Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
One of the largest problems with this, I think outright huge problems, is that higher PvE skill automatically puts many players in a situation where they are automatically disadvantaged in PvP against a player with less of it.
Let's use Alpha-1 as a simple example. Crabs on a beach, level 13-15.
High skill PvE player goes there at level 8 and starts racking up the exp.
Lower skill PvE player or one who doesn't have as good a build doesn't go there until level 11 or 12.
These two players could have literally the same build, gear, and PvP skill, and the LESS skilled PvE player would win their fight.
I'm not saying that it shouldn't be like this, I'm simply adding it to the conceptual pile of reasons why PvE-focused players who build up those skills don't necessarily enjoy games like Ashes. Note it again. The player with the higher SKILL at one thing can have EQUAL skill to the other in PvP but because of their wish to push their PvE skill, they are disadvantaged in a PvP conflict anyway.
And when PvE players realize that they can fight back against players the same way they would fight back against an agro mob who attacked them first. Obviously this doesn't include the gatherer part of the pve player spectrum, but those are protected by the corruption system (to a point) and would probably usually be on the lower adventure lvl side of progression so it's not like any pvper would be ready to just kill them.
We will have to see how builds play out and how different a pvp vs a pve build is but if you are making one that doesn't have any thought for pvp, then i see that as a risk you are taking.
As with your skill comment. Yes, as with all games, you will need to learn the variety of skills to play, at least play efficiently. Your PvE skill is important because it allows you to gather resources and progress. Your pvp skill allows you to fight over those resources. Knowing both is important in the game.
I agree with your hope, but don't see the connection here other than maybe 'Make PvP and PvE so equivalent in what the experience is like that we don't consider the two skillsets to even be different'?
I'm sure they're working on it, it's not THAT hard, but then you are in territory that is pretty rough for the majority of players for a different reason.
Remember I told you a while ago that the ONE Dark Rift enemy in BDO that fights relatively close to how a player would, is the one they mark as 'Very Hard' in their rating system. So you'd be saying 'You need to have a level of gaming skill equal to a PvP player to take on harder content in this game'.
As a solution to literally every 'problem' this game theoretically has (except not really) I'll take it.
Please see personal note added at top of this page and add any related opinion you have, if not already doing so.
I know that statement reeks of elitism, but that kind of thing applies to literally every mmo out there. Your skill is not great enough to participate in this raid? You don't get the loot from it, and usually that's the best loot. Apply that same logic to open world mobs and equate those mobs to pvp, and you'll have yourself true pvx players. Well, out of all the people who do understand how their character plays and manage to farm such mobs. At which point, in theory, to them the pvp shouldn't be any different than pve, which to me seems like the perfect pvx setup that Ashes should be striving for.
Keep the game difficult and give the players the means to overcome said difficulty. Not everyone will, but that's where you say "ashes is not for everyone", except now it'd still appeal to all the hardcore pvers out there.
Now I realize that it's not as easy as I explained it there, with Dygz being the biggest example of why. There'll always be people who dislike pvp out of principle and that's ok, there'll still be a ton of other features in the game that they can interact with.
A lot of games tried to make PvX before so Ashes of Creation is not special in anyway, it's special because Intrepid trying to make a PvX type of game that already not a majority taste for a long time and so call MMORPG genre is dying and games we can see now are full of shit in general in this era.
So PvX is a game type not really easy to have fun for hardcore PvP/PvE players which means players only want to do PvP or PvE and don't want the other part, to those kind of players you need to really understand that before you give your opinions.
Like open sea is a higher risk and higher return zone, it's just what we know for sure is that they choose to make open sea a auto flagging pvp zone to represent the higher risk for now, maybe the monsters are also much danger than monsters on land which means it's maybe won't work like a heavy PvP zone.
If the thing is that because there is a content leans more to PvP so the game needs a content leans more to PvE as a counter, Ashes of Creation will not far to become just a game have PvP and PvE part and call itself PvX like other shit games.
