I wrote a post in 2020 about the importance of core combat and to my delight it looks like the development has taken the right direction as many have pointed out, that said here are my initial thoughts based on the preview:
* Combat (or at least the basic combo) seems a bit too fast paced for both light and heavy weapons. I'd like to see both top and bottom boundary moved slightly towards slower side in general.
* Daggers seem like they could be a bit more fluid. I can't really put my finger on it but there is something jarring about the combat. Maybe slower base combo with a few more animation frames to tie in end and beginning of attack chain could solve that?
* Smashing ground is something you'd generally want to avoid with sharp weapons, it looks cool but feels wrong. Some abilities can hit the ground: overhead swing actually looks and feels right. Maybe two handed swords should actually be a medium weapon, or there should be two categories of large swords (Greatsword and Longsword, for example, where greatswords are a bit closer to a hammer than sword)? Or maybe there can be a stat (strength) defining threshold for the largest weapons which will determine if your character is thrown around by the weight of the weapon like we were shown instead of them properly wielding the object (souls-like games)?
* We have not yet been shown hammers, but I would imagine hammers actually define the slowest and weightiest combat speed with least player agency; slow attacks that come often to a full stop.
So... I loved the combat direction, I just worry about one thing... and that is TTK, I hope intrepid stick to their original vision of Counter Play with a high TTK of 1 minute, all this combat will be meaningless if people can do 1 rotation and end a fight, or be like BDO whoever jumps on on you first gets the kill...
On the 10th time of watching the video, I wondered: "what is missing?".... I know it's in the process of working, but there is no sound of snoring, human breathing or grunting in battle!!!!! I am delighted with the work done, I am really looking forward to the rest)
So... I loved the combat direction, I just worry about one thing... and that is TTK, I hope intrepid stick to their original vision of Counter Play with a high TTK of 1 minute, all this combat will be meaningless if people can do 1 rotation and end a fight, or be like BDO whoever jumps on on you first gets the kill...
Ya bdo is wack with TTK. Got to the point people just baited grab and ran away until they got it for the cc to one shot or one combo.
Granted I do hope there is some form of combos in this game, maybe more limited to one hard cc and one stiffen and push back. Could even mix up effects like push back is affective against active guard and causes them to be unable to active guard for a short duration or something.
In terms of animations, movement and camera controll in melee combat Archeage was the most satisfying for me.But in action combat mmo BlackDesert nailed the impact with hit sounds, effects and when you miss or enemy dodges your attack you could feel it not only with numbers but the little tweek in the animations and sound effects.In an Archeage update they introduce some action combat melee skills which didnt feel as much good as before because you couldnt feel the hits or miss or when you crit.You could still do the dmg and see numbers but the satisfactions was nowhere close.My desire for melee combat is whether action combat or not I want to feel the impact of my attacks.In the video you shared I could feel the impacts but they felt almost equal with heavy and light weapons which could diffrent.Where when you hit big with your combo finisher or the upperslash after whirlwind a more impactfull effect/sound/shake could improve it.Overall tho as for alpha I thing current progress of the game is going in really good way in terms of player experience.Please keep it up you have our support!
Aesthetically I like motion blur/ screen shakes but as a PvPer I always turn it off to make it easier to track targets. Personally I wouldn't give the player the option as I like to maximize skill gaps but I understand this isn't a huge deal for many.
The attack animations seem visually accelerated/unnatural personally speaking (mostly the daggers) but I'm not bothered by it in terms of game play.
Wide range AOE attacks with daggers seems visually weird but also not bothered by it.
Love the movement, weighted feel, sound effects and animations. Keep up the good work!
Good progress on animation, combat fluidity and "modernlike" feel. Keep the track on that. When polished it will be really good for sure and i have no doubts about it.
Concerns i would like to raise out are the melee basic combat tempo itself. You should increase the spectrum of speed, making heavy weapons wayyyyy slower. It had a tekken/anime/hack&slash like feeling more than a rpg.
Avoid the direction of hack and slashing hordes of mobs, focus more on rpg tempo mixed with tactical positioning and use of impactful skills. Tone down speed and flashy effects, so that speed and effects dont suffer inflation. When you dash or use a flashy skill, it should feel like special and be noticeably "greater" in feel, when compared to basic weapon attack.
This doesnt close out the option for the other end of spectrum where you could build "fast flashy assassins" with speedier mobility, but they should be special players on the battlefield with special capabilities on mobility and speed. Typical warriors on plate and big weapons should be slow but steady and you dont want to get them near you.
Also one aspect of combat is the amount of enemies you typically engage. You should clarify the principles you try to steer towards. My preference would be to avoid the direction of action hack and slash rpgs, and try to capture feeling of traditional western rpgs.
Tldr:
-tone down mobcount, speed, mobility and anime style flashiness, hack and slash feel.
-more rpg feel and dangerous enemies, stagger animations for hits.
It's hard to say without playing the game but my big take away from watching the new combat preview was that I didn't think it looked like (and to quote myself a number of times today - but I like this phrase) "sonic the bloody hedgehog jumping around catching stars and mushrooms".
I've long not been a fan of action combat in MMOs. I come from Everquest and that is the combat style I enjoy - tab target. I grew up with that style and I enjoyed that style (well 'grew up' in a figurative turn as I was nearly 30 when I started). When I came to play the more action combat styled games I found I didn't last long. True, the inaningly dull quest-centric nature of games had started to grind on me more and more, but I didn't get the huge amount of fun from the combat I had in Everquest.
WOW is a midpoint for me. As above, the quest-centric style is probably what made me never surpass level 45 in that game. I did always like WOW's combat though and, good news, the combat I saw in the preview reminded me very much of combat in WOW. The player character wasn't jumping around (like that sonic fella) and the animations looked meaty and solid. Dodges looked like dodges rather than acrobatics.
Truly, the gameplay outside of combat is probably going to be the big thing for me in Ashes but in questing (inwhatever form it takes in Ashes) and progressing socially through the world is going to be more key for me. Combat has some leeway.
I also have to have some leeway. If MMOs are to move foreward the old style fans and the new style fans have to come together and find common ground. I have to learn to like a more action styled combat and the good news is I liked what I saw in the recent video.
The proof of the pudding will be in playing it - when Alpha 2 arrives - but good start.
I very much liked this stream however i felt the character had too much movement with the sword i do not know alot about development however Momentum is something to consider and how it interacts with heavier weapons turning on the spot with daggers makes sense but not mid swing with a giant sword or hammer ect ect liek was said all is subject to change great stream
In comparison with old Combat - Great Improvement.
Love this balance skale between Heavy and Light weapons and movement. Animation looks fantastic, maybe just a little tinny bit to flashy but still amazing.
Windmill while holding daggers, hmmmm looks little funny, maybe create some magic yellow light sword like with hammer spell? I just wonder how this animations will looks like with Bow or spell Book for example.
