Corruption system in relation to auto-flagging in open sea

This is not a post about if auto-flagging is good or not, or about preference between the two.
It is about the corruption system and the logic inconsistency of applying this system.
(for transparency, I would prefer the complete removal of this system, but what irks me more is the logic inconsistency)

The corruption system was presented as a tool that complies with the risk-vs-reward philosophy.

E.g. an attacker risks becoming corrupted if he kills a player that doesn't fight back and the defender risks losing much more loot if he doesn't fight back.
Both sides are risking in order to get rewarded.

In the open-sea, as Steven mentioned in the stream, the rewards will be grater and the risk needs to be higher.
Is the corruption system unable to handle that?
If the reward is more valuable, wouldn't that make the attacker more willing to become corrupted and the defender more willing to fight back to minimize his loses?

Why is now the corruption system presented as an obstacle to the risk-vs-reward philosophy for open-sea content?

In the open-sea now, with the auto-flagging, what is the risk for the attackers? E.g. if let's say 3 ships that are co-operating spot 1 ship, why wouldn't they attack? Where is the risk?
How are the bounty hunters affected by this change? Would they be able to hunt corrupted players in the open-sea?
Contrary to what Steven said, this change is actually going against the risk-vs-reward philosophy. If you outnumber the enemy, there is no risk in attacking.

You cannot treat the corruption system as a helpful tool for land content and as an obstacle for open-sea content.. those things cannot be true at the same time, just because the ground changes!

When you need to add exceptions to a system, in order to make the content fun, then maybe that system is not good enough.
If it is good enough, use it everywhere.. if it is not, remove it from everywhere!

The approach Intrepid is taking makes no sense.

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Okeydoke

Steven has already given a reason why. The reason given is sufficient for me. I think he could give more reasoning behind it and I think he should.

CROW3

Dolyem wrote: »

Said this in the other discussion answering your why, as far as what I can guess anyway

Yep - I saw that. Very well could be right. You and I could probably cobble together a solid justification given the lore and world, but that's just us playing with what we've been given. I just want to hear more from Intrepid.

Dolyem

CROW3 wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

Said this in the other discussion answering your why, as far as what I can guess anyway

Yep - I saw that. Very well could be right. You and I could probably cobble together a solid justification given the lore and world, but that's just us playing with what we've been given. I just want to hear more from Intrepid.

I am totally down for that. Also if you want, I can show you some cool stuff I have done with the new map!

Sathrago

No harsh feelings with this, just thought it would be funny. Yall really got into this discussion.

Dygz

Asgerr wrote: »

I'm saying the game isn't for hardcore PvE players. It's for players who want the mix of PvP and PvE ergo PvX.

Territorial waters and for PvX, with a leaning towards PvE. International waters are PvX with a leaning towards PvP.

The game is still respecting its own risk vs reward philosophy. Just applying it differently to different areas. How is that breaking the original ideal?

Right. And it's being flagged as Non-Combatant by default with the risk of Corruption if someone that makes it PvX and that is the compromise that allows me to play the game.
If the entire map is not PvX - if there are zones on the map where, when I want to explore, I am auto-flagged for PvP and there is no Corruption... I'm just not going to play that game.

Again, I specifically asked Steven about the Ashes PvP philosophy compared to EvE Online and ArcheAge.
And I specifically asked about ArcheAge because the naval combat of ArcheAge is what caused me to not play that game. This new change does not conform with the answers Steven gave me in 2018.

Dygz: EvE is a murderbox for me.

Steven: Well, EvE is a murderbox if you choose to go to the appropriate sectors, right?

Dygz: I don't know. I stay away from EvE because it's too PvP-centric for me. So... are you hoping Ashes will be at the same PvP level as EvE? Or are you hoping for something different?

Steven: Well, no. It is different, right? My hopes with regard to our battle is that it is meaningful. So, that means it is a decision on behalf of the risk taker whether or not the reward is worthy of the risk...and then, additionally, as a player who might be on the receiving end of a PK, they are aware that this choice of an opponent directly impacts them probably more than it impacts the death of their character. And I think there is a recourse for that character who got killed to go out and pursue that murderer as well and exact ther revenge and also participate with others in their community who are Bounty Hunters that will have an oppportunity to locate in real-time the position of that player on the map and that will sort of, kind of limit the ability of those players to really go out and cause havoc.

We compared Ashes with EvE's designated sectors. Steven indicted Ashes would not be like that in a variety of ways.
Now he is saying Ashes will be like EvE.
So... it's not really possible for Steven to be still respecting the original risk v reward philosophy.

Dygz: What about in comparison to ArcheAge??

Steven: Well, ArcheAge... You pretty much knew in any territory that you went to what the system of PvP mechanics were, whether it was a peace zone or whether it was a PvP zone, so...if you were to take risks, it was of your time and choosing, depending on how you moved your packs and what zones you went through in order to move them.
So, that really doesn't relate well to what Ashes is trying to do. Because Ashes is an open world and there are no zoned flagged PvP areas. Instead there is just a flagging system that relates to the other players.

Again...I asked Steven how the Ashes PvP philosphy compares to ArcheAge. The answer was it doesn't relate well because ArcheAge as zones with different PvP mechanics, whereas Ashes only has the one flagging system everywhere.

Now, Steven has said that Ashes will have mechanics like EvE Online and ArcheAge.
It now has the mechanics and features that made me not want to play those games.
"Just applying it to different areas" is a significant change from the original PvP philosphy. It's now too close to EvE Online and ArcheAge for my playstyle.

