I tried to look for a good video, but every other video has them clicking skills with their mouse and being overall shit at targeting and stuff. Really wish I made some videos back when I was still playing.
Here's a vid that at least shows the speed of casting and roughly 85% of the skills on the bar that I used. This is a more magey build of this class, while I went for phys+mage which added a few more skills to the cycle. And on the rewatch of this vid, I think the part where the dude manually clicks skills it's just someone else playing, because the layout is completely different, so that other player might not be used to the skill bar yet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIxubnfGF-s
On top of all the skill usage I'd be constantly spamming space to eat some health bottles, so that would bump the apm, but not really meaningfully.
That seems to get quite high when movement is actually required.
Looks close to 90-100 base though? Which implies it rises by the standard... 20ish when in an area when you have to look out for enemies? (Is it 20ish for everyone else? Camera spins and other checks? I think I'm pretty bad at this because I'm not good at shooters, for example)
I'd agree it leaves more room to create more difficult content for players.
I'd agree there would be more tools in hand for developers to use in creating more dynamic content
I'd agree it be designed with the players action and mobility in mind to not be overwhelming but using their tools to create more types of fun experience as possible.
Now you are understanding my point.
As I have been saying for actually longer than you have been on these forums, action is probably better all around for solo, for small group and for PvP. Especially in PvP, it actually creates more variety than tab target creates in PvP.
However, when it comes to top end, when we are talking about having an actual raiding scene that requires many encounters over a period of time, encounters that need to be materially different from each other mechanics wise, action combat simply can not hold a candle to tab.
What are you saying, im saying action combat can do all of those encounters?
But can PLAYERS actually BEAT them while retaining the parts that make it 'Action'?
Because if it 'changes from Action-like to Tab-like' at the highest levels and everyone's okay with that, then it sounds like everything will be great.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'd agree it leaves more room to create more difficult content for players.
I'd agree there would be more tools in hand for developers to use in creating more dynamic content
I'd agree it be designed with the players action and mobility in mind to not be overwhelming but using their tools to create more types of fun experience as possible.
Now you are understanding my point.
As I have been saying for actually longer than you have been on these forums, action is probably better all around for solo, for small group and for PvP. Especially in PvP, it actually creates more variety than tab target creates in PvP.
However, when it comes to top end, when we are talking about having an actual raiding scene that requires many encounters over a period of time, encounters that need to be materially different from each other mechanics wise, action combat simply can not hold a candle to tab.
What are you saying, im saying action combat can do all of those encounters?
But can PLAYERS actually BEAT them while retaining the parts that make it 'Action'?
What does this mean?
Tab and action are ability delivery system. It's has been clearly stated as such. If you are arguing anything else then you are being confusing and aren't arguing for what you want.
The highest levels would be heavy mechanics with the need to dodge though. It be that .05% of content for people to do wanting a very hard challenge.
I've said it before ill say it again this is hybrid looking at things as action or tab is not the way. What makes past mmorpgs great with mechanics, how can dodging and mobility be used to enhance that experience, how can that be used to create a large verity of experience while being balanced so most players can enjoy it. That will lead to the best game.
If you wanted me to sit down and concept a really complex boss involving lots of mechs, and action dodging elements that is within reason for a player it be a easy task for me.
This is a really dumb take, BDO and Lost ark, for example, have generally some of the best combat out there do you think the combat is the reason those games may lose player base? NO, it's because games like those have become major p2w shitholes the only thing that actually kept them alive this long is the fact that they have good combat. But take a game like WOW it's also been dying really hard for the last several years "biggest mmo in history" and why it has the glorious Tabbed combat. The point is it's not action or tab that causes a game to not have longevity it's content and systems that change over time.
Like i said, its not only becouse of action combat, but part of it.
And people go back to the games they are familiar with, which are tab target games.
I like Lost Ark combat, but thats an ARPG so not really the same.
Ive seen alot of people getting overwhelmed by BDO combat.
And even worse example would be Blade and Sword.
That shitty combat required you to to be a master pianoplayer to be competative in PvP.
