Again tab target is old and out dated there is nothing special about it, it's for slow paced gameplay.
Did you by chance check out the L2 video I posted for Azherae? It was quite fast. And that was just 1v1 pvp, which is fairly slower than mass pvp, so that's not the limit on tab target mmo speed. And you could get even faster if you wanted to really push the player's reaction speeds.
Not all tab mmos have 10-year-long gcds that slow down combat to a fucking crawl.
Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay.
That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%.
If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.
If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.
Yes, all those old mmos just became hybrids. Just as Ashes will be. So we've come to the proper conclusion of hybrid is the best system and it's great that Intrepid is going for it
These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game.
Actually, the reason *I* wont give examples is because all action combat people want are videos. This tells me they are only concerned with how it looks, not how it plays.
An action combat player, based on my conversations with them over the last few months (as well as playing BDO for a while) would rather a game with a single button press causing your character to back flip over the opponent, backstab them with a dagger, combat roll back between their legs, use their dagger to pin one of the opponents feet to the ground, strafe to the right while pulling out a sword, perform a 520 degree spin while chopping off the opponents head.
Throw in some particle effects, camera shakes, and a weapon trail on the sword, and you'll have action combat players salivating.
A tab target player will look at that and be like - I only pressed one button...
While the above is obviously a slight exaggeration, it is only slight.
Action combat players consider character fluidity and animation to be combat depth. Tab target players consider player interaction to be combat depth.
Since a video simply can not convey the interaction a player has with the character, why would anyone bother linking on if they are talking about player interaction?
I’ve played both action and tab at high levels. Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, Shadowbane, WoW, SWTOR, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, ESO, TERA, GW, GW2, FF14, AION, Rift, ArcheAge, Dragons Prophet, New World, Conquerors Blade..
Im still trying to figure out where you derive your opinions from in regards to combat depth because it must be something I haven’t played.
I’ve never seen an action combat game where you can one button fits all someone. But I *can* one button macro a good portion of the tab games I can much more effectively than the combat games I’ve played.
So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth.
@NiKr something to keep in mind is where on the spectrum they land for hybrid as it will come down to what is best for their game and design without having to recode their entire game to accommodate the "future proofing" of their game without upsetting the fanbase or changing things too drastically.
These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game.
Actually, the reason *I* wont give examples is because all action combat people want are videos. This tells me they are only concerned with how it looks, not how it plays.
An action combat player, based on my conversations with them over the last few months (as well as playing BDO for a while) would rather a game with a single button press causing your character to back flip over the opponent, backstab them with a dagger, combat roll back between their legs, use their dagger to pin one of the opponents feet to the ground, strafe to the right while pulling out a sword, perform a 520 degree spin while chopping off the opponents head.
Throw in some particle effects, camera shakes, and a weapon trail on the sword, and you'll have action combat players salivating.
A tab target player will look at that and be like - I only pressed one button...
While the above is obviously a slight exaggeration, it is only slight.
Action combat players consider character fluidity and animation to be combat depth. Tab target players consider player interaction to be combat depth.
Since a video simply can not convey the interaction a player has with the character, why would anyone bother linking on if they are talking about player interaction?
I’ve played both action and tab at high levels. Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, Shadowbane, WoW, SWTOR, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, ESO, TERA, GW, GW2, FF14, AION, Rift, ArcheAge, Dragons Prophet, New World, Conquerors Blade..
Im still trying to figure out where you derive your opinions from in regards to combat depth because it must be something I haven’t played.
I’ve never seen an action combat game where you can one button fits all someone. But I *can* one button macro a good portion of the tab games I can much more effectively than the combat games I’ve played.
So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth.
These people can't give examples because they don't know anything about action combat, or refuse to admit they want to play a low skill ceiling game.
Actually, the reason *I* wont give examples is because all action combat people want are videos. This tells me they are only concerned with how it looks, not how it plays.
An action combat player, based on my conversations with them over the last few months (as well as playing BDO for a while) would rather a game with a single button press causing your character to back flip over the opponent, backstab them with a dagger, combat roll back between their legs, use their dagger to pin one of the opponents feet to the ground, strafe to the right while pulling out a sword, perform a 520 degree spin while chopping off the opponents head.
Throw in some particle effects, camera shakes, and a weapon trail on the sword, and you'll have action combat players salivating.
A tab target player will look at that and be like - I only pressed one button...
While the above is obviously a slight exaggeration, it is only slight.
