a 3 or 4 channel dye system on each armor piece / weapon piece and call it a day.
  • WuqingYeWuqingYe Member
    edited June 17
    Coloring is a must! :D keeps everyone with similar lvling gear still looking different haha I'd definitely recommend staying away from neon colors though ... you still want your realistic world to look realistic! (i.e. I don't think people wanna see flaming pink or obnoxious yellow armor running around -- accents are fine lmao)
  • SpudzSpudz Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    How do you feel about dying your gear?
    I'm not a big fan as it doesn't add a lot of value to my experience. In addition, I feel at times it detracts from the experience as I like the recognition of specific pieces of gear on other player, as it demonstrates their achievements, "oh wow they have X,Y, Z weapon/armour.... they must've killed x/crafted y/ or looted z' that's so cool. I appreciate there is probably a balance where both customisation and maintaining appearance designed fidelity can coexist.

    How far would you like the system to go?
    I'd prefer a more limited system, while a dye system isn't for me, I appreciate it's a cool feature for many. If the system was limited to crafted gear, or maybe only certain items or qualities, that might be a good balance between preserving rare/revered pieces of gear and their appearance and allowing flexibility in colours.

    Do you prefer a full-color range that allows for some odd color combinations, or a more limited one that preserves visual fidelity and realism?
    Definitely on the side of limitation to preserve realism and visual fidelity. Neon colours/fluros detract from my game experience as they ruin/break my immersion.
  • LithionLithion Member
    HOT TAKE: I think we SHOULD have fluorescent dyes and bright neon colors that glow and shine. I have seen a lot of people here be very vocal against bright dyes like that but I disagree, and here is why...

    Most people seem to think that neon colors break the immersion of a fantasy world, but I don't think that is true for ashes. In ashes of creation there are fluorescent and luminescent things EVERYWHERE! There are many different bright colored plants, animals, and even the humanoids shoot neon lights from their finger tips. It wouldn't be abnormal at all to assume that humanoids also use all this flora and fauna to make dyes with the same luminous colors, or they use magic enchanting to make dye glow or be bright hues. I think in fact it would be more weird if everything in the world was glowing and bright yet intrepid decide to limit the players to not be allowed to match the world and all its beautiful colors.

    All in all I think bright colors or even glowing colors should definitely be added, even if only for top end super rare drops. The world of Verra is vibrant and colorful, so we should be able to match that vibrancy.
  • edited June 17
    Lithion wrote: »
    HOT TAKE: I think we SHOULD have fluorescent dyes and bright neon colors that glow and shine. I have seen a lot of people here be very vocal against bright dyes like that but I disagree, and here is why...

    Most people seem to think that neon colors break the immersion of a fantasy world, but I don't think that is true for ashes. In ashes of creation there are fluorescent and luminescent things EVERYWHERE! There are many different bright colored plants, animals, and even the humanoids shoot neon lights from their finger tips. It wouldn't be abnormal at all to assume that humanoids also use all this flora and fauna to make dyes with the same luminous colors, or they use magic enchanting to make dye glow or be bright hues. I think in fact it would be more weird if everything in the world was glowing and bright yet intrepid decide to limit the players to not be allowed to match the world and all its beautiful colors.

    All in all I think bright colors or even glowing colors should definitely be added, even if only for top end super rare drops. The world of Verra is vibrant and colorful, so we should be able to match that vibrancy.

    Why majority of us are against it, is not because of immersion. It's simply an eyesore. The more glowy items you introduce that a player can wear, the more of a competition it becomes of "Who can be the glowiest there is". While there are and will be things in Verra that glows such as plants and creatures in the world, it's subtle and there was thought put into those design choices.

    Not only is this an eyesore for the community of players themselves. It will hurt the creative internal team. Intrepid marketing dept will start pushing for more glowy things to be introduced due to them overperforming vs a basic horse. I mean, why pay $20 in the cashshop for a basic horse when you can get a $30 sparkly neon green one?! That's 101 marketing for you. So internal creative team will end up being forced to pump out glowy assets for the sake of money and performance. I'd rather have AOC introduce the more glowy things later on when the game is struggling or it's in between DLC development and revenue is stale.
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited June 17
    Lithion wrote: »
    HOT TAKE: I think we SHOULD have fluorescent dyes and bright neon colors that glow and shine. I have seen a lot of people here be very vocal against bright dyes like that but I disagree, and here is why...