I'd agree it leaves more room to create more difficult content for players.
I'd agree there would be more tools in hand for developers to use in creating more dynamic content
I'd agree it be designed with the players action and mobility in mind to not be overwhelming but using their tools to create more types of fun experience as possible.
Now you are understanding my point.
As I have been saying for actually longer than you have been on these forums, action is probably better all around for solo, for small group and for PvP. Especially in PvP, it actually creates more variety than tab target creates in PvP.
However, when it comes to top end, when we are talking about having an actual raiding scene that requires many encounters over a period of time, encounters that need to be materially different from each other mechanics wise, action combat simply can not hold a candle to tab.
What are you saying, im saying action combat can do all of those encounters?
But can PLAYERS actually BEAT them while retaining the parts that make it 'Action'?
What does this mean?
Tab and action are ability delivery system. It's has been clearly stated as such. If you are arguing anything else then you are being confusing and aren't arguing for what you want.
That's my bad, I keep doing that thing where I try to synchronize to what I think someone means instead of what exactly they say, because I find it difficult to have conversations with @Mag7spy otherwise.
If tab combat was as interesting as you claim then rpgs outside of MMOs would use it. They don't. They all use some kind of system that requires aiming. Elden ring and Monster hunter could be considered some of the most popular pve games on the market and use aiming.
Elden ring is a single player game, and Monster Hunter is basicly a single player game aswell.
taking combat directly from a single player game and trying to make it work in an mmorpg never works unfortunally.
I guess I'm the only one? I feel as though people are putting very little thought into the implications of action combat. If it's bad, its really, really bad. Tab targeting is tried and true, and rotations are a pve exclusive thing guys. If you watch some WoW arena (as boring as it is) there is a lot more to interact with. I hope you guys are right on this one. =/
Tried and true is subjective. I can think of the implications of tab too.
Rotations aren’t mechanical skill or acuity, they’re are a tactile-kinesthetic memorization of a sequence. It’s not difficult to pull off.
PvE is one component of Ashes with PvP guaranteed to balance that scale.
too much reliance on the paper sheet is already detrimental to a games success, but then you add the safety of never missing your shots removes too much of the risk vs reward factor.
When players are talking about action combat vs tab combat, we are talking about the entire combat system, not just the delivery.
Sure, tab target is named after it's deliver system, but the term refers to the whole combat system.
If you are talking about JUST the delivery, you are essentially having that conversation on your own - because the rest of us are talking about the whole system.
And yes, I will repeat this every time you say it is just the delivery system that we are talking about.
What are you saying, im saying action combat can do all of those encounters?
Oh, so are you saying that action combat doesn't ask more of players than tab?
You are missing the point, depending on how an encounter is designed you can vary the level of need to dodge a enemy based on what you want. Else its just you attacking a mob with a bit more flow and feel to your skills over tab target. Encounter to encounter you design how much reason for mobility you want the player to have, and at what points.
Ie all below relating to action combat
1.Mob doesn't move much no effects to dodge, very low difficulty
2. Mob doesn't move effects to dodge, very low difficulty
3. Mob moves, effects to dodge low difficulty
4. Mob moves effects to dodge and mechs to worry about, low difficulty
5. Mob doesn't move stronger mechs to worry about low difficult
6. Mob doesn't move high effects to dodge, advanced mechs, average difficulty
I can make a lot of these small examples but that should be enough to get the point across.
This is a really dumb take, BDO and Lost ark, for example, have generally some of the best combat out there do you think the combat is the reason those games may lose player base? NO, it's because games like those have become major p2w shitholes the only thing that actually kept them alive this long is the fact that they have good combat. But take a game like WOW it's also been dying really hard for the last several years "biggest mmo in history" and why it has the glorious Tabbed combat. The point is it's not action or tab that causes a game to not have longevity it's content and systems that change over time.
No. What you mean is that BDO is fun combat for an MMO Hack & Slash game.
BDO combat is not good combat for a true MMORPG. P2W really has nothing to do with that.
