Only thing that worried me about the combat showcase was how you dodged away from an enemy and they still got a hit on you showing the dmg numbers while you were too far away from being hit, so this will need to be fixed ofc enemies should not be able to land a hit on you if you are too far away on moment of the hit.
Not rly sure about colored animation for the basic attack. Arrows gonna be star-wars red blaster lines?) I believe basic attacks should be more natural( daggers are much better from the color perspective). I I’m not sure about the dagger animation speed it looks chaotic for me. But any was Amauri good job. Thank you.
I found the attack speed of the great sword today (30/06/2022) to be lower compared to alpha1 , the animation of splitting the ground causes a delay in the fluidity of the basic attack, thus making it seem to slow down at the end of the sequence of blows basics, I think it doesn't need realism in a fantasy mmorpg, that simulate fatigue at the end of a blow execution, one thing I hope is freedom to customize the character's stats, because not being able to distribute my stats manually is very irritating and it's disheartening to be held hostage by random status of equipment (armors, accessories, etc.), however intrepid is to be congratulated for the development.
The lighting and weather effects are incredible but the grass/foliage is nowhere near that level of quality. Everything is so flat and lacks dimensionality. I specifically remember being disappointed by the 2D flowers in the Tropical Biome video.
I think alot of players have stated that before aswell
The ground tends to kinds look like a flat "floor" with sprites placed ontop of the floor.
Im not a video game designer so i have no idea if its really hard to make the ground actually look like ground or not since it looks like that in most games.
Tab combat historically fares better under the lag conditions of heavily loaded servers and client-distance induced lag. It remains to be seen whether the Action combat seen in June 2022 livestream will perform adequately with 10k concurrent players in a densely populated game area.
With that proviso, the Action combat demo looked good.
I like the idea that larger weapons have a degree of movement restriction during use, so long as you are sacrificing movement flexibility for a tangible benefit such as increased DPS or increased damage mitigation. I would dislike a clear DPS advantage being given to smaller weapons, either directly or due to a higher attack rate increasing the odds of proc-ing an additional effect.
Weapon selection should come down to play balance, situation requirements and personal preference.
The backwards dodge was okay, more realistic than VLDL's lampooning of "Rolly-poly". I noted that it could become quite silly unless there is some kind of cooldown / limitation on it. Imagine being able to dodge backwards across the map quicker than you could run the same distance - I don't think anyone wants to see that.
I found myself thinking that combat movement speed might similarly be related to armor type. If implemented this would need to be a marginal effect for armor types that significantly help with damage mitigation. I don't mind the idea of playing a marginally slower tank if the damage reduction balances the heavy armor speed reduction. That said no player is going to want to see their character disadvantaged; it needs to be a play balance trade off which they see as beneficial to the role they want to fulfill.
The Rock mobs, were good, a little more polish required perhaps, but far better than I was expecting.
There are 2 comments on what I personally think could be improved.
1. (which I am aware will likely be addressed with the visual customization you had mentioned) I feel that size of the large sword tailings were to bright/big; that art direction is a bit more anime than what I can see from the current art direction and I don't feel like it fits in as well.
2. (this may be outside the scope of this forum post) When monsters are spawning their spawn animation is a bit too perfectly in synch. Maybe something like adding an RNG (max 1 second) delay to the animation would at least feel as if they aren't all doing the same thing at the same time.
First off, thank you for the presentation! We all have high hopes for this game's success, because if its good then we're all going to win. I've gone through the June Livestream a few times now, and I have some quick feedback points to present:
1. The animations are greatly improved! I would however recommend a little more easing-out of the animation cycle after the swings with the 2h sword. It looks a little stiff and lacking recoil, but also it feels a little too fast in the recovery half of the swing(s). The overhead swing was nice, but I think the horizontal swings could use some work (re. two handed sword attacks). I really love the work that has been done thus far, and I have the utmost respect for the animators/artists on the project.
2. I had the thought of a possible stat or mitigation tool for dealing with those knock-back effects. If the player were to block the knock-back attack, perhaps they wouldn't fly back so far (or avoid getting knocked-down). Additionally, if the player has a stat (such as Strength or Resilience) at a higher levels, while wielding a large weapon (such as the 2h sword), there could be an animation of them "resisting" the knock-back effect by reducing the distance pushed. The animation that could trigger from this resist would be to thrust their weapon into the ground like an anchor, causing a dragging effect (with ground deformation sprites) in their wake. It could also work with daggers I suppose, but the image in my head with the 2h sword was just too good not to share.
3. The weight of the weapons appear much better, minus the easing-out portion of the horizontal animation cycle(s) with the 2h sword, however the speed of the attacks seemed maybe a tad too fast. If this "speed" with which the player was attacking was the result of being higher level or having some sort of haste bonus or increased proficiency/stat boost, then I could accept it (as long as lower levels or lacking of buffs/haste would reduce the speed, comparatively). Also, if the speed was due to some sort of haste effect or boost from stats/skills, it would be good to reflect that with some sort of particle trail or glow, just to show that it is an unnatural speed. If it was just Steven being awesome, then I have no further criticisms.
4. Now, if the presentation was an indication of the speed with which combat will play out, I would just want to recommend considering slowing it down just a bit. I think if you balance the idea of fewer, but much more impactful hits with a large 2-hander, it will feel more interesting to the player (where each attack has more meaning), rather than constant spamming of attacks and not considering their impact & importance.
5. Lastly, I want to say that I love the death animation of the little rocks as they got knocked-back and scattered to pieces. Very nice. More of this, please.
To answer Steven asking if this is in the right direction: YES (x100)
When it was revealed I was incredibly happy we no longer have the weightlessness of attacks from A1 + the root while swinging. In MMORPGs with action combat, feeling like you're "locked" into a single animation really blips the flow of combat up. I still love the action/tab hybrid idea so I hope with these changes you aren't forgoing that premise! +rep for the way the rock monsters exploded when hit with the greatsword. I also really dig how you've decided to include the customizability that addons typically add, base game. That's one of my biggest pet peeves in games is when addons aren't allowed but ui customizability is nonexistent!
As for improvement,
-cleaving with the greatsword is a nice touch, but cleaving with the daggers seemed a little silly reach-wise. If all melee weapons can cleave and it seems the biggest sword does the biggest damage at the same speed, what's to stop everyone from having to run a greatsword due to "best in slot?"
-Every weapon's movespeed being the same is weird, but that could be a design choice I get used to. A simple patch to this is adding a speed modifier to every weapon, or changing the walking animations (ONLY while your weapon is drawn) so that the animation FEELS slower but isn't actually any slower. Apex Legends does this really well where some of it's legends seem to move slower but they all are just as agile as the others. To me, a 15 pound daggers and a 80 pound sword shouldn't hinder your movement the same.
Super happy to see the direction of the game Getting more and more excited with each passing streammmmm!
Combat
---
Overall the systems at play to give weapons visible weight are doing their jobs well. As a base the, timings on the heavy weapon swings felt good and impactful.
I like the visual data VFX provide, giving a nice power to the swings. The effects themselves might be a bit harsh, and being able to adjust intensity on a personalization level might allow players to dial in a visual style for them.
The block definitely needs more reactive representation when hit, with just audio and VFX, the impact is nearly completely lost.
Camera effects are a nice way to subtly add in weight an impact, again being able to control the strength of these might be nice for a good customization into how impactful combat feels.
~~~
At this point in my write up something felt wrong about the animations to me, specifically hit 3 on the greatsword felt really fast for the type of move it was. I started trying to break it down frame by frame to figure out where it was going wrong, and I inadvertently ended up getting into a bit of how the attacks are handled. This could also be skewed because of the framerate of the vod, but from the footage I have available this is what I've gleaned.
---
For starters each attack is broken down into a few main parts, VFX and character animation. VFX is pretty straightforward, but with character animation you can go a bit more in-depth.
The animations get broken down into a startup, a peak, an impact, and a follow through. The peak is a bit special so we'll get to that later. To explain these, the startup is when you input an attack command, and your character begins to move. During this time there is not an active attack. Think of it as wind up. IRL in this time you are working against the weight of the weapon, obviously its intensified depending on how much weight you are fighting against. The impact is the point of contact during the swing. Follow through is your wind-down, after the active attack has ended.
We also need to understand some constraints the animations are working under. Since attacks are not moving the player, animations cannot disjoint the location of the player. If I recall correctly an early version of combat was working around some attacks pushing you forward with each swing, but the current system is not designed around this. You might be asking yourself "Ok Argo why is this important?" Because of this, certain elements that can provide more impact on attacks are lost, as well as limiting how animations are handled, for the trade off of more player control during attacks. If you were to actually take a large sword, and be doing a big overhead swing like hit 1 of the heavy weapon we were shown, to get the most impact out of it you would lean into the swing and take a step forward, but because we cant move the player forward, we cant take this step. Instead we can offer the illusion of this while keeping the feet landing in the same relative location. When played at full speed it is pretty negligible but all the small things add up. It also helps to understand how the game you are critiquing handles things.