Action combat players consider character fluidity and animation to be combat depth. Tab target players consider player interaction to be combat depth.
Since a video simply can not convey the interaction a player has with the character, why would anyone bother linking on if they are talking about player interaction?
I’ve played both action and tab at high levels. Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, Shadowbane, WoW, SWTOR, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, ESO, TERA, GW, GW2, FF14, AION, Rift, ArcheAge, Dragons Prophet, New World, Conquerors Blade..
Im still trying to figure out where you derive your opinions from in regards to combat depth because it must be something I haven’t played.
I’ve never seen an action combat game where you can one button fits all someone. But I *can* one button macro a good portion of the tab games I can much more effectively than the combat games I’ve played.
So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth.
Shadowbane brother here lmao
Awesome, another from the oldschool.
Im thinking people are confusing combat skill, combat intelligence, and combat depth.
See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know.
You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work.
You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out.
You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all.
All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up.
So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth.
EQ2.
If we are going to talk about macro'ing, you can macro an action game just as easily as a tab target game.
What you cant macro is PvP - which action games tend to have more than tab games.
This seems like an odd line for you to take, and you'll note that I specifically said an action game player would like a skill like that, not that action games have them.
So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth.
EQ2.
If we are going to talk about macro'ing, you can macro an action game just as easily as a tab target game.
What you cant macro is PvP - which action games tend to have more than tab games.
This seems like an odd line for you to take, and you'll note that I specifically said an action game player would like a skill like that, not that action games have them.
Well there are no such abilities in any of the action games I’ve played. So I don’t know who you are interacting that wants such an ability.
Conq Blade, TERA have great combat depth; better than most of the MMOs I listed.
But Conq Blade is about the purest form of action you can get.
In a combat game I look to use my skills such as target acquisition and tracking, strafing and counter strafing, movement, (some examples of what’s needed). On top of what’s already required of an MMO. Data dissemination and interpretation, spatial intelligence, etc.
Never played EQ 1 or 2, can’t comment on them.
Truthfully I think most games tab or action are lackluster. Hopefully AoC nails it.
See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know.
You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work.
You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out.
You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all.
All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up.
If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content.
Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason.
You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily.
For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience.
Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction.
Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target.
Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack.
^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience.
See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know.
You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work.
You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out.
You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all.
All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up.
If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content.
Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason.
You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily.
For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience.
Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction.
Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target.
Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack.
^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience.
I've just realized what we should really be saying to you...
According to your own definition, there are nearly no Tab Target games.
EQ2 and Lineage 2 are clearly Action Combat, so there's nothing to really be discussing here.
By your definition, all those great games with good PvE are already Action Combat games and we just have to wait for Intrepid to make another Action Combat game just like them.
Both using the trinity system so you have dps, tanks an healers all that good stuff. People don't need to be running everywhere, but being completely static with all your stuff landing without any skill involved is less engaging. If I'm looking at both games in term of content imo I feel most people would enjoy neverwinter online. Purely action based and doing a raid and not everyone needs to be moving around all over the place every second. But its like I said its action layered on top adding a bit more diversity and of course needing to aim your shots (not that they need to make it that hard)
See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know.
You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work.
You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out.
You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all.
All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up.
If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content.
Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason.
You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily.
For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience.
Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction.
Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target.
Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack.
^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience.
I've just realized what we should really be saying to you...
According to your own definition, there are nearly no Tab Target games.
EQ2 and Lineage 2 are clearly Action Combat, so there's nothing to really be discussing here.
By your definition, all those great games with good PvE are already Action Combat games and we just have to wait for Intrepid to make another Action Combat game just like them.
EQ 2 and L2 are tab target games what are you talking about. If you are talking about my comment earlier I said the trend is leading to action / hybrid but some elemetns added or faked slightly. Example aoe in front over needing to have a mob targeted in swtor.
Both using the trinity system so you have dps, tanks an healers all that good stuff. People don't need to be running everywhere, but being completely static with all your stuff landing without any skill involved is less engaging. If I'm looking at both games in term of content imo I feel most people would enjoy neverwinter online. Purely action based and doing a raid and not everyone needs to be moving around all over the place every second. But its like I said its action layered on top adding a bit more diversity and of course needing to aim your shots (not that they need to make it that hard)
Ok great. Since we already know from the last stream that it will be more like NWO, and you've already clarified that it actually doesn't matter that much if some classes don't move around that much during big fights, it seems like Intrepid is on the right track and we can all hope for a really great Action Combat game.