    Most people seem to think that neon colors break the immersion of a fantasy world, but I don't think that is true for ashes. In ashes of creation there are fluorescent and luminescent things EVERYWHERE! There are many different bright colored plants, animals, and even the humanoids shoot neon lights from their finger tips. It wouldn't be abnormal at all to assume that humanoids also use all this flora and fauna to make dyes with the same luminous colors, or they use magic enchanting to make dye glow or be bright hues. I think in fact it would be more weird if everything in the world was glowing and bright yet intrepid decide to limit the players to not be allowed to match the world and all its beautiful colors.

    All in all I think bright colors or even glowing colors should definitely be added, even if only for top end super rare drops. The world of Verra is vibrant and colorful, so we should be able to match that vibrancy.

    Why majority of us are against it, is not because of immersion. It's simply an eyesore. The more glowy items you introduce that a player can wear, the more of a competition it becomes of "Who can be the glowiest there is". While there are and will be things in Verra that glows such as plants and creatures in the world, it's subtle and there was thought put into those design choices.

    Pk players who do wear that sort of thing if you don't like it so passionately. I don't see why the game should artificially limit it. We have in game open pvp for exactly this type of 'political' conflict. If it really is an eyesore persuade people through in game violence. Attitude and prevalence will differ per server as it should.

    I think the prediction of it being a rampant eyesore is overstated, especially if you tie it to in game materials. Most people in favor of no limits just want fine control over their coloration knowing that restrictions might mean a good option gets eliminated in the crossfire. Meanwhile people trying to bait rainbow haters will look very obvious. That's user generated content in my opinion.

    Fluorescent being prevalent colors in the underrealm is a really good point btw @Lithion. The lighting down there is going to make most standard pallets completely nonfunctional if that's your main node.

    There is a trade off between being visible and less visible that I think would be a particularly interesting decision to make. I think the gameplay in the underrealm would be missing a huge opportunity without access to that color palette in fact.

    We definitely need material based fluorescent palette dyes the more I think about it. Gives a good incentive for certain people to visit the Underrealm at least once, and makes the supply of the dye a meta-political objective for pvp.
    Now serving since 1889
  • Please don’t make me pay for black :)
  • BaSkA13BaSkA13 Member
    Vaknar wrote: »
    gear_color_optimization.gif?h=250

    Dev Discussion - Gear Color Customization
    How do you feel about dying your gear? How far would you like the system to go? Do you prefer a full-color range that allows for some odd color combinations, or a more limited one that preserves visual fidelity and realism?

    I don't mind being able to dye gear in whatever color from the RGB spectrum or from only 20 different options, but I hope you can't dye your gear to a different color entirely. I hope one can't turn a mostly white cloth armor set into a completely or mostly black cloth armor set, instead you should only be able to dye parts of it black, only adding some details in black (or whichever color).

    In other words, I don't care about which colors you can dye your gear, as long as it only adds some minor details to it, not completely changing its original color.
  • TalentsTalents Member, Intrepid Pack
    As others have said, it depends on the type of gear.

    For example, this costume you should be able to dye the cloak and maybe the eye glow from Yellow to Blue or Red if you wanted.
    Vestiges_of_the_Steel_Bloom.png


    But you shouldn't be able to change the actual armour to be pink or yellow or whatever.
    nI17Ea4.png
  • LithionLithion Member
    Why majority of us are against it, is not because of immersion. It's simply an eyesore. The more glowy items you introduce that a player can wear, the more of a competition it becomes of "Who can be the glowiest there is". While there are and will be things in Verra that glows such as plants and creatures in the world, it's subtle and there was thought put into those design choices.

