@Azherae I wonder how I did, but I am not bothered by it.
To be honest there's VERY little chance that it was personal. I just ignore people who I (in my arrogance) believe make their arguments poorly, for convenience.
Prevents me from arrogantly 'coming to restructure their argument for them', and makes certain pages much easier to skim (entire blocks of you and Mag7 back and forth for example). So, if there's anything to take from it 'positively or otherwise', it's:
"I think you make insistent arguments, poorly, and I read them only when others quote them."
You can definitely assume I have no negative feelings toward you in general.
@Dygz I made this post to do just that. Would he ever respond, probably not, but these are his forums and I can't really just contact him, can I?
I mean... I'm pretty sure this is not the first time someone has made Steven aware of this opinion.
I've said on my podcast, which I know he watches, that the cosmetic shop doesn't feel very different to me that P2W or Pay 4 convience. I'm not winning anything, but I'm still paying for stuff to make playing the way I want to play easier and quicker.
That's great that the game tailors to the way you like to play and makes your experience "easier and quicker" (disregarding risk versus reward). But that doesn't mean that some players don't have an issue with the current cosmetic shop and how it affects visual progression/competition/achievement.
Risk vrs reward and us talking about P2W cosmetics are two different discussions. I tried to reason with them to have them understand using a buzzword in the wrong way isn't going to get them to have a good discussion.
I understand you don't like that they used the term "P2W"... But just because you don't like it doesn't mean their opinion should be deemed invalid or automatically dismissed. But like I said in other replies, I can see the argument from both sides.
You can keep defending the argument and asking one side to ignore the p2w argument, but at the same time... the other side of the argument coukd move away from the p2w argument and have a more reasonable stance like the cosmetic shop is negative overall for the game, because {blank}
It takes both sides to keep an argument stationary.
I'm sorry but I don't believe I ever said that anyone has to "ignore the P2W" part of the argument..? But I did say the following:
"It just seems like some people in this thread get hung up on the "P2W" portion and just totally dismiss the core of OP's argument."
I stand by what I said. It appears some are more interested in the semantics of how the topic was named (Cosmetic Shop is P2W) or chiseling a definition in stone of what P2W really is... rather than focusing on the actual meat of the topic.
@Dygz I made this post to do just that. Would he ever respond, probably not, but these are his forums and I can't really just contact him, can I?
I mean... I'm pretty sure this is not the first time someone has made Steven aware of this opinion.
I've said on my podcast, which I know he watches, that the cosmetic shop doesn't feel very different to me that P2W or Pay 4 convience. I'm not winning anything, but I'm still paying for stuff to make playing the way I want to play easier and quicker.
That's great that the game tailors to the way you like to play and makes your experience "easier and quicker" (disregarding risk versus reward). But that doesn't mean that some players don't have an issue with the current cosmetic shop and how it affects visual progression/competition/achievement.
Risk vrs reward and us talking about P2W cosmetics are two different discussions. I tried to reason with them to have them understand using a buzzword in the wrong way isn't going to get them to have a good discussion.
I understand you don't like that they used the term "P2W"... But just because you don't like it doesn't mean their opinion should be deemed invalid or automatically dismissed. But like I said in other replies, I can see the argument from both sides.
You can keep defending the argument and asking one side to ignore the p2w argument, but at the same time... the other side of the argument coukd move away from the p2w argument and have a more reasonable stance like the cosmetic shop is negative overall for the game, because {blank}
It takes both sides to keep an argument stationary.
I'm sorry but I don't believe I ever said that anyone has to "ignore the P2W" part of the argument..? But I did say the following:
"It just seems like some people in this thread get hung up on the "P2W" portion and just totally dismiss the core of OP's argument."
I stand by what I said. It appears some are more interested in the semantics of how the topic was named (Cosmetic Shop is P2W) or chiseling a definition in stone of what P2W really is... rather than focusing on the actual meat of the topic.
Just pointing out an observation.
The core people are talking about is that not just in the title but the OP saying it is P2W. People have mentioned the other points earlier on in the post not agreeing with a higher sub fee or having to buy character slots.
I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)
So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.
Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
0
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
That's great that the game tailors to the way you like to play and makes your experience "easier and quicker" (disregarding risk versus reward). But that doesn't mean that some players don't have an issue with the current cosmetic shop and how it affects visual progression/competition/achievement.
People have issue with the cosmetic shop even when they don't think it's pay to win.