As long as players:
1. Have to dodge certain boss mechanics by moving.
2. Have to be in the correct range for some abilities and aiming/facing the enemy to correctly use it.
3. Have to pay attention to their spacing for certain abilities or the enemy may dodge them as part of a normal flow.
We will have good Action Combat, and we already know and have experienced all those things in Ashes even on the less powerful encounters. We shouldn't be concerned about if any given player needs to move around so much, as you said, but rather if the core concept of Action Combat is maintained.
Core concepts that most games, even if they offer Tab Targeting, do also have. I'm sure you've played multiple games that don't have those concepts, but I don't think anyone's been actually talking much about any of those games.
I prefer NWO Action Combat more than EQ2 combat, but...
I dunno how you measure who likes what more.
Links to some actual data??
If on the last steam the devs showed something akin to the gameplay in EQ 2 clicking 10 abilities in a rotation over what they actually showed with the more action based attacks. Do you you think people would have said that it was the right direction or be as excited?
Both using the trinity system so you have dps, tanks an healers all that good stuff. People don't need to be running everywhere, but being completely static with all your stuff landing without any skill involved is less engaging. If I'm looking at both games in term of content imo I feel most people would enjoy neverwinter online. Purely action based and doing a raid and not everyone needs to be moving around all over the place every second. But its like I said its action layered on top adding a bit more diversity and of course needing to aim your shots (not that they need to make it that hard)
Ok great. Since we already know from the last stream that it will be more like NWO, and you've already clarified that it actually doesn't matter that much if some classes don't move around that much during big fights, it seems like Intrepid is on the right track and we can all hope for a really great Action Combat game.
As long as players:
1. Have to dodge certain boss mechanics by moving.
2. Have to be in the correct range for some abilities and aiming/facing the enemy to correctly use it.
3. Have to pay attention to their spacing for certain abilities or the enemy may dodge them as part of a normal flow.
We will have good Action Combat, and we already know and have experienced all those things in Ashes even on the less powerful encounters. We shouldn't be concerned about if any given player needs to move around so much, as you said, but rather if the core concept of Action Combat is maintained.
Core concepts that most games, even if they offer Tab Targeting, do also have. I'm sure you've played multiple games that don't have those concepts, but I don't think anyone's been actually talking much about any of those games.
I am happy with their direction and I'm fully aware you can go 75% tab target, that is fine. But the discussion is that action combat can't do raids even closely to tab target. I disagree and have been saying and trying to provide examples it can do better then tab target as long as its designed well.
Both using the trinity system so you have dps, tanks an healers all that good stuff. People don't need to be running everywhere, but being completely static with all your stuff landing without any skill involved is less engaging. If I'm looking at both games in term of content imo I feel most people would enjoy neverwinter online. Purely action based and doing a raid and not everyone needs to be moving around all over the place every second. But its like I said its action layered on top adding a bit more diversity and of course needing to aim your shots (not that they need to make it that hard)
Meh.
Well designed AIs with dynamic fight sequences make for good PvE, most fight encounters are pretty study fight and complete rotation and don’t require any on the fly adaptation.
See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know.
You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work.
You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out.
You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all.
All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up.
If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content.
Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason.
You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily.
For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience.
Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction.
Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target.
Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack.
^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience.
I've just realized what we should really be saying to you...
According to your own definition, there are nearly no Tab Target games.
EQ2 and Lineage 2 are clearly Action Combat, so there's nothing to really be discussing here.
By your definition, all those great games with good PvE are already Action Combat games and we just have to wait for Intrepid to make another Action Combat game just like them.
EQ 2 and L2 are tab target games what are you talking about. If you are talking about my comment earlier I said the trend is leading to action / hybrid but some elemetns added or faked slightly. Example aoe in front over needing to have a mob targeted in swtor.
I guess SWTOR is a True Tab Target game?
I'm not talking about that though. So far I've seen an L2 player explain that your requirements for Action Combat are present in L2 (I agree that it isn't obvious by watching), and an EQ2 player explain that those requirements are present in EQ2, again, not obvious.
I also am a person who fights Ancient Kutum in BDO often, on Nova. I also consider that Action Combat. My character moves occasionally, and I do need to face in the general direction of Kutum for my abilities to hit, and we all know that BDO is an Action Combat game.
See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know.
You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work.
You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out.
You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all.
All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up.
If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content.
Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason.
You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily.
For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience.
Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction.
Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target.
Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack.
^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience.
I've just realized what we should really be saying to you...
