If I appear to be 'being facetious', it's because of the same thing. I don't understand why MultiBoxing isn't considered P2W. To me, it totally is, and I'm also okay with it.
I'd mainly chuck it up to the problems that would arise if multiboxing was seen as direct p2w. If people start yelling at Intrepid to somehow limit multi-pc-multiboxing, Intrepid would have to either take the reputation hit (though I doubt it'd be big) or a potential lawsuit from some big american family that has 5 people all leaving in one house and wanting to play the game together, but not able to because Intrepid listened to the yelling and blocked multiple PC on one network from accessing the game.
It's a slippery slope of sorts. Or at least that's how I see it and that's my reasoning for those definitions.
Right but this isn't 'Multiboxing isn't P2W' to some people, including me.
It's just 'This is the form of P2W that we can't stop without causing harm so it's gonna be allowed'.
Getting up and saying 'Well Multiboxing isn't actually P2W' for MMOs as a whole would get... about the same response it got the last time, I think. Now that you remind me, I didn't have a parser for that thread.
Steven can define things however he wants, and definitions are absolutely based on common understanding. What I'm moreso trying to convey to some others is that there's a place one can 'come from', with a legit interest in Ashes, where Cosmetics are actually quite P2W.
Just as for me, the Economy First player, Multiboxing is ABSOLUTELY and possibly the WORST P2W. It's just also unstoppable by most standards so eh.
If I were to make a 'Multiboxing is P2W' topic (I will not), does Intrepid get a pass 'because most Fantasy MMO players don't actually care about the economy'? (making no assertion about how true that is or isn't)
Goes both ways, you can't acknowledge her points and ignore counter points against that with roleplaying and its purpose.
Mag, the main point of Azherae's example was that there are in fact cases where cosmetic stores can be seen as p2w. They can be seen as p2w within the gameplay style of the people in said example. Those people are a minority (imo a real small one, relatively speaking), but for their gameplay the store is indeed p2w.
And as Iridianny herself said, she doesn't see "a potion that'll give you max lvl" as p2w, while to any self-respecting hardcore player that would be blasphemous. It's a matter of povs.
And as for the example itself, as Azherae said, you might've not come across people that RP in that particular way, but apparently there are some. You could argue that their opinion could be disregarded because they're a minority of a minority or that the RP playstyle itself is not something that should accounted for when talking about p2w of something, but the fact remains that there is an objective example where Iridianny's point is true. That is, a store-bought cosmetic led to someone being directly better than someone else.
I had commented on that, that is not normal even among rp and even among a mmo to be turning people away because their knight doesn't have certain pieces of gear. Which its extremely unlike they would make that set involve stuff on the store ontop of it. That isn't even about winning it is more just gate keeping at that point.
Goes both ways, you can't acknowledge her points and ignore counter points against that with roleplaying and its purpose.
Mag, the main point of Azherae's example was that there are in fact cases where cosmetic stores can be seen as p2w. They can be seen as p2w within the gameplay style of the people in said example. Those people are a minority (imo a real small one, relatively speaking), but for their gameplay the store is indeed p2w.
And as Iridianny herself said, she doesn't see "a potion that'll give you max lvl" as p2w, while to any self-respecting hardcore player that would be blasphemous. It's a matter of povs.
And as for the example itself, as Azherae said, you might've not come across people that RP in that particular way, but apparently there are some. You could argue that their opinion could be disregarded because they're a minority of a minority or that the RP playstyle itself is not something that should accounted for when talking about p2w of something, but the fact remains that there is an objective example where Iridianny's point is true. That is, a store-bought cosmetic led to someone being directly better than someone else.
I had commented on that, that is not normal even among rp and even among a mmo to be turning people away because their knight doesn't have certain pieces of gear. Which its extremely unlike they would make that set involve stuff on the store ontop of it. That isn't even about winning it is more just gate keeping at that point.
One more time.
Two people, approx equal skill at RP.
Two knights for options. One slot.
One Knight has Cosmetic, the other doesn't.
I will believe that you would go 'Well we shouldn't give any special advantage to Carl because he actually looks the part, let's flip a coin'.
I'm just surprised you've never met anyone who doesn't flip the coin.
Just as for me, the Economy First player, Multiboxing is ABSOLUTELY and possibly the WORST P2W. It's just also unstoppable by most standards so eh.
Yeah, this is why I found it quite hypocritical when Iridianny said that "being able to buy additional char slots is not p2w", while asking to see her pov as a valid argument for why the cosmetics store is p2w.