Finishing blows with mobs parts flying away was amazing. Death animations fantastic.
Hidden mobs creating sense of danger - great choice.
Big weapons leaving trace on ground also great, spells creating little dust cloud - noice touch.
Im happy with customisation options for dmg numers.
Overall Fantastic Job! Cant wait to test this in game.
Hey team, I made a thread last year regarding the combat I'd like to see here, and the types of people it would be affecting/ influencing/ drawing that got over 1000 views, that's pretty much summed up in the first post, but has great auxiliary info as well.
I would just like to say the latest updates are really MORE than serviceable as a first pass/ first look, and your guys approach has me inspired about what you'll further innovate/ create. I think you're doing great the way you're approaching it as described in the latest video, and just wanted to give commendation for the work being put in. It's looking to be competative, engaging, and satisfying. Keep up the good work!
Combat looks great! With everything that’s being said here, AoC is definitely heading in the right direction.
The only thing I really wanted to comment on was the skills between greatsword/daggers
I love that this game is going to be class oriented. Skills being locked behind weapons was something I never really enjoyed. Seeing that you can still use the hammer swing with the daggers equipped was good to see! Can’t wait see what kind of combinations I get to play with, and how my character is going to shape out!
The spin slash on the daggers seemed a little odd? Or clunky? The spin slash looked great with greatsword, but switching to the daggers it didn’t quite look right. Maybe I feel like the range should be shorter when equipped with daggers? Or it could just be that the animation needs a slight tweak.
Watching it again, the animation could use a slight adjustment with the daggers, I think he’s still using the greatsword animation when using that ability with twin daggers. Having separate animations for skills based on weapons equipped is the only feedback I really have. Also will there be jumping attacks!?
I can’t wait to see ranged combat and the movement options in this game. As well as how the monsters handle moving through the environment when you have so many options for escaping/kiting.
I love the direction for basic attacks, just hoping that future iterations of the animations will have more frames for a smoother feel; especially for slower weapons like the greatsword so it doesn't look choppy.
One concern I do have though is about weapons in general. It was stated that weapons would have no skills associated with them, so skills would only come from your archetypes. Is anyone worried that this might trivialize weapons completely for many classes?
For example, if you're playing some sort of mage that primarily deals damage using skills, or a healer or any class that doesn't need supplementary basic attacks in their rotation; would it matter at all what weapon I have equipped? Especially if I can craft whatever stats I want into any weapon, would it serve any purpose beyond just being a stat stick? IMO that kind of feels like a wasted opportunity.
If even one or two skills(optimally three) were added to each weapon type, it could create an entire tertiary class dynamic in addition to the numerous archetypes available which would make an already fantastic class system even more fun. In PvP, you could see at a glance which weapon each person is holding so it wouldn't add too much complexity when gauging opponents. And it could make it easier for players to have loadouts for various situations, as well as promoting the economy if each player needed to buy or craft and maintain multiple weapons preferred for each of those situations.
Thank you for reading this. I hope you consider my opinions.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
There is a Skill Tree called Weapon Skills, so...
I dunno what Steven meant when he said weapons would have no skills. @Vaknar
Definitely a promising update and I am personally happy with the direction taken so far when you compare to the previous showcase of combat.
Feedback:
The weight of the heavy weapon looks great when it comes to the windup of the attack, but the actual swing of the sword feels a little too quick. I think with a greatsword, you should see a bit more of the sword when you swing and not just a quick swipe after the windup. The overall timing of the basic greatsword attacks seemed solid and heavy, but I felt that the actual swing of the sword visually didn't match up to that timing very well. However, I loved the abilities that were shown off (hammer and whirlwind), those looked awesome.
Some additional feedback that seems shared across a good portion of the community is relating to the amount of visual effects when swinging both of the weapon types. It seems a little too arcade-like with the amount of color and blur with the basic swings. I'm worried it could take away from some of the combat immersion that comes with using bladed weapons, and leaving the more flashy visuals to the magic abilities and special attacks.
Another interesting comment I saw was that having a 1-2-3 style basic attack combo could end up being a little redundant and eventually become boring/repetitive if you're grinding mobs in the open world or just clearing them in a dungeon setting. Obviously we haven't seen how the abilities will play into the rotation of combat and how often we'll get a break between the basic attack combo, but I think that could be a great area to gather feedback from during the Alpha Two.
Great update as usual, and I'm looking forward to future combat showcases!
Everyone here at Intrepid Studios looks forward to reading all the feedback you have to share!
general feedback:
Alright so, I don't follow too closely so I don't know what way you decided to go at the end, but for me, it's still a big no-no for action combat style MMO, I personally very much enjoy tab-target style gaming (such as wow), which doesn't require 360hz monitor to be truly competitive at the end game. I'd love to see some action-type aspects, perhaps some huge cooldowns, etc., but certainly not everything, especially the basic attacks.
camera:
With that said I don't really like the fixed camera angle when playing 3rd person pov., I like to look around but still maintain combat, which action type won't ever allow. Example: I like to pick a target, do my keyboard performance and keep looking around to perhaps spot someone approaching and prepare for that, or blink a different direction than my character is facing
animation&sounds: (overall feeling)
Honestly, this looks overdone to me. From what you show in the video, it felt like an anime-type of console game, basic slashes look and sounded like the character is literally 'slashing' the air in half with his mighty powers without even doing anything (kinda god of war/shadow of Mordor/devil may cry vibes mixed together - overall very console gameplay feelings).
It looks cool but I can only imagine when there are more complex attacks introduced with abilities and more enemies, this would be an even bigger animation madness. Sometimes simple isn't that bad. Basic attacks should feel weak(that's why they are basic) and sound basic as well, I want to feel fun in combat mostly from abilities and my skill set, not just stimulate my brain with animations. Huge animation should be only with big-d*ck cooldown. (again example from wow: a fireblast shouldn't feel the same as combustion)
combat consistency:
If what was presented was combat from just a single class, it felt really inconsistent, because the preview character felt like an absolute different class when you just swap weapons. A warrior should remain a warrior even with just a knife or bare fists equipped, not suddenly start acting like a rogue/berserker.
floating text:
I'd take an example from wow addons and give players options to adjust it, but the default version you showed is good enough.
personal conclusion:
dev. direction is good but pls for god's sake, go tab-target with only some action aspects and lower the animation density and phasing. This really doesn't feel like something that would work in long term for me. For damage-wise, please make attacks rather single or aoe, basic attacks definitely shouldn't be aoe, just imagine you have someone in soft CC next to the person you attack.
Huge improvement and definite steps in the right direction. Without being able to feel it personally, my view is:
1. Tone down the speed of attacks by 10% minimum.
2. Increase the rootedness/weight on the 2h by 10% minimum.
As for everything else(blocking, footsteps, etc.), I assume that will be implemented later on.