Too much hardcore PvP/PvE players here in official forum and want to make Ashes of Creation their game instead of make it fun, it's just too much "I don't play like that way so I don't want that content" BS like PvPer don't do PvE contents or PvEer don't want PvP contents cross to PvE contents or even they think PvPers are toxic etc, if these BS is truth that most players are just like what they said then Ashes of Creation is already dead.
But, terms are helpful when I'm talking with Steven to determine if Ashes is too PvP-centric for me and he's telling me it's not a PvP game, rather it's a PvX game.
Well, should have been helpful... he just used PvX to try to side-step my concern.
At this point, PvX is a useless term to me.
I don't care about how "intertwined" PvP and PvE are.
I want to know how close the Ashes server PvP ruleset feels to playing on a PvP server.
Is it a balanced PvP-Optional server or is it closer to a PvP server?
The auto-flagging as Combatant makes it clear to me that it's closer to a PvP server. Regardless of terms.
This entirely misrepresent's Dygz's position, and I have to call you on it precisely because it is actually extremely relevant in my opinion.
The main thing required for PvP and PvE players to interact 'fairly' in many situations is more limits on the PvP players so that they do not have too much freedom to overstep the standard 'rules of environment'. PvE being 'Player vs Environment', which includes Mobs but not 'other players'. The reason it does not include 'other players' is primarily so that those players get to have their own additional freedom, design wise.
Building a PvX game is not hard if the 'PvP' players are willing to accept certain limits to make them more 'Environmental'. I cannot say for certain, but Dygz has never indicated that this would not be acceptable and even possibly an incentive to interact with them at times.
That's a whole design document, though. The point is that your suggestion is the opposite. Make the Environment more like Players. This is generally used BY players in different ways. In fact, PvE games often have stuff like this because Players then just use the Environment against each other and never need to have direct conflict between two characters. And in those games, they can and do often use it for griefing too.
And, I would not play a game where AI fights the same way Humans fight.
Well, if it is relevant or gives you any 'comfort' at all, my group and I are definitely 'full PvX players'.
The main reason I don't mention it is because the response I usually get from 'hardcore' players is to 'assign us to the other camp' if I bring up anything I think doesn't support PvX properly.
I hope there are a lot of players like me, but I'm starting to worry that Ashes isn't actually designed for that player type. This worry doesn't have much basis, though, moreso 'born of the lack of information from Intrepid'. It could be that most of the 'hardcores' are going to be the ones very disappointed.
I think I hope that's not true, but I'm not sure how good/popular Ashes will be if it isn't.
Ya I'm unsure why people think ai will ever match humans in playstyle. Not atleast in this current age. Even in fighting games its easy to manipulate a bot and understand what they will do.
End of the day I want a game, not for them to be working on some new crazy tech of AI for the future that doesn't even exist yet.
Interesting. The definition ive seen before plenty on this forum is:
- PvE Player: Player who wants to primarily do PvE and avoids PvP for the most part / if humanly possible / unless they have the feeling to participate at this exact moment.
- PvP Player: Someone who doesnt mind or even likes participating in PvP opportunities.
So thats what i answered to.However, lets adress the definition you have posted before:
Going for either a pvp optimized build, a pve optimized (bossing, mobbing) build or anything inbetween is the players choice. As such, this decision should have consequences:
When a Player decides to go for a PvE-centric build at the expense of PvP-Tools, then they decide to increase their risk of being weaker in a PvP scenario in order to be better at farming when left alone. (Higher Risk - better Rewards)
When a player decides to go for a PvP-centric build that makes them less efficient at farming PvE, then he goes for a lower Risk - lower reward approach.
I do not see how this is a bad thing. Its the players choice. It gives them the agency to decide what they want to go for.
To rephrase what i wrote on top. What you practice and what you build for is your decision, not the decision of anybody else. If you are unhappy with the outcome, adapt, improve, overcome.
Im a PvE player at heart. If left to do so, I will spend 90+% of my time doing PvE (Mostly Gathering) activities.
That doesnt mean that im not planning to defend my farming spot when i have to or prepare for the ultimate scenario of being attacked (in whichever form) by another player. In a game like Ashes, being able to defend your farm spot is as important as the ability to optimally use the farm spot when its secure.