If I have the same amount of time to play the game as another nerd and we're both willing to grind the game enough to level up several artisans in different branches, but he can buy more char slots and do more stuff with them - to me, that's directly p2w. Multiboxing falls under the same concept, except I'm more accepting of it purely because in order to utilize that p2w advantage you gotta put in a loooot of money that I personally wouldn't have any time soon, while a char slot would probably cost somewhere below $30 (I'd hope).
So somewhat of a "you wouldn't say that getting obliterated by a lvl50 dude as a lvl10 dude is unfair, because the difference between you is just too big. But if a lvl15 one can still obliterate you just as much - now that's just shitty and painful" kind of thing.
Goes both ways, you can't acknowledge her points and ignore counter points against that with roleplaying and its purpose.
Mag, the main point of Azherae's example was that there are in fact cases where cosmetic stores can be seen as p2w. They can be seen as p2w within the gameplay style of the people in said example. Those people are a minority (imo a real small one, relatively speaking), but for their gameplay the store is indeed p2w.
And as Iridianny herself said, she doesn't see "a potion that'll give you max lvl" as p2w, while to any self-respecting hardcore player that would be blasphemous. It's a matter of povs.
And as for the example itself, as Azherae said, you might've not come across people that RP in that particular way, but apparently there are some. You could argue that their opinion could be disregarded because they're a minority of a minority or that the RP playstyle itself is not something that should accounted for when talking about p2w of something, but the fact remains that there is an objective example where Iridianny's point is true. That is, a store-bought cosmetic led to someone being directly better than someone else.
I had commented on that, that is not normal even among rp and even among a mmo to be turning people away because their knight doesn't have certain pieces of gear. Which its extremely unlike they would make that set involve stuff on the store ontop of it. That isn't even about winning it is more just gate keeping at that point.
One more time.
Two people, approx equal skill at RP.
Two knights for options. One slot.
One Knight has Cosmetic, the other doesn't.
I will believe that you would go 'Well we shouldn't give any special advantage to Carl because he actually looks the part, let's flip a coin'.
I'm just surprised you've never met anyone who doesn't flip the coin.
Rp isn't that simple there is a ton of other things to consider, and you are banking on the one slot thing, there wouldn't be a reason for that in a guild that is trying to build a rp with people. That does not sound normal at all. Cosmetic isn't going to be a reason why the other can't get in there will be plenty of stuff to get in game including legendary skins.
Rp isn't that simple there is a ton of other things to consider, and you are banking on the one slot thing, there wouldn't be a reason for that in a guild that is trying to build a rp with people. That does not sound normal at all. Cosmetic isn't going to be a reason why the other can't get in there will be plenty of stuff to get in game including legendary skins.
At this point I feel like you just lack imagination to get this point Just imaaagine that the situation Azherae presented is possible and mayhaps perchance has even happened to someone before.
Yes, it might be super rare in this particular context, but just the possibility itself justifies calling the store p2w, even if purely in the eyes of the person who was affected by the presented situation.
While we are here, obligatory "Pay To Lose Cosmetics" reference...
What is this for?
Is this gonna let me fish on my Freehold? Do I have to get a fishing thing for the freehold to use it at all? Did I Pay To Lose Money for this?
Can I even swim in it?!
(I figured I would bundle everything into one thread)
Yeah, freehold skins are such a huge question right now. And the longer Intrepid waits to explain how exactly the skins work, the more potential problems they'll have when people start realizing that they probably wasted a few hundos on a useless pixelclump.
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HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I'm still struggling to come to terms with the fact that people can be this hard up about a game that a cosmetic piece is seen as pay to win.
It sounds like they're an addict on crack or they have to have no life outside of the one on their computer screen to reach such a low mental state where their entire world revolves around the possible ownership of a pixel.
Rp isn't that simple there is a ton of other things to consider, and you are banking on the one slot thing, there wouldn't be a reason for that in a guild that is trying to build a rp with people. That does not sound normal at all. Cosmetic isn't going to be a reason why the other can't get in there will be plenty of stuff to get in game including legendary skins.
At this point I feel like you just lack imagination to get this point Just imaaagine that the situation Azherae presented is possible and mayhaps perchance has even happened to someone before.
Yes, it might be super rare in this particular context, but just the possibility itself justifies calling the store p2w, even if purely in the eyes of the person who was affected by the presented situation.
I often forget that the sort of people who 'argue' on forums have a lot of social resilience/stamina. Sometimes they don't easily realize that others might not.
