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Corruption system in relation to auto-flagging in open sea

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Comments

  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Fantmx wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Fantmx wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Fantmx wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Here you go again with the "THE CORRUPTION SYSTEM HAS FAILED!". It is literally just a different zone with different rules. It still maintains a focus on PVP and PVE. It's just more PVP to add more risk.

    If we can have zones with different rules for free for all pvp, why can't we have zones with different rules for no pvp at all?

    Because that isn't PVX

    How so? How is it not as much a part of pvx as ffa pvp?

    No PvP is just PVE.
    Autoflagged PVP in a PVE zone with PVE incentives is PVX

    I understand that if what I was saying is make an entire server pve. But that's not what I'm asking about. How does having mostly middle ground with corruption with two areas for the opposite poles of ffa pvp and no pvp not still leave Ashes as a whole a pvx game? Why does either side have to have all or nothing? Ashes should be about balance if it is going to succeed in bringing these two very different populations together.

    I'm still playing either way.

    Because all aspects should be PvX. I understand what you're saying, but the polar opposite to your PVE zone would be a zone exclusively for PVP, not a PVE area that autoflags PVP. Am I explaining this well enough?
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »

    Oh yes, I am sure you do.

    I do indeed. And that's my playstyle. Your playstyle you'd much rather not deal with the problem players. I make it a mission to beat them. Nothing wrong with either of us. In a way it creates a game ecosystem. They go after you, I go after them. It's the circleeeee of lifeeeeee!

    Except that I am now also considering not playing.

    And if enough of 'me' and 'Dygz' don't play, there's no circle anymore.

    And while that is regrettable, not all like you will quit. And if it helps any, despite my bloodthirsty outlook for PVP, I would be willing to have yall play and make sure you don't have to deal with as much open pvp as possible. I want you guys to have fun, and by pvping for you guys I think that sounds fun to me as well :)

    I'm not saying that you should stop supporting a change that makes the game better for you. I'm saying that you should consider what level of changes are capable of making the game better for 'no one' by bringing the population of willing players too low for it to sustain itself.

    It's not like this never happens. In the precise situation given, we are looking at 'a change that we don't see a reason for which may reduce the population of players to sustain the game'. Even just demographics wise, there are less 'of you' than there are 'of Dygz' and probably less 'of you' than they are 'of me'.

    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    That depends entirely on the studios goal. If they are trying to maintain a population of millions of players like wow, it's likely not as beneficial. But if they aren't worried with how many play and simply want to make the game they want to play, even if that means having only a couple servers, then the change is completely fine. And honestly, most games that failed in this way did so because they didn't provide ANY safety for PVEers. But at least with this game, you get to be safe where the core systems are utilized and can choose if you want to venture into the zone which you dislike or not.

    And I agree with this completely. That's why I asked somewhere earlier if Steven was actually trying to make a 'bigger than ArcheAge' game or not.

    If Intrepid isn't aiming that high, then it's a non-issue. The approach taken to those who disagree with this decision is correct. There's not much point in 'letting those people think that they will enjoy Ashes' and then they leave and everything looks like it is failing. Stable population is important.

    I'm simply pointing out to anyone who didn't understand the potential reasoning. If the response is 'well don't play then', that's great, no sarcasm at all. I just wanted to make sure that the 'don't play then' wasn't based on 'you're not interested in PvP so don't play' and closer to 'You don't want to be annoyed by a higher population of griefer-minds, so don't play' (in your case, you find those people to be good content and I don't, as example).
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »

    Oh yes, I am sure you do.

    I do indeed. And that's my playstyle. Your playstyle you'd much rather not deal with the problem players. I make it a mission to beat them. Nothing wrong with either of us. In a way it creates a game ecosystem. They go after you, I go after them. It's the circleeeee of lifeeeeee!

    Except that I am now also considering not playing.

    And if enough of 'me' and 'Dygz' don't play, there's no circle anymore.

