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Dev Discussion #42 - Gear Color Customization

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Comments

  • Fluorescent dyes could be made to glow in the dark, and be rare like flying mounts and only used as accents on various areas of armour.
    Imagination could go wild with ways in which players could find, earn or make dyes. The cave behind a frozen wall thaws with a random chance to spawn a dangerous flower mob who once defeated drops a calyx which can be used as an ingredient.
    I also like the guild colour palette idea.
    However I’m also on the fence like Dezzrevas is above with regards to progression or unlocks. But no limit to imagination or risk reward so I wouldn’t waste an opportunity to add some AOS creative license.
    Cheers
  • BrujoBrujo Member
    Nothing immersion breaking. FFXIV has some pretty crazy colors but it's not immersion breaking. Put more effort into particle effects and making things pop rather than just going for the weirdest RGB colors.
  • pahapaha Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    I prefer more limited colors that preserves visual fidelity. I've also enjoyed aspect that some rarer options or colors being rare or gained from specific source. I fear too wild visuals can also break immersion and take away from "seriousness" of the themes or setting. Fun and enjoyment is obvious, but I guess at the end what is fun and enjoyable is also subjective. Personall, I prefer sticking to theme, and not bringing in something that is just too far out of the box for the setting and themes.
  • MisfitMisfit Member
    edited July 2022
    Yes I would very much like a dye option. I'd also like to always have the option for a deep black and a bright white. Besides that I'd much prefer if colors were subdued to show more realism, rather than being too bright and clownish.
  • I agree with the limited color schemes. Being able to dye everything is awesome, but keep the color palettes within the games aesthetic.

    When people run by you with bright pink or cheerleader costumes on in a fantasy rpg = no thanks.
  • WyrdlingWyrdling Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited June 2022
    I rarely ever come on to the forums, but heard the topic in the current stream. Dye. Channels. Multiple dye locations to change parts of the item. I would lean more ESO than I would GW2, even though I absolutely love GW2 as a whole more - It's dye system, and overall aesthetic of the game becomes way too vibrant and particle laden. That mostly works because of the brush stroke style. ESO has a way more grounded, and realistic style with it's palettes being more natural looking compared to the literal experimental science colors GW2 can have. Right now with current design path of AoC, I'd say a blend between the two palette wise. Enough saturation to keep a vibrant fantasy, but still really grounded and realistic colors as the majority. Realism being only bound to the world style, not IRL style.

    Having a account bound dye collection wardrobe a huge plus. Dye collecting become it's own minigame. Just try not to abuse cash shop dyes, if any at all. Since they're technically "cosmetic".

    Edit: DYE CONSISTENCY. We get it, there are different materials that will apply the same color differently. If I apply a forest green to metal, and then leather I don't expect them to be the same. I do, however, expect an attempt that when applying colors to the same armor, that unless specified, all metals should maintain the same saturation level across the same shade intensity of color. So the a green and a purple with the same black/white values should be fairly even with color range. GW2 had such a major issue of the same dye changing drastically from item to item, making it's own struggle of finding a color in the same value but different intensity to match gear really rough if there was no saturation match. This meant many items simply could not be styled together without a very stark color contrast leading to a messy color theme.

    ...Lets not forget fashion, like Fashion Wars 2, can be an end-game of it's own for a lot of players. There needs to be a lot more cosmetic chase that isn't just end game unlocks or cash shop unlocks.
  • kaegkaeg Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    edited June 2022
    I would love to be able to have as many shades, tints, and hues as possible in order to dye not only gear pieces, but furniture and household items as well as mounts, etc. I'd love to be able to paint my boat bright purple if I wanted. A color wheel like this https://www.canva.com/colors/color-wheel/ that someone suggested above would be cool to start from when it comes to deciding what colors should be added to the game, but I'm sure the devs want some type of unlocking/discovery way of gaining different color palettes. For example, mixing different color dyes together to unlock more tints and shades. I mean all colors come from RBY (Red, Blue, Yellow), so those three colors (along with maybe black and white to make mixing a tad easier) would be the base for mixing and learning/discovering new shades and tints...that'd be really cool.