What I can tell you is less rare:
"Carl has been talking about the skin he bought to RP the group's Knight of the Order for a week now and the other person who wanted to be the Knight just figures it doesn't even make any sense to consider it and starts working on their other potential part."
"Someone in charge of the RP discovers from Carl on the day of initial role assignment discussion that Carl bought the skin, and the other person is asked 'are you okay with letting Carl have it?' and they just say yes because they don't wanna be a bother."
I know the world is full of people who respond "Well if you can't stand up for yourself you can't expect to have things" and I believe I've even heard "If you have social anxiety why would you even try to play an MMO?"
Ah, empathy. When you lack enough of it, the world is much rosier because the sort of people you step on don't even squeak loud enough for you to hear...
I'm still struggling to come to terms with the fact that people can be this hard up about a game that a cosmetic piece is seen as pay to win.
It sounds like they're an addict on crack or they have to have no life outside of the one on their computer screen to reach such a low mental state where their entire world revolves around the possible ownership of a pixel.
Why do you feel the need to belittle people? Holy moly.
People don't even need to be RPers to see that OP has a fair point.
Rp isn't that simple there is a ton of other things to consider, and you are banking on the one slot thing, there wouldn't be a reason for that in a guild that is trying to build a rp with people. That does not sound normal at all. Cosmetic isn't going to be a reason why the other can't get in there will be plenty of stuff to get in game including legendary skins.
At this point I feel like you just lack imagination to get this point Just imaaagine that the situation Azherae presented is possible and mayhaps perchance has even happened to someone before.
Yes, it might be super rare in this particular context, but just the possibility itself justifies calling the store p2w, even if purely in the eyes of the person who was affected by the presented situation.
I don't im just realistic you can make up a giant story, it doesn't mean its a realistic concept. If it is a realistic concept then we should be able to find games with plenty of examples of this from guilds right?
If it is something that is rare then it wouldn't be pay to win, you just have a selective group of people that is lame and you have a shit ton of other people to interact with. So by default it is not pay to win as it is not a normal experience.
More so I don't see that happening where people will look at your character that looks liek a knight and say no we want the person with the cosmetic skin in our guild on looks alone. Over the rper that is rping and using his achievements of earned in game gear in his post showing both skill and rp.
If they both were that good RP wise
1. When I say good, I mean both can type amazing post and details of their characters and their actions when they are off having fun
2. Both good and respectable
3. Fun to be around and meshing well with the other guild members
4. Schedules both match up well with your own guild
5. Committed to helping your guild grow
So ticking off pretty much everything and the case where both the people are perfect, there is no reason why they wouldn't accept both them in their guild.
You know we both would be thinking it would be silly if people said they only let people join their guild with cosmetics. Not saying that is impossible in this day and age but that is not normal again and can't be used as a point the cash show is P2W based on that point. As ive said before they went with the extreme to get a reaction.
I'm still struggling to come to terms with the fact that people can be this hard up about a game that a cosmetic piece is seen as pay to win.
It sounds like they're an addict on crack or they have to have no life outside of the one on their computer screen to reach such a low mental state where their entire world revolves around the possible ownership of a pixel.
Why do you feel the need to belittle people? Holy moly.
People don't even need to be RPers to see that OP has a fair point.
OP as no point on P2W with cosmetics. Unless the point is their own desire to see a game without a cash shop. I am also struggling why people are even attempting to make sense of this when we know exactly what is p2w.
I'm still struggling to come to terms with the fact that people can be this hard up about a game that a cosmetic piece is seen as pay to win.
It sounds like they're an addict on crack or they have to have no life outside of the one on their computer screen to reach such a low mental state where their entire world revolves around the possible ownership of a pixel.
Why do you feel the need to belittle people? Holy moly.
People don't even need to be RPers to see that OP has a fair point.
OP's point isn't "fair" its mute/trolly at best and malicious at worst.
Rp isn't that simple there is a ton of other things to consider, and you are banking on the one slot thing, there wouldn't be a reason for that in a guild that is trying to build a rp with people. That does not sound normal at all. Cosmetic isn't going to be a reason why the other can't get in there will be plenty of stuff to get in game including legendary skins.
At this point I feel like you just lack imagination to get this point Just imaaagine that the situation Azherae presented is possible and mayhaps perchance has even happened to someone before.
Yes, it might be super rare in this particular context, but just the possibility itself justifies calling the store p2w, even if purely in the eyes of the person who was affected by the presented situation.
So ticking off pretty much everything and the case where both the people are perfect, there is no reason why they wouldn't accept both them in their guild.
You're so close! You can do it.