    And while that is regrettable, not all like you will quit. And if it helps any, despite my bloodthirsty outlook for PVP, I would be willing to have yall play and make sure you don't have to deal with as much open pvp as possible. I want you guys to have fun, and by pvping for you guys I think that sounds fun to me as well :)

    I'm not saying that you should stop supporting a change that makes the game better for you. I'm saying that you should consider what level of changes are capable of making the game better for 'no one' by bringing the population of willing players too low for it to sustain itself.

    It's not like this never happens. In the precise situation given, we are looking at 'a change that we don't see a reason for which may reduce the population of players to sustain the game'. Even just demographics wise, there are less 'of you' than there are 'of Dygz' and probably less 'of you' than they are 'of me'.

    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    That depends entirely on the studios goal. If they are trying to maintain a population of millions of players like wow, it's likely not as beneficial. But if they aren't worried with how many play and simply want to make the game they want to play, even if that means having only a couple servers, then the change is completely fine. And honestly, most games that failed in this way did so because they didn't provide ANY safety for PVEers. But at least with this game, you get to be safe where the core systems are utilized and can choose if you want to venture into the zone which you dislike or not.

    And I agree with this completely. That's why I asked somewhere earlier if Steven was actually trying to make a 'bigger than ArcheAge' game or not.

    If Intrepid isn't aiming that high, then it's a non-issue. The approach taken to those who disagree with this decision is correct. There's not much point in 'letting those people think that they will enjoy Ashes' and then they leave and everything looks like it is failing. Stable population is important.

    I'm simply pointing out to anyone who didn't understand the potential reasoning. If the response is 'well don't play then', that's great, no sarcasm at all. I just wanted to make sure that the 'don't play then' wasn't based on 'you're not interested in PvP so don't play' and closer to 'You don't want to be annoyed by a higher population of griefer-minds, so don't play' (in your case, you find those people to be good content and I don't, as example).

    Yes, we are on the same page. The way I look at ashes future honestly is that, to me, it will be an amazing PVX mmo, and if they pull it off it will likely be my favorite game. That being said, I don't know if it will be the most popular MMO simply because it's design isn't intended to take everyone into account, it's being designed for players who enjoy both PVE and PVP.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    Guild wars and node wars, battlegrounds included where players can kill them without corruption.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    I believe your argument here is close to 'saying that Dygz and I are rare'?

    Dygz has specific interest in at least two of those things and I have interest in three.

    I am 'in the group of people who don't like this change but were explicitly looking forward to all those other things'. Am I correct in my understanding?

    I see no reason for complexity with ships, because the Corruption system only works based on kills right now anyway, and if Naval Content is anything like ArcheAge according to my research, the ship goes down LAST. I don't understand what you are seeing. Corruption is for KILLS, not attacks. Where is the awkwardness?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • XiraelAcaronXiraelAcaron Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    For technical problems technical solutions can be found. They should be discussed. If this was the reason for the change this solution sounds lazy to me.
    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    Very many. And very many never considered Ashes because of these mechanics (I am not saying they should be removed). And now they are doubling down deesign-wise without a good reasoning apart from the almighty 'risk-vs-reward' where many cannot see what this has to do with corruption. So for many that stuck around and swallowed all these lemons, this will be the last drop. That is what I fear.
    You have to remember that the corruption system is kind of the holy grail of the PvE player. Touch it at your own peril.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    I believe your argument here is close to 'saying that Dygz and I are rare'?

    Dygz has specific interest in at least two of those things and I have interest in three.

    I am 'in the group of people who don't like this change but were explicitly looking forward to all those other things'. Am I correct in my understanding?

    I see no reason for complexity with ships, because the Corruption system only works based on kills right now anyway, and if Naval Content is anything like ArcheAge according to my research, the ship goes down LAST. I don't understand what you are seeing. Corruption is for KILLS, not attacks. Where is the awkwardness?

    In regards to corruption and ship pvp, I think he means if there is someone on a ship killed by a player or a few on another ship with many players, it could entail possibly corrupting the entirety of the ships crew when they didn't want it to happen.
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • one word: pirates

    :smile:
  • XiraelAcaronXiraelAcaron Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    I know this change does not change how corruption works on land, but the univerality of the the corruption system is considered part of it by many PvE players.