    Also, when it comes to dying something like a piece of gear, I'd love to be able to dye as many parts of the piece of gear as possible. The same goes for furniture, mounts, etc. Now having said that, when it comes to the way that you all tried to explain it on the stream, I would have a see an in-game example of it before I comment on it.
  • Color customization on all things is a key thing in MMOs these days.
    I will say this though...not every color needs to be in the game. Or I should clarify, not all brightness levels need to be available to players. If you want to be a dwarf paladin rocking full pink and yellow plate armor, go for it. BUT! Limit the brightness scale so they don't "glow" and ruin immersion.

    Listening to the current stream and Steven talking about the two dye channel system on the paper doll, it sounds ok but at first thought limiting. I think i'd have to see it in action to really give proper feedback.

    However, i think the application of the dye to a new piece of gear you find should be a manual opt in step. When ever I find new gear, I like to see what it looks like "as is". How it drops and how the designers intend it to look. This really helps players discover potential new styles or looks.

    I'd also like to hear more explanation about how the dye system works as a mechanic in the game. Are they craftable things? is it a profession you can pursue? If items come with certain dyes on them, perhaps we could break them down and analyze their color tones so we could then apply that color to other pieces?

    The idea of the two channel system is a good idea, and I think will help keep the game in a more realistic state. But imo the idea needs a little more refinement and options.
  • I quite dislike the idea of limiting the dyes to the whole set. I understand that freedom of dyes per piece allows people to create some disgusting combos and get them walking around looking silly, but I'd much rather have that freedom than limit it because some people might use it "wrong." For every person whose gear looks completely clownish, there's another whose gear looks totally stunning.
  • I like the idea of dyes, however I can't say I agree with the universal dye system Steven mentioned earlier, I think the problem with a universal dye system is that some materials/textures on gear don't end up being the right colour that the dye is depicted as thus giving you different colours on your armour which would look really janky. I think a couple of good examples of dying armours in a game is Elder Scrolls Online and Guild Wars 2, and a bad example being Destiny 2 which just has 1 flat shader for each piece of gear which makes it really hard to colour match dyes on different pieces of gear which have a different material/texture.
  • ciarennciarenn Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I enjoy colorful customization, GW2 has great customization on equipment. I like multiple color options per piece
  • I'd say depends on the vibe of the game. Also depends on the community. If you offer more realistic dye options you will have the type of gamers that prefer that; if you offer more FF style , you will have more colorful community with different tastes. So the question is: can you actually balance between the two types of players (if I allow myself to generalize it). I saw that you have some very colorful skins, but they are more or less realistic than the colorful cartoonish fantasy. It's like the question :: do you prefer to play only humans or do you prefer having fantasy races as well or do you prefer have aliens also as well.
    Also we should not forget the еnvironment.
    Here are two completely different types of MMO: L2 and FF14. In L2 you have dark fantasy gothic bla bla stuff, in FF14 you have colorful everything...literally everything. You can be a full armored dragoon or pink rabbit. Imagine if you have to balance between these two environments and characters.
    Overall: dying is awesome! I believe we should have it! But at which point it becomes too much - depends on the mood, vibe and environment of the game.
    So the choice is yours after all.
  • Every color imaginable please. If I want to make my character look like a rainbow threw up on them then why not? It hurts nothing and the players get to have fun their way.
  • ChaosFactorChaosFactor Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I may be saying something that has already been said a few times in this discussion, but I don't have hours to read each commend and I think it's very important.

    Dye on gear should never EVER overtake the texture inherent in the armor.

    Customization when it comes to dye can be done wrong very easily. It has already been mentioned that you can mix-match colors across your armor. I'm very satisfied with that, because as much as I want people to have fun, I don't want to see a multicolored power ranger running around. That being said, the reason that texture is so important, is not only to retain a sense of reality.. but also dye being a perfect paint that flawlessly colors your set of armor has no personality whatsoever. Guild Wars 2 has this issue. You start to look like a power ranger because your chain mail no longer looks like chain, your wood shield doesn't look like wood. Everything without texture begins to look like a plastic depiction of whatever you're using.