I think Intrepid has been very clear about that in the past. People might disagree with the direction as it isnt to their preference, but thats the game they want to build and if this turns away people, that do not want to get involved into PvP whatsoever, then thats the choice they are making and Im happy for it.
This is no longer true, as AI can just be trained to do it now using some fairly simple systems. Depending on the complexity of the game, it hasn't been true for a while.
On average, humans do not play as skillfully as AI, so unless you are referring to the fact that it is difficult to engage AI in conversation and negotiate peaceful resolutions with said AI (I kind of assume you are), it's probably best not to claim this, as it's misleading.
We agree, I think, but has nothing to do with my concerns.
I think, here, the issue is that I am a casual challenge/hardcore time player.
I'm a pacifist, non-competitive, carebear as well so, there's a bunch of stuff I don't like about fighting player characters in RPGs.
I'm not going to play a hardcore PvP game because Humans are too ruthless and exploitative. I can manage PvE to my liking.
I am sometimes in the mood for PvP, but rarely. So, I need to be able to choose when I flag for PvP... at the very least.
If there are zones on the map that auto-flag me as a Combatant, that game is not for me.
But...again...I like objective-based, opt-in, manual flagging PvP...sometimes.
And... since I am first and foremost an explorer, any game I play has to allow me to explore the entire map without being auto-flagged for PvP.
Ashes doesn't do that. So, clearly Ashes is not the game for me.
What defines the success of a player in an MMO (for simplicity sake in a solo scenario):
More skilled players can lose in MMOs, thats very much part of it and there is nothing bad about it as skill isnt the only attribute deciding your success.
All you describe above is that the level 8 player couldnt bridge his gap in effort (not being level 12) with the gap in skill.
Which i dont think is something bad at all, albeit it does require careful balancing. Im looking forward to Intrepid showing how they will balance it, but i do not think that is pertinent to the PvE vs PvP Player Scenario we were addressing before.
I'm sure there's been at least a few mmos that have done this already, I'm just saying to have such mobs in Ashes too and make them difficult. A PvE challenge, if you will.
And to address @Dygz directly, yes, I know that you don't partake in hardcore pve either. Which is why I said that there'd still be a ton of other content in the game. And just like you wouldn't participate in smth like a WoW mythic or a FF14 ultimate - you'd just avoid such mobs in Ashes (that is if you do even decide to play it).
Maybe it's just my L2 bias, but I don't really understand why people differentiate players from mobs
Then I don't really understand your point of engagement.
We probably can all agree and accept that PvE-focus as a choice being subject to the consequences of that choice is fine within Ashes.
The question then becomes 'what is the consequence of the choice of PvP-focus as a choice?'
As long as they're similar, I've got no complaints.
To illustrate, if a PvP focused player comes to a farming spot where someone is flexing their PvE skill, chooses to fight that player, and the player thinks 'This person probably can't farm this same spot, they'll die due to insufficient PvE skill', the answer is literally to get out of the way and let them try. Maybe help them out and make a friend even.
My only problem is that the way most games are designed, the PvP player just moves into the area when they are higher level, or clears much slower so they don't die, but still attempt to hold the spot via PvP even when they aren't so great at it. I don't think Ashes has this problem, if the opponent has less PvE skill, just disrupt their battle by attacking them so the enemy Mob wins. Don't need a giant pile of PvP skill for that.
However when we are talking about gathering, suddenly this matters a lot. So I ask you this. If you are trying to gather and my group of 5 comes along and says 'you can't gather here, move along', will you fight?
Who told you I don't partake in hardcore PvE??
Who said I wouldn't partake in a WoW mythic?
Even if I were to avoid fighting such mobs - I wouldn't avoid exploring their lairs.
I just told you why.
AI cannot match the ruthless and exploitative natures of Humans - not with the same behavior. And, when they can. I won't play those games, either.
It's not just the combat itself. I can find ways to circumvent AI in a manner that is not possible with Humans.