WoW dying has nothing to with the combat. WoW is dying because MMORPGs need to not have an endgame and Blizzard is still relying on that old model (1.xx) instead of making a WoW 2.0.
You are missing the point, depending on how an encounter is designed you can vary the level of need to dodge a enemy based on what you want.
So, in order to make action combat work on encounters that would be natural to tab combat, you need to strip away that action combat. Then, you can approach what tab target can do naturally.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
When players are talking about action combat vs tab combat, we are talking about the entire combat system, not just the delivery.
Sure, tab target is named after it's deliver system, but the term refers to the whole combat system.
If you are talking about JUST the delivery, you are essentially having that conversation on your own - because the rest of us are talking about the whole system.
And yes, I will repeat this every time you say it is just the delivery system that we are talking about.
There is no such thing as a whole "tab combat system".
Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system. Anything else you are associating with the term 'tab' is from your own bias based on the games you have played and has no connection to the term itself.
It has nothing to do with active vs passive defense
it has nothing to do with number of abilities a class has, mechanics attached to those abilities, or the mechanics of a boss.
Any of these things that you are associating with tab that aren't related to the delivery system could be implemented in an "action" system.
You are missing the point, depending on how an encounter is designed you can vary the level of need to dodge a enemy based on what you want.
So, in order to make action combat work on encounters that would be natural to tab combat, you need to strip away that action combat. Then, you can approach what tab target can do naturally.
You are still missing the point its about creating the level of difficulty. The same way adding more advanced mech make thing difficult, so does adding more movement skills. That is the main layer of the example I have, you can have mechs to rely on the movement inbetween in phases as well not relating to overall increase of difficulty challenge. All advanced mech but at 60% and 30% dodging certain attacks is involved on a per player basis.
It intends on the developer wants at the end of the day, you can have a low amount of dodges in all content with all the advanced mech in the game as a baseline. Advanced mech and advanced dodging should be views as one and the same in terms of difficulty. Both them relate in design to create challenge for the player, and when both them combine it allows for more variation and difficult content.
Just to point out you like to mention you can have more design related challenge with mechs, movement is also a design related challenge. If you are like I could have two design related challenge, then a movement and design related mech challenge could be on the same level of that.
There is no such thing as a whole "tab combat system".
Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system. Anything else you are associating with the term 'tab' is from your own bias based on the games you have played and has no connection to the term itself.
It has nothing to do with active vs passive defense
it has nothing to do with number of abilities a class has, mechanics attached to those abilities, or the mechanics of a boss.
Any of these things that you are associating with tab that aren't related to the delivery system could be implemented in an "action" system.
When I talk about Tab Target, I'm talking about targeting method, speed of attacks (which are typically comparitively slow) and lack of active Block/Dodge/Parry/Roll. I think other people have stuff related to split-body motion or lack of that feature.
There is no such thing as a whole "tab combat system".
Yes there is.
Tab generally refers to the target system, but players falsely think it also means how a skill behaves on the xyz axis. Asherons Call is a tab game, but the missiles behave like missiles.
ESO has a cross hair, but the skills are fixed and require a target.
Most players don’t actually understand the difference.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That's not really false.
Language is not always literal - and also meaning drifts over time.
Denotation v connotation.
Tab Target is more than just the targeting system.
You are missing the point, depending on how an encounter is designed you can vary the level of need to dodge a enemy based on what you want.
So, in order to make action combat work on encounters that would be natural to tab combat, you need to strip away that action combat. Then, you can approach what tab target can do naturally.
Encounters can be adjusted through AIs design to make tab “feel” more natural.
The reality is tab feels more natural to some, tab to others.
I prefer tab, but I'm always willing to try something new. If I don't like it, I'll play something else, even thought I've followed the development of this game for years.
That seems to get quite high when movement is actually required.