There is a Skill Tree called Weapon Skills, so...
I dunno what Steven meant when he said weapons would have no skills. @Vaknar
I think he meant weapons bringing skills, basically being enchanted with skills.
Not a related game, but in Expeditions: Rome, each weapon generated with 3-5 random skills. Once you equipped the weapon you chose which skills from that weapon to put on your skill bar.
It seems to me that the weapons have too few movements. Daggers have only 3 of them. You will probably add more types of "Auto" attacks, but I said this just in case..
I was also confused by the animation of the skill (Warrior?) with equipped blades. It doesn't look natural...
To reply Steven's question:
I do like the direction of today's (11AM PT Thursday, June 30, 2022) update.
It is a positive change.
It is better from where it was.
TL;DR : These auto-attacks feel great!
However, when I hit or get hit; with/by small or big weapons/mobs it has to make more difference to feel better.
I should be afraid/punished being hit by the big rocks or blocked being surrounded by too many little ones.
I should be rewarded while taking more risk and succeeding.
Meh, I hope this is not the 100+s message with same comments/ideas.
/*Disclaimer
This message does not reflect how much I appreciated the work, the showcase, the speech and the steady awesome quality of what is delivered in social media, forum and livestream.
I could overflow this forum with enthusiasm for the project, admiration for the team and passion I do feel for the game right now for ... days.
I think however, it would be more valuable to point out instead everything that could become better from its current (amazing) state.
I know only a very little part of the combat system has been showcased (melee auto only), a lot is still to be developped and adjusted.
I might also have misunderstood some part or overlook some of the mechanics that might only be taken in account with the full list of skill is available (as for the player and the mobs).
Disclaimer */
Comments / things I'll consider as requiring improvements;
Risk/Reward, hit VS being hit:
- Block / Avoid or Dodge / Cancelling attack
Did not seem rewarding at all compared to bursting all in (regarding auto-attack or skill showcased or parry).
Especially demonstrating the UI for damage being shown the impact of being hit was almost null.
-> Being hit by one or 5+ monsters, little or big monsters, by light or heavy attack had made no difference (same little animation and sound except the little push with the rock thrown).
-> Being hit multiple times in a row did not increase the amount of damage taken, or the time required for movement or next attack as a recovery.
-> Being hit while dual wielding the big sword or the daggers, while doing a fast-paced light attack or heavy charged attack has not led to different result.
-> Even the special slow-heavy-telegraphed-rock-throwing-attack by the big rock monsters had almost identical response/consequences as the smallest little rock monster auto-attack.
-> Blocking / Avoiding or Dodging / Cancelling or Countering attack has not resulted in any benefit/buff/burst for the next attack ;
-> Comboing attack has not resulted in any benefit/buff/burst for the next attack;
Result>> Selected weapon for Auto-attack seems cosmetic; if there is any damage pros with one weapon the Risk/Reward aspect is too low to maintain balance and healthy diversity.
The auto-attack have to incorporate risk/reward logic to not be a “just spam me while better option are in cooldown” and nullify difficulty of previous content while you progress in the game and can kill all monsters with auto-attacks.
The overall feel of challenge/danger becomes null as soon as you know you have enough damage and HP to overcome your opponent.
You do not feel you need to kite mobs, use environment, mitigate damage but just focus on the more damage you can make through your kit and rotation.
It tends to favorize "meta" class and builds around AOE oriented gameplay over other gameplay types as being the obvious most efficient by far by design.
- Light / Heavy weapon spectrum,
Speed was mentioned and awesomely handled.
Comment regarding PVP and being able to avoid attacks/continue to fight despite your weapon being from one end or the other of the spectrum was great!
Topic overlooked however: Damage, range (for melee weapon), hitbox understanding
-> Impact on Damage (Inflicted and Taken) from the Chosen weapon is unclear, especially if it has no impact on the skills, or the stats, why wearing a shield if I can block the same with a dagger, can I backstab while dualwielding a giant sword?
-> Range, from the animation showcased seems to allow the dagger to strike as far (or almost) as the big sword
-> Hitbox principle is simply unclear, as the moveset and animation are different but all very wide and fast, there is no pro/cons that I could identify clearly
-> Aoe capabilities seemed identical from the two sides of the spectrum whatever the weapon chosen
Result>> Weapon difference and identity seems low, which might not be an issue at all especially if it concerns only auto-attack.
It has to be part of the class identity to make the difference and clear to the player to what extend playing to one end of the spectrum to the other affects his character building.
Way to improve suggestions;
Respecting the input VS consequences on yours and your opponent actions:
- Being slowed down / Interrupted / Stunned / Knocked down / Bleeded / Disarmed (temporarily) while hit by big mobs or big attacks or a lot of little attacks in a short timespan
- Being applied to both Players & Mobs, having impact in the decision making in combat (Punish and Reward accordingly)
Auto-attack VS other damage source balance (skills, combos, ...):
- Do not feel auto-attack should just be a filler but could synergize with the actual class kit/spells
- Has to be an overall balance, knowing that melee and caster logic might be a real challenge to adjust
- Do not be afraid to favorize, as the trinity tank/heal/dps is here, some archetypes towards what they are specialized to
[*] tank: block resulting in next attack being double damaged / stun / reduce enemy damage output
[*] healer: preventive heal if damage happens in the 2 next seconds provide with a shield or a damage buff / resource refill speed increase
[*] dps: combo or buff or cooldown reduction upon good animation cancel/parry/block/dodge resulting in a damage mitigation (for both casters and melee)
Class and Weapon/Armor type influence:
- I do not expect the giant sword to allow as many swings (without resting) as the light daggers would, and the damage output to be the same
- I do not expect a light-armored Priest to react the same way an all-plated Tank would while experiencing the same amount of damage
- I do not expect damage inflicted vs resource management having the same constraints between an Archer and a Mage
Conclusion:
These altogether are very hard to fit and balance; as long as the spirit of each weapon, class, armor type is coherent with the combat system, this is fine.
All compromise that leaves to realistic expectation from a bigger thing hitting harder has the adequate consequence on players, mobs and the environment.
If only one aspect should be kept, it is the risk/reward aspect of the combat system.
Without it, no strategy/difficulty leverage could be kept after the player are stuffed/leveled to max and will be able to ignore all mechanics.
I think for a PvP combat based MMO this really nails the need for "impact" between agency. Impact that causes a stagger IS crown control. I don't see how you can create an animation for impact without causing a delay in agency. How would you reconcile getting hit 10 times with 10 impact animations where you also have animations for your attacks.
That said, here's my response to each question.
1. The aspects of basic attacks are either primarily the main damage source and skills are supplemental, or basic attacks are supplemental and skills are primarily the main source of damage. Personally, I prefer basic attacks being the main damage source with skills being supplemental. I think the basic attacks combo shown in the video is engaging enough for that.