One storyline slot.
It often amazes me how willing people are to say, about someone's else's life experiences "That must be rare because you can't find stories of it" and "That's not true because I've never seen it happen."
But we must all advocate for those things in which we are experienced, no matter how often that happens.
I am glad that in all the RP storylines you have written and coordinated, you have never had any reason to make a tough decision about a slot, and to know that you are an upstanding Lawful Evil individual who would never make such a decision based on appearance.
Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
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HinotoriMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Why do you feel the need to belittle people? Holy moly.
People don't even need to be RPers to see that OP has a fair point.
I'm belittling their point, because I can, because it's dumb as heck and because it's been beaten more than a dead horse. I don't have to tiptoe around the fact that to me it's a stupid point of view to hold.
You know we both would be thinking it would be silly if people said they only let people join their guild with cosmetics. Not saying that is impossible in this day and age but that is not normal again and can't be used as a point the cash show is P2W based on that point. As ive said before they went with the extreme to get a reaction.
I mean, as I said several times already, I do think that kind of interaction in this particular context would be rare. But the latest Azherae post does present another situation where one person would lose out on participating in RP due to the situation she described in the post. And if someone loses, that means that someone won and in that case the winner got the win because of a bought cosmetic.
And as for "don't play with shitty people", that's a very difficult subject, especially when you're talking about peak performance in your preferred gameplay. I've played with several diskish GLs just because their guild was best on the server and I wanted to be a part of the best.
Same could be applied to hardcore RP groups. And considering the prerequisites for the situation described by Azherae, I'd assume that only the hardcorest of RPers would do that kind of thing, at which point there might not be an alternative group who's as hardcore at RP as them. And if you want to participate in the hardcorest RP around - you gotta join that dickish group who'd pick someone for their cosmetic if it matched their chosen storyline.
I've drawn a similar parallel before, but this really reminds me of dps meter and peak pve performance discussions on this forum. Noaani's standards for pve were so high that any subpar execution could get you booted out of the raid or maybe even the guild. And the same could apply to an RP group.
And that's why I believe that there are groups out there who can perceive cosmetic shops as p2w. I don't agree with their pov. I don't think they have enough people to influence the majority of players in any way. But I do understand why they have their pov. And I definitely pity them, for there is no mmo where they could RP to their fullest extent w/o any p2w influences on their actions.
edit: and on this I shall go to sleep. good talk yall
Rp isn't that simple there is a ton of other things to consider, and you are banking on the one slot thing, there wouldn't be a reason for that in a guild that is trying to build a rp with people. That does not sound normal at all. Cosmetic isn't going to be a reason why the other can't get in there will be plenty of stuff to get in game including legendary skins.
At this point I feel like you just lack imagination to get this point Just imaaagine that the situation Azherae presented is possible and mayhaps perchance has even happened to someone before.
Yes, it might be super rare in this particular context, but just the possibility itself justifies calling the store p2w, even if purely in the eyes of the person who was affected by the presented situation.
So ticking off pretty much everything and the case where both the people are perfect, there is no reason why they wouldn't accept both them in their guild.
You're so close! You can do it.
One storyline slot.
It often amazes me how willing people are to say, about someone's else's life experiences "That must be rare because you can't find stories of it" and "That's not true because I've never seen it happen."
But we must all advocate for those things in which we are experienced, no matter how often that happens.
I am glad that in all the RP storylines you have written and coordinated, you have never had any reason to make a tough decision about a slot, and to know that you are an upstanding Lawful Evil individual who would never make such a decision based on appearance.
This is a mmo you are trying to dumb it down like its some kind of online dnd campaign, you can't compare the two when it comes to a mmorpg things are different. You need plenty of players and there is going to be alot of different and strengths between players. Trying to force a very certain situation that doesn't sound realistic isn't a plus on the game is p2w. It becomes more of that situation and the different subjective taste and bias of people. Which gets into a much deeper convo that i don't feel there is much point diverging into human decisions as there is a lot more nuances to it.
It is also why I can actually make points that go the other way, as the group seees someone with a skin and they are cheating and not being a true rpers since they are buying things off the market. And should be rping and playing, getting gear in that kind of fashion.
So, I cant find where you have defined exactly what it is you are talking about here (currently on mobile, and searching on mobile is stupid).
However, my take is that you are saying the cosmetic shop can be considered pay to win based on how cosmetics intersect with RP.
If this isnt correct, could you quote yourself with your argument here?
If that is correct, the point I made earlier stands.
