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Corruption system in relation to auto-flagging in open sea

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  • Mag7spyMag7spy Member
    edited August 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    hwPcGpN.png

    I have said this was most likely going to be the case just saying :/. You can safely travel across the sea without mats.
  • Warth wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    How does adding auto-flag Combatant, PvP-Only zones not make the game less PvX??

    Lets look at the definition of PvX by Steven himself:
    We like to really refer to ourselves as a PvX game, because in those systems of PvP, PvE, crafting they're all intertwined: They're interdependent on each other... Our system of development really requires some interdependence there between those things.

    It doesnt mean that there is seperate PvP and PvE Content. It means that you will naturally encounter both.

    You have open sea PvE content, in which you will naturally encounter PvP, which is exactly, what Stevens has defined as PvX from the beginning.

    And what do you mean with PvP only zone? Its not, there is tons of PvE Content on the open sea. Just because you are freely attackable doesnt make it a PvP-only zone.

    Agree with this, pve players are thinking the game is pvp suddenly because it has more pvp. All it needs to have is both Pve and pvp working together and the content between both being decent. Being able to flag or freely pk someone doesn't mean its a pvp game when it has clear pve elements as well.

    How things play out needs to be tested and seen before you can fully judge one way or another. People are simply assuming the worst when it it only relates to sea content and most likely will not include underground but we will see.
  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    For me the balance IS will need to figure our is how to prevent mega alliances from dominating a server, it feels like this change provides more opportunity than before for a mega guild to dominate a server, however if they can appropriately balance the risk for a dominate alliance so that they can't gatekeep standard players from enjoying the content, then I think this is fine.

    Ironically, I think the server most likely to have a dominating mega alliance is the community designated "unofficial" pve server. Woe to the random player looking for an authentic Ashes experience who unknowingly ends up on that communist hellhole of a server.

    That said, I do agree in general mega alliances could be a problem for other servers. It's up to Intrepid to design systems to make it not possible. Scarcity and friction is a must, and I think Steven knows that based on things he's said.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2022
    Who said it's the worst?
    It's merely over the threshold for my playstyle.
    Ashes now has zones that are auto-flagged Combatant, free-for-all PvP zones.
    That's not the kind of MMORPG I want to play.
  • BaSkA_9x2BaSkA_9x2 Member
    edited August 2022
    Voxtrium wrote: »
    For me the balance IS will need to figure out is how to prevent mega alliances from dominating a server, it feels like this change provides more opportunity than before for a mega guild to dominate a server

    That is a prime example of looking for solutions for problems that shouldn't exist in the first place. Even before the removal of corruption from the open sea, there was probably going to be enough motivation for alliances to try to control parts of the ocean. And even before the removal of corruption from the open sea, I wish Intrepid would do nothing about, because that's what a sandbox game is about: the developer only tries to intervene and balance something if they absolutely must.

    Now something that was already likely to happen will surely happen in many servers, and now they'll need to find solutions to a problem that shouldn't have been introduced by them. Lemme break your legs and look for crutches for you.
    🎶Galo é Galo o resto é bosta🎶
  • VoxtriumVoxtrium Member
    edited August 2022
    @BaSkA13 I think it is more akin to designing a car with safety features. As in this case IS has a design goal and they must create circumstances to allow that design goal to be fun. ie a car manufacture wants a fast car but they must choose between a safer feature for the car or one that allows it to be faster. The choice is in the design and neither is necessary. Some people care less about safety and more about speed and others safety over speed, most reside in the middle, desiring some level of safety while keeping speed.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    You didnt have your fill of attention yet? How much do you need these forums?
    Still less than you, apparently.

  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Is my understanding correct that near shore, at a distance yet to be defined, a player will still be able to travel, fish etc in non-pvp zone.

    Only if one travels further out, does one transition to a pvp zone.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2022
    Your understanding is correct. (I mean... normal flagging zone. But, yes.)
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    Ah.. cool.. I hope then on days where I would like a relaxing pve time, I can still do some fishing in relative safety. (compared to out in the open water)
  • XuriXuri Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    I think its a great addition even for a pacifist style of player I've grown into.