Looks close to 90-100 base though? Which implies it rises by the standard... 20ish when in an area when you have to look out for enemies? (Is it 20ish for everyone else? Camera spins and other checks? I think I'm pretty bad at this because I'm not good at shooters, for example)
Yeah, especially on this class, cause it has 2 blinks so overall mobility is super high (there's a movement speed buff too). And it has an anchor aoe with a short radius around the character, so you always try to look for high value targets to jump on and try anchoring them (anchor is a stun in L2, so it's a very powerful skill), but the class itself is fairly squishy so you want to keep distance from burst characters, so you're constantly moving, constantly spinning your camera to know your surroundings and second-to-second enemy movements/positioning, on top of using all those abilities (cause there's utility and dps in there) - all of that shoots your apm by a ton in bigger fights.
And all of that is usually happening very quickly because ttk is quite short (this video showed overboosted chars with full buffs and just 1v1, so it was quite slow comparatively).
You are still missing the point its about creating the level of difficulty. The same way adding more advanced mech make thing difficult, so does adding more movement skills.
But this isn't unique to action combat.
Tab target games also require players to avoid attacks.
I mean, you can't say "this specific thing is what makes action better than tab" if that thing is in both action and tab. That is what you are doing.
Same with just general movement. One encounter that jumps out to me had sections of the floor falling every few seconds, requiring players to take note of the ground around them, and reposition themselves often.
This is my point though, all of these things can be ADDED to an encounter that ADD to tab target. In order to have that much on an encounter in an action game, the developers first need to REMOVE something from the action combat - and players generally don't like it when developers take things away from them.
Tab target in isolation refers to the targeting system. Tab vs aimed.
When the discussion is tab target vs action combat though, it is a broader discussion than just the aiming. It encapsulates the entire combat system and the differences that are generally associated with each.
As much as i'm big a fan of Action combat, i really have nothing against tab target, Wow combat is an example, they have tap target but most of classes they have AOE as well.
I think Tab target is a bad idea for an open world mmo, cause of the aggro, you ll always have to slow down and not take risks, and usually tab traget combat is more efficient for long range classes,
I d suggest that you keep yourself updated and let s wait and see how AOC is going to pull it off, i hope the game can be a fit for everyone, to me personally i m a fan of the project, and whatever course they choose from now on, i'd still play the game, i 'd even enjoy it even more if they go the direction of Action combat. cause literally there is no really other good mmo that i can invest my time in. Cheers
You are still missing the point its about creating the level of difficulty. The same way adding more advanced mech make thing difficult, so does adding more movement skills.
But this isn't unique to action combat.
Tab target games also require players to avoid attacks.
I mean, you can't say "this specific thing is what makes action better than tab" if that thing is in both action and tab. That is what you are doing.
Same with just general movement. One encounter that jumps out to me had sections of the floor falling every few seconds, requiring players to take note of the ground around them, and reposition themselves often.
This is my point though, all of these things can be ADDED to an encounter that ADD to tab target. In order to have that much on an encounter in an action game, the developers first need to REMOVE something from the action combat - and players generally don't like it when developers take things away from them.
If we look at a tab target game and look at any mmo that has action movements in it we would be able to easily see a pretty big difference between tab target dodging and action based dodging.
If we look at a tab target game and look at any mmo that has action movements in it we would be able to easily see a pretty big difference between tab target dodging and action based dodging.
Yeah, but the difference is animation, not player interaction.
In terms of player interaction (perceiving an attack, then activating a defense), they are virtually identical.
If you think there is a big difference, then I am wondering if all you are really talking about is the visuals of the game, and not the actual mechanics and player interaction. This is a very common thing for people to do - people often even complain that a class or ability isn't balanced properly, when all they mean is that the ability doesn't look and/or feel impactful enough for them - the actual balance is often fine (Margret commented about exactly this on a stream a while ago).
If we look at a tab target game and look at any mmo that has action movements in it we would be able to easily see a pretty big difference between tab target dodging and action based dodging.
Yeah, but the difference is animation, not player interaction.
In terms of player interaction (perceiving an attack, then activating a defense), they are virtually identical.