This isn't even the main point I'm trying to make, I just really like talking about game design.
Getting back to it, on an attack startup you are working against the weapons weight, so it comes out a bit slower. This helps build in the momentum of the swing. The peak is where the weight of the weapon is turned in your favor. I couldn't really tell if this happened in the vod, as lower frame rates makes going frame by frame less reliable, but this is the point where the attack "starts". Somewhere after this, the VFX begin, completely separate from the attack animation. When the attack reaches the enemy we reach impact.
Impact affects the character animation in a neat way, the animation that is normally on a fixed motion will actually just pause for a few frames, giving a sort of resistance effect. This actually reads pretty well full speed, contributing to the overall impact focus that the combat showcase was building up. It does however cause a few problems. Since the attack and VFX aren't linked, they become disjointed. To handle this the character animation can just jump forward the frames it was paused but now there is a sort of choppiness to the attack. I think the snap is the most jarring part here, you can also see the visual disjoint on attack to VFX
I honestly don't know if I have a reasonable solution to this but an interesting idea to mess around with could be smear frames. The VFX already kind of does this with motion blur/distortion, but the end effect is still a bit jarring. Applying some of this to the moving parts of the character and not just the weapon might create a more reasonable effect, but I am not really sure how this would be done. To give a character smear, you would have to take into consideration armor color, model shape, etc. And I do not have that experience, but its an idea nonetheless.
--- I have some other things to say about the current melee combat but this write up is getting a bit long so I might make a separate post talking about various ideas and misc things. If not other ideas should be near the bottom.
Text
---
I loved hearing about the customization options for damage numbers. Overall I think the readability is pretty decent although I would love to be able to change the float speed/distance of the numbers. Being able to change gap size between outgoing and incoming damage would also be very nice.
If you want to get really nitty gritty, for incoming damage having a threshold based on a % of hp done in a single attack act as a modifier would be really cool. Lets say you can set up a threshold for 20% of hp that will modify text size to be bigger, color to be changed, and font to be different. This could be used for players to set up very easily readable threat identification without having to look away from center screen to an hp bar or anything like that.
Having multi hit attacks do stacking numbers would also be a nice touch.
Misc
---
Wake-up animations being uniform upon entering combat with a group pulls away from some of the immersion, simply giving wakeup animation variations in its speed, or starting point can go a long ways to building more immersion. Of course you don't want this to heavily affect the time it takes between the first and last enemy to reach you.
The hit 1 ground decal felt just a bit too big to me, although that might just be personal preference.
I did have more combat system feedback and suggestions but I think some of those are too in-depth for this comment, its already long enough as is. I might do a write up sometime soon but life got me a bit busy...
---
I am aware that this is just an early baseline for melee combat, I am just bringing to light the things I noticed. Super excited to see how the iterative process develops this system and how the combat will develop as we see more complex systems and abilities overlay on top of it. I believe that this combat direction is very good, and can lead to a very dynamic MMO. The overall design of combat is something that lines up with my own personal design theories, and it is built around very strong design pillars. Lots of what I said is just in depth nitty gritty stuff, and is really just stuff I like to break down. I honestly think you can push player rootedness further on heavy weapons, building more around strong impact, but it is a thin line to walk to give players a good feeling of control. Much of this breakdown was also just focused on how melee mechanically works and not how it could affect things like PvP. I would also love to see some of this combat showcased in group play and how that overall looks. If you read all the way through this, I love you. ~Argo
We’d like your feedback on the Alpha Two Basic Melee Weapon Attack Update discussed during the June 2022 Development Update Livestream.
I love the combat update and the direction you are taking! Some people seem to think that no useful feedback can be given based off the "limited" things we saw, however I very much disagree and think there is plenty to touch on that is absolutely valuable feedback. While we cannot yet have a good idea of how the combat will be as a whole by only seeing one piece of the puzzle (especially considering it will be hybrid combat), we can still look at what we have seen individually and provide feedback on that independently.
-COMBAT-
Animation:
• The animations for the heavy attacks look great and seem to flow fairly well together, and the speed and intended weight behind them looks good. I personally like combat animations that flow and look cohesive rather than chopping and cutting between animations for each attack, so I am happy with how the heavy attacks were animated.
• I liked the style of the light weapon animations for the dual daggers, as well as the slightly crouched over stance that gives character to the use of the weapons.
• Some of the animations for the dual daggers in particular do look a bit choppy/instantaneous. This is understandable since you are obviously going to be more agile using light weapons and attack with them more quickly, but it does seem just a little bit too instantaneous to me, mostly when basic attacking in rapid succession. So perhaps that could do with a little bit of smoothing out just to make it flow better between successive attacks. However, if that quick cutting for light attacks is the desired style then I don't mind too much, just a minor preference thing.
• The split body animations look much better than they used to, the foot placement and animation of the legs while moving in different directions during attacks is looking very natural now.
• As much as it can be hard to get a proper feel for the responsiveness of the attacks just from watching rather than playing, they did seem responsive on the stream and I can't wait to be able to try it out in game.
VFX:
• For the VFX, I like the colors used in the attacks and the wind effects when using the spinning ability is a nice touch. Other details like the implementation of impact decals from swinging and hitting the ground are great and the timing of the decals appearing is spot on with the animations and sounds.
• Some of the VFX for the heavy attacks is a bit blindingly bright. The third swing on the attack chain (long sweeping right to left attack) was like a mini flashbang, and particularly the hammer ability at certain zoom levels was blinding since it swings back towards the camera and a large bright yellow hammer quickly covers the whole screen for a moment then disappears. Perhaps a slightly more gradual sweep of light that is a little less intense could be better for the basic attack rather than a very fast appearing and fast disappearing bright flash in the middle of a swing. Maybe I just have sensitive eyes though, but was a little bit jarring at times even after re-watching in a lit room. I imagine there will likely be settings to adjust that sort of thing anyway but thought I would mention it regardless.
• The VFX for the light attacks looks great; I love the grayscale trails left by the daggers.
• I do wonder: Will the color or effects of those swipe trails vary for different daggers (and other weapons) or will these effects will be universal for each weapon type regardless of theme, rarity etc. of the weapon or augments?
SFX:
• The direction taken with the SFX is promising, the heavy attacks sound chonky and impactful which is great to make the weapon feel like it really is a heavy weapon. It's always unsatisfying when you have a badass heavy weapon that doesn't even sound like it's hitting hard, so I'm glad that's not the case. And the same thing with the light attack SFX, it was what I would typically expect from daggers and was good. Looking forward to hearing how more abilities and the different ranged attacks sound.
OVERALL:
In comparison to the previous combat we saw a year ago, it looks great so far and I am excited to see the progress that has been made in other areas of the combat; particularly the abilities and their augments, as well as ranged attacks. I hope that once we see more pieces of the combat puzzle and can start piecing it all together to get an idea on what combat will look and play like as a whole that it all fits and works well together to create a fun combat experience. I like what I have seen so far and whichever way you go with the combat, whether it's continuing in this same direction or making some changes, as long as it's fun and rewarding I will be happy.
-THE ROCK CREATURES!-
A little bit about the rock creatures that were being battled to showcase the combat:
• I love them!
• The way they are hidden within the environment is great and I would absolutely love to see more of that kind of thinking implemented for mobs and their placement in the world. It makes the world feel more truly alive and as a whole, and gives easily identifiable visual purpose and meaning to the mobs rather than having a world with mobs simply scattered around. So big plus for that
• I love the noises they make when they start to form themselves, warning you that you have just gotten too close and disturbed something, and the way they piece together and then rush or roll towards you is great. The rolling animation and speed of travel seemed to not match up perfectly at times but I'm being really picky, overall I loved it and I liked the different size variants too.
• I also absolutely love the satisfying way they break apart and die, with rocks flying back after a strong hit. Those kinds of details make combat feel more alive and death animations and effects in particular are pretty important to make killing mobs more satisfying and enjoyable so I liked seeing that kind of detail and hope to see more like that in the future.
ABOUT MASS MOB FARMING AND AOE:
I have seen quite a few people talk about how they don't want Ashes to just be masses of mobs that you group aggro and then mindlessly AoE down after what they saw with the battle against the rock creatures. While I definitely agree with this and very much prefer having more thoughtful battles against lesser amounts of more difficult mobs, I don't want to generalize or make an assumption that Ashes will be that way based off one showcase of a particular creature and their environment, plus we don't know how strong they really were since Steven has God powers. And while I agree with that concern I do also like the idea of some mobs being horde/pack oriented if it suits their design, so if that is the case with these rock creatures then I am all for it! I think a good mix between different types of encounters is good for variety. Some being very difficult individual mobs, and others being weaker on their own but strong by working and grouping together; sometimes just by having more numbers, but I would also love to see mobs that work together in smarter ways. I'm sure you have plenty of great ideas for all kinds of different mobs though!