So...yes... it's fine to have an issue with the cosmetic shop.
People also have an issue with Corruption, but Corruption is not P2W.
I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)
So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.
Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.
Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.
It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.
"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.
That's great that the game tailors to the way you like to play and makes your experience "easier and quicker" (disregarding risk versus reward). But that doesn't mean that some players don't have an issue with the current cosmetic shop and how it affects visual progression/competition/achievement.
People have issue with the cosmetic shop even when they don't think it's pay to win.
So...yes... it's fine to have an issue with the cosmetic shop.
People also have an issue with Corruption, but Corruption is not P2W.
Corruption doesn’t cost money and it’s not in a cash shop…
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
Rather not argue with someone seeking attention on this forum. It's quite silly this is how you spend your Friday... But i will say, P2W means you are buying something that gives you great advantage over other's who's not paying. Buying cosmetics that doesn't affect gameplay in any way is not P2W. You may want to look up the definition of what P2W is. You seem very lost here. The game is also not out, so you're just on here making assumptions and lies...
1
Options
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
Rather not argue with someone seeking attention on this forum. It's quite silly this is how you spend your Friday...
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
Rather not argue with someone seeking attention on this forum. It's quite silly this is how you spend your Friday... But i will say, P2W means you are buying something that gives you great advantage over other's who's not paying. Buying cosmetics that doesn't affect gameplay in any way is not P2W. You may want to look up the definition of what P2W is. You seem very lost here. The game is also not out, so you're just on here making assumptions and lies...
Cosmetics affect gameplay for Roleplayers.
You can argue that 'RolePlaying isn't real gameplay' if you like.
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
You don't understand what P2W is, all your points have already been countered so its easier for you to just liek what other people are saying and hop they talk for you. Both them didn't even want to confident stand strongly on the P2W element you are talking about funny enough. One tried to deflect it to something else, the other say you create a scenario where you could see yourself being right not that i agree with that.
No one is jumping into rps saying they won, it just shows you aren't actually a rper.
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
You don't understand what P2W is, all your points have already been countered so its easier for you to just liek what other people are saying and hop they talk for you. Both them didn't even want to confident stand strongly on the P2W element you are talking about funny enough. One tried to deflect it to something else, the other say you create a scenario where you could see yourself being right not that i agree with that.
No one is jumping into rps saying they won, it just shows you aren't actually a rper.
You are wrong about this, and I AM standing strongly on the concept that for a RolePlayer, Cosmetic Shops are P2W.
You just failed to understand the premise I gave as to how one 'wins' at RP.
Try it again. Limited slots. Need to be chosen. Need to prove you deserve the slot over someone else. Competition.
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
You don't understand what P2W is, all your points have already been countered so its easier for you to just liek what other people are saying and hop they talk for you. Both them didn't even want to confident stand strongly on the P2W element you are talking about funny enough. One tried to deflect it to something else, the other say you create a scenario where you could see yourself being right not that i agree with that.
No one is jumping into rps saying they won, it just shows you aren't actually a rper.
You are wrong about this, and I AM standing strongly on the concept that for a RolePlayer, Cosmetic Shops are P2W.
You just failed to understand the premise I gave as to how one 'wins' at RP.
Try it again. Limited slots. Need to be chosen. Need to prove you deserve the slot over someone else. Competition.
O so you are now huh? Then you failed to my point on how roleplay isn't a win or lose condition it is a story between a person or parties.
If you are saying rpers are pick with who they rp with limited slots has absolutely nothing to do with a cosmetic shop and everything to do with how a rper rps. A shop doesn't make a rper a better rper, being table to roleplay your character and create a interesting story as well as write does. Your whole point falls apart when you are talking about actual RP and not gameplay elements that involve combat, objective, etc.
A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterisation, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.
You realize how it says collaboratively and it isn't a competition else you don't have a story as you need to work together to create and play out your roleplay. You don't show up in a roleplay and say I win.
I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)
So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.
Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.
Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.
It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.
"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.
Point by point:
If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one.
The game doesn't necessarily cater to me either. I have lots of different preferences for content and mechanics in MMOs, however I find the idea of what Intrepid is doing interesting, and I'm willing to give it a try, even if I may end up having a miserable experience in some aspects.
The thing is, I have no desires regarding the looks and appearances of my or other characters. Everyone is free to look how they like. It won't impede me from progressing in the game, or slow my progress in any way. Therefore cosmetic in the store is not a P2W issue.