Kind of like how Taunt works on mobs, but does not work on Humans.
That's close enough that I won't do the actual nit-picks.
Note that in that case I was mostly targeting the idea of 'interest', not 'skill'.
Let's assume for whatever reason that someone was so incredibly skilled at PvE that they were ALWAYS the highest level person on the server. That they always had the best gear. This would be a form of balance, but even they might not have interest if the reason for this was 'this game is easy and I can just breeze through it'.
In fact, let's assume that PvP-focused players, by their nature, in Ashes, are ALWAYS underleveled and undergeared relative to PvE-focused players that start at the same time and play the same amount. The game's goal (in my mind) if trying to make the game PvX would be to somehow incentivize those PvE players to help the PvP player gear up, increase PvE skill if necessary, gain levels.
I would expect PvP players to have less interest in a game like this. To 'desire for gear and potions to be less effective' perhaps. But maybe not, so if that turns out to be the way it is (I see this as a balance requjrement, the PvP player has more skill but less gear so they lose), then so be it.
I assume we are talking about focusing on a PvP build here:
Less efficient farming, that is the consequence. You trade off your efficiency in PvE-Scenarios to accommodate your need for more PvP Tools.
Any point you set into your pvp capabilities is a point that could have been spent optimizing your performance in PvE.
No, why would i fight 5 people? Id either keep gathering and see if one of them has the balls to go corrupt in order to stop me. I would get 4 people myself or I would move on and i wouldnt be mad about it.
Thats part of it being a MMO designed towards competition between players. If there is a bigger fish then you, either group and overthrow them, move away and do something else, join them. Do whatever, really.
You say yourself that So I meant that you wouldn't interact with the mob gameplay of hardcore pve content. Because to most people, when they hear "hardcore pve" they think about some difficult dungeons with difficult mobs/bosses.
Yes, you might explore those locations while minimizing the mob interactions, and that in itself could be seen as hardcore exploration due to its high risks, but I was talking about the mobs themselves, because the conversation so far has been about the difference between fighting a mob and fighting a human (well, at least I've been trying to talk about this).
And afaik stuff like mythics and ultimates either have the exact same locations as the weaker versions of that content or have such high skill/effort requirements from each member that you wouldn't be taken to those locations just because the raid would fail if you couldn't fully participate in the mob part of the content.
And I'd personally want mobs to be as ruthless as people, but, as you said, you wouldn't play such a game either, which kinda brings us back to my line of "people don't pvp out of principle". If mobs are as close to players in their difficulty as possible - you won't play with such mobs, which tells me that you "don't pvp out of principle" even if that "pvp" comes in the form of mobs. That's completely understandable and fine, but that is exactly why I mentioned you in that original post.
The skilled player also has a disadvantage in a contest of pve skill in your scenario for the same reasons they have a disadvantage in pvp. If you are going to do something like that, i'm not sure why you would assume you could only focus on one skill type.
But I realize that we live in a too dualismic of society for that to ever happen in the way I want it to. Both sides will just complain that they're being made to do smth they don't want and will just leave, which to me is very sad
And...when I do, I'm pretty sure I can manage adds, etc. So...if I'm there and I don't want to fight...it's highly likely that I won't have to fight.
I mean some people assume that the issue is about combat difficulty. As in up your skills. And I'm saying that has nothing to do with my issue. My issue is that I want more control over when I'm in a hardcore battle than being in a zone that auto-flags for PvP.
That is one of my personal thresholds... I imagine lots of people don't have that line.
Again, I would say that I like to "PvP out of principle"...sometimes.
Well, I usually agree those opinions you gave, but those too much relate to fighting game I stay as natural, so yes I can feel you are a PvX player.
I think Intrepid want to make a PvX game, but is now an era that a PvX game able to live and shine? I'm not feel good about it. Because players now more willing to play game with "game modes" in stead of a single game world players share and play to each other. To me, I feel is some players are glass heart and some players are just don't know the line where is fun and where is toxic, in short most people lost the golden spirit to have a real PvX mmorpg.