OTHER THINGS:
• The "Dread Crawler" looks great. Love seeing the creativity with the double tongues and tail pincers, and I can't wait to see what kind of mechanics the boss has.
• The "Mantle Of Radiant Grove" armor and weapon set looks very nice, I love those kinds of ornate designs on armor, and having the leaves adjust based on season (or having different looking sets for different biomes/seasons) is something I'm all for
-FINAL THOUGHTS-
I am very curious as to how the hybrid combat is going to turn out as a whole once all the pieces come together, so I am looking forward to seeing those other pieces and being able to have a better grasp on combat as a whole. In terms of the pieces that we did see this stream, all in all it looks very promising and I enjoyed this update very much. Comparing some of the things that we had seen very early versions of to the new development is like night and day. The drastic improvements make me optimistic and excited to see the results of that same quality of development continued for other aspects of the combat, as well as other systems entirely. Everything you guys show is always such an astounding improvement to what we last saw and the standards you have set for yourselves is very high, and somehow you keep on hitting or surpassing that standard, so I hope you're proud of how things are progressing. Steven and Margaret looked very excited on stream which is always good to see I am looking forward to the next update!
Doubt anyone will read this but I would like to put it out there regardless. First off, EXCELLENT WORK. the difference thus far is massive and you are indeed 100% moving in the right direction. I literally just made an account here to say these things as it looks absolutely wonderful from what I've seen to date. I follow the project but haven't been active in any testing or feedback until just now.
For feed back... I know its still a WIP and I am sure these have already crossed your minds but I would just like to list them out to get them out.
First and foremost, I am an auto attacker, I love abilities, but nothing gets my blood pumping harder then a badass with a badass sword hacking and slashing his way through the mess of enemies. I will say, that the attacks seem redundant. Of course you cant have unlimited combinations or variations as that is just... too much work. But.. just stick with me here.. What if you could make a system... that prevented the needless redundancy of the same 3/4 sword swing animations?
I am not a mastermind, nor am I a genius so my idea is probably lackluster in comparison to what you guys are capable of. This is just me hoping my small idea sparks the professionals minds in the right direction.
When you first pick up a sword... You are a noob. You suck. The sword sucks. You wont be able to do much unless you swing it around, get some practice and get the hang of things. Lets just call this, Mastery. The more you swing, the more you master your weapon.
This mastery allows you to brush up your sword skills, making your clumsy attacks into more polished, refined sword strokes. Faster, more power and more versatile. Mastering your sword allows you to chain your attacks better, making them seamlessly flow together like a dancing leaf in the wind, instead of just... stopping and resetting the animations. and as you learn, you learn more combinations, and in variations it may randomize and switch up so its not in the same order... upper slash to side slash to a half spin into a downward thrust, or perhaps a side slash into a downward slash into a full spin slashing upwards... just giving it some variation so it doesn't feel so.. linear.
The second idea would be as you rank up your mastery levels, maybe you can go to different sword masters, each having their own sword styles, allowing you to choose the ones you like the most. Having multiple masters per mastery, so people don't feel limited. But also trying to avoid a -meta- where everyone strives for the same sword style. Pick the style that suits you best.
- that's it for the swinging anyways next up is the impact.
of course I'm sure you have seen this in previous comments, but the sword weight is there, and it is fabulous. but the impact it has on the environment is heavier then the impact it has on the target you are hitting. There needs to be some resistance or even some recoil, If you are cutting into an enemy, with ease a limb should fly off. But if you are chipping off a giant stone golem, your sword should deflect, or.. if it doesn't deflect at least maybe slow down slightly as you force it through, giving the golem a good jolt, or shock showing the physical impact. Otherwise it just feels like the blade is simply just passing through. (which I guess is normal for most games)
and last but not least, the first thing i noticed, the idle animations / running animations with the giant sword, it really doesn't feel as if you are holding something that massive... Now I don't expect you to run slower or whatever, but if you are standing still no one is gonna just be holding up that giant hunk of metal. I would stab it into the ground in front of me or have it in my hand with the tip pointed on the ground. Now I get that were buff bad asses here and weight means nothing, but I'm just saying there are cooler ways to carry a badass great sword. If we can run fast as hell the sword would probably look more intimidating if it was kept low and off to the side, instead of just being held straight up, or if your strafing left to right the sword would drop from one side to the other to act as a counter balance for your movement, it wouldn't just be stationary like that in the video.
I really love the impact that it has with the environment, slamming it into the ground, cutting crescents in the ground as you swing, leaving trenches and craters. It feels really good.
All in all I rate the progress a 20 out of 10 just hope to see some more variety in the idle animations, running animations, and attacking animations!
I would keep it simple and say 'good job keep up the great work', but I'll flesh out some thoughts so that it's a bit more useful to the dev team.
1. What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
I feel these basic melee attacks that adhere to the spectrum of Agency vs Weight is a really good system that not only succeeds on both fronts but also sets a good range for variability to build out from. Its not just about using a greatsword that looks and sounds like a greatsword but its also about how it feels. If the weapons can live on this spectrum then I think youve succeeded at making them feel how theyre supposed to feel. I like that there will be that asymmetry from a gameplay perspective too. You cant just swing a heavy sword around with the same fidelity as a dagger, so the asymmetry is justified using your system. Its a give and take and I think you've done well. Also Steven and the dev on the stream talking about the footwork, and the directional animations is a big deal. Those little things make a big difference in the feel.
2. Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
Yes I think the sounds and effects that are environment/material specific will need to be consistently fleshed out. However the Agency vs Weight aspect was more important to establish first. Now that youve done that you can keep adding more to the effects and sounds.
3. Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
The Soulsborne genre is always a fantastic example of weightiness for those massive weapons. That level of weight, like in DS3 or Elden Ring, is probably the highest threshold where agency is removed, but a good example to draw from. Even just the wind sound effect of a massive sword or axe displacing the air around it just adds to the awesomeness and the power of these moves.
4. Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
Currently Im planning on playing a Ranger or a run and gun character because I find the run and gun gameplay philosophy to be super fun in general. Im excited for it, and can see the potential with the dexterity and fluidity shown from the dual daggers. I'm just concerned that the ranged gameplay will become either static (turret gameplay) or just like boring auto attack spam. Instead I really hope for the mobility aspect to make ranged fun and strong. It's about positioning, its about dodging attacks and anticipating how an opponent can close distance on you. It's that chess match where its not even about pumping out the most DPS in that scenario (pvp example), but about figuring out how to keep them out of close combat. I think ranger abilities should focus on that. Traps, escapes, set ups, crits or debilitating effects at the correct moment, that kinda stuff. Therefore, the basic attacks weaving in between here should help build that run and gun dance. I would argue mage and ranger are the same in that regard. I think this type of ranged gameplay with that basic attack philosophy (run and gun with auto attack weaving and positioning) is the way to go.
This is a huge step in the good direction! I usually feel much satisfaction in attacks that brings bodyweight in it even more then previewed. Like spinning your body mid air to give that feel for a heavier impact. Make the legs crouch for readying a big jump. Make it a fast jump (otherwise it gets too floaty), let the mid air time linger for like a 0.5-1 second. While mid-air you can make the body rotate to prep for a bigger sense of impact. Then make the downward blow. The decline should be a tiny bit slower then jumping up but still fast. I think that this would feel incredibly good and hope you'll test it out.
Just came here to say that from what I saw in the video, I am extremely excited for the rest of combat to be seen. melee looks great so far. I like what I see with the skills kits too. This is a game I am excited to play and I like the direction you are going so far!
Still want to see range / magic / heals and general ranged targeting stuff and the GCD timer, but if this is melee combat basic attack and we are supposed to weave in skills while clicking noobs like this, I'm already sold. Keep up the good work team, you got the start of something really special here.
Generally, I am happy with the direction of the auto-attack system, I just want to point out one concern of mine in relation to what I have seen and how that connects to the framework of (All classes can use all weapons to an extent):
- The last thing I want to see is a Wizard/Mage class using a great sword as efficiently as a Warrior. Efficiency could mean many things but if the aim is not to restrict classes to a specific weapon family of choice, then there should be some sort of a system that punishes a Mage for using a great sword in a way that is more severe than it punishes a warrior; that could be through:
- Movement speed penalty
- Damage reduction for magic attacks
- Extra cost of resources when casting spells
- Longer cooldowns.
The list can go on. The most important thing is that I don't want the whole world to be specced to use GREAT SWORD OF THE ANGUISHED VANQUISHERS and STAFF OF PIERCING THOUGHTS.