2. I didn't see any jump attack animations. A roll animation with an attack at the end would be cool.
3. Other games with really good combat animations tend to be single player games. This relates heavily with my initial response. I absolutely loved the combat from Elden Ring, but it's single player where multiplayer CC doesn't exist. God of War is another example.
4. I'm excited to see the ranged combat examples. I'm also concerned that ranged combat is just really hard to make the animations seem exciting compared to melee.
What was showcased looked really good. Hard to give definitive feedback until I play it though, but lookin good.
These are my concerns:
Dealbreaker (I would actually quit the game, because I quit ESO over it)
- Animation canceling as seen in ESO, where cancelling animations gives a dps boost over time because you're cutting off animations for skills by weaving in basic attacks. Steven's answer in stream was unclear to me when he was asked about animation cancelling. I'm not talking about animation cancelling in general, only where it applies to artificially increasing dps. The effect (damage) of an ability should go off at the end of it's animation, not the beginning.
Not dealbreakers (but don't want to see these in the game either)
- Spam left click meta
- Aoe meta where nearly everything is an aoe/cleave and it is the most optimal way of playing
- Dodge spam meta
Oh yeah and I was a big fan of the change in direction from root motion combat to split body. I hope that stays the case. I'm on board with what Steven has described so far, of some minor root motion being applied to certain movements/abilities, but not just heavy root motion on everything by default.
Reveal and overall direction definitely surprised some people but mostly in a positive way.
There is already a lot of feedback so I will try to be brief as there already are suggestions and polish that could be applied.
- Personally I liked the swing speed of the greatsword however some of my friends suggested it could be slower adding it more weight.
- Lack of enemy feedback (stagger from attacks) sometimes makes attacks seem less impactful even though the character animation itself seems pretty weighty.
- I personally think that upper body should never be static unless there is a good reason for it. This was especially visible with daggers during the attack that ended auto-attack loop, having a character pose with daggers on each side while bottom half was moving. This causes animations to feel slightly choppy IMO and lacking proper flow and grace one could attribute to a light weapon such as daggers.
- Ground decal from Greatsword attacks is a great addition, something that not many games bother with but it makes a difference. I would be wary of how this applies to uneven surface like when standing on a rock while swinging a weapon. Nobody wants a sword crater floating in the air ruining their immersion (Have seen this in other games that lacked proper polish).
- Sometimes during run + attack split body was being contorted in weird ways. While having free agency over movement during combat is very important it would be nice not to suffer a twisting spine while it's happening .
- Having movement slowed at the specific points of attacks is a very good idea and I support it.
Some polish is required IMO but this is a very good starting point for AoC combat, it shows a lot of promise for the future of this game.
First I want to say I knowledged some of the things i will point out in that feedback are in under development and aren't finished and will improve over time. I love the stuff you are doing. I am just a bit obsessed with details.
Basic Attack Effects
That yellow trail feels really unnecessary and too much only for ba in a game have that kind of an atmosphere. A slight windy effect would be more suitable.
The motion of The Body and Weapons
About weapons; the way attack animations start and finish is a bit strange. I agree u can kinda feel the weight of the sword but it s just heavy at the beginning, then he swings the sword with an incredible speed, and the animation stops immediately. I just think the swing should be a bit slower than that. And things like the time between the first and second animation should be a few split seconds more just like the time between the second and third. I understand 3rd attack is a "heavier" attack with more damage output but it's not a short sword that u can swing freely. Every attack should feel like the third attack for a better experience while using heavy weapons like a longsword.
About body; Personally, I prefer root motion cuz it's more accurate and feels physically realistic so it increases the overall quality of the animations IMO but seems like u already decided. Other than that I really liked something that u are trying to do something almost no MMOs trying to do and that s the footwork. I hate looking like I'm sliding on the ground while attacking and moving at the same time. It's something nothing more than an "awkward" animation design. As far as I can see there are still many instances of that in the video but it seemed like feet trying to follow the body and the attack animation most of the time. So if it's something u want to improve and deliver I am so glad. Other than that everything seems accurate and cool.
Repetetive Animations/Combos
It is very important that basic attacks don't feel repetitive and boring like the ones in traditional MMOs that u do, hear and see that one specific basic attack animation over and over again. I think there are two options to choose to solve this;
1. Different animations with directional keys are one way to achieve this. U said we won't do full-action combat so I am not sure if it's the way u would choose because I don'T know how fast or dynamic the combat will be but that's the one I prefer.
As an example; You are attacking mobs while moving left or right at the same time and the way the character attack changes along with body movement in that direction and instead of doing the animation in this video while u are in basically moving animation it will do completely different animation. So also this one will be another way to move in combat other than dash/roll. I put an attachment for an example from especially BDO cuz objectively it has the best combat. Of course, it s just an example to visualize the thing I am saying.
2. Instead of putting one specific combo animation that players will do over and over again there should be different attack patterns or directions and the order of their appearance will be randomly generated on the condition that they won't repeat.
Actually, another solution to this is just keeping it basic asap so it won't feel like u are actually repeating something it will just feel like u are "basically" basic attacking. I rather do two or three basic swings that make sense when u repeat than do the same combo animation.
Also, it's not about the basic attack and I know it wasn't something u are trying to show off but I wanted to give my feedback already;
Feeling-of-Hit
I think if a game lacks that feeling it's probably about responsivity. Of course, sounds have a huge role in that but also the thing u hit should respond. Unfortunately, even in 2022, the only MMO that does that kinda thing is BDO. And since AoC aspires to be a unique MMO with many aspects this one should be included in AoC too. Mobs' body parts must respond to attacks. Maybe something like a little tremble depends on the way it got hit with an animation delay by stopping them just for a "split second". OR since u guys really good at that, u could do it with a completely different system that would make it more accurate. But I understand it would take so many resources, the first one would do it too .
Thanks for the hard work and the hope u are trying to give after no one did for so many years. Still keeping the expectations low cuz of PTSD we got from many ones but I also believe in you in a way I never did before.
I am liking the weapon trail effects. It is not super flamboyant nor just a simple semi-transparent monocoloured arc, and there is some variation between the different attacks as well which is welcome.
The ground decals is a great little touch and just adds to the immersion, great job.
The blending between upper and lower body as the attacks are being thrown out is well done I think, still requires some polish but the overall seems solid.
The dagger sense of speed is great.
The damage numbers are looking great, a lot better than I feel like most modern MMO's or even games in general have been doing it.
What I dislike:
The X-slash of the daggers. Very much personal opinion. I don't have anything against that sort of attack, but I do think it starts looking silly and childish when done all the time like in a basic weapon attack. Would much rather see this sort of attack animation used for something higher impact where you can put in more buildup and heavier feel (kind of a heavy attack in the middle of light ones atm).