    I'm excited to see the first pass of dye systems, and as always.. Thanks for reading,
    Chaos
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  • WesleyWesley Member
    I want to have color customization be realistic for equipment. I would personally like to see this be a profession, where people can go and harvest items needed to make dyes, and they should be able to be applied more or less as the player wants. With that in mind, I do not want to see some bright neon color if you can not actually harvest or craft that color.
  • I would prefer the ability to dye piece by piece. I don't think mixing and matching colors is necessarily a bad thing. Please allow for customization. And if you don't want dyes that are get too crazy than maybe just limit the dye's by material perhaps. That way you can't have things getting too out there.
    for example I am playing a rougue and have a silk material top and leather pants and boots I don't want to be forced for everything to be blue just to get a blue top. But maybe black leather instead
  • PyrianElfPyrianElf Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Avoid immersion breaking options (though it may make sense to have bright fluorensent things for certain aspects lore wise?)

    While locking the dying process to apply for the whole armor set you are wearing and not individual pieces, there should be a set of secondary and even potentially tertiary options that “match well” with the primary color for the dye you are selecting (maybe only for premium dyes?). For example, choosing a primary red dye may give the player the option of X number or complimentary colors to be slotted into the secondary color palette of that set (e.g. red primary, gold secondary or red primary, but dark red as secondary, etc.)
  • Wizard_BeardWizard_Beard Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    i wouldn't mind being able to pick "material" as well as color...but with material i would like limitations...like i don't really want to see neon pink metal tower shields, now accents within said piece...for example you have some ornate steel pauldrons...you want to keep them metal look so you pick metal (brushed, polished, tarnished) then you can apply just metallic based colors (which, a lot of people might not know, but there are tons of variety in metallic colors) and be able to make those lighter and darker...like from a gleaming bright white gold to a very dark almost black...

    an example of the "black" end of the spectrum as it's not as well known...most people have seen polished white gold and silver.

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  • NaruirNaruir Member
    The dye system in how it was explained worries me greatly, It could limit certain armor being used together based on how it will be dyed through the channels that you are talking about, which in turn will not let people do what they want with armor combinations. Yes some people look like clowns but you will have that no matter what you do and I don't think it's fair to limit everyone for the sake of a few.
    The way Guildwars 2 handles it is done very well, but there is always room for improvement.

    -Naruir
  • FatalmistakeFatalmistake Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think color change should be limited to shading and saturation for the majority of an armor piece. Maybe actually change the base color of feathers or a silk sash.

    The risk with 100% dying is a loss of armor visual identity and even armor type.

    Thanks
  • dendaildendail Member, Founder, Kickstarter
    I want a combination of both.

    Like if someone wants pink plate armor they should be able to however, what does metal look like if it is colored pink and not painted? That should be the kind of colors we see.

    Pink would look different depending on if it's metal, leather, or cloth. Basically the material of what the color is dyeing should be just as important as the color itself.
  • I have three ideas about dyeing/character customization that seem to coincide with the design philosophy of the game and I will support it with examples. I had this idea after watching Asmongold react to the melee combat update where dyeing was mentioned in the Q&A section towards the end..

    1st Idea:
    Create a clear/translucent/transmog dye that can be put into both channels that will allow your armor to show its base look. Allowing someone to wear a clown-suit if they wish, or allow people who are into transmog to more fully customize the way each individual piece looks.

    2nd Idea:
    Allow more dye channels to be accessed through crafting to allow further customization of pieces. You mentioned 2 dye channels: 1 being 15-20% of a armor piece's look and the other being 30-35% of the armor piece's look for 50% and the other 50% was not changeable. Allow crafters to create master/advanced transmog dyes that can alter specific channels for each armor piece individually and can alter the 50% that is not normally affected by the 2 dye channels normally used.

    3rd Idea:
    Create a Fashion Designer profession that would be able to specialize in helping players who want to transmog gear to be able to fully customize gear with much greater specificity. Maybe allow another 2-4 channels for the 50% that is not normally able to be changed with normal dyeing. I don't believe that much has been said about what professions will be available exactly or how they will work specifically, so this idea is a bit out there considering the lack of information we have thus far but it is a conversation starter if nothing else.