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
-Impact - attacks must feel like I am actually hitting the creature...this usually comes in the form of sound effects and mob reaction to my hit (a little nudge, and a impact animation)
-Fluidity - I think it's very important for the general flow to feel like there is a complete swing/stab
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks?
-Yes. I'm not sure of the early stages of development are what's causing this, but it felt like half the animation was missing. Someone made a comment on reddit where they said it looked like there was a split second of lag with each 2-handed swing. I have to agree. It looked choppy, and felt like it lacked a full swing animation. This feels like an animation I would expect from a street fighter or Asian MMO game. I do not think it matches the aesthetic of the game very well and does not look good
-I also believe there is too much animation effects - they are too flashy. It almost appears as you are swinging weapons with enchantments on them. Secondly, the impact and swing animations effects appear cartoonish. A possible resolution is to scale them down, are add a lot more transparency to this. It reminds me, as it stands now, of a comic book impact animation "BAM!" or "POW!".
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that are done well?
-Yes. There are plenty of games with good melee attacks, but the forefront goes to Overwatch melee - specifically, the Reinhardt hammer swing, and Winston melee. These are both slow, meaningful, impactful-feeling melees. The basic melee in OW would not be a good example as they are typically too fast, which is what I don't like about the preview's melee. As mentione before, I think the animations are too choppy
Is there anything in particular you are excited or concerned about regarding what was show in the basic melee weapon attacks?
-Firstly, I think it looks 80% good. It would not break the game for me, but again, it feels like a different style than what I think a lot of people are expecting and want with AoC. If we just make the swings feel a bit more whole, and not so instantaneous, I think it would be, dare I say, "perfect".
-I was excisted to see the pace is high and very entertaining.
Thank you for reading. I hope the point I am trying to make comes across clearly.
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
Weight
Fluidity
Impactfulness
Skill expression (E.G dodging and using attacks faster than your enemy)
Integration with Abilities in a meaningful way so as to not make basic weapon attacks redundant or "filler". E.G, basic weapon attacks being the fuel for powerful abilities rather than being used during "CD Downtime".
Firstly, I'd like to start by saying that this direction is exactly what I'd hoped you would move toward following the feeling I got from A1.
The weight & fluidity combined with animation driven strikes, VFX and sound all made me very confident for the future of the combat in AOC.
It's looks on the surface of things to get that "grip" on the "float" that we experienced in the A1 iteration and I think you're doing a stellar job. I really liked the comparative weight difference between the daggers and the 2h sword, in my head it gives me a "this could prove for some very interesting skill expression" thought and as I am one of the "give action combat a chance" crowd this is exactly what I wanted to see, I've played many action & tab combat games and loved both versions, however the style that has always kept me heavily engaged in my approach or combos is action combat. I mean we saw a glimpse of this from the stream, Steven was repositioning himself using teleports in order to position is aoe ban hammer. Tab has been king for a long time, but no king rules forever am I right? I just personally find having a single style of combat gets a bit "mindless", I think it's why I found demon Hunter in wow the most engaging class in tab combat, because the majority of their abilities are aoe, dashes or directionally aimed. MMOs in my personal opinion just haven't found that "sweet spot" yet and I cannot wait to test AOC A2....it's my belief you guys are going to hit that spot!!
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
Honestly at this stage I don't think there's anything missing as I wasn't sure of the exact direction coming off the back of A1, I'm just extremely happy to see the direction for the melee weapon attacks finally emerge in a state that shows me that the combat is going to be engaging. I CANNOT WAIT to see more abilities incorporated with these weapon attacks.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Kena:Bridge of Spirits (Highly Underrated for both Melee & Ranged, recommend to anyone reading this)
God of War
Dragons Dogma (Ranged combat in this is also very very good)
Horizon Zero Dawn
Zelda: BOTW
Genshin Impact (Don't...okay...just play it)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
Super excited to see the transition between basic attacks and "abilities" and how these will interact with eachother. I am also particularly excited to see ranged combat, wands / bows after this look into the melee combat. I have very few concerns at this point, I'm just going to wait patiently to see more & hopefully test in the coming months!
I made a post earlier, but it is buried somewhere. I also wanted to add, it looks like your character fights in frozen in animation lock for a split second after the swing. Not a huge fan of that.
As melee goes, I think this looked fantastic! Elden Ring-like combat is the most fun and, most importantly, IMMERSIVE style of combat. Not sure what the team has in store for spells, as I think they would benefit more from tab targeting and tracking, but I'm sure it'll be great. This is looking fantastic, I can't wait!
I think this combat looks great. But I think the attacks are too flashy, the effects on each swing could be toned down a bit. And I think the lighting effect of every swing should be the color of the blade, so that it just looks like the blur of a fast swing with the blade. The greatsword with the gold slashing effect seemed out of place when the blade itself was silver.
Really enjoyed watching this last night, so much so I came back to watch it in full glory today. But I hit an issue...
I was watching in full screen, pretending it's a game, and I started to feel motion sick. I can't put my finger on as to why. I don't think it's the animation effects. I think it might be the camera motion, or the fact that everything "graphics wise" is REALLY sharp and it's causing my brain to have a melt down.
When Steve moves the camera my brain is telling me there are micro judders, which feels like screen tearing. Being zoomed out does improve the issue, but it's still an issue. Maybe it's just me, but to counter the motion sickness I normally have to add a layer over the game that blurs the graphics slightly, smoothing them out, which then stops the motion sickness.
I'm hoping it's just a video problem and being in the game doesn't cause this effect. Other than that, I neither like nor dislike the combat. It's a hybrid of tab target and free camera, but we didn't see the tab targeting. I personally think the speed of the swings are too fast, but that's personal preference. I would love a tab target, auto attack system as I don't like having to click to attack. Also, I really dislike the 1, 2, 3, hit combo. Just normal auto attacks with weight are much better. Normally this is the type of play style I try to avoid, but I also enjoyed New World, so who knows?
It's still very early days. As I said, the motion sickness may be a YouTube / video issue. It could be a UI thing. Clearly the team weren't ready to show the UI, but the UI is normally a visual anchor for my eyes. Kinda like driving a car, compared to being the passenger.
Regardless, the game looks amazing. Keep up the good work and I'll see you in A2.
EDIT: I worked it out. Due to there being no UI, I'm focused on the swings. There are indeed missing animations, but this looks intentional (or just A2). Going from one animation to another has not been "smoothed". If you watch the shoulders closesly you will see it jutters from one animation to another, and some swings have been designed to "Hard cut" from one to another. Due the to body not flowing, my eyes cannot follow. When you hard cut, the shoulders move location completely, resulting in my "Anchor" being lost. This is why I get the feeling of motion sickness.
Unfortunaly, due to speed of the weapon, it's going to be tough to smooth out the shoulders and animations without slowing down the whole weapon. Personally, I would like to see the swing speed slowed down. If you could focus on the body fluidity, it would help with my motion sickness.
Edit 2: it's also the camera... why is there a pulse on the camera when the weapon hits? I know it's there to add weight, but it's also vomit inducing
0
Options
Night WingsMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited July 2022
I liked it I feel it needs little more frames on the animation seems little static other wise looks really good and I think the particle effect of how shiny etc should be a graphic setting for the user to optimize them self.
Other then that I think you guys are doing awesome job
Likes:
The weapon swings look natural and the mix of player agency and limitations from your weapon swings are very will done.
The animations for the weapons look smooth and seemless
Improvements:
The player movement animations look a little choppy - having the body flow while swinging makes the player feel more immersed in the combat overall
The light particles when swinging a basic weapon should be uniform - my suggestion: Magical weapons should have a colored light particle array(as you have on the greatsword) and basic non-magical weapons should have a light gray/silver array(daggers) a mix of the two can be confusing and not very intuitive.
Having the weapon interact with the mob Either via monster stagger or physical obstruction from the monster would be better. (I know the iterations of this is to many to count and trying to provide this for every material a wep interacts with is not very feasible) just something to think about -
Id love to see what your team thinks and what they can come up with.
Overall, This is very impressive for a game being in alpha stage - and the feedback/community interaction you guys have is refreshing to say the least. Keep it up! Looking forward to testing the game for you
I like it. Couple of things I'd give as feedback (probably mentioned a lot before me)
- Basic attack flashiness should be reduced. The point of basic attacks is to be basic. Make that yellow flash something like the dagger effect.
Also a side note, I paused randomly while Steven swung heavy sword and noticed that the little flash when an enemy is hit by the basic attack appears way too fast, like you hit the button and the flash appears while your still beginning to swing. I feel like it should have a very slight subtle delay so you can translate that swing timing better.
- Whenever you get hit there should be a subtle animation on the characters so you get to feel the impact of the hits.
- I feel like the heavy sword animations are either too fast at one point in the swings or missing a frame I don't really get what makes it look like that. Dagger is fine tho.
