That's just because his profile pic is an old dude and he has a bunch of titles that shows he's spent a lot of money on this game already. Of course he's invested in his literal investment.
Nah, it's cause Dygz is literally an old man. Definitely one of the older (if not one of the oldest) members of this forum. He has a shitton of real mmo experience and usually a drastically different pov on most things. But what's most important in this context, is that his pov on this subject is the closest to yours out of everyone who's been in this thread.
I feel so validated when I see that Dygz disagrees with this position
So simpy XD
Dygz is the "father" of the forums. The longer im here the more i see it
That's just because his profile pic is an old dude and he has a bunch of titles that shows he's spent a lot of money on this game already. Of course he's invested in his literal investment.
@Mag7spy and everyone else... why would Steven promise that the "most grand" cosmetics will be from in game achievement only if my original point wasn't relevant?
Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.
Uhm yea, duh. Competition isn’t all there is to a role playing game bud. Ask Steven if his entire goal for this game was just it be a “big competition” and I’d imagine it wasn’t. It’s in a lot of ways an adventure game.
You are the one who is claiming that cosmetics allow us to win something.
Personal progression is not competitive and does not allows us to win anything.
You have personal objectives you wish to achieve. A cosmetics shop does not prevent you from achieving personal visual progression goals - especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game.
win verb
\ ˈwin \
won\ ˈwən \; winning
Definition of win (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1a: to get possession of by effort or fortune
b: to obtain by work : EARN
Winning is not always competitive with other people, sometimes its a personal competition or achievement.
"especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game" - I mean this helps if it follows this path, but they aren't exactly the same item if they have a different appearance.
With this definition... you can win a cosmetic... but a cosmetic does not make you win......
Winning something is literally "winning"...
The reward itself, does not define the act of winning.
"Now, thanks to this pants skin, i have won".... no. No you havnt. Having that skin has not obtained anything further for you. It has not "gained possession of" something more for you. Winning may gain you a cosmetic. Having a cosmetic is not wining.
@NiKr Just because he's another rper doesn't mean we should have the same perspective on this... do you think that about all groups of people. It's very stereotype-y.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
win verb
\ ˈwin \
won\ ˈwən \; winning
Definition of win (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1a: to get possession of by effort or fortune
b: to obtain by work : EARN
Winning is not always competitive with other people, sometimes its a personal competition or achievement.
"especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game" - I mean this helps if it follows this path, but they aren't exactly the same item if they have a different appearance.
Um. Personal progression is... personal. Not competitive.
Uhm yea, duh. Competition isn’t all there is to a role playing game bud. Ask Steven if his entire goal for this game was just it be a “big competition” and I’d imagine it wasn’t. It’s in a lot of ways an adventure game.
The entire games principles are designed around competition. o.O
If you get satisfaction from achieving cosmetics that's awesome. If other people's cosmetic store purchases prevent or diminish your satisfaction then are you not being a tad petty? You shouldn't need other peoples characters to look a certain way in order to validate your personal accomplishments. Their your accomplishments and my credit card can't take that away from you.
Which is the greater folly, summoning the demon or expecting gratitude from it?
Just because he's another rper doesn't mean we should have the same perspective on this... do you think that about all groups of people. It's very stereotype-y.
And I didn't say that you should have the same perspective. I said that he's the only one who's closest to potentially understanding your perspective. But from your exchange of comments it's obvious that your pov is as far from his as from anyone else in this thread.
I just thought that I failed to understand your pov due to my limited knowledge of RP, but it wasn't because of that (because Dygz has way more knowledge and still didn't agree), it was because your pov is so extremely opposite to the absolute majority of people I know (both on and outside of this forum).
win verb
\ ˈwin \
won\ ˈwən \; winning
Definition of win (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1a: to get possession of by effort or fortune
b: to obtain by work : EARN
Winning is not always competitive with other people, sometimes its a personal competition or achievement.
"especially since everything in the cosmetics shop has a corresponding item that can be earned in game" - I mean this helps if it follows this path, but they aren't exactly the same item if they have a different appearance.