    Further support for these ideas:
    You have consistently talked about wanting to reward people for how much effort they put in to whatever aspect of the game they are in to. Some people are really into transmog and some are not. I think it makes a lot of sense to have 2 channels that allow most players to fairly easily have a decent cohesive look without a whole lot of effort. But for those that really want to customize their look, it will be very dissatisfying to not have more options other than the two dye channels for your entire character. I think the dyes that would be used for transmog though would be more expensive/harder to get. Steven has said that people can truly hone their craft in a profession and become well known and have a great reputation for being great at their profession. I think it would be cool to have someone who was a fashion designer and they could get certain customizations that others don't have and could make the appearance of gear really unique. Potentially even being able to amalgamate two different pieces of gear to get something unique. How I picture this is if you think about a cosplayer or someone in a parade potentially - they will take a piece of clothing, usually cloth, and add a lot of elaborate feathers to it or sequins to get a specific look. The fashion designer could potentially take a cloth piece and mix it with a leather piece that has feathers or just with a feather. There could be potentially appearance upgrade slots for armor to make them unique. I picture this working potentially like wows enchanting feature. You enchant a weapon and get a specific look to the weapon signifying the effect, but instead if you mix a metal chest piece with some gems then you get back a gem crested chest piece and maybe a new dye slot that can customize the color of the gems. These dyes for transmog would be more expensive than dyes for the regular 2 channel dyes as someone going to this length to fully customize their gear is wanting a the novelty of a fully unique look that others wont have and it should come at a premium.

    A variation of the Fashion Designer profession:
    Allow all players to have a closet/transmog panel. Allow anyone to craft a blueprint or design a particular fashion. They could potentially sell these designs on an auction house. I would think it important to not reveal what they did to make it so someone cant just look at it and recreate it, unless they are just extremely familiar with the way armors look. Crafters such as leather workers or tailors or blacksmiths could add customization slots or combine armors with other armors/items for unique looks.

    Inspiration for this idea:
    I am not personally a transmogger but I enjoy watching Asmongold's transmog competitions. Some people put a whole lot of effort into making some extremely cool looking gear sets with limited resources in wow especially in the dyeing department. That being said, I think that for those that are into it, making it a prestige thing they have to work for to achieve is something that I think they would enjoy and allow them to look really cool and truly unique. I think I might would get into transmog more if I knew I could make anything I wanted. I understand that making a system like this is a huge undertaking and may not be able to make it at launch as that would be a whole lot of work for the art team to make assets for not only all the armor but then several variations on each armor piece based on what you mixed it with and additional dye colorations that affect parts of armor that right now are set in stone to give a certain look to the entire game/all characters. Nevertheless, I think it is an extremely cool concept. You asked for ideas and these are mine.
  • Ir0nSkorpIr0nSkorp Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    edited July 2022
    Hearing your explanation of how you are going to move forward with the dye system, I agree with your vision. Applying dyes to character puppets and having those dyes then apply to the channels made for equipment is a nice control. I would prefer not to see a ton of clowns running around AoC. Personally, it breaks the immersion...Unless that is a future cosmetic, like a jester of some sort. That way you are still giving players the option of looking like a clown but would preserve visual fidelity and realism.
  • Nobody is talking about HOW to obtain dyes:

    I think the aquisition of the materials / crafting of the dyes needs to be tied to hunting monsters / gathering / farming / player skills, so that dyes are an actual product on the in-game market.

    As an example, in OSRS you take woad leaves for Blue, onions for Yellow, redberries for Red, and take them to a witch. (a barebones system with all mats spawning in several locations in the world and crafted by an npc) After you make the base dyes you can combine them to get different colors (orange, green, purple). I'd rather the game have this, but getting or unlocking a level to make a premium/more rare/exotic color dye to be a part of the game's economy.