- I'd also like to see better sound effects on the hits, it plays a major part in how satisfying combat is. Imo right now they lack impact.
Its really hard to give feedback on combat without actually being in combat playing but here we go…
Basic Attacks & Animation: Blocking is awesome, I LOVE that it was taken into account because I totally forgot about it. The windup looks critically awesome but the speed of the actual attack looks to follow through a bit fast possibly. Maybe this feels better to play though(???). Other than that the body animations looked great and so fluid even in its early stage. The whole thing where animation depends on movement direction is so cool.
Weight & Impact: I’m gonna need to wait for alpha 2 to really judge this one, but from a viewer perspective it looks like you guys are absolutely on the correct path. Overall, SUCH a great implement from the last demo.
VFX: The effects for the basic attack swing on the 2H looks a bit excessive while the daggers look great. The yellow lighting and sparks from the 2H sword swinging just does not look “basic” for a basic attack to me. The 2h weapon leaving marks on the environment while swinging was so cool.
Customization of Text: Not much to add here. It looks great and I cant really think of much more customization I’d like to have. The general style of it I like, it seems prominent enough to ingest the hit data, yet minimal enough to not be a focal point.
Monsters & Environment: I love where you don’t always know where the danger could be and there are not always pre-spawned NPC’s everywhere polluting the environment. It would make a player perform a risk assessment if traveling off the beaten path in an area like this because you don’t know if 2 or 5 enemies will appear. 10/10 on this direction and idea.
I’m a software engineer but certainly not a game developer. I really like how the developers discuss at times how they structured or created a feature programmatically. You can really tell when developers seem to enjoy working with the codebase which is a fantastic sign this “late” in the development stage.
10/10 monthly update and THE RIGHT DIRECTION. So long as it does not get moved towards a BDO korean-y action combat direction I'm fine with everything so far.
You talked a lot about weight but I think the 2h sword strikes still feel so fast and effortless that the weapon seems weightless, taking away the feeling of good meaty combat! There's the effect of momentum on the follow-through already, but the swing needs a little bit more of a wind-up phase before reaching full speed to give it convincing weight. Also, that max speed for a sword that big could be dialled back to a more realistic speed. I think the flashes of light at the tip of the blade (coloured weapon trailing?) should be removed or at least have an option for the player to toggle them on and off. They kind of have an arcade game feel that I don't think fits with the rest of the game (beautify and realistic aesthetic). I know that might sound a bit harsh but I'm really invested in this game turning out nicely so I just want to be honest that this combat still needs a lot of work in my opinion!
The daggers look good! The only comment I could give could be to dial the blur down some and remove the white colour fill in the blur to add a bit more subtlety to the strikes. Maybe the speed on these could even be taken down a bit too, I know they are meant to be fast as daggers but I think it still could slow down a bit. I love the NPCs in this game they look awesome.
The overall movement still feels too floaty, like when players jump, land, and change direction there isn't a convincing feeling of weight and momentum. Especially considering they will be wearing armour and carrying gear.
Overall this game looks awesome and I can't wait to play it! Char art looks INCREDIBLE!!
The only thing that i felt weird on the combat was the last hit with the greatsword, maybe make all the animation a little bit slower but more impacfull in terms of damage, Like making you feel good with every hit connected
Hi everyone! First, I want to say congrats to the team, so far, you are delivering with what they said the game will try to achieve.
Now, about the combat, I do believe this showed up the fact AoC is getting some kind of uniqueness, not like remaking the wheel but using in its own way if that make sense. Also, even if there is still work that needs to be done so this base combat showed can be call "ready to go", for sure its a good starting point.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
I'd might say, parry and evade animations, I think the player received feedback from blocking/evading attacks (either the player or the mobs) was totally missing, it might just be it will be showed up later, but I think the fact you showed some blocking pose animations from the character left people feeling like it was just missing.
The daggers animations, especially the x one when attacking forward, felt kind of... misplaced if the character moves while doing it, it might be a good idea to let those animations move a little in the same direction it was originated
Comments
I think alot of players have stated that before aswell
The ground tends to kinds look like a flat "floor" with sprites placed ontop of the floor.
Im not a video game designer so i have no idea if its really hard to make the ground actually look like ground or not since it looks like that in most games.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
With that proviso, the Action combat demo looked good.
I like the idea that larger weapons have a degree of movement restriction during use, so long as you are sacrificing movement flexibility for a tangible benefit such as increased DPS or increased damage mitigation. I would dislike a clear DPS advantage being given to smaller weapons, either directly or due to a higher attack rate increasing the odds of proc-ing an additional effect.
Weapon selection should come down to play balance, situation requirements and personal preference.
The backwards dodge was okay, more realistic than VLDL's lampooning of "Rolly-poly". I noted that it could become quite silly unless there is some kind of cooldown / limitation on it. Imagine being able to dodge backwards across the map quicker than you could run the same distance - I don't think anyone wants to see that.
I found myself thinking that combat movement speed might similarly be related to armor type. If implemented this would need to be a marginal effect for armor types that significantly help with damage mitigation. I don't mind the idea of playing a marginally slower tank if the damage reduction balances the heavy armor speed reduction. That said no player is going to want to see their character disadvantaged; it needs to be a play balance trade off which they see as beneficial to the role they want to fulfill.
The Rock mobs, were good, a little more polish required perhaps, but far better than I was expecting.
I look forward to the next livestream.
Thanks team, keep up the good work!
There are 2 comments on what I personally think could be improved.
1. (which I am aware will likely be addressed with the visual customization you had mentioned) I feel that size of the large sword tailings were to bright/big; that art direction is a bit more anime than what I can see from the current art direction and I don't feel like it fits in as well.
2. (this may be outside the scope of this forum post) When monsters are spawning their spawn animation is a bit too perfectly in synch. Maybe something like adding an RNG (max 1 second) delay to the animation would at least feel as if they aren't all doing the same thing at the same time.
very slow, I think people are wrong in wanting realistic movement in mmorpg, you have to escape reality, be fanciful
First off, thank you for the presentation! We all have high hopes for this game's success, because if its good then we're all going to win. I've gone through the June Livestream a few times now, and I have some quick feedback points to present:
1. The animations are greatly improved! I would however recommend a little more easing-out of the animation cycle after the swings with the 2h sword. It looks a little stiff and lacking recoil, but also it feels a little too fast in the recovery half of the swing(s). The overhead swing was nice, but I think the horizontal swings could use some work (re. two handed sword attacks). I really love the work that has been done thus far, and I have the utmost respect for the animators/artists on the project.
2. I had the thought of a possible stat or mitigation tool for dealing with those knock-back effects. If the player were to block the knock-back attack, perhaps they wouldn't fly back so far (or avoid getting knocked-down). Additionally, if the player has a stat (such as Strength or Resilience) at a higher levels, while wielding a large weapon (such as the 2h sword), there could be an animation of them "resisting" the knock-back effect by reducing the distance pushed. The animation that could trigger from this resist would be to thrust their weapon into the ground like an anchor, causing a dragging effect (with ground deformation sprites) in their wake. It could also work with daggers I suppose, but the image in my head with the 2h sword was just too good not to share.
3. The weight of the weapons appear much better, minus the easing-out portion of the horizontal animation cycle(s) with the 2h sword, however the speed of the attacks seemed maybe a tad too fast. If this "speed" with which the player was attacking was the result of being higher level or having some sort of haste bonus or increased proficiency/stat boost, then I could accept it (as long as lower levels or lacking of buffs/haste would reduce the speed, comparatively). Also, if the speed was due to some sort of haste effect or boost from stats/skills, it would be good to reflect that with some sort of particle trail or glow, just to show that it is an unnatural speed. If it was just Steven being awesome, then I have no further criticisms.
4. Now, if the presentation was an indication of the speed with which combat will play out, I would just want to recommend considering slowing it down just a bit. I think if you balance the idea of fewer, but much more impactful hits with a large 2-hander, it will feel more interesting to the player (where each attack has more meaning), rather than constant spamming of attacks and not considering their impact & importance.
5. Lastly, I want to say that I love the death animation of the little rocks as they got knocked-back and scattered to pieces. Very nice. More of this, please.
To answer Steven asking if this is in the right direction: YES (x100)
As for improvement,
-cleaving with the greatsword is a nice touch, but cleaving with the daggers seemed a little silly reach-wise. If all melee weapons can cleave and it seems the biggest sword does the biggest damage at the same speed, what's to stop everyone from having to run a greatsword due to "best in slot?"
-Every weapon's movespeed being the same is weird, but that could be a design choice I get used to. A simple patch to this is adding a speed modifier to every weapon, or changing the walking animations (ONLY while your weapon is drawn) so that the animation FEELS slower but isn't actually any slower. Apex Legends does this really well where some of it's legends seem to move slower but they all are just as agile as the others. To me, a 15 pound daggers and a 80 pound sword shouldn't hinder your movement the same.