If Intrepid talk about how you cant purchase an advantage over other players, how nothing you buy on the cash shop will make it easier to kill another player in game, then their definition of pay to win should be fairly obvious.
As far as I can see, this is what Intrepid have done - and their definition of pay to win is exactly as I would expect the bulk of players to assume it to be.
Now, from that, what it looks like is being said is the following "this group of players that want to play the game in a different manner, and whom have appropriated the word "win" for their own purpose, to these people, purchased costumes is pay to win and so your statement that the game is not pay to win is false".
To me, this is placing words in Intrepids mouth. I see this as no different to someone like Mag arguing against what he thinks is the point others are making, rather than the point they are making.
It is taking what was said out of context, and making an argument based on that new context.
Rp isn't that simple there is a ton of other things to consider, and you are banking on the one slot thing, there wouldn't be a reason for that in a guild that is trying to build a rp with people. That does not sound normal at all. Cosmetic isn't going to be a reason why the other can't get in there will be plenty of stuff to get in game including legendary skins.
At this point I feel like you just lack imagination to get this point Just imaaagine that the situation Azherae presented is possible and mayhaps perchance has even happened to someone before.
Yes, it might be super rare in this particular context, but just the possibility itself justifies calling the store p2w, even if purely in the eyes of the person who was affected by the presented situation.
So ticking off pretty much everything and the case where both the people are perfect, there is no reason why they wouldn't accept both them in their guild.
You're so close! You can do it.
One storyline slot.
It often amazes me how willing people are to say, about someone's else's life experiences "That must be rare because you can't find stories of it" and "That's not true because I've never seen it happen."
But we must all advocate for those things in which we are experienced, no matter how often that happens.
I am glad that in all the RP storylines you have written and coordinated, you have never had any reason to make a tough decision about a slot, and to know that you are an upstanding Lawful Evil individual who would never make such a decision based on appearance.
This is a mmo you are trying to dumb it down like its some kind of online dnd campaign, you can't compare the two when it comes to a mmorpg things are different. You need plenty of players and there is going to be alot of different and strengths between players. Trying to force a very certain situation that doesn't sound realistic isn't a plus on the game is p2w. It becomes more of that situation and the different subjective taste and bias of people. Which gets into a much deeper convo that i don't feel there is much point diverging into human decisions as there is a lot more nuances to it.
It is also why I can actually make points that go the other way, as the group seees someone with a skin and they are cheating and not being a true rpers since they are buying things off the market. And should be rping and playing, getting gear in that kind of fashion.
I'm much clearer on your perspective now, I was giving every 'benefit of doubt' I could, but I believe it is now fair to say that you believe that 'An MMO should not be planned/played like a Pathfinder Campaign or something'.
I will merely hope that Steven does not agree with you based on what I understand.
Rp isn't that simple there is a ton of other things to consider, and you are banking on the one slot thing, there wouldn't be a reason for that in a guild that is trying to build a rp with people. That does not sound normal at all. Cosmetic isn't going to be a reason why the other can't get in there will be plenty of stuff to get in game including legendary skins.
At this point I feel like you just lack imagination to get this point Just imaaagine that the situation Azherae presented is possible and mayhaps perchance has even happened to someone before.
Yes, it might be super rare in this particular context, but just the possibility itself justifies calling the store p2w, even if purely in the eyes of the person who was affected by the presented situation.
So ticking off pretty much everything and the case where both the people are perfect, there is no reason why they wouldn't accept both them in their guild.
You're so close! You can do it.
One storyline slot.
It often amazes me how willing people are to say, about someone's else's life experiences "That must be rare because you can't find stories of it" and "That's not true because I've never seen it happen."
But we must all advocate for those things in which we are experienced, no matter how often that happens.
I am glad that in all the RP storylines you have written and coordinated, you have never had any reason to make a tough decision about a slot, and to know that you are an upstanding Lawful Evil individual who would never make such a decision based on appearance.
This is a mmo you are trying to dumb it down like its some kind of online dnd campaign, you can't compare the two when it comes to a mmorpg things are different. You need plenty of players and there is going to be alot of different and strengths between players. Trying to force a very certain situation that doesn't sound realistic isn't a plus on the game is p2w. It becomes more of that situation and the different subjective taste and bias of people. Which gets into a much deeper convo that i don't feel there is much point diverging into human decisions as there is a lot more nuances to it.
It is also why I can actually make points that go the other way, as the group seees someone with a skin and they are cheating and not being a true rpers since they are buying things off the market. And should be rping and playing, getting gear in that kind of fashion.