And since a majority seem to agree with that being the case, the right of majority over one person whining that they won't be able to look the coolest (which, again, is debatable considering what visual progression is in the game) is absolutely king.
If Iridianny had made the case that others have, wherein a cosmetic could hinder some forms of PvP (whcih has been dealt with by Steven's own reassurances), then maybe yeah, I could see the case. But that's not their argument. They only care about how they look (or how others look in relation to them).
A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterisation, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.
You realize how it says collaboratively and it isn't a competition else you don't have a story as you need to work together to create and play out your roleplay. You don't show up in a roleplay and say I win.
Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.
Note only that the reason I stopped was not because "I didn't feel like arguing the point". I just don't believe in arguing points with you specifically, as you can seemingly seldom grasp them.
I will make one more attempt. Assume a group is walking through a Node and their RP involves 'talking to other people who live there'. They have a slot in their group for a 'Knight of the Order'. They would prefer, for MULTIPLE reasons, that everyone in the node who cares to RP, who also has never seen them before, be able to identify their 'Knight of the Order' easily by sight.
If this is the story you wish to tell, and you have two players of approximately equal skill at roleplaying such a Knight and one has the costume and the other does not, the one with the Costume gets the role. You don't have to call it winning if you don't want to.
I don't know how to engage with you very well, as noted, because you often take the most simplistic response to things. It is true that 'one doesn't show up to a roleplay and say I win'. This is irrelevantly correct.
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
Rather not argue with someone seeking attention on this forum. It's quite silly this is how you spend your Friday... But i will say, P2W means you are buying something that gives you great advantage over other's who's not paying. Buying cosmetics that doesn't affect gameplay in any way is not P2W. You may want to look up the definition of what P2W is. You seem very lost here. The game is also not out, so you're just on here making assumptions and lies...
Cosmetics affect gameplay for Roleplayers.
You can argue that 'RolePlaying isn't real gameplay' if you like.
Considering Steven is against having an RP server altogether, then perhaps this just isn't the game for RPing in the way these people intend it.
But let's assume RPing is a thing the way they want it to be. Then what does it matter if someone bought a costume? At best, should it not just be a tool to enhance the fantasy of one's character? It's an added tool.
If some guy RPing as fisherman in Verra looks more like a fisherman by buying a fisherman cosmetic, how is he winning over others? He simply looks the part. His RP could be shit, and the story progression for fishermen will be entirely out of their hands anyway.
I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)
So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.
Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.
Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.
It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.
"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.
Point by point:
If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one.
The game doesn't necessarily cater to me either. I have lots of different preferences for content and mechanics in MMOs, however I find the idea of what Intrepid is doing interesting, and I'm willing to give it a try, even if I may end up having a miserable experience in some aspects.
The thing is, I have no desires regarding the looks and appearances of my or other characters. Everyone is free to look how they like. It won't impede me from progressing in the game, or slow my progress in any way. Therefore cosmetic in the store is not a P2W issue.
And since a majority seem to agree with that being the case, the right of majority over one person whining that they won't be able to look the coolest (which, again, is debatable considering what visual progression is in the game) is absolutely king.
If Iridianny had made the case that others have, wherein a cosmetic could hinder some forms of PvP (whcih has been dealt with by Steven's own reassurances), then maybe yeah, I could see the case. But that's not their argument. They only care about how they look (or how others look in relation to them).
So yeah. It's all very selfish.
Why does a costume matter for PvP though? All it does is maybe offer a small advantage to the player who has it?
(From the RolePlayer perspective): What does it matter if you lose a few more fights? That doesn't affect your progression in Roleplaying if you're good enough at it, so it has minimal effect on gameplay.
You having no desire for something does not make it unimportant, and while majority usually rules, 'the uncaring majority' often needs to be curtailed.
I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)
So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.
Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.
Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.
It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.
"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.
If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one..
Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
Rather not argue with someone seeking attention on this forum. It's quite silly this is how you spend your Friday... But i will say, P2W means you are buying something that gives you great advantage over other's who's not paying. Buying cosmetics that doesn't affect gameplay in any way is not P2W. You may want to look up the definition of what P2W is. You seem very lost here. The game is also not out, so you're just on here making assumptions and lies...
Cosmetics affect gameplay for Roleplayers.
You can argue that 'RolePlaying isn't real gameplay' if you like.