If you think there is a big difference, then I am wondering if all you are really talking about is the visuals of the game, and not the actual mechanics and player interaction. This is a very common thing for people to do - people often even complain that a class or ability isn't balanced properly, when all they mean is that the ability doesn't look and/or feel impactful enough for them - the actual balance is often fine (Margret commented about exactly this on a stream a while ago).
Honestly feel we are just going to go back and forth on this, I can show example but I see no example on dodging given to me in any tab target mmos with dodging / mobility skills. You couldn't even dodge in city of heroes with super jump since tab target everything is locking onto you by default and hitting you still.
Comments
That seems to get quite high when movement is actually required.
Looks close to 90-100 base though? Which implies it rises by the standard... 20ish when in an area when you have to look out for enemies? (Is it 20ish for everyone else? Camera spins and other checks? I think I'm pretty bad at this because I'm not good at shooters, for example)
But can PLAYERS actually BEAT them while retaining the parts that make it 'Action'?
Because if it 'changes from Action-like to Tab-like' at the highest levels and everyone's okay with that, then it sounds like everything will be great.
Tab and action are ability delivery system. It's has been clearly stated as such. If you are arguing anything else then you are being confusing and aren't arguing for what you want.
I've said it before ill say it again this is hybrid looking at things as action or tab is not the way. What makes past mmorpgs great with mechanics, how can dodging and mobility be used to enhance that experience, how can that be used to create a large verity of experience while being balanced so most players can enjoy it. That will lead to the best game.
If you wanted me to sit down and concept a really complex boss involving lots of mechs, and action dodging elements that is within reason for a player it be a easy task for me.
Like i said, its not only becouse of action combat, but part of it.
And people go back to the games they are familiar with, which are tab target games.
I like Lost Ark combat, but thats an ARPG so not really the same.
Ive seen alot of people getting overwhelmed by BDO combat.
And even worse example would be Blade and Sword.
That shitty combat required you to to be a master pianoplayer to be competative in PvP.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
That's my bad, I keep doing that thing where I try to synchronize to what I think someone means instead of what exactly they say, because I find it difficult to have conversations with @Mag7spy otherwise.
~bans herself from forums for the day~
Elden ring is a single player game, and Monster Hunter is basicly a single player game aswell.
taking combat directly from a single player game and trying to make it work in an mmorpg never works unfortunally.
0dbea148-8cb8-4711-ba90-eb0864e93b5f
Tried and true is subjective. I can think of the implications of tab too.
Rotations aren’t mechanical skill or acuity, they’re are a tactile-kinesthetic memorization of a sequence. It’s not difficult to pull off.
PvE is one component of Ashes with PvP guaranteed to balance that scale.
too much reliance on the paper sheet is already detrimental to a games success, but then you add the safety of never missing your shots removes too much of the risk vs reward factor.
When players are talking about action combat vs tab combat, we are talking about the entire combat system, not just the delivery.
Sure, tab target is named after it's deliver system, but the term refers to the whole combat system.
If you are talking about JUST the delivery, you are essentially having that conversation on your own - because the rest of us are talking about the whole system.
And yes, I will repeat this every time you say it is just the delivery system that we are talking about.
You are missing the point, depending on how an encounter is designed you can vary the level of need to dodge a enemy based on what you want. Else its just you attacking a mob with a bit more flow and feel to your skills over tab target. Encounter to encounter you design how much reason for mobility you want the player to have, and at what points.
Ie all below relating to action combat
1.Mob doesn't move much no effects to dodge, very low difficulty
2. Mob doesn't move effects to dodge, very low difficulty
3. Mob moves, effects to dodge low difficulty
4. Mob moves effects to dodge and mechs to worry about, low difficulty
5. Mob doesn't move stronger mechs to worry about low difficult
6. Mob doesn't move high effects to dodge, advanced mechs, average difficulty
I can make a lot of these small examples but that should be enough to get the point across.
BDO combat is not good combat for a true MMORPG. P2W really has nothing to do with that.
WoW dying has nothing to with the combat. WoW is dying because MMORPGs need to not have an endgame and Blizzard is still relying on that old model (1.xx) instead of making a WoW 2.0.