The greatsword still felt a bit too "floaty" or lacking in "impact". However you want to say it. Check suggestions/wishlist below for what I think could improve that.
Suggestions/Wishlist:
Hitstop - Briefly freezing the animation at the point of impact. This can add a lot to the feeling of impact and heaviness of an attack, used a lot in stuff like fighting games. I think adding this (or increasing it if it already is there, though I had a hard time seeing it if it was) to attacks, especially to the big weapon ones would help the feel and visual.
Some examples of this - Monster Hunter, Guilty Gear (or pretty much any ArcSys figher), Neir: Automata, Hollow Knight
I think Intrepid could be still a bit more brave with root motion and locking the player a little, especially with the certain attacks of the two-hander such as the overhead, flipping mid swing on that looks a bit wonky. Having some basic attacks lock you in more than others is not a bad idea imo and adds to the heaviness once again for bigger weapons.
Slowing down the basic attacks. The daggers are pretty fine but I wouldn't mind seeing both those and the greatsword (and all weapons) have a slower "swing timer" so to say. Make each hit do more damage but have more time between the attacks, not making the attack animation itself slower. Swinging as fast as the video I think adds to the "floatyness" and increasing time between attack could lessen this without really changing too much in terms of character control or other design.
Mechanically different design. I really want my weapons to feel different when I play with them, and not just in that they determine what skills I have access too, I want the fact I am playing with one weapon over another to make me play differently by just how the weapons attacks.
As an example, because it is easy to make clear, physical ranged weapons.
- Shortbow: Shooting and reloading while moving.
- Longbow: Shooting still and reloading while moving.
- Crossbow: Shooting while moving and reloading while still.
- Musket: Shooting and reloading while still.
This I think makes clear what I mean. Some other would maybe be spears being extremely linear with its attacks, or two-handed hammers can't cancel their attacks, or axes have a sweet spot range for their damage. Please do not be shy with this stuff, go wild and tone it back later if you need to.
Comments
* Combat (or at least the basic combo) seems a bit too fast paced for both light and heavy weapons. I'd like to see both top and bottom boundary moved slightly towards slower side in general.
* Daggers seem like they could be a bit more fluid. I can't really put my finger on it but there is something jarring about the combat. Maybe slower base combo with a few more animation frames to tie in end and beginning of attack chain could solve that?
* Smashing ground is something you'd generally want to avoid with sharp weapons, it looks cool but feels wrong. Some abilities can hit the ground: overhead swing actually looks and feels right. Maybe two handed swords should actually be a medium weapon, or there should be two categories of large swords (Greatsword and Longsword, for example, where greatswords are a bit closer to a hammer than sword)? Or maybe there can be a stat (strength) defining threshold for the largest weapons which will determine if your character is thrown around by the weight of the weapon like we were shown instead of them properly wielding the object (souls-like games)?
* We have not yet been shown hammers, but I would imagine hammers actually define the slowest and weightiest combat speed with least player agency; slow attacks that come often to a full stop.
Ya bdo is wack with TTK. Got to the point people just baited grab and ran away until they got it for the cc to one shot or one combo.
Granted I do hope there is some form of combos in this game, maybe more limited to one hard cc and one stiffen and push back. Could even mix up effects like push back is affective against active guard and causes them to be unable to active guard for a short duration or something.
The attack animations seem visually accelerated/unnatural personally speaking (mostly the daggers) but I'm not bothered by it in terms of game play.
Wide range AOE attacks with daggers seems visually weird but also not bothered by it.
Love the movement, weighted feel, sound effects and animations. Keep up the good work!
Concerns i would like to raise out are the melee basic combat tempo itself. You should increase the spectrum of speed, making heavy weapons wayyyyy slower. It had a tekken/anime/hack&slash like feeling more than a rpg.
Avoid the direction of hack and slashing hordes of mobs, focus more on rpg tempo mixed with tactical positioning and use of impactful skills. Tone down speed and flashy effects, so that speed and effects dont suffer inflation. When you dash or use a flashy skill, it should feel like special and be noticeably "greater" in feel, when compared to basic weapon attack.
This doesnt close out the option for the other end of spectrum where you could build "fast flashy assassins" with speedier mobility, but they should be special players on the battlefield with special capabilities on mobility and speed. Typical warriors on plate and big weapons should be slow but steady and you dont want to get them near you.
Also one aspect of combat is the amount of enemies you typically engage. You should clarify the principles you try to steer towards. My preference would be to avoid the direction of action hack and slash rpgs, and try to capture feeling of traditional western rpgs.
Tldr:
-tone down mobcount, speed, mobility and anime style flashiness, hack and slash feel.
-more rpg feel and dangerous enemies, stagger animations for hits.
I've long not been a fan of action combat in MMOs. I come from Everquest and that is the combat style I enjoy - tab target. I grew up with that style and I enjoyed that style (well 'grew up' in a figurative turn as I was nearly 30 when I started). When I came to play the more action combat styled games I found I didn't last long. True, the inaningly dull quest-centric nature of games had started to grind on me more and more, but I didn't get the huge amount of fun from the combat I had in Everquest.
WOW is a midpoint for me. As above, the quest-centric style is probably what made me never surpass level 45 in that game. I did always like WOW's combat though and, good news, the combat I saw in the preview reminded me very much of combat in WOW. The player character wasn't jumping around (like that sonic fella) and the animations looked meaty and solid. Dodges looked like dodges rather than acrobatics.
Truly, the gameplay outside of combat is probably going to be the big thing for me in Ashes but in questing (inwhatever form it takes in Ashes) and progressing socially through the world is going to be more key for me. Combat has some leeway.
I also have to have some leeway. If MMOs are to move foreward the old style fans and the new style fans have to come together and find common ground. I have to learn to like a more action styled combat and the good news is I liked what I saw in the recent video.
The proof of the pudding will be in playing it - when Alpha 2 arrives - but good start.
Love this balance skale between Heavy and Light weapons and movement. Animation looks fantastic, maybe just a little tinny bit to flashy but still amazing.
Windmill while holding daggers, hmmmm looks little funny, maybe create some magic yellow light sword like with hammer spell? I just wonder how this animations will looks like with Bow or spell Book for example.
Finishing blows with mobs parts flying away was amazing. Death animations fantastic.
Hidden mobs creating sense of danger - great choice.
Big weapons leaving trace on ground also great, spells creating little dust cloud - noice touch.
Im happy with customisation options for dmg numers.
Overall Fantastic Job! Cant wait to test this in game.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/51178/combat-target-audience#latest
I would just like to say the latest updates are really MORE than serviceable as a first pass/ first look, and your guys approach has me inspired about what you'll further innovate/ create. I think you're doing great the way you're approaching it as described in the latest video, and just wanted to give commendation for the work being put in. It's looking to be competative, engaging, and satisfying. Keep up the good work!