    This would also help to stave off power creep - you can make bosses and monsters drop materials for crafting cosmetic dyes instead of the next biggest ax. Imagine killing a super rare Faerie Dragon, which drops a viridian gland, which you can take to an alchemist to brew a majestic emerald dye, with sparkles as if its magic or made of actual gem stones.

    If you care about farming (growing plants) as much as I do in mmos, then please, if there's going to be farming, make it BIG, as in, sow a field of like, 40x40 player sized squares of space, and add a COMFORTABLE way of gathering a large amount, instead of how most MMOS do it either by clicking once to gather the entire field, avoiding the process of harvesting which is also pleasurable, or clicking on every single piece of grain, similar to Stardew Valley (not a mmorpg, but still). I'd rather there be a comfortable method of like swinging a harvesting scythe then gathering up all you've cut down in heaps.
  • NoggoNoggo Member
    Generally speaking I'm a fan of not looking like a clown, so having a uniform color scheme does sound appealing. Though I would propably need to see a couple examples first to build a proper opinion on it. What I am curious about though is, will endgame bosses, such as for example a big fire dragon, drop very rare and exclusive dyes, that will not only color your gear but also give you some sort of effect with flames coming from your gear and make your character look like its on fire?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    I was very glad to hear Steven mentioning their mechanic for preventing the garish "rainbow effect".
    I'm eager to see a demo of that.
  • rare dyes from ingredients that bosses drop could also have extra properties, such as a faint glow or make it glisten and reflect as if its wet, even cooler - slight air distortion effect as if from hot sand, or mist as if it's really cold. Basically it doesn't have to just be color of the surface, but also some special effects, IF it's from a rare enough source.

    Or my first idea - make it sparkle as if it's not just paint but a thin cover of gems of that color. What would a shoulder coated in a layer of fine emeralds look like in the sun?
  • Personally I think that there should be a slight limitation in terms of dying the gear in order to prevent the odd neon like combinations because it will break the immersion. However, the more options of coloring equipment the better but it should follow the realistic route. For example, the pattern and shading of the dye might reflect the material that the gear is made of. There is nothing wrong with big pallet of color and options if it reflects the immersive pattern and shading of the equipment. I think that a good example of this system might be ESO.
  • Muted colors, while saturated colors will be reserved for items that are very rare. Like for example one unique epic sword that drops rate is so low its almost impossible to get. So it should depend on rarity of item and only those items can be dyed into saturated colors.
    I am talking Thunderfury, Blessed blade of Windseeker or Blades of Azzinoth level of rarity if anyone from your team played WoW
    Now I am going of topic, but I have to say this- Face of Sorrow and Stillsoul Plate suck. For starters, I cant tell for which level are they and that should be noticed immediately. Its poorly designed compared to other armorsets and the use of glowing eyes make it sooooo cheesy if its a low level armor. Will you guys stop doing that? Everything glows! Mob eyes, low level weapons glow, level 20 armor glows-Why?
    Even those small low level mobs like goblins have glowing eyes? That should be reserved for high level mobs.
    I COMMEND you for your latest armor though. That armor made out of reddish bronze leaves is sick!
  • willchrisiamwillchrisiam Member
    edited July 2022
    I'm not really a fan of Steven's proposal. I don't want my eyeballs to get bombarded with toxic waste clown colors but I don't want all my outfits to be the same color (the character/paper doll proposal). I also don't want all of the pieces to be the same color. Are your pants and t shirt always the same color? No? So why do you wanna force monochromatic looks on us?
    Why can't we go fully black, white, red, navy etc? Up to 50% means that the gold and silver pieces are most likely to stay unchanged. I like mixing metals in my jewelry but I'd like to be able to change let's say a silver chest piece to better match the rest of my gold set.

    I understand the concern but how did we get from ''the game with the most amount of customizations'' to ''you can only have 1 accent color per set and by the way all your sets are gonna be that exact color unless you keep reapplying dyes to your paper doll''?

    And like a broken record I'm going back to my now catchphrase - what about the Whispering Watcher?! You can have a green purple lion/bird hybrid with a human head and Medusa ''hairstyle'' but you can't mix and match colors? What realism are we talking about here?
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