According to your own definition, there are nearly no Tab Target games.
EQ2 and Lineage 2 are clearly Action Combat, so there's nothing to really be discussing here.
By your definition, all those great games with good PvE are already Action Combat games and we just have to wait for Intrepid to make another Action Combat game just like them.
EQ 2 and L2 are tab target games what are you talking about. If you are talking about my comment earlier I said the trend is leading to action / hybrid but some elemetns added or faked slightly. Example aoe in front over needing to have a mob targeted in swtor.
I guess SWTOR is a True Tab Target game?
I'm not talking about that though. So far I've seen an L2 player explain that your requirements for Action Combat are present in L2 (I agree that it isn't obvious by watching), and an EQ2 player explain that those requirements are present in EQ2, again, not obvious.
I also am a person who fights Ancient Kutum in BDO often, on Nova. I also consider that Action Combat. My character moves occasionally, and I do need to face in the general direction of Kutum for my abilities to hit, and we all know that BDO is an Action Combat game.
BDO is not designed for proper fights they are pretty much a mess i use to farm those bosses as well. They aren't fun or engaging and everything in the game is giant aoe. And bdo devs are lazy with content. You could designed something with bdo that can kind of work but it would still feel scuffed.
EQ and L2 aren't action combat in any form there aren't examples of it as far as I've seen. Using a skill that gives evasion to dodge is not action combat its just a skill you use. Having to dodge and aim your attacks is a lot more engaging you can see in the video i posted of EQ 2 raid combat vrs neverwinter online which is full action base.
My point about swtor is it has faked or semi components of action gameplay. Where other older games like L2, shadowbane, EQ do not. Though it has a few skills here or there is still fully tab target. The point is showing the direction the genre is evolving towards and that is hybrid. With action style gameplay fully able to do raids just as effectively as tab target.
I remember in bdo when they added the stronger version of kutum and everyone just sat until it died to ge the reward because the fight was honestly terrible in a tiny area with one shot aoes. Was 100% terrible and no one wanted to lose like 1 bill silver off gems being destroyed.
I sure hope that video is not the best example of action combat raid pve, cause ooh boy did that not impress me at all. Nor did it show the limits of action combat. The fight literally consisted of "move out of the aoe, use aoes against some slowish mobs and then stand in one fucking place and unload your 3 (maybe 6-9?) skills onto a huge unmoving target.
When Noaani says "action combat can't do what Tab can", I think he means the limits of the system in each given fight (or at least top ones). I did not see any "limits" being pushed in that NWO fight. @Dygz iirc you've played a fair bit of it, do you remember any hardcore raids from it? Maybe not that you've participated, but at least heard about? Cause I sure as hell hope that was not one of them. I'm an omega pve casual (considering L2's pve), but that shit did not look all that taxing. Even the BDO pvp vid I posted seemed waaaay more difficult.
Obviously I'm missing some gameplay mechanics and knowledge to truly perceive the difficulty of that fight, but the famous "action combat requires you to, like, constantly move and be alert and shit" seemed definitely absent in that video. Or was at least really subdued.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
If on the last steam the devs showed something akin to the gameplay in EQ 2 clicking 10 abilities in a rotation over what they actually showed with the more action based attacks. Do you you think people would have said that it was the right direction or be as excited?
Depends on what they showed.
We're confident that the devs can nail Tab Target combat. Showcasing some Action Combat Active skills first provides us with more confidence that they are on a better path towards improving the Action Combat that was implemented in Alpha 1.
I would be excited to see Fighter Active Skills like Hammer Strike. I dunno that that wasn't a Tab Target Active Skill. Same with Whirlwind.
I would not have been as excited to see an update to the same Cleric and Tank Active Skills that were available in Alpha 1.
I sure hope that video is not the best example of action combat raid pve, cause ooh boy did that not impress me at all. Nor did it show the limits of action combat. The fight literally consisted of "move out of the aoe, use aoes against some slowish mobs and then stand in one fucking place and unload your 3 (maybe 6-9?) skills onto a huge unmoving target.
When Noaani says "action combat can't do what Tab can", I think he means the limits of the system in each given fight (or at least top ones). I did not see any "limits" being pushed in that NWO fight. @Dygz iirc you've played a fair bit of it, do you remember any hardcore raids from it? Maybe not that you've participated, but at least heard about? Cause I sure as hell hope that was not one of them. I'm an omega pve casual (considering L2's pve), but that shit did not look all that taxing. Even the BDO pvp vid I posted seemed waaaay more difficult.