Love the ground scars
The only thing I really wanted to comment on was the skills between greatsword/daggers
I love that this game is going to be class oriented. Skills being locked behind weapons was something I never really enjoyed. Seeing that you can still use the hammer swing with the daggers equipped was good to see! Can’t wait see what kind of combinations I get to play with, and how my character is going to shape out!
The spin slash on the daggers seemed a little odd? Or clunky? The spin slash looked great with greatsword, but switching to the daggers it didn’t quite look right. Maybe I feel like the range should be shorter when equipped with daggers? Or it could just be that the animation needs a slight tweak.
Watching it again, the animation could use a slight adjustment with the daggers, I think he’s still using the greatsword animation when using that ability with twin daggers. Having separate animations for skills based on weapons equipped is the only feedback I really have. Also will there be jumping attacks!?
I can’t wait to see ranged combat and the movement options in this game. As well as how the monsters handle moving through the environment when you have so many options for escaping/kiting.
Great work intrepid!
Concerns:
On the point of weapon effects: Does each melee weapon have a different colored effect? The main color for the sword was gold; gray for the dagger.
Does this indicate a different type of damage? I.E., slashing vs piercing?
Or is it to simply give a little more character to each weapon?
One concern I do have though is about weapons in general. It was stated that weapons would have no skills associated with them, so skills would only come from your archetypes. Is anyone worried that this might trivialize weapons completely for many classes?
For example, if you're playing some sort of mage that primarily deals damage using skills, or a healer or any class that doesn't need supplementary basic attacks in their rotation; would it matter at all what weapon I have equipped? Especially if I can craft whatever stats I want into any weapon, would it serve any purpose beyond just being a stat stick? IMO that kind of feels like a wasted opportunity.
If even one or two skills(optimally three) were added to each weapon type, it could create an entire tertiary class dynamic in addition to the numerous archetypes available which would make an already fantastic class system even more fun. In PvP, you could see at a glance which weapon each person is holding so it wouldn't add too much complexity when gauging opponents. And it could make it easier for players to have loadouts for various situations, as well as promoting the economy if each player needed to buy or craft and maintain multiple weapons preferred for each of those situations.
Thank you for reading this. I hope you consider my opinions.
I dunno what Steven meant when he said weapons would have no skills.
@Vaknar
Feedback:
The weight of the heavy weapon looks great when it comes to the windup of the attack, but the actual swing of the sword feels a little too quick. I think with a greatsword, you should see a bit more of the sword when you swing and not just a quick swipe after the windup. The overall timing of the basic greatsword attacks seemed solid and heavy, but I felt that the actual swing of the sword visually didn't match up to that timing very well. However, I loved the abilities that were shown off (hammer and whirlwind), those looked awesome.
Some additional feedback that seems shared across a good portion of the community is relating to the amount of visual effects when swinging both of the weapon types. It seems a little too arcade-like with the amount of color and blur with the basic swings. I'm worried it could take away from some of the combat immersion that comes with using bladed weapons, and leaving the more flashy visuals to the magic abilities and special attacks.
Another interesting comment I saw was that having a 1-2-3 style basic attack combo could end up being a little redundant and eventually become boring/repetitive if you're grinding mobs in the open world or just clearing them in a dungeon setting. Obviously we haven't seen how the abilities will play into the rotation of combat and how often we'll get a break between the basic attack combo, but I think that could be a great area to gather feedback from during the Alpha Two.
Great update as usual, and I'm looking forward to future combat showcases!
general feedback:
Alright so, I don't follow too closely so I don't know what way you decided to go at the end, but for me, it's still a big no-no for action combat style MMO, I personally very much enjoy tab-target style gaming (such as wow), which doesn't require 360hz monitor to be truly competitive at the end game. I'd love to see some action-type aspects, perhaps some huge cooldowns, etc., but certainly not everything, especially the basic attacks.
camera:
With that said I don't really like the fixed camera angle when playing 3rd person pov., I like to look around but still maintain combat, which action type won't ever allow. Example: I like to pick a target, do my keyboard performance and keep looking around to perhaps spot someone approaching and prepare for that, or blink a different direction than my character is facing
animation&sounds: (overall feeling)
Honestly, this looks overdone to me. From what you show in the video, it felt like an anime-type of console game, basic slashes look and sounded like the character is literally 'slashing' the air in half with his mighty powers without even doing anything (kinda god of war/shadow of Mordor/devil may cry vibes mixed together - overall very console gameplay feelings).
It looks cool but I can only imagine when there are more complex attacks introduced with abilities and more enemies, this would be an even bigger animation madness. Sometimes simple isn't that bad. Basic attacks should feel weak(that's why they are basic) and sound basic as well, I want to feel fun in combat mostly from abilities and my skill set, not just stimulate my brain with animations. Huge animation should be only with big-d*ck cooldown. (again example from wow: a fireblast shouldn't feel the same as combustion)
combat consistency:
If what was presented was combat from just a single class, it felt really inconsistent, because the preview character felt like an absolute different class when you just swap weapons. A warrior should remain a warrior even with just a knife or bare fists equipped, not suddenly start acting like a rogue/berserker.
floating text:
I'd take an example from wow addons and give players options to adjust it, but the default version you showed is good enough.
personal conclusion:
dev. direction is good but pls for god's sake, go tab-target with only some action aspects and lower the animation density and phasing. This really doesn't feel like something that would work in long term for me. For damage-wise, please make attacks rather single or aoe, basic attacks definitely shouldn't be aoe, just imagine you have someone in soft CC next to the person you attack.
1. Tone down the speed of attacks by 10% minimum.
2. Increase the rootedness/weight on the 2h by 10% minimum.
As for everything else(blocking, footsteps, etc.), I assume that will be implemented later on.
Great job on combat improvements. Keep it up!
I think he meant weapons bringing skills, basically being enchanted with skills.
Not a related game, but in Expeditions: Rome, each weapon generated with 3-5 random skills. Once you equipped the weapon you chose which skills from that weapon to put on your skill bar.
I was also confused by the animation of the skill (Warrior?) with equipped blades. It doesn't look natural...
To reply Steven's question:
I do like the direction of today's (11AM PT Thursday, June 30, 2022) update.
It is a positive change.
It is better from where it was.
TL;DR : These auto-attacks feel great!
However, when I hit or get hit; with/by small or big weapons/mobs it has to make more difference to feel better.
I should be afraid/punished being hit by the big rocks or blocked being surrounded by too many little ones.
I should be rewarded while taking more risk and succeeding.
Meh, I hope this is not the 100+s message with same comments/ideas.
/*Disclaimer
This message does not reflect how much I appreciated the work, the showcase, the speech and the steady awesome quality of what is delivered in social media, forum and livestream.