    Edit: I meant PvE players, of course.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two

    For technical problems technical solutions can be found. They should be discussed. If this was the reason for the change this solution sounds lazy to me.

    I'd assume that they implemented it, and once they tested perhaps made a judgement call saying that having to flag for this content was bad gameplay
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    I believe your argument here is close to 'saying that Dygz and I are rare'?

    Dygz has specific interest in at least two of those things and I have interest in three.

    I am 'in the group of people who don't like this change but were explicitly looking forward to all those other things'. Am I correct in my understanding?

    I see no reason for complexity with ships, because the Corruption system only works based on kills right now anyway, and if Naval Content is anything like ArcheAge according to my research, the ship goes down LAST. I don't understand what you are seeing. Corruption is for KILLS, not attacks. Where is the awkwardness?

    In regards to corruption and ship pvp, I think he means if there is someone on a ship killed by a player or a few on another ship with many players, it could entail possibly corrupting the entirety of the ships crew when they didn't want it to happen.

    I don't see how. I admit I have not finished my research into the minutiae of ArcheAge's mechanics.

    Is the person on the target ship killed by a cannon fired by someone? Cannon firer gets corruption, ship turns purple, if they want to be green they boot the cannon firer.

    Is the person on the target ship killed by a magic attack? Magic attacker gets corruption. Same thing.

    Is it 'worrying about being corrupted for attacking the ship because you happen to kill the green player'? Also easily solved in my mind. Green ship has all Green crew, captain can flag ship purple or not. Green ship can't fire back. Etc.

    Is this above the thing we are considering 'awkward'? I just don't see it as very different from Group Land Combat corruption rules.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • it's international waters, use at own risk. No reason for a corruption system out there.
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    I believe your argument here is close to 'saying that Dygz and I are rare'?

    Dygz has specific interest in at least two of those things and I have interest in three.

    I am 'in the group of people who don't like this change but were explicitly looking forward to all those other things'. Am I correct in my understanding?

    I see no reason for complexity with ships, because the Corruption system only works based on kills right now anyway, and if Naval Content is anything like ArcheAge according to my research, the ship goes down LAST. I don't understand what you are seeing. Corruption is for KILLS, not attacks. Where is the awkwardness?

    In regards to corruption and ship pvp, I think he means if there is someone on a ship killed by a player or a few on another ship with many players, it could entail possibly corrupting the entirety of the ships crew when they didn't want it to happen.

    I don't see how. I admit I have not finished my research into the minutiae of ArcheAge's mechanics.

    Is the person on the target ship killed by a cannon fired by someone? Cannon firer gets corruption, ship turns purple, if they want to be green they boot the cannon firer.

    Is the person on the target ship killed by a magic attack? Magic attacker gets corruption. Same thing.

    Is it 'worrying about being corrupted for attacking the ship because you happen to kill the green player'? Also easily solved in my mind. Green ship has all Green crew, captain can flag ship purple or not. Green ship can't fire back. Etc.

    Is this above the thing we are considering 'awkward'? I just don't see it as very different from Group Land Combat corruption rules.

    Honestly I don't know, that was just my guess. But as I said to @XiraelAcaron , I feel like the real reason is they made a judgement call on the ganeplay
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I know this change does not change how corruption works on land, but the univerality of the the corruption system is considered part of it by many PvE players.

    Edit: I meant PvE players, of course.

    You can add me to 'Definitely PvP' for whom the corruption system is very important.

    I don't care about blatantly unfair fights because the Corruption system handles them.

    If I am in ur Node, stealin' ur mats, and your 'patrol' kills me and one person gets Corrupted as a result, the outcome is good.

    If I am in ur Node for exploration or travel, and your 'patrol' kills me, Corruption still works.

    If I am going somewhere and a random pile of griefers kills me, Corruption still works.

    The more people I have with me, the higher chance of more Corruption. If I am being attacked on my way somewhere and the attackers just 'attack on sight', I would like to be able to tell them 'no we're just passing through' and they weigh whether or not the Corruption is worth 'making sure I'm not tricking them'.