    Not only is this an eyesore for the community of players themselves. It will hurt the creative internal team. Intrepid marketing dept will start pushing for more glowy things to be introduced due to them overperforming vs a basic horse. I mean, why pay $20 in the cashshop for a basic horse when you can get a $30 sparkly neon green one?! That's 101 marketing for you. So internal creative team will end up being forced to pump out glowy assets for the sake of money and performance. I'd rather have AOC introduce the more glowy things later on when the game is struggling or it's in between DLC development and revenue is stale.

    This is actually a good argument for not having them that i hadn't considered! However i think it could still be possible to combat this IF we can trust Steven to truly be more focused on making a good game than making money. If they limit glowing dyes to be made only my master alchemists using high tier raid rewards to craft and make the dye only able to cover accents or trim of gear instead of a walking neon green glowing breastplate lol. I guess in that case we could just make glow come with certain armors instead of through the dye system... hmmm idk.

    WAIT i just realized before i posted... there is already going to be glows in the game through payed cosmetics lol. So i think the problem you mentioned is already starting unfortunately, i can think of at least 2 with aura glows
  • TyrakkelTyrakkel Member
    While dye systems like GW2 and BDO are broad and can have a lot of thought put into them, I find it overwhelmingly easy to spend hours swapping through options till I find something that "works", just to end up with a color that doesn't look the same with in-game lighting(BDO, yes you can view different light sources in the dye menu, but it doesn't look the same out in the world). GW2, meanwhile, has a wide selection of metallic colors(good!), but the lack of determinism in which colors you unlock means you're left to pick through what you have. I'm sure more veteran players don't have this issue, but games aren't made solely for veterans.

    FFXIV, on the other hand, is more limited, with far fewer available dyes and only one dye channel on any given gear piece, but with high determinism to which dyes you access, as well as some requiring either 1) quest completion or 2) buying it off the marketboard. We don't talk about rare pure white/black dyes that are either locked under layers of timers and RNG or $$, except to say "Please don't do that". I do not feel that the single dye channel reduces player expression in a meaningful way, as it adds some constraint to which colors I would want on any given piece of armor. Is it frustrating that I can't change the color of metallic accents on XYZ piece of gear? Yes, but the same problem exists in GW2/BDO-- What if I want the strip of leather across the chest and the sleeves to be different colors? On the other hand, swapping colors to try out a new look feels much easier than it does in GW2/BDO.

    Regarding color range available to players: This is a question of art direction for the project as a whole. Looking at available FFXIV colors as an example, there is a deep range of orange/brown/yellow tones available, with very limited bands of red/green/blue/purple, as those are the colors that their developers decided defined the appearance of their game. While I am not an artist/designer myself, I like this! I don't believe it is necessary, or that BDO and GW2 art direction suffer from not strongly embodying this, but I understand how this could contribute toward the visual fidelity of the game.

    However, I think there is an opportunity to explore innovation with that idea, bouncing off a facet of the question from this thread. What if Empyrean and Kaelar gear had a different range of colors available? What if Py'rai and Empyrean gear had different colors available to them? Maybe not like, "Empyrean gear can't be green, but Py'rai can", but that Py'rai colors dipped further into natural tones, while Empyrean dipped deeper into more saturated colors?

    Anyway. From a player standpoint, the ~fashion end-game~ is important to me, as everyone knows that looking good increases your DPS. I am mostly indifferent to having a complicated vs. simple coloring system(Eg., multiple dye channels vs. single dye channels), as long as the preview is representative of in-game lighting. In terms of dye acquisition, I think simple is best. Let me hit a rock in a forest biome to get a green pigment, and that can be used to craft any green dye. Maybe you can only buy white dye if you invest in a religious node(but it can be sold to other players). Making specific dyes drop only from end-game content turns it into a false status symbol that is just a PITA once that content is no longer current. Not abhorred by the idea of buying dye on a cash shop, but having cash shop exclusive dye is cringe.
  • CraikenCraiken Member
    I'd prefer limited dye options. I like it when an item's visual appearance means something.
  • DiamahtDiamaht Member, Braver of Worlds, Alpha One
    I would prefer a wide open system for gear. Guild Wars 2 has a fantastic customization system, as does Star Wars The Old Republic. Warframe is another great example, too flashy for Ashes maybe but still a good example of how to do it. I wouldn't want to see tons of limits on customization.