Considering Steven is against having an RP server altogether, then perhaps this just isn't the game for RPing in the way these people intend it.
But let's assume RPing is a thing the way they want it to be. Then what does it matter if someone bought a costume? At best, should it not just be a tool to enhance the fantasy of one's character? It's an added tool.
If some guy RPing as fisherman in Verra looks more like a fisherman by buying a fisherman cosmetic, how is he winning over others? He simply looks the part. His RP could be shit, and the progression for fishermen will be entirely out of their hands anyway.
Before you and I get into something pointless...
The last time Iridianny went down this path, I was explicitly on the other side of this argument because of what exactly she was suggesting as solutions to the issue.
I just don't think you can reasonably either:
A ) Call her selfish for wishing there was a solution.
B ) Claim that there is no issue at all.
Unfortunately I only have the same scenario given prior as the explanation for why it's an issue. If you disagree or don't believe in RolePlayer Hierarchy, then there's no way to come to any understanding of perspectives. If you believe 'RolePlayers should just not be that way', and can't see how one could assign the same to PvPers or combatants, then any conversation would definitely lead to disagreement.
Both sides would simply continue perceiving the other as selfish.
OMG... I swear, other MMO's must be paying ya'll to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is not P2W...
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
Rather not argue with someone seeking attention on this forum. It's quite silly this is how you spend your Friday... But i will say, P2W means you are buying something that gives you great advantage over other's who's not paying. Buying cosmetics that doesn't affect gameplay in any way is not P2W. You may want to look up the definition of what P2W is. You seem very lost here. The game is also not out, so you're just on here making assumptions and lies...
Cosmetics affect gameplay for Roleplayers.
You can argue that 'RolePlaying isn't real gameplay' if you like.
Considering Steven is against having an RP server altogether, then perhaps this just isn't the game for RPing in the way these people intend it.
How? He is against having a rp server because he wants rp to be integrated into every single server… and sorry, but role playing is what you are doing always, whenever you are playing a role playing game, no matter “how” you role play it.
I think something you are all not understanding is personal progression and progression in a competitive standpoint can both be winning to people. Winning can be defined as ": to obtain by work : EARN" https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win
To me, personal progression is more important. Therefore, cosmetic collection or perhaps visual desires that represent an achieved persona for my character are limited by a pay wall (for this example given the cosmetic I want is in the shop and unachievable in game.)
So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.
Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.
Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.
It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.
"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.
Point by point:
If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one.
The game doesn't necessarily cater to me either. I have lots of different preferences for content and mechanics in MMOs, however I find the idea of what Intrepid is doing interesting, and I'm willing to give it a try, even if I may end up having a miserable experience in some aspects.
The thing is, I have no desires regarding the looks and appearances of my or other characters. Everyone is free to look how they like. It won't impede me from progressing in the game, or slow my progress in any way. Therefore cosmetic in the store is not a P2W issue.
And since a majority seem to agree with that being the case, the right of majority over one person whining that they won't be able to look the coolest (which, again, is debatable considering what visual progression is in the game) is absolutely king.
If Iridianny had made the case that others have, wherein a cosmetic could hinder some forms of PvP (whcih has been dealt with by Steven's own reassurances), then maybe yeah, I could see the case. But that's not their argument. They only care about how they look (or how others look in relation to them).
So yeah. It's all very selfish.
Why does a costume matter for PvP though? All it does is maybe offer a small advantage to the player who has it?
(From the RolePlayer perspective): What does it matter if you lose a few more fights? That doesn't affect your progression in Roleplaying if you're good enough at it, so it has minimal effect on gameplay.
You having no desire for something does not make it unimportant, and while majority usually rules, 'the uncaring majority' often needs to be curtailed.
Some have claimed that in PvP having a costume could hinder threat identification.
So let's say a level 5 player is prancing about with a massive armor set and a glowing sword. One might assume: Oh they're strong, or have these type of stats etc. Whereas in reality maybe they have a shirt and a stick. Which could incur into issues with Corruption.
Or the other way around.
However, as I note, Steven already explained that they have an idea to show a buff on the character nameplate, indicating what kind of armor they are actually wearing (under the costume).
Note that a costume covers the entirety of the gear. It's not like transmog, where you can edit your outfit piece by piece.
So basically what you're saying is: since the majority doesn't care or is OK with it, we should instead have a tyranny of one type of player who strongly cares about one aspect of the game.
Sounds doubly selfish to me, my friend. Not doing much to dissuade me.