Super happy to see the direction of the game
---
Overall the systems at play to give weapons visible weight are doing their jobs well. As a base the, timings on the heavy weapon swings felt good and impactful.
I like the visual data VFX provide, giving a nice power to the swings. The effects themselves might be a bit harsh, and being able to adjust intensity on a personalization level might allow players to dial in a visual style for them.
The block definitely needs more reactive representation when hit, with just audio and VFX, the impact is nearly completely lost.
Camera effects are a nice way to subtly add in weight an impact, again being able to control the strength of these might be nice for a good customization into how impactful combat feels.
~~~
At this point in my write up something felt wrong about the animations to me, specifically hit 3 on the greatsword felt really fast for the type of move it was. I started trying to break it down frame by frame to figure out where it was going wrong, and I inadvertently ended up getting into a bit of how the attacks are handled. This could also be skewed because of the framerate of the vod, but from the footage I have available this is what I've gleaned.
---
For starters each attack is broken down into a few main parts, VFX and character animation. VFX is pretty straightforward, but with character animation you can go a bit more in-depth.
The animations get broken down into a startup, a peak, an impact, and a follow through. The peak is a bit special so we'll get to that later. To explain these, the startup is when you input an attack command, and your character begins to move. During this time there is not an active attack. Think of it as wind up. IRL in this time you are working against the weight of the weapon, obviously its intensified depending on how much weight you are fighting against. The impact is the point of contact during the swing. Follow through is your wind-down, after the active attack has ended.
We also need to understand some constraints the animations are working under. Since attacks are not moving the player, animations cannot disjoint the location of the player. If I recall correctly an early version of combat was working around some attacks pushing you forward with each swing, but the current system is not designed around this. You might be asking yourself "Ok Argo why is this important?" Because of this, certain elements that can provide more impact on attacks are lost, as well as limiting how animations are handled, for the trade off of more player control during attacks. If you were to actually take a large sword, and be doing a big overhead swing like hit 1 of the heavy weapon we were shown, to get the most impact out of it you would lean into the swing and take a step forward, but because we cant move the player forward, we cant take this step. Instead we can offer the illusion of this while keeping the feet landing in the same relative location. When played at full speed it is pretty negligible but all the small things add up. It also helps to understand how the game you are critiquing handles things.
This isn't even the main point I'm trying to make, I just really like talking about game design.
Getting back to it, on an attack startup you are working against the weapons weight, so it comes out a bit slower. This helps build in the momentum of the swing. The peak is where the weight of the weapon is turned in your favor. I couldn't really tell if this happened in the vod, as lower frame rates makes going frame by frame less reliable, but this is the point where the attack "starts". Somewhere after this, the VFX begin, completely separate from the attack animation. When the attack reaches the enemy we reach impact.
Impact affects the character animation in a neat way, the animation that is normally on a fixed motion will actually just pause for a few frames, giving a sort of resistance effect. This actually reads pretty well full speed, contributing to the overall impact focus that the combat showcase was building up. It does however cause a few problems. Since the attack and VFX aren't linked, they become disjointed. To handle this the character animation can just jump forward the frames it was paused but now there is a sort of choppiness to the attack.
I think the snap is the most jarring part here, you can also see the visual disjoint on attack to VFX
I honestly don't know if I have a reasonable solution to this but an interesting idea to mess around with could be smear frames. The VFX already kind of does this with motion blur/distortion, but the end effect is still a bit jarring. Applying some of this to the moving parts of the character and not just the weapon might create a more reasonable effect, but I am not really sure how this would be done. To give a character smear, you would have to take into consideration armor color, model shape, etc. And I do not have that experience, but its an idea nonetheless.
---
I have some other things to say about the current melee combat but this write up is getting a bit long so I might make a separate post talking about various ideas and misc things. If not other ideas should be near the bottom.
Text
---
I loved hearing about the customization options for damage numbers. Overall I think the readability is pretty decent although I would love to be able to change the float speed/distance of the numbers. Being able to change gap size between outgoing and incoming damage would also be very nice.
If you want to get really nitty gritty, for incoming damage having a threshold based on a % of hp done in a single attack act as a modifier would be really cool. Lets say you can set up a threshold for 20% of hp that will modify text size to be bigger, color to be changed, and font to be different. This could be used for players to set up very easily readable threat identification without having to look away from center screen to an hp bar or anything like that.
Having multi hit attacks do stacking numbers would also be a nice touch.
Misc
---
Wake-up animations being uniform upon entering combat with a group pulls away from some of the immersion, simply giving wakeup animation variations in its speed, or starting point can go a long ways to building more immersion. Of course you don't want this to heavily affect the time it takes between the first and last enemy to reach you.
The hit 1 ground decal felt just a bit too big to me, although that might just be personal preference.
I did have more combat system feedback and suggestions but I think some of those are too in-depth for this comment, its already long enough as is. I might do a write up sometime soon but life got me a bit busy...
I love the combat update and the direction you are taking! Some people seem to think that no useful feedback can be given based off the "limited" things we saw, however I very much disagree and think there is plenty to touch on that is absolutely valuable feedback. While we cannot yet have a good idea of how the combat will be as a whole by only seeing one piece of the puzzle (especially considering it will be hybrid combat), we can still look at what we have seen individually and provide feedback on that independently.
• The animations for the heavy attacks look great and seem to flow fairly well together, and the speed and intended weight behind them looks good. I personally like combat animations that flow and look cohesive rather than chopping and cutting between animations for each attack, so I am happy with how the heavy attacks were animated.
• I liked the style of the light weapon animations for the dual daggers, as well as the slightly crouched over stance that gives character to the use of the weapons.
• Some of the animations for the dual daggers in particular do look a bit choppy/instantaneous. This is understandable since you are obviously going to be more agile using light weapons and attack with them more quickly, but it does seem just a little bit too instantaneous to me, mostly when basic attacking in rapid succession. So perhaps that could do with a little bit of smoothing out just to make it flow better between successive attacks. However, if that quick cutting for light attacks is the desired style then I don't mind too much, just a minor preference thing.
• The split body animations look much better than they used to, the foot placement and animation of the legs while moving in different directions during attacks is looking very natural now.
• As much as it can be hard to get a proper feel for the responsiveness of the attacks just from watching rather than playing, they did seem responsive on the stream and I can't wait to be able to try it out in game.
VFX:
• For the VFX, I like the colors used in the attacks and the wind effects when using the spinning ability is a nice touch. Other details like the implementation of impact decals from swinging and hitting the ground are great and the timing of the decals appearing is spot on with the animations and sounds.
• Some of the VFX for the heavy attacks is a bit blindingly bright. The third swing on the attack chain (long sweeping right to left attack) was like a mini flashbang, and particularly the hammer ability at certain zoom levels was blinding since it swings back towards the camera and a large bright yellow hammer quickly covers the whole screen for a moment then disappears. Perhaps a slightly more gradual sweep of light that is a little less intense could be better for the basic attack rather than a very fast appearing and fast disappearing bright flash in the middle of a swing. Maybe I just have sensitive eyes though, but was a little bit jarring at times even after re-watching in a lit room. I imagine there will likely be settings to adjust that sort of thing anyway but thought I would mention it regardless.
• The VFX for the light attacks looks great; I love the grayscale trails left by the daggers.
• I do wonder: Will the color or effects of those swipe trails vary for different daggers (and other weapons) or will these effects will be universal for each weapon type regardless of theme, rarity etc. of the weapon or augments?
SFX:
• The direction taken with the SFX is promising, the heavy attacks sound chonky and impactful which is great to make the weapon feel like it really is a heavy weapon. It's always unsatisfying when you have a badass heavy weapon that doesn't even sound like it's hitting hard, so I'm glad that's not the case. And the same thing with the light attack SFX, it was what I would typically expect from daggers and was good. Looking forward to hearing how more abilities and the different ranged attacks sound.
OVERALL:
In comparison to the previous combat we saw a year ago, it looks great so far and I am excited to see the progress that has been made in other areas of the combat; particularly the abilities and their augments, as well as ranged attacks. I hope that once we see more pieces of the combat puzzle and can start piecing it all together to get an idea on what combat will look and play like as a whole that it all fits and works well together to create a fun combat experience. I like what I have seen so far and whichever way you go with the combat, whether it's continuing in this same direction or making some changes, as long as it's fun and rewarding I will be happy.
• I love them!
• The way they are hidden within the environment is great and I would absolutely love to see more of that kind of thinking implemented for mobs and their placement in the world. It makes the world feel more truly alive and as a whole, and gives easily identifiable visual purpose and meaning to the mobs rather than having a world with mobs simply scattered around. So big plus for that
• I love the noises they make when they start to form themselves, warning you that you have just gotten too close and disturbed something, and the way they piece together and then rush or roll towards you is great. The rolling animation and speed of travel seemed to not match up perfectly at times but I'm being really picky, overall I loved it and I liked the different size variants too.