    If we are worried about the aesthetic, which we rightfully should be, we could do a couple of things:
    1) Develop a very large palate of colors and shades that would all be appropriate. Leave out the neon but give us tons of options.
    2) Have the material they are applied to dictate the texture and saturation. If we want blue leather, that's fine because it would still look like leather.

    Some have implied that brighter colors don't fit into a medieval setting. That's actually not true, lots of brighter colors were used in fashion, emblems and livery.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 18
    Talents wrote: »
    As others have said, it depends on the type of gear.

    For example, this costume you should be able to dye the cloak and maybe the eye glow from Yellow to Blue or Red if you wanted.
    Vestiges_of_the_Steel_Bloom.png


    But you shouldn't be able to change the actual armour to be pink or yellow or whatever.
    But...
    I would love to be able to tarnish that armor with rust or Slime gunk or scorch marks from a Lightning Dragon or stains from a Spitting Dredgehorn, or punctures from a Glimmering Geode...
  • CadacCadac Member
    "a more limited one that preserves visual fidelity and realism" I would vote for this.

    "But...
    I would love to be able to tarnish that armor with rust or Slime gunk or scorch marks from a Lightning Dragon or stains from a Spitting Dredgehorn, or punctures from a Glimmering Geode...[/quote]"

    If your gear could present accumulated battle damage, I would prefer it to any dying system. Visual damage would be removed when repaired. However I am not a fan of adding more active systems for the game to manage.
    @Dygz Idea is probably the most practical, for what I would like to see.



  • HaileeHailee Member
    I'd love for the items to be as customisable as possible. Letting people people colour as they want will just add to the immersion and make the gear really feel like it's yours because you've poured your heart into not only obtaining it but also into making it look exactly how you want it too.

    And for that reason I'd like every colour be available and have the options to change multiple parts or layers of the gear. Add emblems or cosmetic flairs.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited June 18
    If the color exists in the game in any form, on any plant or creature or mineral, I would like it as a dye option.

    If you check out this video below, we can see some glowing crystals outside the entrance to the underrealm being very bright in the sunlight as well. The underrealm as a whole is full of very vibrant colors of all kinds.
    Later in the video we see a lot of vibrant pink to red variants of tree and flower colors. I expect to be able to dye my armor like that as well.



    For more underrealm photos: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Underrealm#Artwork
    AshesOfCreation_68.jpg

    And obviously I'd like to see all the colors from flowers and foliage in the forest as well as from all the other biomes. :wink:

    vlcsnap-2017-10-17-11h45m01s715.png
  • edited June 18
    Nerror wrote: »
    If the color exists in the game in any form, on any plant or creature or mineral, I would like it as a dye option.

    If you check out this video below, we can see some glowing crystals outside the entrance to the underrealm being very bright in the sunlight as well. The underrealm as a whole is full of very vibrant colors of all kinds.
    Later in the video we see a lot of vibrant pink to red variants of tree and flower colors. I expect to be able to dye my armor like that as well.



    For more underrealm photos: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Underrealm#Artwork
    AshesOfCreation_68.jpg

    And obviously I'd like to see all the colors from flowers and foliage in the forest as well as from all the other biomes. :wink:

    vlcsnap-2017-10-17-11h45m01s715.png

    Hi @Nerror The images you are referencing, do you see how thoughtful these ACCENTS of neon or bright colors are placed? It's because you have real designers behind the game actually making thoughtful decisions. While if you give players with no real design experience that freedom, you'll have characters so glowy you can't even tell they are players. GW2 is fine example of that.

    I don't mind accents of neon, let's say you are wearing end game armor pieces such as a magical necklace or a pair of gloves that were forged using ancient magic etc. But most of us just don't want to see players going beyond tacky with it. As i said in a previous comment, it becomes like a competition "Who can glow the most!!!".
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Dye sets, with dev designated pallettes would be preferable, yes.
  • NerrorNerror Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Nerror wrote: »
    If the color exists in the game in any form, on any plant or creature or mineral, I would like it as a dye option.