Obviously I'm missing some gameplay mechanics and knowledge to truly perceive the difficulty of that fight, but the famous "action combat requires you to, like, constantly move and be alert and shit" seemed definitely absent in that video. Or was at least really subdued.
Nope, that's about it.
They're really the same, which is honestly a pretty big positive for the rest of us.
I'm sure Mag has played some specific games that aren't, but none of the ones mentioned so far are much different in my book.
The hard part of Action Combat (relative to Tab) is always 'getting back into position to start striking again' or 'making sure your aim is correct when the enemy moves. Any Tab game that also requires this is basically the same thing.
You can ignore any responses about Kutum too. The amount of Mobility and positioning required to fight it depends entirely on the class being played. The one I mentioned just has a huge shield so you have to reposition less often, which I think is the standard expectation everyone should have of the 'big shield tank' class.
I sure hope that video is not the best example of action combat raid pve, cause ooh boy did that not impress me at all. Nor did it show the limits of action combat. The fight literally consisted of "move out of the aoe, use aoes against some slowish mobs and then stand in one fucking place and unload your 3 (maybe 6-9?) skills onto a huge unmoving target.
When Noaani says "action combat can't do what Tab can", I think he means the limits of the system in each given fight (or at least top ones). I did not see any "limits" being pushed in that NWO fight. @Dygz iirc you've played a fair bit of it, do you remember any hardcore raids from it? Maybe not that you've participated, but at least heard about? Cause I sure as hell hope that was not one of them. I'm an omega pve casual (considering L2's pve), but that shit did not look all that taxing. Even the BDO pvp vid I posted seemed waaaay more difficult.
Obviously I'm missing some gameplay mechanics and knowledge to truly perceive the difficulty of that fight, but the famous "action combat requires you to, like, constantly move and be alert and shit" seemed definitely absent in that video. Or was at least really subdued.
I'd say the everquest raid is even less impress as it just seems like everyone is standings still pressing buttons. Either way a quick glance of people doing it that know how to do it doesn't let you catch or understand all the mechanics.
Aoes alone would mean you would have to be alert to them if its a big enough threat where your healers can't out heal the dmg being taken. Again point of action combat sin't to be sonic, its about the control of your character between movement and attack. The difference being very clear between the two videos with eq2 being very static.
If on the last steam the devs showed something akin to the gameplay in EQ 2 clicking 10 abilities in a rotation over what they actually showed with the more action based attacks. Do you you think people would have said that it was the right direction or be as excited?
Depends on what they showed.
We're confident that the devs can nail Tab Target combat. Showcasing some Action Combat Active skills first provides us with more confidence that they are on a better path towards improving the Action Combat that was implemented in Alpha 1.
I would be excited to see Fighter Active Skills like Hammer Strike. I dunno that that wasn't a Tab Target Active Skill. Same with Whirlwind.
I would not have been as excited to see an update to the same Cleric and Tank Active Skills that were available in Alpha 1.
@Dygz iirc you've played a fair bit of it, do you remember any hardcore raids from it? Maybe not that you've participated, but at least heard about? Cause I sure as hell hope that was not one of them. I'm an omega pve casual (considering L2's pve), but that shit did not look all that taxing. Even the BDO pvp vid I posted seemed waaaay more difficult.
Obviously I'm missing some gameplay mechanics and knowledge to truly perceive the difficulty of that fight, but the famous "action combat requires you to, like, constantly move and be alert and shit" seemed definitely absent in that video. Or was at least really subdued.
Haha!
I didn't even look at the clip that Mag7spy shared.
In dunegons, I do like the added thrill of seeing a telegraph attack from periferal vision and proactively choosing to Roll/Dodge out of the way or actively Block the attack. Rather than simply letting my character stats resolve that contention.
But, for Hybrid combat -- I dunno how many of my characters' abilities will be Tab Target v Action Combat.
The ratios might different greatly on different characters.
The EQ2 vid is sped up too fast to for me to see if I would feel like current combat seems to slow and laborious compared to NWO.
I just don't understand the debate about which is (objectively) better when we can choose whichever we like in Ashes.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The Tab Target abilities of Ashes are not going to be "EQ style" in any case.
Keep in mind that Steven said that if they couldn't get the Action Combat to feel right, Ashes would just be Tab Target.
So...again...Steven doesn't quite agree with you on that.
I'm glad that they seem to have a better grasp on Action Combat now.