@Dygz Yea if you read what I said, there are multiple perspectives, multiple definitions, and multiple progression paths in this game. If you don't like the first definition of win, that's fine, but it's still the first one and they are both relevant.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
And meaningless. Doesn't help you sell your perspective.
Why would Steven promise that the "most grand" cosmetics will be from in game achievement only if my original point wasn't relevant?
Because that promise is the literal proof that cosmetic store is not p2w? Because in Steven's eyes, if the "best looking, most glorious, insanely amazing" cosmetic is earned in-game and not through the store - then the store cannot be p2w by definition.
So you not only disagree with our definition of p2w, but Steven's too. Otherwise he wouldn't have to promise people that exact thing.
And what perspective are you offering? That having a different one than yours about what achievement means in a roleplaying game is wrong? Take that up with Steven, he made it too open ended to meet the standard, "i push button number goes up that means i won," and that's why this game is exciting. Evolve past that old boring mentality.
Why would Steven promise that the "most grand" cosmetics will be from in game achievement only if my original point wasn't relevant?
Because that promise is the literal proof that cosmetic store is not p2w? Because in Steven's eyes, if the "best looking, most glorious, insanely amazing" cosmetic is earned in-game and not through the store - then the store cannot be p2w by definition.
So you not only disagree with our definition of p2w, but Steven's too. Otherwise he wouldn't have to promise people that exact thing.
The BEST cosmetics is COMPLETLEY subjective, how did you forget that? So if there is no way to objectively determine what the best cosmetics are... in his and your own words, it's p2w.
Why would Steven promise that the "most grand" cosmetics will be from in game achievement only if my original point wasn't relevant?
Because that promise is the literal proof that cosmetic store is not p2w? Because in Steven's eyes, if the "best looking, most glorious, insanely amazing" cosmetic is earned in-game and not through the store - then the store cannot be p2w by definition.
So you not only disagree with our definition of p2w, but Steven's too. Otherwise he wouldn't have to promise people that exact thing.
The BEST cosmetics is COMPLETLEY subjective, how did you forget that? So if there is no way to objectively determine what the best cosmetics are... in his and your own words, it's p2w.
Maybe they are the best cosmetics because anyone who gets close to you while you have them equipt, they destroy the other peoples cosmetics.
@Noaani people use this term of win all them time… it’s not outdated. “I’m winning” is a common phrase to describe when people are achieving their personal goals all the time. The most pure form of winning has always been viewed as to beat your previous self rather than to beat someone else.
Taken from a quote on the AOC Wiki:
"A lot of the systems in Lineage 2 were based around a concept that got lost today in mmorpgs, and that's risk versus reward. You know this idea that the more you risk the greater potential reward should be present is a complete paradigm shift away from everyone's a winner, everybody gets a participation reward, and here you go, congratulations you're a player in this game; and that's boring. It gives nothing for a person to aspire to achieve something, or to feel the bite of loss when you fail. Those are the driving forces of why people want to play games..."
I can see how the concept of "risk versus reward" has been somewhat ignored when it comes to purchasable cosmetics. You don't have to risk anything in the game to gain (some) specific cosmetics.. all you have to do is open your wallet. Items/cosmetics are a HUGE part of MMORPGs and to have so many variants only purchasable through the store is disappointing
Please don't get me wrong... I can see how a cosmetic shop is beneficial for Intrepid Studios and allows players to support the company monetarily. I get that. It is just unfortunate that it comes at the cost of hindering visual progression and kinda disregards those players that view visual progression as a form of "winning" in the game. "...everyone's a winner, everybody gets a participation reward, and here you go, congratulations you're a player in this game..."
Just spend a little money in the shop and YOU can be a "winner"...
Why would Steven promise that the "most grand" cosmetics will be from in game achievement only if my original point wasn't relevant?
Because that promise is the literal proof that cosmetic store is not p2w? Because in Steven's eyes, if the "best looking, most glorious, insanely amazing" cosmetic is earned in-game and not through the store - then the store cannot be p2w by definition.
So you not only disagree with our definition of p2w, but Steven's too. Otherwise he wouldn't have to promise people that exact thing.
The BEST cosmetics is COMPLETLEY subjective, how did you forget that? So if there is no way to objectively determine what the best cosmetics are... in his and your own words, it's p2w.