I'm much clearer on your perspective now, I was giving every 'benefit of doubt' I could, but I believe it is now fair to say that you believe that 'An MMO should not be planned/played like a Pathfinder Campaign or something'.
I will merely hope that Steven does not agree with you based on what I understand.
Nice try there, how you gear your character and the look is not the same as pathfinder. If you are using reasons from that why they are going to accept some ones character look based on art as their reason that is a silly argument to make on cosmetics being P2W. Pathfinder and a mmorpg are still different experiences and different judgements go into it you can't use that as your example of proof.
Gameplay loop is completely different, turning down potential guild members for a rp guild isn't going to come down they bought a cosmetic. I already made a point on why they would take the one without the cosmetic as that would be more rpish. You don't have a CC in a fantasy game to use real money to buy all the gear you want.
Just as for me, the Economy First player, Multiboxing is ABSOLUTELY and possibly the WORST P2W. It's just also unstoppable by most standards so eh.
Yeah, this is why I found it quite hypocritical when Iridianny said that "being able to buy additional char slots is not p2w", while asking to see her pov as a valid argument for why the cosmetics store is p2w.
Character slots and multi boxing are two different things since you cannot play two characters on the same account at the same time. They both require equal amounts of effort and time put into them separately.
Why do you feel the need to belittle people? Holy moly.
People don't even need to be RPers to see that OP has a fair point.
I'm belittling their point, because I can, because it's dumb as heck and because it's been beaten more than a dead horse. I don't have to tiptoe around the fact that to me it's a stupid point of view to hold.
Maybe you can't understand the point because you're what's dumb as heck so you resort to insults and trolling to make yourself feel better. Stop being so toxic, I can smell the sulfur through the computer screen.
Why do you feel the need to belittle people? Holy moly.
People don't even need to be RPers to see that OP has a fair point.
I'm belittling their point, because I can, because it's dumb as heck and because it's been beaten more than a dead horse. I don't have to tiptoe around the fact that to me it's a stupid point of view to hold.
Maybe you can't understand the point because you're what's dumb as heck so you resort to insults and trolling to make yourself feel better. Stop being so toxic, I can smell the sulfur through the computer screen.
Why do you feel the need to belittle people? Holy moly.
People don't even need to be RPers to see that OP has a fair point.
I'm belittling their point, because I can, because it's dumb as heck and because it's been beaten more than a dead horse. I don't have to tiptoe around the fact that to me it's a stupid point of view to hold.
Maybe you can't understand the point because you're what's dumb as heck so you resort to insults and trolling to make yourself feel better. Stop being so toxic, I can smell the sulfur through the computer screen.
Why do you feel the need to belittle people? Holy moly.
People don't even need to be RPers to see that OP has a fair point.
I'm belittling their point, because I can, because it's dumb as heck and because it's been beaten more than a dead horse. I don't have to tiptoe around the fact that to me it's a stupid point of view to hold.
Maybe you can't understand the point because you're what's dumb as heck so you resort to insults and trolling to make yourself feel better. Stop being so toxic, I can smell the sulfur through the computer screen.
Naa she is pretty smart.
Coming from you that’s not saying much.
Coming from me it means a lot actually, I'm pretty successful and im sure so is she. Yet you are here crying on the forums when 99% of people think what you are saying is actually a troll.
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Right but this isn't 'Multiboxing isn't P2W' to some people, including me.
It's just 'This is the form of P2W that we can't stop without causing harm so it's gonna be allowed'.
Getting up and saying 'Well Multiboxing isn't actually P2W' for MMOs as a whole would get... about the same response it got the last time, I think. Now that you remind me, I didn't have a parser for that thread.
Steven can define things however he wants, and definitions are absolutely based on common understanding. What I'm moreso trying to convey to some others is that there's a place one can 'come from', with a legit interest in Ashes, where Cosmetics are actually quite P2W.
Just as for me, the Economy First player, Multiboxing is ABSOLUTELY and possibly the WORST P2W. It's just also unstoppable by most standards so eh.
If I were to make a 'Multiboxing is P2W' topic (I will not), does Intrepid get a pass 'because most Fantasy MMO players don't actually care about the economy'? (making no assertion about how true that is or isn't)
I had commented on that, that is not normal even among rp and even among a mmo to be turning people away because their knight doesn't have certain pieces of gear. Which its extremely unlike they would make that set involve stuff on the store ontop of it. That isn't even about winning it is more just gate keeping at that point.
One more time.
Two people, approx equal skill at RP.
Two knights for options. One slot.
One Knight has Cosmetic, the other doesn't.