• I also absolutely love the satisfying way they break apart and die, with rocks flying back after a strong hit. Those kinds of details make combat feel more alive and death animations and effects in particular are pretty important to make killing mobs more satisfying and enjoyable so I liked seeing that kind of detail and hope to see more like that in the future.
ABOUT MASS MOB FARMING AND AOE:
I have seen quite a few people talk about how they don't want Ashes to just be masses of mobs that you group aggro and then mindlessly AoE down after what they saw with the battle against the rock creatures. While I definitely agree with this and very much prefer having more thoughtful battles against lesser amounts of more difficult mobs, I don't want to generalize or make an assumption that Ashes will be that way based off one showcase of a particular creature and their environment, plus we don't know how strong they really were since Steven has God powers. And while I agree with that concern I do also like the idea of some mobs being horde/pack oriented if it suits their design, so if that is the case with these rock creatures then I am all for it! I think a good mix between different types of encounters is good for variety. Some being very difficult individual mobs, and others being weaker on their own but strong by working and grouping together; sometimes just by having more numbers, but I would also love to see mobs that work together in smarter ways. I'm sure you have plenty of great ideas for all kinds of different mobs though!
OTHER THINGS:
• The "Dread Crawler" looks great. Love seeing the creativity with the double tongues and tail pincers, and I can't wait to see what kind of mechanics the boss has.
• The "Mantle Of Radiant Grove" armor and weapon set looks very nice, I love those kinds of ornate designs on armor, and having the leaves adjust based on season (or having different looking sets for different biomes/seasons) is something I'm all for
For feed back... I know its still a WIP and I am sure these have already crossed your minds but I would just like to list them out to get them out.
First and foremost, I am an auto attacker, I love abilities, but nothing gets my blood pumping harder then a badass with a badass sword hacking and slashing his way through the mess of enemies. I will say, that the attacks seem redundant. Of course you cant have unlimited combinations or variations as that is just... too much work. But.. just stick with me here.. What if you could make a system... that prevented the needless redundancy of the same 3/4 sword swing animations?
I am not a mastermind, nor am I a genius so my idea is probably lackluster in comparison to what you guys are capable of. This is just me hoping my small idea sparks the professionals minds in the right direction.
When you first pick up a sword... You are a noob. You suck. The sword sucks. You wont be able to do much unless you swing it around, get some practice and get the hang of things. Lets just call this, Mastery. The more you swing, the more you master your weapon.
This mastery allows you to brush up your sword skills, making your clumsy attacks into more polished, refined sword strokes. Faster, more power and more versatile. Mastering your sword allows you to chain your attacks better, making them seamlessly flow together like a dancing leaf in the wind, instead of just... stopping and resetting the animations. and as you learn, you learn more combinations, and in variations it may randomize and switch up so its not in the same order... upper slash to side slash to a half spin into a downward thrust, or perhaps a side slash into a downward slash into a full spin slashing upwards... just giving it some variation so it doesn't feel so.. linear.
The second idea would be as you rank up your mastery levels, maybe you can go to different sword masters, each having their own sword styles, allowing you to choose the ones you like the most. Having multiple masters per mastery, so people don't feel limited. But also trying to avoid a -meta- where everyone strives for the same sword style. Pick the style that suits you best.
- that's it for the swinging anyways next up is the impact.
of course I'm sure you have seen this in previous comments, but the sword weight is there, and it is fabulous. but the impact it has on the environment is heavier then the impact it has on the target you are hitting. There needs to be some resistance or even some recoil, If you are cutting into an enemy, with ease a limb should fly off. But if you are chipping off a giant stone golem, your sword should deflect, or.. if it doesn't deflect at least maybe slow down slightly as you force it through, giving the golem a good jolt, or shock showing the physical impact. Otherwise it just feels like the blade is simply just passing through. (which I guess is normal for most games)
and last but not least, the first thing i noticed, the idle animations / running animations with the giant sword, it really doesn't feel as if you are holding something that massive... Now I don't expect you to run slower or whatever, but if you are standing still no one is gonna just be holding up that giant hunk of metal. I would stab it into the ground in front of me or have it in my hand with the tip pointed on the ground. Now I get that were buff bad asses here and weight means nothing, but I'm just saying there are cooler ways to carry a badass great sword. If we can run fast as hell the sword would probably look more intimidating if it was kept low and off to the side, instead of just being held straight up, or if your strafing left to right the sword would drop from one side to the other to act as a counter balance for your movement, it wouldn't just be stationary like that in the video.
I really love the impact that it has with the environment, slamming it into the ground, cutting crescents in the ground as you swing, leaving trenches and craters. It feels really good.
All in all I rate the progress a 20 out of 10 just hope to see some more variety in the idle animations, running animations, and attacking animations!
1. What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
- I feel these basic melee attacks that adhere to the spectrum of Agency vs Weight is a really good system that not only succeeds on both fronts but also sets a good range for variability to build out from. Its not just about using a greatsword that looks and sounds like a greatsword but its also about how it feels. If the weapons can live on this spectrum then I think youve succeeded at making them feel how theyre supposed to feel. I like that there will be that asymmetry from a gameplay perspective too. You cant just swing a heavy sword around with the same fidelity as a dagger, so the asymmetry is justified using your system. Its a give and take and I think you've done well. Also Steven and the dev on the stream talking about the footwork, and the directional animations is a big deal. Those little things make a big difference in the feel.
2. Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?- Yes I think the sounds and effects that are environment/material specific will need to be consistently fleshed out. However the Agency vs Weight aspect was more important to establish first. Now that youve done that you can keep adding more to the effects and sounds.
3. Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?- The Soulsborne genre is always a fantastic example of weightiness for those massive weapons. That level of weight, like in DS3 or Elden Ring, is probably the highest threshold where agency is removed, but a good example to draw from. Even just the wind sound effect of a massive sword or axe displacing the air around it just adds to the awesomeness and the power of these moves.
4. Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?Still want to see range / magic / heals and general ranged targeting stuff and the GCD timer, but if this is melee combat basic attack and we are supposed to weave in skills while clicking noobs like this, I'm already sold. Keep up the good work team, you got the start of something really special here.
- The last thing I want to see is a Wizard/Mage class using a great sword as efficiently as a Warrior. Efficiency could mean many things but if the aim is not to restrict classes to a specific weapon family of choice, then there should be some sort of a system that punishes a Mage for using a great sword in a way that is more severe than it punishes a warrior; that could be through:
- Movement speed penalty
- Damage reduction for magic attacks
- Extra cost of resources when casting spells
- Longer cooldowns.
The list can go on. The most important thing is that I don't want the whole world to be specced to use GREAT SWORD OF THE ANGUISHED VANQUISHERS and STAFF OF PIERCING THOUGHTS.
Yes, those are imaginary items.
Cheers,
I think the combat is about 80% great!
What aspects of basic melee weapon attacks are important to you?
-Impact - attacks must feel like I am actually hitting the creature...this usually comes in the form of sound effects and mob reaction to my hit (a little nudge, and a impact animation)
-Fluidity - I think it's very important for the general flow to feel like there is a complete swing/stab
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks?
-Yes. I'm not sure of the early stages of development are what's causing this, but it felt like half the animation was missing. Someone made a comment on reddit where they said it looked like there was a split second of lag with each 2-handed swing. I have to agree. It looked choppy, and felt like it lacked a full swing animation. This feels like an animation I would expect from a street fighter or Asian MMO game. I do not think it matches the aesthetic of the game very well and does not look good
-I also believe there is too much animation effects - they are too flashy. It almost appears as you are swinging weapons with enchantments on them. Secondly, the impact and swing animations effects appear cartoonish. A possible resolution is to scale them down, are add a lot more transparency to this. It reminds me, as it stands now, of a comic book impact animation "BAM!" or "POW!".
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that are done well?
-Yes. There are plenty of games with good melee attacks, but the forefront goes to Overwatch melee - specifically, the Reinhardt hammer swing, and Winston melee. These are both slow, meaningful, impactful-feeling melees. The basic melee in OW would not be a good example as they are typically too fast, which is what I don't like about the preview's melee. As mentione before, I think the animations are too choppy
Is there anything in particular you are excited or concerned about regarding what was show in the basic melee weapon attacks?
-Firstly, I think it looks 80% good. It would not break the game for me, but again, it feels like a different style than what I think a lot of people are expecting and want with AoC. If we just make the swings feel a bit more whole, and not so instantaneous, I think it would be, dare I say, "perfect".
-I was excisted to see the pace is high and very entertaining.
Thank you for reading. I hope the point I am trying to make comes across clearly.