    Will I partake in forced PvP? No, prolly not. But if I have goods that need to be transported across the sea you bet your tail I'll be hiring Mercs to help transport it for me.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    You didnt have your fill of attention yet? How much do you need these forums?
    Still less than you, apparently.

    you dont see me posting in games that I dont want to play. Anyways.
  • Warth wrote: »
    @CROW3 this change doesnt make it any else PVX. Why do you think it does?

    It’s simply a PvP zone. There’s less system risk (no corruption) and less PvE reward. There’e more pvp risk from open players.

    I just see this as a zone mimicking any other game’s open world pvp zone. Again - I love pvp - so I’m ultimately fine, but I think it erodes the commitment to PvX.

    AoC+Dwarf+750v3.png
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    True.
    you dont see me posting in games that I dont want to play. Anyways.
    I'm posting in the forums of a game with features I'm going to test. Anyways.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Lets look at the definition of PvX by Steven himself:
    "We like to really refer to ourselves as a PvX game, because in those systems of PvP, PvE, crafting they're all intertwined: They're interdependent on each other... Our system of development really requires some interdependence there between those things.
    I'd say that's not true of auto-flag Combatant, PvP zones.
    It's not interdependant - it's just a free-for-all PvP zone.
    Warth wrote: »
    You have open sea PvE content, in which you will naturally encounter PvP, which is exactly, what Stevens has defined as PvX from the beginning.
    That would be true of any game with open world, free-for-all PvP combat that includes PvE.
    Like Shadowbane and ArcheAge and EvE Online.
    So, that is not any kind of unique concept that sets it apart from other PvP-centric MMORPGs.
    Open Seas with default flag as Non-Combatant and Corruption...we would still naturally encounter PvP - same as on land.
    Warth wrote: »
    And what do you mean with PvP only zone? Its not, there is tons of PvE Content on the open sea. Just because you are freely attackable doesnt make it a PvP-only zone.
    LOL. I fixed that right before you posted.

    yes its interdependant, if there wasnt any PvE Content to do on the open ocean, then there wouldnt be anyone to kill for the pirates because (close to nobody) would even venture out to the sea if it was content-barren.

    Im not sure why the possibility of getting killed suddenly invalidates all the PvE Content that exist within the game for you. Just feels like a strange notion to me. If the possibility of getting killed incites the loss of all interest to you, then Im not sure what to tell you except, the fact, that this certainly will be part of the game.
  • CROW3 wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    @CROW3 this change doesnt make it any else PVX. Why do you think it does?

    It’s simply a PvP zone. There’s less system risk (no corruption) and less PvE reward. There’e more pvp risk from open players.

    I just see this as a zone mimicking any other game’s open world pvp zone. Again - I love pvp - so I’m ultimately fine, but I think it erodes the commitment to PvX.
    @CROW3 there isnt any less PvE Reward though. The Reward you get from completing various PvE objectives in the open sea is exactly the same as before. Its just more risky as you have said.
    You will didnt elaborate how it erodes the commitment to PvX.

    PvE and PvP is intertwined. You cant just do PvE without the threat of being interrupted by PvP.
    You wont do much PvP if there wasnt any (PVE) reason for people to travel into the open ocean in the first place.
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Dygz wrote: »
    True.
    you dont see me posting in games that I dont want to play. Anyways.
    I'm posting in the forums of a game with features I'm going to test. Anyways.

    One guy with opposite views to the design philosophy wont make a difference.
  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    True.
    you dont see me posting in games that I dont want to play. Anyways.
    I'm posting in the forums of a game with features I'm going to test. Anyways.

    Dygz, I feel for you and other players that are more pve bias than the masses.

    Coming from L2 where it was full loot drop on death in pve or pvp in the early after beta, I was very much risk adverse. I could not run an afk shop to buy and sell and make money. So making money was always a choice between do I pve today or do I stay in town to make money..