I will believe that you would go 'Well we shouldn't give any special advantage to Carl because he actually looks the part, let's flip a coin'.
I'm just surprised you've never met anyone who doesn't flip the coin.
Yeah I can see how it's true for some people. I actually don't buy too many skins, but I just had to go for the EZ win. Already looking for a new mmo
If I have the same amount of time to play the game as another nerd and we're both willing to grind the game enough to level up several artisans in different branches, but he can buy more char slots and do more stuff with them - to me, that's directly p2w. Multiboxing falls under the same concept, except I'm more accepting of it purely because in order to utilize that p2w advantage you gotta put in a loooot of money that I personally wouldn't have any time soon, while a char slot would probably cost somewhere below $30 (I'd hope).
So somewhat of a "you wouldn't say that getting obliterated by a lvl50 dude as a lvl10 dude is unfair, because the difference between you is just too big. But if a lvl15 one can still obliterate you just as much - now that's just shitty and painful" kind of thing.
Rp isn't that simple there is a ton of other things to consider, and you are banking on the one slot thing, there wouldn't be a reason for that in a guild that is trying to build a rp with people. That does not sound normal at all. Cosmetic isn't going to be a reason why the other can't get in there will be plenty of stuff to get in game including legendary skins.
What is this building for?
Is this gonna let me fish on my Freehold? Do I have to get a fishing thing for the freehold to use it at all? Did I Pay To Lose Money for this?
Can I even swim in it?!
(I figured I would bundle everything into one thread)
Yes, it might be super rare in this particular context, but just the possibility itself justifies calling the store p2w, even if purely in the eyes of the person who was affected by the presented situation.
It sounds like they're an addict on crack or they have to have no life outside of the one on their computer screen to reach such a low mental state where their entire world revolves around the possible ownership of a pixel.
I often forget that the sort of people who 'argue' on forums have a lot of social resilience/stamina. Sometimes they don't easily realize that others might not.
What I can tell you is less rare:
"Carl has been talking about the skin he bought to RP the group's Knight of the Order for a week now and the other person who wanted to be the Knight just figures it doesn't even make any sense to consider it and starts working on their other potential part."
"Someone in charge of the RP discovers from Carl on the day of initial role assignment discussion that Carl bought the skin, and the other person is asked 'are you okay with letting Carl have it?' and they just say yes because they don't wanna be a bother."
I know the world is full of people who respond "Well if you can't stand up for yourself you can't expect to have things" and I believe I've even heard "If you have social anxiety why would you even try to play an MMO?"
Ah, empathy. When you lack enough of it, the world is much rosier because the sort of people you step on don't even squeak loud enough for you to hear...
Why do you feel the need to belittle people? Holy moly.
People don't even need to be RPers to see that OP has a fair point.
I don't im just realistic you can make up a giant story, it doesn't mean its a realistic concept. If it is a realistic concept then we should be able to find games with plenty of examples of this from guilds right?
If it is something that is rare then it wouldn't be pay to win, you just have a selective group of people that is lame and you have a shit ton of other people to interact with. So by default it is not pay to win as it is not a normal experience.
More so I don't see that happening where people will look at your character that looks liek a knight and say no we want the person with the cosmetic skin in our guild on looks alone. Over the rper that is rping and using his achievements of earned in game gear in his post showing both skill and rp.
If they both were that good RP wise
1. When I say good, I mean both can type amazing post and details of their characters and their actions when they are off having fun
2. Both good and respectable
3. Fun to be around and meshing well with the other guild members
4. Schedules both match up well with your own guild
5. Committed to helping your guild grow
So ticking off pretty much everything and the case where both the people are perfect, there is no reason why they wouldn't accept both them in their guild.
You know we both would be thinking it would be silly if people said they only let people join their guild with cosmetics. Not saying that is impossible in this day and age but that is not normal again and can't be used as a point the cash show is P2W based on that point. As ive said before they went with the extreme to get a reaction.
OP as no point on P2W with cosmetics. Unless the point is their own desire to see a game without a cash shop. I am also struggling why people are even attempting to make sense of this when we know exactly what is p2w.
OP's point isn't "fair" its mute/trolly at best and malicious at worst.
Aren't we all sinners?
You're so close! You can do it.
One storyline slot.
It often amazes me how willing people are to say, about someone's else's life experiences "That must be rare because you can't find stories of it" and "That's not true because I've never seen it happen."
But we must all advocate for those things in which we are experienced, no matter how often that happens.