    In any situation where no Corruption exists, there is no longer a reason to not just kill if they can. This now applies to the open ocean. (defenders, please do not bother responding to this by going back to the same 'well the Ocean is supposed to be dangerous, I get it, if you consider that a 'win' for your perspective, I yield).
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • XiraelAcaronXiraelAcaron Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »

    For technical problems technical solutions can be found. They should be discussed. If this was the reason for the change this solution sounds lazy to me.

    I'd assume that they implemented it, and once they tested perhaps made a judgement call saying that having to flag for this content was bad gameplay

    Then they should tell us that. And I already have a first idea of the top of my head of how you can make corruption work with ships. We can discuss it if you like, but it would turn this discussion in a totally different direction.
  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member, Alpha Two

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    For technical problems technical solutions can be found. They should be discussed. If this was the reason for the change this solution sounds lazy to me.
    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    Very many. And very many never considered Ashes because of these mechanics (I am not saying they should be removed). And now they are doubling down deesign-wise without a good reasoning apart from the almighty 'risk-vs-reward' where many cannot see what this has to do with corruption. So for many that stuck around and swallowed all these lemons, this will be the last drop. That is what I fear.
    You have to remember that the corruption system is kind of the holy grail of the PvE player. Touch it at your own peril.

    Their reason is a mix of game play concepts their designed are planning and working on revolving around PvP and PvE that might be akin to EvE as that is inspiration for the game. And the other is this is their game they are developing creating it in the way they want the gameplay they are designing to be made. People really be out here like this is a released game and now what they were doing before is suddenly changed. When they have no clue how the game is actually going to play for them when all systems are in place and working.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    I believe your argument here is close to 'saying that Dygz and I are rare'?

    Dygz has specific interest in at least two of those things and I have interest in three.

    I am 'in the group of people who don't like this change but were explicitly looking forward to all those other things'. Am I correct in my understanding?

    I see no reason for complexity with ships, because the Corruption system only works based on kills right now anyway, and if Naval Content is anything like ArcheAge according to my research, the ship goes down LAST. I don't understand what you are seeing. Corruption is for KILLS, not attacks. Where is the awkwardness?

    In regards to corruption and ship pvp, I think he means if there is someone on a ship killed by a player or a few on another ship with many players, it could entail possibly corrupting the entirety of the ships crew when they didn't want it to happen.

    I don't see how. I admit I have not finished my research into the minutiae of ArcheAge's mechanics.

    Is the person on the target ship killed by a cannon fired by someone? Cannon firer gets corruption, ship turns purple, if they want to be green they boot the cannon firer.

    Is the person on the target ship killed by a magic attack? Magic attacker gets corruption. Same thing.

    Is it 'worrying about being corrupted for attacking the ship because you happen to kill the green player'? Also easily solved in my mind. Green ship has all Green crew, captain can flag ship purple or not. Green ship can't fire back. Etc.

    Is this above the thing we are considering 'awkward'? I just don't see it as very different from Group Land Combat corruption rules.

    Honestly I don't know, that was just my guess. But as I said to @XiraelAcaron , I feel like the real reason is they made a judgement call on the ganeplay

    I understand, you were somewhat speaking for @mcstackerson in that, and in good faith relative to Ashes' development, and I agree that the voice of reason in that regard must be heard. I only ask that you accept that 'I just felt like it because I like ArcheAge' could be a reason too, from Steven's side, with no technical backing.

    I would much appreciate being enlightened as to a scenario where Corruption would be awkward at sea. Also, I wonder if ship battles will be allowed in Coastal waters?

    Will they just not develop any systems for that either? It seems to me that they would have to come up with a working Corruption system for that scenario anyway?
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Servers won't be different... which is why I won't be playing.
    :)

    Oh wow, you won't be playing really? thanks for the new input man
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »

    For technical problems technical solutions can be found. They should be discussed. If this was the reason for the change this solution sounds lazy to me.

    I'd assume that they implemented it, and once they tested perhaps made a judgement call saying that having to flag for this content was bad gameplay

    Then they should tell us that. And I already have a first idea of the top of my head of how you can make corruption work with ships. We can discuss it if you like, but it would turn this discussion in a totally different direction.