This is the argument she has been waiting 8 pages of arguments to make. Its all completely subjective.
If its all completely subjective it both can not be, and is p2w. Its schrodinger's p2w.
The most grand looking cosmetics will be from in-game achievment only.[9] – Steven Sharif https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics
Why would Steven promise that the "most grand" cosmetics will be from in game achievement only if my original point wasn't relevant?
Because that promise is the literal proof that cosmetic store is not p2w? Because in Steven's eyes, if the "best looking, most glorious, insanely amazing" cosmetic is earned in-game and not through the store - then the store cannot be p2w by definition.
The "BEST cosmetics" is COMPLETLEY subjective, how did you forget that? So if there is no way to objectively determine what the best cosmetics are... in his and your own words, it's p2w.
This is really the only argument I ever needed to make... wow it was that easy.
The most grand looking cosmetics will be from in-game achievment only.[9] – Steven Sharif https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics
Why would Steven promise that the "most grand" cosmetics will be from in game achievement only if my original point wasn't relevant?
Because that promise is the literal proof that cosmetic store is not p2w? Because in Steven's eyes, if the "best looking, most glorious, insanely amazing" cosmetic is earned in-game and not through the store - then the store cannot be p2w by definition.
The "BEST cosmetics" is COMPLETLEY subjective, how did you forget that? So if there is no way to objectively determine what the best cosmetics are... in his and your own words, it's p2w.
This is really the only argument I ever needed to make... wow it was that easy.
The most grand looking cosmetics will be from in-game achievment only.[9] – Steven Sharif https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics
Why would Steven promise that the "most grand" cosmetics will be from in game achievement only if my original point wasn't relevant?
Because that promise is the literal proof that cosmetic store is not p2w? Because in Steven's eyes, if the "best looking, most glorious, insanely amazing" cosmetic is earned in-game and not through the store - then the store cannot be p2w by definition.
The "BEST cosmetics" is COMPLETLEY subjective, how did you forget that? So if there is no way to objectively determine what the best cosmetics are... in his and your own words, it's p2w.
This is really the only argument I ever needed to make... wow it was that easy.
For your definition, and worry for visual progression and p2w... yes.... but as steven himself says, ashes has no pay2win... so they dont agree with your definition of p2w.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
And what perspective are you offering? That having a different one than yours about what achievement means in a roleplaying game is wrong? Take that up with Steven, he made it too open ended to meet the standard, "i push button number goes up that means i won," and that's why this game is exciting. Evolve past that old boring mentality.
I mean... take it up with Steven that you think the Cosmetics Shop is P2W.
I think I already agreed with you that the Cosmetics Shop feels to me similar to P2W and P4 Convenience.
Steven's brag about Ashes not being P2W doesn't feel particularly meaningful for me.
But... cosmetics don't allow you to win or lose anything, objectively.
If you think, in your own head, that they help people win... and that people without cosmetics lose... OK.
No skin off my back.
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leameseMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The BEST cosmetics is COMPLETLEY subjective, how did you forget that? So if there is no way to objectively determine what the best cosmetics are... in his and your own words, it's p2w.
Oh, I didn't forget that. I said "not only ours, but Steven's too" exactly because for Steven it seems to be an objective thing. I personally disagree with him because I couldn't care less about cosmetics and hate that other people do so much that studios implemented transmog as a feature. But apparently enough people do agree with his pov, which is why you're in the minority who disagrees with it for other reasons than mine.
But as you said, no one can determine which one is the best, so there's no basis for calling it p2w. And as I've said in another post, the only way to call the existence of the cosmetic store p2w is to say that you want a very specific item from it. But we have 0 fucking clue which items it'll have (and as Dygz said, most items will just be variants of particular gear pieces), so right now you're just fighting imaginary potentials of what said shop could have instead of a concrete concept/design/feature that has been shown already.
Comments
He knows all.
The reward itself, does not define the act of winning.
"Now, thanks to this pants skin, i have won".... no. No you havnt. Having that skin has not obtained anything further for you. It has not "gained possession of" something more for you. Winning may gain you a cosmetic. Having a cosmetic is not wining.
verb
1. be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict).