Comments
To be honest there's VERY little chance that it was personal. I just ignore people who I (in my arrogance) believe make their arguments poorly, for convenience.
Prevents me from arrogantly 'coming to restructure their argument for them', and makes certain pages much easier to skim (entire blocks of you and Mag7 back and forth for example). So, if there's anything to take from it 'positively or otherwise', it's:
"I think you make insistent arguments, poorly, and I read them only when others quote them."
You can definitely assume I have no negative feelings toward you in general.
I'm sorry but I don't believe I ever said that anyone has to "ignore the P2W" part of the argument..? But I did say the following:
"It just seems like some people in this thread get hung up on the "P2W" portion and just totally dismiss the core of OP's argument."
I stand by what I said. It appears some are more interested in the semantics of how the topic was named (Cosmetic Shop is P2W) or chiseling a definition in stone of what P2W really is... rather than focusing on the actual meat of the topic.
Just pointing out an observation.
The core people are talking about is that not just in the title but the OP saying it is P2W. People have mentioned the other points earlier on in the post not agreeing with a higher sub fee or having to buy character slots.
So what semantics are you talking about?
So again, what you're saying is the game should cater to you. Seems kinda selfish not gonna lie.
Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
So...yes... it's fine to have an issue with the cosmetic shop.
People also have an issue with Corruption, but Corruption is not P2W.
I know you weren't asking me specifically but since this is a public discussion I'll just contribute my two cents.
Calling the OP selfish for sharing their concern and explaining why they feel the way they do is a little... much, wouldn't you say? If having an opinion constitutes as being selfish... I guess we are all in that boat then. Come on now.
It's very easy to spew a line like "...what you're saying is the game should cater to you..." when the game is already catering to you. Don't belittle someone for having a difference of opinion.
"Why should your desire to look cool by your own means, trump everyone else's desire to look the way they want whilst focusing on other paths?
And why should your desire to look the way you want trump the process of visual progression/achievement? It goes both ways.
Corruption doesn’t cost money and it’s not in a cash shop…
OMG… I swear, AOC must be paying you to post lies on here. A cosmetic shop is P2W…
What does that post accomplish in your mind?
It’s funny bc mine is actually more believable as they are utilizing the monetization feature and don’t want people to believe it’s p2w given they promised they wouldn’t have p2w…
Yen : Roleplaying Win :: Dollar : MMO Win
The means by which you 'win' in roleplaying is simply not the currency to win in an mmo. Hence why there is SO much push back on this thread.
You just aren't going to get a coffee in L.A. with your 810 yen.
Rather not argue with someone seeking attention on this forum. It's quite silly this is how you spend your Friday... But i will say, P2W means you are buying something that gives you great advantage over other's who's not paying. Buying cosmetics that doesn't affect gameplay in any way is not P2W. You may want to look up the definition of what P2W is. You seem very lost here. The game is also not out, so you're just on here making assumptions and lies...
Couldn't have said it any better about you.
Cosmetics affect gameplay for Roleplayers.
You can argue that 'RolePlaying isn't real gameplay' if you like.
You don't understand what P2W is, all your points have already been countered so its easier for you to just liek what other people are saying and hop they talk for you. Both them didn't even want to confident stand strongly on the P2W element you are talking about funny enough. One tried to deflect it to something else, the other say you create a scenario where you could see yourself being right not that i agree with that.
No one is jumping into rps saying they won, it just shows you aren't actually a rper.
You are wrong about this, and I AM standing strongly on the concept that for a RolePlayer, Cosmetic Shops are P2W.
You just failed to understand the premise I gave as to how one 'wins' at RP.
Try it again. Limited slots. Need to be chosen. Need to prove you deserve the slot over someone else. Competition.
O so you are now huh? Then you failed to my point on how roleplay isn't a win or lose condition it is a story between a person or parties.
If you are saying rpers are pick with who they rp with limited slots has absolutely nothing to do with a cosmetic shop and everything to do with how a rper rps. A shop doesn't make a rper a better rper, being table to roleplay your character and create a interesting story as well as write does. Your whole point falls apart when you are talking about actual RP and not gameplay elements that involve combat, objective, etc.
You realize how it says collaboratively and it isn't a competition else you don't have a story as you need to work together to create and play out your roleplay. You don't show up in a roleplay and say I win.
Point by point:
If they make a thread claiming the game should do what they prefer and that other options aren't good, that's not raising concern, that's a demand, and a selfish one.