I just don't understand the debate about which is (objectively) better when we can choose whichever we like in Ashes.
I feel like many of us (maybe it was just me?) got caught up in explaining to Mag that Action Combat elements tend to get stripped away in large battles, bringing it 'back to Tab', but didn't actually understand that Mag thinks that Tab games don't require things like 'facing the enemy and making sure you face them for abilities' or 'spacing abilities that hit a certain distance in front of you' or 'dodging out of attacks that strike as lines rather than just being swung at your character's general location'.
Since so few of us seem to have seriously played such games, it appears that we all just play "Action Combat" and since Mag also basically agreed that 'removing some of the requirements' (which are pretty minimal, but not the ones Mag perceived to be present in the games being discussed) is fine for large scale PvE, I think there is actually... no real debate?
SWTOR is apparently just a game where you can use most of your abilities without even looking at your enemies and never need to reposition to avoid attacks I guess?
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Ya i saw it and if I think back to my nostalgia days I had epic fights in swtor being ganked by 2 jedi of equal level and out playing both them mechanically wise. The issue with tab target is you are locked on to the person and everything hits. I'm aware there are mobility skills for blink and teleporting on people, charge, etc. But when everything locks on and nothing misses its not really as epic as a fight can be. When you have that difficult of I need to land this skill or dodging in motion on top of all the mechanical elements. You aren't just out playing one person but you can out play entire groups to an extent of the gameplay.
That is why Ashes is going in the right direction with hybrid, which is pretty much tab evolved with more elements of mobility and skill. And you will end up having the most epic fights 100%.
If you look back to very old mmorpgs L2, everquest and shadowbane there is actually a pattern overtime of more action elements even if some of them are faked being added to mmorpgs. Its why combat has felt better overtime with tab target, but they pretty much are at the peak at what they can do and next step is hybrid.
I’ve played both action and tab at high levels. Asherons Call, Asherons Call 2, Shadowbane, WoW, SWTOR, Darkfall, Darkfall Unholy Wars, ESO, TERA, GW, GW2, FF14, AION, Rift, ArcheAge, Dragons Prophet, New World, Conquerors Blade..
Im still trying to figure out where you derive your opinions from in regards to combat depth because it must be something I haven’t played.
I’ve never seen an action combat game where you can one button fits all someone. But I *can* one button macro a good portion of the tab games I can much more effectively than the combat games I’ve played.
So I’d like to know which games you consider good combat depth.
Shadowbane brother here lmao
Awesome, another from the oldschool.
Im thinking people are confusing combat skill, combat intelligence, and combat depth.
Might be the fuss over these arguments.
See, this is just a sterotypical example if your bullshit. You literally have no way of knowing which MMO's I have and have not played, yet you claim to know.
You say you know how tab target works, yet you said you ait there waiting for an ability to be ready to cast. Since this is wrong on two points (you would cast something else,and skill queues exist) you CLEARLY do not know how tab target games work.
You can try and bullshit all you want,but you have been called out.
You keep asking for "examoles",but if you knew tab target games well, you would know there is no point in even asking for them. They dont forward the discussion at all.
All they do is waste my time - which is why I almost never even bother with wiki links to back points up.
EQ2.
If we are going to talk about macro'ing, you can macro an action game just as easily as a tab target game.
What you cant macro is PvP - which action games tend to have more than tab games.
This seems like an odd line for you to take, and you'll note that I specifically said an action game player would like a skill like that, not that action games have them.
Well there are no such abilities in any of the action games I’ve played. So I don’t know who you are interacting that wants such an ability.
Conq Blade, TERA have great combat depth; better than most of the MMOs I listed.
But Conq Blade is about the purest form of action you can get.
In a combat game I look to use my skills such as target acquisition and tracking, strafing and counter strafing, movement, (some examples of what’s needed). On top of what’s already required of an MMO. Data dissemination and interpretation, spatial intelligence, etc.
Never played EQ 1 or 2, can’t comment on them.
Truthfully I think most games tab or action are lackluster. Hopefully AoC nails it.
If you save Action can't do tab target large scale well. you need to give an example not just say that because you think its the case. You are trying to cop out pretty much by not talking about the content.
Already know about skill ques you are missing the point, its not about ques its about slow combat. Within that time frame you have little or nothing you can do as you wait for next skill to go off. Ability que doesn't mean anything (doesn't take much thinking to do the skill rotation you normally do on content), doesn't change the fact there is no action in that time as its meant to slow down the pace of combat as well for technical reason.