"the Mets have won four games in a row"
2. acquire or secure as a result of a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor.
noun
a successful result in a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor; a victory.
Helps what?
Cosmetics don't help people win anything.
But, I'm still trying to understand what it is you want to do that a Cosmetic Shop doesn't allow you to achieve.
The entire games principles are designed around competition. o.O
If you get satisfaction from achieving cosmetics that's awesome. If other people's cosmetic store purchases prevent or diminish your satisfaction then are you not being a tad petty? You shouldn't need other peoples characters to look a certain way in order to validate your personal accomplishments. Their your accomplishments and my credit card can't take that away from you.
I just thought that I failed to understand your pov due to my limited knowledge of RP, but it wasn't because of that (because Dygz has way more knowledge and still didn't agree), it was because your pov is so extremely opposite to the absolute majority of people I know (both on and outside of this forum).
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxxT-Hu_3yB_wbEhWoBKLI4lkE6rCLbZ59
Oh damn, papa's posting definitions
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Cosmetics
Why would Steven promise that the "most grand" cosmetics will be from in game achievement only if my original point wasn't relevant?
Because they want to show that good cosmetics are not ONLY in the shop, because that would make your concerns relevant.
So you not only disagree with our definition of p2w, but Steven's too. Otherwise he wouldn't have to promise people that exact thing.
She doesnt want to convince anyone......... she says this every time this comes up. Then the argument continues.
The BEST cosmetics is COMPLETLEY subjective, how did you forget that? So if there is no way to objectively determine what the best cosmetics are... in his and your own words, it's p2w.
Maybe they are the best cosmetics because anyone who gets close to you while you have them equipt, they destroy the other peoples cosmetics.
Taken from a quote on the AOC Wiki:
"A lot of the systems in Lineage 2 were based around a concept that got lost today in mmorpgs, and that's risk versus reward. You know this idea that the more you risk the greater potential reward should be present is a complete paradigm shift away from everyone's a winner, everybody gets a participation reward, and here you go, congratulations you're a player in this game; and that's boring. It gives nothing for a person to aspire to achieve something, or to feel the bite of loss when you fail. Those are the driving forces of why people want to play games..."
I can see how the concept of "risk versus reward" has been somewhat ignored when it comes to purchasable cosmetics. You don't have to risk anything in the game to gain (some) specific cosmetics.. all you have to do is open your wallet. Items/cosmetics are a HUGE part of MMORPGs and to have so many variants only purchasable through the store is disappointing
Please don't get me wrong... I can see how a cosmetic shop is beneficial for Intrepid Studios and allows players to support the company monetarily. I get that. It is just unfortunate that it comes at the cost of hindering visual progression and kinda disregards those players that view visual progression as a form of "winning" in the game.
"...everyone's a winner, everybody gets a participation reward, and here you go, congratulations you're a player in this game..."
Just spend a little money in the shop and YOU can be a "winner"...
This is the argument she has been waiting 8 pages of arguments to make. Its all completely subjective.
If its all completely subjective it both can not be, and is p2w. Its schrodinger's p2w.
This is really the only argument I ever needed to make... wow it was that easy.
but isn't that only argument just subjective?
For your definition, and worry for visual progression and p2w... yes.... but as steven himself says, ashes has no pay2win... so they dont agree with your definition of p2w.
I think I already agreed with you that the Cosmetics Shop feels to me similar to P2W and P4 Convenience.
Steven's brag about Ashes not being P2W doesn't feel particularly meaningful for me.
But... cosmetics don't allow you to win or lose anything, objectively.
If you think, in your own head, that they help people win... and that people without cosmetics lose... OK.
No skin off my back.
But as you said, no one can determine which one is the best, so there's no basis for calling it p2w. And as I've said in another post, the only way to call the existence of the cosmetic store p2w is to say that you want a very specific item from it. But we have 0 fucking clue which items it'll have (and as Dygz said, most items will just be variants of particular gear pieces), so right now you're just fighting imaginary potentials of what said shop could have instead of a concrete concept/design/feature that has been shown already.
If it makes you laugh, like the posts, some of us are trying to farm likes here. Poor @Dolyem
The worst kind of correct.