    But in all honesty, whilst I died a few times and lost gear and mats here and there, as the game matured past beta and the player culture established, dying became rarer and rarer and L2 really was a hardcore pve game with very, very occasional encounters.

    But as the game matured, so did the difficulty of doing pve solo or in PUGs, so players started joining guilds.
    Guilds then determined your status in the world. The L2 pve guilds were largely left alone but had to sometimes play with an understanding that by not participating in pvp meant that on some occasions they may need to concede what they can do at times if a pvp guild was present. but most time not.. the pvp clans really only wanted the challenge of pvp clans.. AoC will have the issue of drops from players but with no fast travel that benefit will soon be stifled.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    edited August 2022
    Warth wrote: »
    yes its interdependant, if there wasnt any PvE Content to do on the open ocean, then there wouldnt be anyone to kill for the pirates because (close to nobody) would even venture out to the sea if it was content-barren.
    Free-for-all PvP combat is not interdependant on PvE.


    Warth wrote: »
    Im not sure why the possibility of getting killed suddenly invalidates all the PvE Content that exist within the game for you. Just feels like a strange notion to me. If the possibility of getting killed incites the loss of all interest to you, then Im not sure what to tell you except, the fact, that this certainly will be part of the game.
    Clearly, you don't see...because there is already the possibility of getting killed with the normal Corruption-flagging PvP.
    Really has nothing to do with the possibility of getting killed and everything to do with Corruption no longer acting to minimize instances of unwanted PvP combat. No one said that it "invalidates all the PvE content".
    What it does is disenfranchises players who do not enjoy free-for-all PvP combat.
    In addition to all the other forms of objective-based, opt-in PvP combat available in the game - Ashes now has a designated auto-flag, free-for-all PvP zone - with unique NPCs and unique treasure-finding opportunities.
    That's the same thing as a PvP-centric game. Especially in a game with no safe zones.
    Same difference as EvE Online and ArcheAge.

    It's OK for it to certainly be a part of the game.
    It's also OK for me to not play it.
  • XiraelAcaronXiraelAcaron Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Xuri wrote: »
    I think its a great addition even for a pacifist style of player I've grown into.

    Will I partake in forced PvP? No, prolly not. But if I have goods that need to be transported across the sea you bet your tail I'll be hiring Mercs to help transport it for me.
    Warth wrote: »
    ...
    PvE and PvP is intertwined. You cant just do PvE without the threat of being interrupted by PvP.
    You wont do much PvP if there wasnt any (PVE) reason for people to travel into the open ocean in the first place.

    That you have to contend with PvP when you do PvE is not and was never the issue (at least for me). That was always part of the design of AoC. Moving goods across the open sea for example was always going to be a risk, since caravans and I assume merchant ships as well were always open for PvP (like caravans on land).
    The problem is the other stuff that is now possible as well (i.e. griefing in its variaous form) because the griefers have no longer anything thats holding them back.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
    One guy with opposite views to the design philosophy wont make a difference.
    We agree. So...what's your beef?
  • George_BlackGeorge_Black Member, Intrepid Pack
    Stop attacking the design and claiming that AoC is misleading regarding PvX, based on your biast understanding of pvx and what pve should be in an mmo.
  • Xuri wrote: »
    I think its a great addition even for a pacifist style of player I've grown into.

    Will I partake in forced PvP? No, prolly not. But if I have goods that need to be transported across the sea you bet your tail I'll be hiring Mercs to help transport it for me.
    Warth wrote: »
    ...
    PvE and PvP is intertwined. You cant just do PvE without the threat of being interrupted by PvP.
    You wont do much PvP if there wasnt any (PVE) reason for people to travel into the open ocean in the first place.

    That you have to contend with PvP when you do PvE is not and was never the issue (at least for me). That was always part of the design of AoC. Moving goods across the open sea for example was always going to be a risk, since caravans and I assume merchant ships as well were always open for PvP (like caravans on land).
    The problem is the other stuff that is now possible as well (i.e. griefing in its variaous form) because the griefers have no longer anything thats holding them back.