You are trying to make a big deal out of tab target, when a lot of those points are not a big deal. Tab / select your target, combat is simply use your skill be it dps, utility, healing. You have nothing else to worry about as when you click your abiltiy it works. You don't need to worry about position for the ability, aim, etc. You use your skill and you can have your next skill qued very easily.
For combat that sums it up, its nothing spectacular its a simply system and there is no reason action combat can't be superior to it as long as it is designed well. The combat is more engaging, hand eye coordination is needed on some level and you are fighting in a more immersive experience.
Me being called out? I can talk about all my experiences in mmorpgs I've played plenty of tab mmorpgs to understand the simplicity behind it. And when i say simplicity I'm not talking about making builds, mechs involved in skills and all the great fun stuff. I'm talking about the core of the actual combat. You click a button use your skill, que your next and use your skill. There is nothing about it that makes it difficult it doesn't require any skill all your abilities will hit the target without any of your own effort, half the time yo don't even need to be looking at your target you just need line of sight between characters regardless of your camera facing direction.
Tab target - Click a skill, don't even need to have the camera facing the direction or being paying attention to the screen and your character uses the skill and always hits the target.
Action - Must be moving to the target yourself, making sure you are in a good position and attacking it and landing your attack.
^ actual difference between the two at its core and nothing game breaking its simply more engaging. So again there is no reason why action combat can't do large man raids and also make it a more fun experience.
I've just realized what we should really be saying to you...
According to your own definition, there are nearly no Tab Target games.
EQ2 and Lineage 2 are clearly Action Combat, so there's nothing to really be discussing here.
By your definition, all those great games with good PvE are already Action Combat games and we just have to wait for Intrepid to make another Action Combat game just like them.
Both using the trinity system so you have dps, tanks an healers all that good stuff. People don't need to be running everywhere, but being completely static with all your stuff landing without any skill involved is less engaging. If I'm looking at both games in term of content imo I feel most people would enjoy neverwinter online. Purely action based and doing a raid and not everyone needs to be moving around all over the place every second. But its like I said its action layered on top adding a bit more diversity and of course needing to aim your shots (not that they need to make it that hard)
EQ 2 and L2 are tab target games what are you talking about. If you are talking about my comment earlier I said the trend is leading to action / hybrid but some elemetns added or faked slightly. Example aoe in front over needing to have a mob targeted in swtor.
I dunno how you measure who likes what more.
Links to some actual data??
Ok great. Since we already know from the last stream that it will be more like NWO, and you've already clarified that it actually doesn't matter that much if some classes don't move around that much during big fights, it seems like Intrepid is on the right track and we can all hope for a really great Action Combat game.
As long as players:
1. Have to dodge certain boss mechanics by moving.
2. Have to be in the correct range for some abilities and aiming/facing the enemy to correctly use it.
3. Have to pay attention to their spacing for certain abilities or the enemy may dodge them as part of a normal flow.
We will have good Action Combat, and we already know and have experienced all those things in Ashes even on the less powerful encounters. We shouldn't be concerned about if any given player needs to move around so much, as you said, but rather if the core concept of Action Combat is maintained.
Core concepts that most games, even if they offer Tab Targeting, do also have. I'm sure you've played multiple games that don't have those concepts, but I don't think anyone's been actually talking much about any of those games.
If on the last steam the devs showed something akin to the gameplay in EQ 2 clicking 10 abilities in a rotation over what they actually showed with the more action based attacks. Do you you think people would have said that it was the right direction or be as excited?
I am happy with their direction and I'm fully aware you can go 75% tab target, that is fine. But the discussion is that action combat can't do raids even closely to tab target. I disagree and have been saying and trying to provide examples it can do better then tab target as long as its designed well.
Meh.
Well designed AIs with dynamic fight sequences make for good PvE, most fight encounters are pretty study fight and complete rotation and don’t require any on the fly adaptation.
I guess SWTOR is a True Tab Target game?
I'm not talking about that though. So far I've seen an L2 player explain that your requirements for Action Combat are present in L2 (I agree that it isn't obvious by watching), and an EQ2 player explain that those requirements are present in EQ2, again, not obvious.
I also am a person who fights Ancient Kutum in BDO often, on Nova. I also consider that Action Combat. My character moves occasionally, and I do need to face in the general direction of Kutum for my abilities to hit, and we all know that BDO is an Action Combat game.
It's about the same really.
Sounds like poopy AI.