    Go for it, it's more info for devs
    GJjUGHx.gif
  • @Azherae why would you want corruption to play a role in international waters which have no laws or jurisdiction?

    Coastal waters before the open sea... maybe because that's part of the node as the seaside node would have to be part of other wise people could just camp them?
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    I believe your argument here is close to 'saying that Dygz and I are rare'?

    Dygz has specific interest in at least two of those things and I have interest in three.

    I am 'in the group of people who don't like this change but were explicitly looking forward to all those other things'. Am I correct in my understanding?

    I see no reason for complexity with ships, because the Corruption system only works based on kills right now anyway, and if Naval Content is anything like ArcheAge according to my research, the ship goes down LAST. I don't understand what you are seeing. Corruption is for KILLS, not attacks. Where is the awkwardness?

    In regards to corruption and ship pvp, I think he means if there is someone on a ship killed by a player or a few on another ship with many players, it could entail possibly corrupting the entirety of the ships crew when they didn't want it to happen.

    I don't see how. I admit I have not finished my research into the minutiae of ArcheAge's mechanics.

    Is the person on the target ship killed by a cannon fired by someone? Cannon firer gets corruption, ship turns purple, if they want to be green they boot the cannon firer.

    Is the person on the target ship killed by a magic attack? Magic attacker gets corruption. Same thing.

    Is it 'worrying about being corrupted for attacking the ship because you happen to kill the green player'? Also easily solved in my mind. Green ship has all Green crew, captain can flag ship purple or not. Green ship can't fire back. Etc.

    Is this above the thing we are considering 'awkward'? I just don't see it as very different from Group Land Combat corruption rules.

    Honestly I don't know, that was just my guess. But as I said to @XiraelAcaron , I feel like the real reason is they made a judgement call on the ganeplay

    I understand, you were somewhat speaking for @mcstackerson in that, and in good faith relative to Ashes' development, and I agree that the voice of reason in that regard must be heard. I only ask that you accept that 'I just felt like it because I like ArcheAge' could be a reason too, from Steven's side, with no technical backing.

    I would much appreciate being enlightened as to a scenario where Corruption would be awkward at sea. Also, I wonder if ship battles will be allowed in Coastal waters?

    Will they just not develop any systems for that either? It seems to me that they would have to come up with a working Corruption system for that scenario anyway?

    I agree with everything you just said hahaha. Could totally see Steven adding it just because he likes it. And also you are correct in regards to ZOI water, although if it had to do with technicalnissues, it could be as easy as having guards/patrols protecting those areas. Unsure though, but that definitely makes me lean more towards the whole "it's added because it was the desired gameplay" and less for technical issues

    Edit: if that's the case at least we can expect corruption to work properly
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  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    @Azherae why would you want corruption to play a role in international waters which have no laws or jurisdiction?

    Coastal waters before the open sea... maybe because that's part of the node as the seaside node would have to be part of other wise people could just camp them?

    To be clear, I'm not interested in this part at all.

    This whole post is about the reasoning for the change, and whether or not it would affect the gameplay or population in a way that would lead to specific shifts.

    If Steven's reason is just 'I don't feel like it, some parts of my game can just be pure PvP all the time because I like it that way', that's absolutely fine.

    I feel it would diminish my experience by changing the game's population demographics, and if I am right, I'll stop playing. Other people might 'make a harder assumption than me based on their experiences' and never start. This might be exactly what Intrepid wants. It's all good.
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • GoalidGoalid Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't think making the seas auto-flagged means that the corruption system is designed to be too harsh. But I don't understand the point of a zone where you're getting rewards without risk. I want there to be a ton of PvP in Ashes, but I really love the idea of incurring some actual risk and having to make a decision to PvP.
    h4iQQYb.png
  • mcstackersonmcstackerson Member, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    I believe your argument here is close to 'saying that Dygz and I are rare'?

    Dygz has specific interest in at least two of those things and I have interest in three.

    I am 'in the group of people who don't like this change but were explicitly looking forward to all those other things'. Am I correct in my understanding?