Weight
Fluidity
Impactfulness
Skill expression (E.G dodging and using attacks faster than your enemy)
Integration with Abilities in a meaningful way so as to not make basic weapon attacks redundant or "filler". E.G, basic weapon attacks being the fuel for powerful abilities rather than being used during "CD Downtime".
Firstly, I'd like to start by saying that this direction is exactly what I'd hoped you would move toward following the feeling I got from A1.
The weight & fluidity combined with animation driven strikes, VFX and sound all made me very confident for the future of the combat in AOC.
It's looks on the surface of things to get that "grip" on the "float" that we experienced in the A1 iteration and I think you're doing a stellar job. I really liked the comparative weight difference between the daggers and the 2h sword, in my head it gives me a "this could prove for some very interesting skill expression" thought and as I am one of the "give action combat a chance" crowd this is exactly what I wanted to see, I've played many action & tab combat games and loved both versions, however the style that has always kept me heavily engaged in my approach or combos is action combat. I mean we saw a glimpse of this from the stream, Steven was repositioning himself using teleports in order to position is aoe ban hammer. Tab has been king for a long time, but no king rules forever am I right? I just personally find having a single style of combat gets a bit "mindless", I think it's why I found demon Hunter in wow the most engaging class in tab combat, because the majority of their abilities are aoe, dashes or directionally aimed. MMOs in my personal opinion just haven't found that "sweet spot" yet and I cannot wait to test AOC A2....it's my belief you guys are going to hit that spot!!
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
Honestly at this stage I don't think there's anything missing as I wasn't sure of the exact direction coming off the back of A1, I'm just extremely happy to see the direction for the melee weapon attacks finally emerge in a state that shows me that the combat is going to be engaging. I CANNOT WAIT to see more abilities incorporated with these weapon attacks.
Are there types of basic melee weapon attacks in other games that you feel are done well? If so, in what ways?
Kena:Bridge of Spirits (Highly Underrated for both Melee & Ranged, recommend to anyone reading this)
God of War
Dragons Dogma (Ranged combat in this is also very very good)
Horizon Zero Dawn
Zelda: BOTW
Genshin Impact (Don't...okay...just play it)
Is there anything in particular you’re excited or concerned about regarding what was shown with basic melee weapon attacks?
Super excited to see the transition between basic attacks and "abilities" and how these will interact with eachother. I am also particularly excited to see ranged combat, wands / bows after this look into the melee combat. I have very few concerns at this point, I'm just going to wait patiently to see more & hopefully test in the coming months!
I was watching in full screen, pretending it's a game, and I started to feel motion sick. I can't put my finger on as to why. I don't think it's the animation effects. I think it might be the camera motion, or the fact that everything "graphics wise" is REALLY sharp and it's causing my brain to have a melt down.
When Steve moves the camera my brain is telling me there are micro judders, which feels like screen tearing. Being zoomed out does improve the issue, but it's still an issue. Maybe it's just me, but to counter the motion sickness I normally have to add a layer over the game that blurs the graphics slightly, smoothing them out, which then stops the motion sickness.
I'm hoping it's just a video problem and being in the game doesn't cause this effect. Other than that, I neither like nor dislike the combat. It's a hybrid of tab target and free camera, but we didn't see the tab targeting. I personally think the speed of the swings are too fast, but that's personal preference. I would love a tab target, auto attack system as I don't like having to click to attack. Also, I really dislike the 1, 2, 3, hit combo. Just normal auto attacks with weight are much better. Normally this is the type of play style I try to avoid, but I also enjoyed New World, so who knows?
It's still very early days. As I said, the motion sickness may be a YouTube / video issue. It could be a UI thing. Clearly the team weren't ready to show the UI, but the UI is normally a visual anchor for my eyes. Kinda like driving a car, compared to being the passenger.
Regardless, the game looks amazing. Keep up the good work and I'll see you in A2.
EDIT: I worked it out. Due to there being no UI, I'm focused on the swings. There are indeed missing animations, but this looks intentional (or just A2). Going from one animation to another has not been "smoothed". If you watch the shoulders closesly you will see it jutters from one animation to another, and some swings have been designed to "Hard cut" from one to another. Due the to body not flowing, my eyes cannot follow. When you hard cut, the shoulders move location completely, resulting in my "Anchor" being lost. This is why I get the feeling of motion sickness.
Unfortunaly, due to speed of the weapon, it's going to be tough to smooth out the shoulders and animations without slowing down the whole weapon. Personally, I would like to see the swing speed slowed down. If you could focus on the body fluidity, it would help with my motion sickness.
Edit 2: it's also the camera... why is there a pulse on the camera when the weapon hits? I know it's there to add weight, but it's also vomit inducing
Other then that I think you guys are doing awesome job
The weapon swings look natural and the mix of player agency and limitations from your weapon swings are very will done.
The animations for the weapons look smooth and seemless
Improvements:
The player movement animations look a little choppy - having the body flow while swinging makes the player feel more immersed in the combat overall
The light particles when swinging a basic weapon should be uniform - my suggestion: Magical weapons should have a colored light particle array(as you have on the greatsword) and basic non-magical weapons should have a light gray/silver array(daggers) a mix of the two can be confusing and not very intuitive.
Having the weapon interact with the mob Either via monster stagger or physical obstruction from the monster would be better. (I know the iterations of this is to many to count and trying to provide this for every material a wep interacts with is not very feasible) just something to think about -
Id love to see what your team thinks and what they can come up with.
Overall, This is very impressive for a game being in alpha stage - and the feedback/community interaction you guys have is refreshing to say the least. Keep it up! Looking forward to testing the game for you
- Basic attack flashiness should be reduced. The point of basic attacks is to be basic. Make that yellow flash something like the dagger effect.
Also a side note, I paused randomly while Steven swung heavy sword and noticed that the little flash when an enemy is hit by the basic attack appears way too fast, like you hit the button and the flash appears while your still beginning to swing. I feel like it should have a very slight subtle delay so you can translate that swing timing better.
- Whenever you get hit there should be a subtle animation on the characters so you get to feel the impact of the hits.
- I feel like the heavy sword animations are either too fast at one point in the swings or missing a frame I don't really get what makes it look like that. Dagger is fine tho.
- I'd also like to see better sound effects on the hits, it plays a major part in how satisfying combat is. Imo right now they lack impact.
Overall moving in a great direction. Keep it up!
Its really hard to give feedback on combat without actually being in combat playing but here we go…
Basic Attacks & Animation: Blocking is awesome, I LOVE that it was taken into account because I totally forgot about it. The windup looks critically awesome but the speed of the actual attack looks to follow through a bit fast possibly. Maybe this feels better to play though(???). Other than that the body animations looked great and so fluid even in its early stage. The whole thing where animation depends on movement direction is so cool.
Weight & Impact: I’m gonna need to wait for alpha 2 to really judge this one, but from a viewer perspective it looks like you guys are absolutely on the correct path. Overall, SUCH a great implement from the last demo.
VFX: The effects for the basic attack swing on the 2H looks a bit excessive while the daggers look great. The yellow lighting and sparks from the 2H sword swinging just does not look “basic” for a basic attack to me. The 2h weapon leaving marks on the environment while swinging was so cool.
Customization of Text: Not much to add here. It looks great and I cant really think of much more customization I’d like to have. The general style of it I like, it seems prominent enough to ingest the hit data, yet minimal enough to not be a focal point.
Monsters & Environment: I love where you don’t always know where the danger could be and there are not always pre-spawned NPC’s everywhere polluting the environment. It would make a player perform a risk assessment if traveling off the beaten path in an area like this because you don’t know if 2 or 5 enemies will appear. 10/10 on this direction and idea.
I’m a software engineer but certainly not a game developer. I really like how the developers discuss at times how they structured or created a feature programmatically. You can really tell when developers seem to enjoy working with the codebase which is a fantastic sign this “late” in the development stage.
10/10 monthly update and THE RIGHT DIRECTION. So long as it does not get moved towards a BDO korean-y action combat direction I'm fine with everything so far.
The daggers look good! The only comment I could give could be to dial the blur down some and remove the white colour fill in the blur to add a bit more subtlety to the strikes. Maybe the speed on these could even be taken down a bit too, I know they are meant to be fast as daggers but I think it still could slow down a bit. I love the NPCs in this game they look awesome.
The overall movement still feels too floaty, like when players jump, land, and change direction there isn't a convincing feeling of weight and momentum. Especially considering they will be wearing armour and carrying gear.
Overall this game looks awesome and I can't wait to play it! Char art looks INCREDIBLE!!
Now, about the combat, I do believe this showed up the fact AoC is getting some kind of uniqueness, not like remaking the wheel but using in its own way if that make sense. Also, even if there is still work that needs to be done so this base combat showed can be call "ready to go", for sure its a good starting point.
Do you feel anything is missing from the basic melee weapon attacks we’ve shared so far?
You're doing an awesome job guys! keep it going!