    So people who want to grief move into a completely optional area of the map rather than the zones where the general population spends a majority of their tine ? Sounds indeed like a huge loss for the part of the community, that is very PvP averse. /s
  • JustVineJustVine Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Warth wrote: »
    Xuri wrote: »
    I think its a great addition even for a pacifist style of player I've grown into.

    Will I partake in forced PvP? No, prolly not. But if I have goods that need to be transported across the sea you bet your tail I'll be hiring Mercs to help transport it for me.
    Warth wrote: »
    ...
    PvE and PvP is intertwined. You cant just do PvE without the threat of being interrupted by PvP.
    You wont do much PvP if there wasnt any (PVE) reason for people to travel into the open ocean in the first place.

    That you have to contend with PvP when you do PvE is not and was never the issue (at least for me). That was always part of the design of AoC. Moving goods across the open sea for example was always going to be a risk, since caravans and I assume merchant ships as well were always open for PvP (like caravans on land).
    The problem is the other stuff that is now possible as well (i.e. griefing in its variaous form) because the griefers have no longer anything thats holding them back.

    So people who want to grief move into a completely optional area of the map rather than the zones where the general population spends a majority of their tine ? Sounds indeed like a huge loss for the part of the community, that is very PvP averse. /s

    We don't know if it's 'completely optional' yet. It could be a requirement for end game crafting and gear. We'll just have to wait for them to clarify that part of the design change. Most games that do this type of pvp zone tend to also gate top mats for crafting and gear in such zones. So without further clarification I expect a lot of people to assume that it will for now.
    🔦🔱⚔️Selling pro pain and pro pain accessories. ⚔️🔱🔦
  • International waters being PvP makes sense, so I don't actually mind it.
    But there is going to be a point where too many PvP zones, auto flag areas, etc. will kind of tilt the PvX balance to a more PVP feeling game... And I hope they don't.

    in my opinion at least
  • RamirezRamirez Member
    edited August 2022
    Dygz wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    yes its interdependant, if there wasnt any PvE Content to do on the open ocean, then there wouldnt be anyone to kill for the pirates because (close to nobody) would even venture out to the sea if it was content-barren.
    Free-for-all PvP combat is not interdependant on PvE.


    Warth wrote: »
    Im not sure why the possibility of getting killed suddenly invalidates all the PvE Content that exist within the game for you. Just feels like a strange notion to me. If the possibility of getting killed incites the loss of all interest to you, then Im not sure what to tell you except, the fact, that this certainly will be part of the game.
    Clearly, you don't see...because there is already the possibility of getting killed with the normal Corruption-flagging PvP.
    Really has nothing to do with the possibility of getting killed and everything to do with Corruption no longer acting to minimize instances of unwanted PvP combat. No one said that it "invalidates all the PvE content".
    What it does is disenfranchises players who do not enjoy free-for-all PvP combat.
    In addition to all the other forms of objective-based, opt-in PvP combat available in the game - Ashes now has a designated auto-flag, free-for-all PvP zone - with unique NPCs and unique treasure-finding opportunities.
    That's the same thing as a PvP-centric game. Especially in a game with no safe zones.
    Same difference as EvE Online and ArcheAge.

    It's OK for it to certainly be a part of the game.
    It's also OK for me to not play it.

    Why are you acting like the Open sea is an fucking arena, where you can't Run? Is AN OPEN GIANT SEA, Build an fast ship and go and explore, you can see other players in miles just avoid, and believe me, no one Will follow you on Open sea if you start avoiding from a far distance, even more if they see you are not an caravan, they Will just lose time and never reach you.

    You never player sea of thieves or archeage? This is even worst for gankers because now they can't Stay in the sea afk waiting for caravan other ganker Will kill then...

  • OkeydokeOkeydoke Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    JustVine wrote: »
    We don't know if it's 'completely optional' yet

    I can almost guarantee there's going to be something in the open ocean that is valuable or required for some part of the game/progression. It's still optional whether you go there or not. The game is an open marketplace, and virtually an economic simulator. Not everyone is supposed to be able to complete every piece of content. You trade for or buy the things you want/need.