    I see no reason for complexity with ships, because the Corruption system only works based on kills right now anyway, and if Naval Content is anything like ArcheAge according to my research, the ship goes down LAST. I don't understand what you are seeing. Corruption is for KILLS, not attacks. Where is the awkwardness?

    I wasn't meaning to separate you out like that but i can see how you got that idea.

    My first paragraph boils down to a better experience for people who like this content possibly and indirect positive affect on players who don't like pvp because of where pvpers will now be.

    The second paragraph which i guess is where you got your first statement was asking how many of the players in "you and dygz" group are already turned off by other pvp features of the game. You are in a group of people who don't like the open pvp on the sea but are fine with being attacked while farming, having your caravans raided, being war dec'ed, and having your node raised by a siege.

    Archeage's ocean is also a prominent war zone so people can always attack each other. We don't know how prominent boarding will be. I kind of hope it's not that easy so ship v ship is different then zerg v zerg.

    To me, the main source of awkwardness I was thinking is from none combat activities on the ship like repairing and driving. Are players engaging in those activities safe unless people want to get corrupted? I already see some awkwardness in large scale fights where people need to attack each other to become combatant. Normally you want to engage hard on a group but with corruption, you are going to want to be careful you don't kill someone before they have had a chance to fight back.
  • XiraelAcaronXiraelAcaron Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »

    For technical problems technical solutions can be found. They should be discussed. If this was the reason for the change this solution sounds lazy to me.

    I'd assume that they implemented it, and once they tested perhaps made a judgement call saying that having to flag for this content was bad gameplay

    Then they should tell us that. And I already have a first idea of the top of my head of how you can make corruption work with ships. We can discuss it if you like, but it would turn this discussion in a totally different direction.

    Go for it, it's more info for devs

    OK, its simple. But please remember its a first shot. I did not think about every last aspect. The main ocean content is done by ships, yes? Then why not have ship owners have a ship corruption status that applies to every ship that is summoned by them and is independent from the players corruption state (or from the other occupants). So you summon a ship and the ship gets corruption (or however you want to call it. Lorewise it is of course total crap) and reduces corruption if it does normal naval gameplay or is sunk. Basically the same as on land, only for ships. You still have auto-flagging zones around caravans/merchant ships/world bosses etc. As a drawback fot going back, red ships cannot go to harbors to be repaired or improved until purple.
    Of course, if the reason was to increase the risk on the ocean that will not help. You have to think about something other there.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    For technical problems technical solutions can be found. They should be discussed. If this was the reason for the change this solution sounds lazy to me.

    I think what essentially happened is Steven decided, ok we're making this naval combat system (pretty rare in games). We're making a good one (even rarer). I want an area where this system can really stretch it's legs, where it can really rev it's engines. Where it can be itself in all of it's glory. "This type of change creates a very compelling type of gameplay." - Steven.

    And the area they chose fits perfectly with the game's core philosophies and systems, the open sea.

    All of the talk of awkwardness in corruption system naval combat, if you use your imagination, as you begin to game out scenarios in your mind, you should be able to see it too. But it's just speculation on our part if that's one of the reasons why he made the change. As we all know, corruption system naval combat will still exist. So by that fact alone, it has to be functional, it has to work as good as possible, even if kind of awkward.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    So I ask you, if you assume that this will cause a loss of interest in some part of the population and that number will not be 'regained' by pulling in more than it loses, is it still worth it?

    I don't think anyone is in the position to make this call.

    There was going to be a lot of awkwardness with ships and the corruption system so this probably will make it a better experience for players who are interested in that kind of content. It also could make the game better for people who don't want to pvp since more pvp minded players will move towards the ocean, which people could avoid.

    There is also the question of what other features already existed in the game to push away the same group of people who don't like this change. How many of those people are going to be turned off by getting their caravans raided, being attacked at farming spots, or having their node raised?

    I believe your argument here is close to 'saying that Dygz and I are rare'?

    Dygz has specific interest in at least two of those things and I have interest in three.

    I am 'in the group of people who don't like this change but were explicitly looking forward to all those other things'. Am I correct in my understanding?