I am glad that in all the RP storylines you have written and coordinated, you have never had any reason to make a tough decision about a slot, and to know that you are an upstanding Lawful Evil individual who would never make such a decision based on appearance.
I'm belittling their point, because I can, because it's dumb as heck and because it's been beaten more than a dead horse. I don't have to tiptoe around the fact that to me it's a stupid point of view to hold.
And as for "don't play with shitty people", that's a very difficult subject, especially when you're talking about peak performance in your preferred gameplay. I've played with several diskish GLs just because their guild was best on the server and I wanted to be a part of the best.
Same could be applied to hardcore RP groups. And considering the prerequisites for the situation described by Azherae, I'd assume that only the hardcorest of RPers would do that kind of thing, at which point there might not be an alternative group who's as hardcore at RP as them. And if you want to participate in the hardcorest RP around - you gotta join that dickish group who'd pick someone for their cosmetic if it matched their chosen storyline.
I've drawn a similar parallel before, but this really reminds me of dps meter and peak pve performance discussions on this forum. Noaani's standards for pve were so high that any subpar execution could get you booted out of the raid or maybe even the guild. And the same could apply to an RP group.
And that's why I believe that there are groups out there who can perceive cosmetic shops as p2w. I don't agree with their pov. I don't think they have enough people to influence the majority of players in any way. But I do understand why they have their pov. And I definitely pity them, for there is no mmo where they could RP to their fullest extent w/o any p2w influences on their actions.
edit: and on this I shall go to sleep. good talk yall
This is a mmo you are trying to dumb it down like its some kind of online dnd campaign, you can't compare the two when it comes to a mmorpg things are different. You need plenty of players and there is going to be alot of different and strengths between players. Trying to force a very certain situation that doesn't sound realistic isn't a plus on the game is p2w. It becomes more of that situation and the different subjective taste and bias of people. Which gets into a much deeper convo that i don't feel there is much point diverging into human decisions as there is a lot more nuances to it.
It is also why I can actually make points that go the other way, as the group seees someone with a skin and they are cheating and not being a true rpers since they are buying things off the market. And should be rping and playing, getting gear in that kind of fashion.
@Azherae
So, I cant find where you have defined exactly what it is you are talking about here (currently on mobile, and searching on mobile is stupid).
However, my take is that you are saying the cosmetic shop can be considered pay to win based on how cosmetics intersect with RP.
If this isnt correct, could you quote yourself with your argument here?
If that is correct, the point I made earlier stands.
If Intrepid talk about how you cant purchase an advantage over other players, how nothing you buy on the cash shop will make it easier to kill another player in game, then their definition of pay to win should be fairly obvious.
As far as I can see, this is what Intrepid have done - and their definition of pay to win is exactly as I would expect the bulk of players to assume it to be.
Now, from that, what it looks like is being said is the following "this group of players that want to play the game in a different manner, and whom have appropriated the word "win" for their own purpose, to these people, purchased costumes is pay to win and so your statement that the game is not pay to win is false".
To me, this is placing words in Intrepids mouth. I see this as no different to someone like Mag arguing against what he thinks is the point others are making, rather than the point they are making.
It is taking what was said out of context, and making an argument based on that new context.
I'm much clearer on your perspective now, I was giving every 'benefit of doubt' I could, but I believe it is now fair to say that you believe that 'An MMO should not be planned/played like a Pathfinder Campaign or something'.
I will merely hope that Steven does not agree with you based on what I understand.
Nice try there, how you gear your character and the look is not the same as pathfinder. If you are using reasons from that why they are going to accept some ones character look based on art as their reason that is a silly argument to make on cosmetics being P2W. Pathfinder and a mmorpg are still different experiences and different judgements go into it you can't use that as your example of proof.
Gameplay loop is completely different, turning down potential guild members for a rp guild isn't going to come down they bought a cosmetic. I already made a point on why they would take the one without the cosmetic as that would be more rpish. You don't have a CC in a fantasy game to use real money to buy all the gear you want.
Everyone bought rulebooks - I bought loaded dice. My characters are now loaded.
Character slots and multi boxing are two different things since you cannot play two characters on the same account at the same time. They both require equal amounts of effort and time put into them separately.
Maybe you can't understand the point because you're what's dumb as heck so you resort to insults and trolling to make yourself feel better. Stop being so toxic, I can smell the sulfur through the computer screen.
Naa she is pretty smart.
Coming from you that’s not saying much.
Coming from me it means a lot actually, I'm pretty successful and im sure so is she. Yet you are here crying on the forums when 99% of people think what you are saying is actually a troll.