I could overflow this forum with enthusiasm for the project, admiration for the team and passion I do feel for the game right now for ... days.
I think however, it would be more valuable to point out instead everything that could become better from its current (amazing) state.
I know only a very little part of the combat system has been showcased (melee auto only), a lot is still to be developped and adjusted.
I might also have misunderstood some part or overlook some of the mechanics that might only be taken in account with the full list of skill is available (as for the player and the mobs).
Disclaimer */
Comments / things I'll consider as requiring improvements;
Risk/Reward, hit VS being hit:
- Block / Avoid or Dodge / Cancelling attack
Did not seem rewarding at all compared to bursting all in (regarding auto-attack or skill showcased or parry).
Especially demonstrating the UI for damage being shown the impact of being hit was almost null.
-> Being hit by one or 5+ monsters, little or big monsters, by light or heavy attack had made no difference (same little animation and sound except the little push with the rock thrown).
-> Being hit multiple times in a row did not increase the amount of damage taken, or the time required for movement or next attack as a recovery.
-> Being hit while dual wielding the big sword or the daggers, while doing a fast-paced light attack or heavy charged attack has not led to different result.
-> Even the special slow-heavy-telegraphed-rock-throwing-attack by the big rock monsters had almost identical response/consequences as the smallest little rock monster auto-attack.
-> Blocking / Avoiding or Dodging / Cancelling or Countering attack has not resulted in any benefit/buff/burst for the next attack ;
-> Comboing attack has not resulted in any benefit/buff/burst for the next attack;
Result>> Selected weapon for Auto-attack seems cosmetic; if there is any damage pros with one weapon the Risk/Reward aspect is too low to maintain balance and healthy diversity.
The auto-attack have to incorporate risk/reward logic to not be a “just spam me while better option are in cooldown” and nullify difficulty of previous content while you progress in the game and can kill all monsters with auto-attacks.
The overall feel of challenge/danger becomes null as soon as you know you have enough damage and HP to overcome your opponent.
You do not feel you need to kite mobs, use environment, mitigate damage but just focus on the more damage you can make through your kit and rotation.
It tends to favorize "meta" class and builds around AOE oriented gameplay over other gameplay types as being the obvious most efficient by far by design.
- Light / Heavy weapon spectrum,
Speed was mentioned and awesomely handled.
Comment regarding PVP and being able to avoid attacks/continue to fight despite your weapon being from one end or the other of the spectrum was great!
Topic overlooked however: Damage, range (for melee weapon), hitbox understanding
-> Impact on Damage (Inflicted and Taken) from the Chosen weapon is unclear, especially if it has no impact on the skills, or the stats, why wearing a shield if I can block the same with a dagger, can I backstab while dualwielding a giant sword?
-> Range, from the animation showcased seems to allow the dagger to strike as far (or almost) as the big sword
-> Hitbox principle is simply unclear, as the moveset and animation are different but all very wide and fast, there is no pro/cons that I could identify clearly
-> Aoe capabilities seemed identical from the two sides of the spectrum whatever the weapon chosen
Result>> Weapon difference and identity seems low, which might not be an issue at all especially if it concerns only auto-attack.
It has to be part of the class identity to make the difference and clear to the player to what extend playing to one end of the spectrum to the other affects his character building.
Way to improve suggestions;
Respecting the input VS consequences on yours and your opponent actions:
- Being slowed down / Interrupted / Stunned / Knocked down / Bleeded / Disarmed (temporarily) while hit by big mobs or big attacks or a lot of little attacks in a short timespan
- Being applied to both Players & Mobs, having impact in the decision making in combat (Punish and Reward accordingly)
Auto-attack VS other damage source balance (skills, combos, ...):
- Do not feel auto-attack should just be a filler but could synergize with the actual class kit/spells
- Has to be an overall balance, knowing that melee and caster logic might be a real challenge to adjust
- Do not be afraid to favorize, as the trinity tank/heal/dps is here, some archetypes towards what they are specialized to
[*] tank: block resulting in next attack being double damaged / stun / reduce enemy damage output
[*] healer: preventive heal if damage happens in the 2 next seconds provide with a shield or a damage buff / resource refill speed increase
[*] dps: combo or buff or cooldown reduction upon good animation cancel/parry/block/dodge resulting in a damage mitigation (for both casters and melee)
Class and Weapon/Armor type influence:
- I do not expect the giant sword to allow as many swings (without resting) as the light daggers would, and the damage output to be the same
- I do not expect a light-armored Priest to react the same way an all-plated Tank would while experiencing the same amount of damage
- I do not expect damage inflicted vs resource management having the same constraints between an Archer and a Mage
Conclusion:
These altogether are very hard to fit and balance; as long as the spirit of each weapon, class, armor type is coherent with the combat system, this is fine.
All compromise that leaves to realistic expectation from a bigger thing hitting harder has the adequate consequence on players, mobs and the environment.
If only one aspect should be kept, it is the risk/reward aspect of the combat system.
Without it, no strategy/difficulty leverage could be kept after the player are stuffed/leveled to max and will be able to ignore all mechanics.
That said, here's my response to each question.
1. The aspects of basic attacks are either primarily the main damage source and skills are supplemental, or basic attacks are supplemental and skills are primarily the main source of damage. Personally, I prefer basic attacks being the main damage source with skills being supplemental. I think the basic attacks combo shown in the video is engaging enough for that.
2. I didn't see any jump attack animations. A roll animation with an attack at the end would be cool.
3. Other games with really good combat animations tend to be single player games. This relates heavily with my initial response. I absolutely loved the combat from Elden Ring, but it's single player where multiplayer CC doesn't exist. God of War is another example.
4. I'm excited to see the ranged combat examples. I'm also concerned that ranged combat is just really hard to make the animations seem exciting compared to melee.
These are good points and I second them.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Yhr9WpjaDzw
These are my concerns:
Dealbreaker (I would actually quit the game, because I quit ESO over it)
- Animation canceling as seen in ESO, where cancelling animations gives a dps boost over time because you're cutting off animations for skills by weaving in basic attacks. Steven's answer in stream was unclear to me when he was asked about animation cancelling. I'm not talking about animation cancelling in general, only where it applies to artificially increasing dps. The effect (damage) of an ability should go off at the end of it's animation, not the beginning.
Not dealbreakers (but don't want to see these in the game either)
- Spam left click meta
- Aoe meta where nearly everything is an aoe/cleave and it is the most optimal way of playing
- Dodge spam meta
Oh yeah and I was a big fan of the change in direction from root motion combat to split body. I hope that stays the case. I'm on board with what Steven has described so far, of some minor root motion being applied to certain movements/abilities, but not just heavy root motion on everything by default.
There is already a lot of feedback so I will try to be brief as there already are suggestions and polish that could be applied.