Savic Prosperity

i think i dont mind this at in the context of 2 things, one being steven mentioning on the youtube post about having a form of auto paths to afk travel safely between the lands. (im hoping this is fairly slow in comparison) so its not going to always be a 100% attention to go from point A to B. (also cause the ocean stuff kinda scares me cause i can see me traveling and getting assaulted by a shark and panicking instead of fighting it off lmao)

and the 2nd is, generally speaking, ship style combat has always been more of a group thing and not a solo thing so i doubt you'd get as much annoying ganking to happen since theres a lot of people out there who would be looking for the next crew to fight, win or lose. This actually makes it more likely i would partake in this with a group of friends/guildies since i wouldnt ever do it on my own anyway

i imagine if there is a single person ship for traveling (not a water mount) it probably would be fast enough to escape the big war ships anyway since it wouldnt be lugging anything

Sathrago

For those that have not seen this yet, Steven did a bit more explaining here.

Sathrago

Savic wrote: »

i think i dont mind this at in the context of 2 things, one being steven mentioning on the youtube post about having a form of auto paths to afk travel safely between the lands. (im hoping this is fairly slow in comparison) so its not going to always be a 100% attention to go from point A to B. (also cause the ocean stuff kinda scares me cause i can see me traveling and getting assaulted by a shark and panicking instead of fighting it off lmao)

and the 2nd is, generally speaking, ship style combat has always been more of a group thing and not a solo thing so i doubt you'd get as much annoying ganking to happen since theres a lot of people out there who would be looking for the next crew to fight, win or lose. This actually makes it more likely i would partake in this with a group of friends/guildies since i wouldnt ever do it on my own anyway

i imagine if there is a single person ship for traveling (not a water mount) it probably would be fast enough to escape the big war ships anyway since it wouldnt be lugging anything

Just here to post said youtube comment. *flies away*

Dygz

Yep. We only posted that in the other kinda similar thread.
Could be useful here, too.
Thanks!

Dygz

Yep. We posted that around page 6.
Doesn't hurt to post in again.

Savic Prosperity

from reading some of the comments i can understand the concern as it is a slippery slope of what drives the decision making and thus how would it extrapolate into the future

as a largely non pvp player if i felt it was inconsistent with what is and isnt a corruption enforced zone it would be quite annoying and thus the discussions now rather than later

i personally would need to just see the systems all interacting at once to see how it all feels before getting mad or happy with it but it comes across to me currently as just its an area outside the law influence of nodes thus it doesnt have rules since the nodes dont reach there -- even if this isnt the thought behind it it's just how i understood it as it is for now

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not going to play a game where I auto-flag to Combatant just because I want to explore an area.

@Dygz

To be fair, I have been telling you for years that Ashes is not the game for you.

The fact that this small (and expected, tbh) change is all it took for you to realize this is actually somewhat refreshing.

Dygz

Well, it was...until it wasn't.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Well, it was...until it wasn't.

This announcement is straight up not a surprise to me. It isn't something I would have ever got in to a discussion with you about - because I knew full well you would pull up the discussion you posted a few posts above, and without something specifically from Steven, I would have nothing to say in reply other than "this is my expectation".

As such, all I was left with was a fairly hollow "based on discussions with you for many years, based on knowing what the goal of this game is, and based on having known Steven (peripherally) as a gamer, this game is probably not for you".

Dygz

Actually, it was always contingent on testing how well Corruption works in Alpha 2, so... your impression wasn't all that different from mine...
It's always been...I'll wait to see...but...

Now I don't have to wait until Alpha 2 to know.

NaughtyBrute

Oh, come on @Dygz .. I don't know you, but if you don't mind me saying, you are overreacting just a bit

As @Noaani said, this will probably just affect a small portion of the map.. And isn't it good to have a break in pace? a dangerous area where you will need to think twice before entering? the sea will be dark & full of terrors!

I say follow your initial plan of waiting for Alpha 2 to know

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Actually, it was always contingent on testing how well Corruption works in Alpha 2, so... your impression wasn't all that different from mine...
It's always been...I'll wait to see...but...

Now I don't have to wait until Alpha 2 to know.

Fair enough.

Hopefully Darkpaw make another MMO.

Dygz

NaughtyBrute wrote: »

Isn't it good to have a break in pace? a dangerous area where you will need to think twice before entering? the sea will be dark & full of terrors!

Nope. That's not the gameplay I enjoy.
PvPers enjoy that.
I am a carebear, casual challenge/hardcore time player... who sometimes enjoys manually flagging for PvP... but, really, I don't like to play MMORPGs on the same servers as PvPers.

Corruption was a possible compromise to get me to try it, but... zones where we are auto-flagged as Combatant and there is no Corruption, especially where there are unique NPCs and unique treasure-finding opportunities, is a deal-breaker for me.

I don't need Alpha 2 to help me determine that.

George_Black

Beta 1 then?

Okeydoke

Can I have your stuff Dygz. I'll buy your account. I wish I had a kickstarter account

(Yes I know this is against the rules I'm joking.) But holy fuck the trolling I'd do on this forum with the Dygz name. Hit em with the LMFAO and then the Ben ROFLisberger oh god it'd be epic.

Truthfully it is kind of hard to see how this game is for you. You are just so anti pvp unless you want it in that specific moment. I love pvp and even I expect to wind up in pvp at times I don't want it in this game. But you seem to just have near zero tolerance.

But I don't think you're quitting. I think you'll at least give it a try. Maybe I'm wrong.

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