  • JustVine wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Xuri wrote: »
    I think its a great addition even for a pacifist style of player I've grown into.

    Will I partake in forced PvP? No, prolly not. But if I have goods that need to be transported across the sea you bet your tail I'll be hiring Mercs to help transport it for me.
    Warth wrote: »
    ...
    PvE and PvP is intertwined. You cant just do PvE without the threat of being interrupted by PvP.
    You wont do much PvP if there wasnt any (PVE) reason for people to travel into the open ocean in the first place.

    That you have to contend with PvP when you do PvE is not and was never the issue (at least for me). That was always part of the design of AoC. Moving goods across the open sea for example was always going to be a risk, since caravans and I assume merchant ships as well were always open for PvP (like caravans on land).
    The problem is the other stuff that is now possible as well (i.e. griefing in its variaous form) because the griefers have no longer anything thats holding them back.

    So people who want to grief move into a completely optional area of the map rather than the zones where the general population spends a majority of their tine ? Sounds indeed like a huge loss for the part of the community, that is very PvP averse. /s

    We don't know if it's 'completely optional' yet. It could be a requirement for end game crafting and gear. We'll just have to wait for them to clarify that part of the design change. Most games that do this type of pvp zone tend to also gate top mats for crafting and gear in such zones. So without further clarification I expect a lot of people to assume that it will for now.

    A: If Endgame mats are exclusively obtained there, then its indeed PvX and the entire argument they brought (it not being PvX crumbles).

    B: Its still completely optional even with rare endgame materials dropping there as you can still just make money otherwise and buy what you need.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    Warth wrote: »
    JustVine wrote: »
    Warth wrote: »
    Xuri wrote: »
    I think its a great addition even for a pacifist style of player I've grown into.

    Will I partake in forced PvP? No, prolly not. But if I have goods that need to be transported across the sea you bet your tail I'll be hiring Mercs to help transport it for me.
    Warth wrote: »
    ...
    PvE and PvP is intertwined. You cant just do PvE without the threat of being interrupted by PvP.
    You wont do much PvP if there wasnt any (PVE) reason for people to travel into the open ocean in the first place.

    That you have to contend with PvP when you do PvE is not and was never the issue (at least for me). That was always part of the design of AoC. Moving goods across the open sea for example was always going to be a risk, since caravans and I assume merchant ships as well were always open for PvP (like caravans on land).
    The problem is the other stuff that is now possible as well (i.e. griefing in its variaous form) because the griefers have no longer anything thats holding them back.

    So people who want to grief move into a completely optional area of the map rather than the zones where the general population spends a majority of their tine ? Sounds indeed like a huge loss for the part of the community, that is very PvP averse. /s

    We don't know if it's 'completely optional' yet. It could be a requirement for end game crafting and gear. We'll just have to wait for them to clarify that part of the design change. Most games that do this type of pvp zone tend to also gate top mats for crafting and gear in such zones. So without further clarification I expect a lot of people to assume that it will for now.

    A: If Endgame mats are exclusively obtained there, then its indeed PvX and the entire argument they brought (it not being PvX crumbles).

    B: Its still completely optional even with rare endgame materials dropping there as you can still just make money otherwise and buy what you need.

    Ah yes, from all those people who will grant you access to those high level materials before they and their group have farmed it to the point where they have nearly absolute control because they need the money for something other than the best materials in the game which they already have.

    Economics 101.
    Sorry, my native language is Erlang.
    
  • SigtyrSigtyr Member, Alpha One, Adventurer
    JustVine wrote: »
    We don't know if it's 'completely optional' yet. It could be a requirement for end game crafting and gear.

    To be fair, even in the unlikely event the ocean exclusively held items required to craft BiS gear or anything “required” to “complete” the game, I imagine based on things Steven said in the past that it would not be Bind on Pickup and you could just buy it.
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