- Personally I liked the swing speed of the greatsword however some of my friends suggested it could be slower adding it more weight.
- Lack of enemy feedback (stagger from attacks) sometimes makes attacks seem less impactful even though the character animation itself seems pretty weighty.
- I personally think that upper body should never be static unless there is a good reason for it. This was especially visible with daggers during the attack that ended auto-attack loop, having a character pose with daggers on each side while bottom half was moving. This causes animations to feel slightly choppy IMO and lacking proper flow and grace one could attribute to a light weapon such as daggers.
- Ground decal from Greatsword attacks is a great addition, something that not many games bother with but it makes a difference. I would be wary of how this applies to uneven surface like when standing on a rock while swinging a weapon. Nobody wants a sword crater floating in the air ruining their immersion (Have seen this in other games that lacked proper polish).
- Sometimes during run + attack split body was being contorted in weird ways. While having free agency over movement during combat is very important it would be nice not to suffer a twisting spine while it's happening
- Having movement slowed at the specific points of attacks is a very good idea and I support it.
Some polish is required IMO but this is a very good starting point for AoC combat, it shows a lot of promise for the future of this game.
Basic Attack Effects
That yellow trail feels really unnecessary and too much only for ba in a game have that kind of an atmosphere. A slight windy effect would be more suitable.
The motion of The Body and Weapons
About weapons; the way attack animations start and finish is a bit strange. I agree u can kinda feel the weight of the sword but it s just heavy at the beginning, then he swings the sword with an incredible speed, and the animation stops immediately. I just think the swing should be a bit slower than that. And things like the time between the first and second animation should be a few split seconds more just like the time between the second and third. I understand 3rd attack is a "heavier" attack with more damage output but it's not a short sword that u can swing freely. Every attack should feel like the third attack for a better experience while using heavy weapons like a longsword.
About body; Personally, I prefer root motion cuz it's more accurate and feels physically realistic so it increases the overall quality of the animations IMO but seems like u already decided. Other than that I really liked something that u are trying to do something almost no MMOs trying to do and that s the footwork. I hate looking like I'm sliding on the ground while attacking and moving at the same time. It's something nothing more than an "awkward" animation design. As far as I can see there are still many instances of that in the video but it seemed like feet trying to follow the body and the attack animation most of the time. So if it's something u want to improve and deliver I am so glad. Other than that everything seems accurate and cool.
Repetetive Animations/Combos
It is very important that basic attacks don't feel repetitive and boring like the ones in traditional MMOs that u do, hear and see that one specific basic attack animation over and over again. I think there are two options to choose to solve this;
1. Different animations with directional keys are one way to achieve this. U said we won't do full-action combat so I am not sure if it's the way u would choose because I don'T know how fast or dynamic the combat will be but that's the one I prefer.
As an example; You are attacking mobs while moving left or right at the same time and the way the character attack changes along with body movement in that direction and instead of doing the animation in this video while u are in basically moving animation it will do completely different animation. So also this one will be another way to move in combat other than dash/roll. I put an attachment for an example from especially BDO cuz objectively it has the best combat. Of course, it s just an example to visualize the thing I am saying.
2. Instead of putting one specific combo animation that players will do over and over again there should be different attack patterns or directions and the order of their appearance will be randomly generated on the condition that they won't repeat.
Actually, another solution to this is just keeping it basic asap so it won't feel like u are actually repeating something it will just feel like u are "basically" basic attacking. I rather do two or three basic swings that make sense when u repeat than do the same combo animation.
Also, it's not about the basic attack and I know it wasn't something u are trying to show off but I wanted to give my feedback already;
Feeling-of-Hit
I think if a game lacks that feeling it's probably about responsivity. Of course, sounds have a huge role in that but also the thing u hit should respond. Unfortunately, even in 2022, the only MMO that does that kinda thing is BDO. And since AoC aspires to be a unique MMO with many aspects this one should be included in AoC too. Mobs' body parts must respond to attacks. Maybe something like a little tremble depends on the way it got hit with an animation delay by stopping them just for a "split second". OR since u guys really good at that, u could do it with a completely different system that would make it more accurate. But I understand it would take so many resources, the first one would do it too
Thanks for the hard work and the hope u are trying to give after no one did for so many years. Still keeping the expectations low cuz of PTSD we got from many ones
I am liking the weapon trail effects. It is not super flamboyant nor just a simple semi-transparent monocoloured arc, and there is some variation between the different attacks as well which is welcome.
The ground decals is a great little touch and just adds to the immersion, great job.
The blending between upper and lower body as the attacks are being thrown out is well done I think, still requires some polish but the overall seems solid.
The dagger sense of speed is great.
The damage numbers are looking great, a lot better than I feel like most modern MMO's or even games in general have been doing it.
What I dislike:
The X-slash of the daggers. Very much personal opinion. I don't have anything against that sort of attack, but I do think it starts looking silly and childish when done all the time like in a basic weapon attack. Would much rather see this sort of attack animation used for something higher impact where you can put in more buildup and heavier feel (kind of a heavy attack in the middle of light ones atm).
The greatsword still felt a bit too "floaty" or lacking in "impact". However you want to say it. Check suggestions/wishlist below for what I think could improve that.
Suggestions/Wishlist:
Hitstop - Briefly freezing the animation at the point of impact. This can add a lot to the feeling of impact and heaviness of an attack, used a lot in stuff like fighting games. I think adding this (or increasing it if it already is there, though I had a hard time seeing it if it was) to attacks, especially to the big weapon ones would help the feel and visual.
Some examples of this - Monster Hunter, Guilty Gear (or pretty much any ArcSys figher), Neir: Automata, Hollow Knight
I think Intrepid could be still a bit more brave with root motion and locking the player a little, especially with the certain attacks of the two-hander such as the overhead, flipping mid swing on that looks a bit wonky. Having some basic attacks lock you in more than others is not a bad idea imo and adds to the heaviness once again for bigger weapons.
Slowing down the basic attacks. The daggers are pretty fine but I wouldn't mind seeing both those and the greatsword (and all weapons) have a slower "swing timer" so to say. Make each hit do more damage but have more time between the attacks, not making the attack animation itself slower. Swinging as fast as the video I think adds to the "floatyness" and increasing time between attack could lessen this without really changing too much in terms of character control or other design.
Mechanically different design. I really want my weapons to feel different when I play with them, and not just in that they determine what skills I have access too, I want the fact I am playing with one weapon over another to make me play differently by just how the weapons attacks.
As an example, because it is easy to make clear, physical ranged weapons.
This I think makes clear what I mean. Some other would maybe be spears being extremely linear with its attacks, or two-handed hammers can't cancel their attacks, or axes have a sweet spot range for their damage. Please do not be shy with this stuff, go wild and tone it back later if you need to.