EQ and L2 aren't action combat in any form there aren't examples of it as far as I've seen. Using a skill that gives evasion to dodge is not action combat its just a skill you use. Having to dodge and aim your attacks is a lot more engaging you can see in the video i posted of EQ 2 raid combat vrs neverwinter online which is full action base.
My point about swtor is it has faked or semi components of action gameplay. Where other older games like L2, shadowbane, EQ do not. Though it has a few skills here or there is still fully tab target. The point is showing the direction the genre is evolving towards and that is hybrid. With action style gameplay fully able to do raids just as effectively as tab target.
When Noaani says "action combat can't do what Tab can", I think he means the limits of the system in each given fight (or at least top ones). I did not see any "limits" being pushed in that NWO fight. @Dygz iirc you've played a fair bit of it, do you remember any hardcore raids from it? Maybe not that you've participated, but at least heard about? Cause I sure as hell hope that was not one of them. I'm an omega pve casual (considering L2's pve), but that shit did not look all that taxing. Even the BDO pvp vid I posted seemed waaaay more difficult.
Obviously I'm missing some gameplay mechanics and knowledge to truly perceive the difficulty of that fight, but the famous "action combat requires you to, like, constantly move and be alert and shit" seemed definitely absent in that video. Or was at least really subdued.
Depends on what they showed.
We're confident that the devs can nail Tab Target combat. Showcasing some Action Combat Active skills first provides us with more confidence that they are on a better path towards improving the Action Combat that was implemented in Alpha 1.
I would be excited to see Fighter Active Skills like Hammer Strike. I dunno that that wasn't a Tab Target Active Skill. Same with Whirlwind.
I would not have been as excited to see an update to the same Cleric and Tank Active Skills that were available in Alpha 1.
Nope, that's about it.
They're really the same, which is honestly a pretty big positive for the rest of us.
I'm sure Mag has played some specific games that aren't, but none of the ones mentioned so far are much different in my book.
The hard part of Action Combat (relative to Tab) is always 'getting back into position to start striking again' or 'making sure your aim is correct when the enemy moves. Any Tab game that also requires this is basically the same thing.
You can ignore any responses about Kutum too. The amount of Mobility and positioning required to fight it depends entirely on the class being played. The one I mentioned just has a huge shield so you have to reposition less often, which I think is the standard expectation everyone should have of the 'big shield tank' class.
I'd say the everquest raid is even less impress as it just seems like everyone is standings still pressing buttons. Either way a quick glance of people doing it that know how to do it doesn't let you catch or understand all the mechanics.
Aoes alone would mean you would have to be alert to them if its a big enough threat where your healers can't out heal the dmg being taken. Again point of action combat sin't to be sonic, its about the control of your character between movement and attack. The difference being very clear between the two videos with eq2 being very static.
If you would like to see all the functions of the raid though you can see in this video.
I meant sell*
I didn't even look at the clip that Mag7spy shared.
In dunegons, I do like the added thrill of seeing a telegraph attack from periferal vision and proactively choosing to Roll/Dodge out of the way or actively Block the attack. Rather than simply letting my character stats resolve that contention.
But, for Hybrid combat -- I dunno how many of my characters' abilities will be Tab Target v Action Combat.
The ratios might different greatly on different characters.
The EQ2 vid is sped up too fast to for me to see if I would feel like current combat seems to slow and laborious compared to NWO.
I just don't understand the debate about which is (objectively) better when we can choose whichever we like in Ashes.
Keep in mind that Steven said that if they couldn't get the Action Combat to feel right, Ashes would just be Tab Target.
So...again...Steven doesn't quite agree with you on that.
I'm glad that they seem to have a better grasp on Action Combat now.
I feel like many of us (maybe it was just me?) got caught up in explaining to Mag that Action Combat elements tend to get stripped away in large battles, bringing it 'back to Tab', but didn't actually understand that Mag thinks that Tab games don't require things like 'facing the enemy and making sure you face them for abilities' or 'spacing abilities that hit a certain distance in front of you' or 'dodging out of attacks that strike as lines rather than just being swung at your character's general location'.
Since so few of us seem to have seriously played such games, it appears that we all just play "Action Combat" and since Mag also basically agreed that 'removing some of the requirements' (which are pretty minimal, but not the ones Mag perceived to be present in the games being discussed) is fine for large scale PvE, I think there is actually... no real debate?
SWTOR is apparently just a game where you can use most of your abilities without even looking at your enemies and never need to reposition to avoid attacks I guess?
I'm unfamiliar, so I can't say.