    If you check out this video below, we can see some glowing crystals outside the entrance to the underrealm being very bright in the sunlight as well. The underrealm as a whole is full of very vibrant colors of all kinds.
    Later in the video we see a lot of vibrant pink to red variants of tree and flower colors. I expect to be able to dye my armor like that as well.



    For more underrealm photos: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Underrealm#Artwork
    AshesOfCreation_68.jpg

    And obviously I'd like to see all the colors from flowers and foliage in the forest as well as from all the other biomes. :wink:

    vlcsnap-2017-10-17-11h45m01s715.png

    Hi @Nerror The images you are referencing, do you see how thoughtful these ACCENTS of neon or bright colors are placed? It's because you have real designers behind the game actually making thoughtful decisions. While if you give players with no real design experience that freedom, you'll have characters so glowy you can't even tell they are players. GW2 is fine example of that.

    I don't mind accents of neon, let's say you are wearing end game armor pieces such as a magical necklace or a pair of gloves that were forged using ancient magic etc. But most of us just don't want to see players going beyond tacky with it. As i said in a previous comment, it becomes like a competition "Who can glow the most!!!".

    I hear you, and I have no problem if they limit the glow intensity or certain combinations that really clash. But I would rather they err on the side of freedom for players than on the side of prohibition.
  • EthiolEthiol Member
    Since I also like to color myself, I am in favor of the possibility of coloring. Of course you could now think about not making the colors too extreme, for example, so that you don't lose the illusion. On the other hand, there are already some strong colors in the costumes. After all, we're also talking about a fantasy world here, and around GW 2 I hardly ever had anyone who was completely out of the ordinary. And I found that more funny than wrong. I'm sure there are arguments for and against making it overly colorful, but I wouldn't mind the freedom to express yourself in any way you choose.
  • > No super saturated dyes - dull down the spectrum at either end.
    > Super intricate however with the ability to coulor whatever part or multiple groups of parts.
    > Material and patterns would be a great option as well.
    > Earn colours, patterns, materials in game via game play or professions
    > Could have sort after and hard to achieve > glows, smoke, shimmer ect as prestige effects as another option in materials. Also with colour and effect strength editable. Just little effects not eye bleeding full transformations
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  • SnowjadeSnowjade Member
    I like to look different than everyone else, within reason. Please keep colors within reason to the cultures access to dyes.

    Dye: color of material.
    Paints: Color of drawings/pictures/insignias.
    Wear and tear: appearance additions such as mud, dirt, torn and/or frayed clothing. Broken parts of armor, dents, dings, scrapes and scratches.

    I'm more interested in the wear and tear if it can be added. As people have already commented, please no super glaring like neon. Paints would be cool. However, if I can get a nice mix of dyes and water and tear id be able to make a lot of customizations.

    As far as having different metallic colors on metals, it should be kept to culture access again.
  • SeloSelo Member
    Weapons and shields should have looks and colors based on their elements and not be dyable
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  • maouwmaouw Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Hi hi,
    I like the communities' comments so far, I just want to add:
    PATTERNS!

    Especially for cloths/fabrics:
    • polkadots - resizeable, density options
    • stripes - rotate, thickness, density options

    Would also be awesome if we could make use of in-game emblems in our designs :)

    However, I'd much prefer good performance over these features.
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  • edited June 19
    maouw wrote: »
    Hi hi,
    I like the communities' comments so far, I just want to add:
    PATTERNS!

    Especially for cloths/fabrics:
    • polkadots - resizeable, density options
    • stripes - rotate, thickness, density options

    Would also be awesome if we could make use of in-game emblems in our designs :)

    However, I'd much prefer good performance over these features.

    Polkadots/Stripes. Only if it makes sense with the fabric. And for polkadots, it would need to be fabric patches or very noticeable paint brush strokes. Because i highly doubt world of Verra knows how to screenprint... In my opinion polkadots to not belong in AoC. Polkadots were created in the 19th century in real life. World of Verra wouldn't know what that is, even if it's a fantasy game. Those elements are too close to modern day design.
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