    I see no reason for complexity with ships, because the Corruption system only works based on kills right now anyway, and if Naval Content is anything like ArcheAge according to my research, the ship goes down LAST. I don't understand what you are seeing. Corruption is for KILLS, not attacks. Where is the awkwardness?

    I wasn't meaning to separate you out like that but i can see how you got that idea.

    My first paragraph boils down to a better experience for people who like this content possibly and indirect positive affect on players who don't like pvp because of where pvpers will now be.

    The second paragraph which i guess is where you got your first statement was asking how many of the players in "you and dygz" group are already turned off by other pvp features of the game. You are in a group of people who don't like the open pvp on the sea but are fine with being attacked while farming, having your caravans raided, being war dec'ed, and having your node raised by a siege.

    Archeage's ocean is also a prominent war zone so people can always attack each other. We don't know how prominent boarding will be. I kind of hope it's not that easy so ship v ship is different then zerg v zerg.

    To me, the main source of awkwardness I was thinking is from none combat activities on the ship like repairing and driving. Are players engaging in those activities safe unless people want to get corrupted? I already see some awkwardness in large scale fights where people need to attack each other to become combatant. Normally you want to engage hard on a group but with corruption, you are going to want to be careful you don't kill someone before they have had a chance to fight back.

    I believe I was singling myself out in an abstract way, which I shouldn't have done due to our communication issues.

    So in your case I'll just ask the other question.

    "If Corruption is complex in Open Seas, is it also too complex in coastal ship battles?"
    ♪ One Gummy Fish, two Gummy Fish, Red Gummy Fish, Blue Gummy Fish
  • Azherae wrote: »
    @Azherae why would you want corruption to play a role in international waters which have no laws or jurisdiction?

    Coastal waters before the open sea... maybe because that's part of the node as the seaside node would have to be part of other wise people could just camp them?

    To be clear, I'm not interested in this part at all.

    This whole post is about the reasoning for the change, and whether or not it would affect the gameplay or population in a way that would lead to specific shifts.

    If Steven's reason is just 'I don't feel like it, some parts of my game can just be pure PvP all the time because I like it that way', that's absolutely fine.

    I feel it would diminish my experience by changing the game's population demographics, and if I am right, I'll stop playing. Other people might 'make a harder assumption than me based on their experiences' and never start. This might be exactly what Intrepid wants. It's all good.

    oh, I see what you mean. I'm fine with the "open seas" being open PvP, no need for a corruption/flagging system out there in my opinion. Seems pointless plus this allows people to fill that pirate itch :smile:

    Not going to deter me from wanting to play it. I understand what kind of game it is :smile: And, if there is eventually special land zones that are open conflict/pvp, im cool that too. Hopefully there is some cool lore or reason for why it exists and more importantly, what reason would one want the risk vs reward for traversing such zones
  • DolyemDolyem Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited August 2022
    Dolyem wrote: »
    Dolyem wrote: »

    For technical problems technical solutions can be found. They should be discussed. If this was the reason for the change this solution sounds lazy to me.

    I'd assume that they implemented it, and once they tested perhaps made a judgement call saying that having to flag for this content was bad gameplay

    Then they should tell us that. And I already have a first idea of the top of my head of how you can make corruption work with ships. We can discuss it if you like, but it would turn this discussion in a totally different direction.

    Go for it, it's more info for devs

    OK, its simple. But please remember its a first shot. I did not think about every last aspect. The main ocean content is done by ships, yes? Then why not have ship owners have a ship corruption status that applies to every ship that is summoned by them and is independent from the players corruption state (or from the other occupants). So you summon a ship and the ship gets corruption (or however you want to call it. Lorewise it is of course total crap) and reduces corruption if it does normal naval gameplay or is sunk. Basically the same as on land, only for ships. You still have auto-flagging zones around caravans/merchant ships/world bosses etc. As a drawback fot going back, red ships cannot go to harbors to be repaired or improved until purple.
    Of course, if the reason was to increase the risk on the ocean that will not help. You have to think about something other there.

    Interesting take, how would that negatively affect the players on the ship then? And if it got too corrupted, wouldn't it be as simple as making another?
    GJjUGHx.gif
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