The game doesn't necessarily cater to me either. I have lots of different preferences for content and mechanics in MMOs, however I find the idea of what Intrepid is doing interesting, and I'm willing to give it a try, even if I may end up having a miserable experience in some aspects.
The thing is, I have no desires regarding the looks and appearances of my or other characters. Everyone is free to look how they like. It won't impede me from progressing in the game, or slow my progress in any way. Therefore cosmetic in the store is not a P2W issue.
And since a majority seem to agree with that being the case, the right of majority over one person whining that they won't be able to look the coolest (which, again, is debatable considering what visual progression is in the game) is absolutely king.
If Iridianny had made the case that others have, wherein a cosmetic could hinder some forms of PvP (whcih has been dealt with by Steven's own reassurances), then maybe yeah, I could see the case. But that's not their argument. They only care about how they look (or how others look in relation to them).
So yeah. It's all very selfish.
Your inability to grasp situations that you have not personally experienced continues to be disappointing.
Note only that the reason I stopped was not because "I didn't feel like arguing the point". I just don't believe in arguing points with you specifically, as you can seemingly seldom grasp them.
I will make one more attempt. Assume a group is walking through a Node and their RP involves 'talking to other people who live there'. They have a slot in their group for a 'Knight of the Order'. They would prefer, for MULTIPLE reasons, that everyone in the node who cares to RP, who also has never seen them before, be able to identify their 'Knight of the Order' easily by sight.
If this is the story you wish to tell, and you have two players of approximately equal skill at roleplaying such a Knight and one has the costume and the other does not, the one with the Costume gets the role. You don't have to call it winning if you don't want to.
I don't know how to engage with you very well, as noted, because you often take the most simplistic response to things. It is true that 'one doesn't show up to a roleplay and say I win'. This is irrelevantly correct.
Considering Steven is against having an RP server altogether, then perhaps this just isn't the game for RPing in the way these people intend it.
But let's assume RPing is a thing the way they want it to be. Then what does it matter if someone bought a costume? At best, should it not just be a tool to enhance the fantasy of one's character? It's an added tool.
If some guy RPing as fisherman in Verra looks more like a fisherman by buying a fisherman cosmetic, how is he winning over others? He simply looks the part. His RP could be shit, and the story progression for fishermen will be entirely out of their hands anyway.
Why does a costume matter for PvP though? All it does is maybe offer a small advantage to the player who has it?
(From the RolePlayer perspective): What does it matter if you lose a few more fights? That doesn't affect your progression in Roleplaying if you're good enough at it, so it has minimal effect on gameplay.
You having no desire for something does not make it unimportant, and while majority usually rules, 'the uncaring majority' often needs to be curtailed.
Please show my where I made the claim the “game should do what I prefer”.
Before you and I get into something pointless...
The last time Iridianny went down this path, I was explicitly on the other side of this argument because of what exactly she was suggesting as solutions to the issue.
I just don't think you can reasonably either:
A ) Call her selfish for wishing there was a solution.
B ) Claim that there is no issue at all.
Unfortunately I only have the same scenario given prior as the explanation for why it's an issue. If you disagree or don't believe in RolePlayer Hierarchy, then there's no way to come to any understanding of perspectives. If you believe 'RolePlayers should just not be that way', and can't see how one could assign the same to PvPers or combatants, then any conversation would definitely lead to disagreement.
Both sides would simply continue perceiving the other as selfish.
How? He is against having a rp server because he wants rp to be integrated into every single server… and sorry, but role playing is what you are doing always, whenever you are playing a role playing game, no matter “how” you role play it.
Some have claimed that in PvP having a costume could hinder threat identification.
So let's say a level 5 player is prancing about with a massive armor set and a glowing sword. One might assume: Oh they're strong, or have these type of stats etc. Whereas in reality maybe they have a shirt and a stick. Which could incur into issues with Corruption.
Or the other way around.
However, as I note, Steven already explained that they have an idea to show a buff on the character nameplate, indicating what kind of armor they are actually wearing (under the costume).
Note that a costume covers the entirety of the gear. It's not like transmog, where you can edit your outfit piece by piece.
So basically what you're saying is: since the majority doesn't care or is OK with it, we should instead have a tyranny of one type of player who strongly cares about one aspect of the game.
Sounds doubly selfish to me, my friend. Not doing much to dissuade me.