So, in order to make action combat work on encounters that would be natural to tab combat, you need to strip away that action combat. Then, you can approach what tab target can do naturally.
There is no such thing as a whole "tab combat system".
Tab just means the delivery system, it has nothing to do with the rest of the combat system. Anything else you are associating with the term 'tab' is from your own bias based on the games you have played and has no connection to the term itself.
It has nothing to do with active vs passive defense
it has nothing to do with number of abilities a class has, mechanics attached to those abilities, or the mechanics of a boss.
Any of these things that you are associating with tab that aren't related to the delivery system could be implemented in an "action" system.
You are still missing the point its about creating the level of difficulty. The same way adding more advanced mech make thing difficult, so does adding more movement skills. That is the main layer of the example I have, you can have mechs to rely on the movement inbetween in phases as well not relating to overall increase of difficulty challenge. All advanced mech but at 60% and 30% dodging certain attacks is involved on a per player basis.
It intends on the developer wants at the end of the day, you can have a low amount of dodges in all content with all the advanced mech in the game as a baseline. Advanced mech and advanced dodging should be views as one and the same in terms of difficulty. Both them relate in design to create challenge for the player, and when both them combine it allows for more variation and difficult content.
Just to point out you like to mention you can have more design related challenge with mechs, movement is also a design related challenge. If you are like I could have two design related challenge, then a movement and design related mech challenge could be on the same level of that.
Tab generally refers to the target system, but players falsely think it also means how a skill behaves on the xyz axis. Asherons Call is a tab game, but the missiles behave like missiles.
ESO has a cross hair, but the skills are fixed and require a target.
Most players don’t actually understand the difference.
Language is not always literal - and also meaning drifts over time.
Denotation v connotation.
Tab Target is more than just the targeting system.
Encounters can be adjusted through AIs design to make tab “feel” more natural.
The reality is tab feels more natural to some, tab to others.
It’s a pure emotional argument.
And all of that is usually happening very quickly because ttk is quite short (this video showed overboosted chars with full buffs and just 1v1, so it was quite slow comparatively).
Tab target games also require players to avoid attacks.
I mean, you can't say "this specific thing is what makes action better than tab" if that thing is in both action and tab. That is what you are doing.
Same with just general movement. One encounter that jumps out to me had sections of the floor falling every few seconds, requiring players to take note of the ground around them, and reposition themselves often.
This is my point though, all of these things can be ADDED to an encounter that ADD to tab target. In order to have that much on an encounter in an action game, the developers first need to REMOVE something from the action combat - and players generally don't like it when developers take things away from them.
When the discussion is tab target vs action combat though, it is a broader discussion than just the aiming. It encapsulates the entire combat system and the differences that are generally associated with each.
I think Tab target is a bad idea for an open world mmo, cause of the aggro, you ll always have to slow down and not take risks, and usually tab traget combat is more efficient for long range classes,
I d suggest that you keep yourself updated and let s wait and see how AOC is going to pull it off, i hope the game can be a fit for everyone, to me personally i m a fan of the project, and whatever course they choose from now on, i'd still play the game, i 'd even enjoy it even more if they go the direction of Action combat. cause literally there is no really other good mmo that i can invest my time in. Cheers
If we look at a tab target game and look at any mmo that has action movements in it we would be able to easily see a pretty big difference between tab target dodging and action based dodging.
Yeah, but the difference is animation, not player interaction.
In terms of player interaction (perceiving an attack, then activating a defense), they are virtually identical.
If you think there is a big difference, then I am wondering if all you are really talking about is the visuals of the game, and not the actual mechanics and player interaction. This is a very common thing for people to do - people often even complain that a class or ability isn't balanced properly, when all they mean is that the ability doesn't look and/or feel impactful enough for them - the actual balance is often fine (Margret commented about exactly this on a stream a while ago).
Honestly feel we are just going to go back and forth on this, I can show example but I see no example on dodging given to me in any tab target mmos with dodging / mobility skills. You couldn't even dodge in city of heroes with super jump since tab target everything is locking onto you by default and hitting you still.