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PvX tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward

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Comments

  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    Warth wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Note that in that case I was mostly targeting the idea of 'interest', not 'skill'.

    Let's assume for whatever reason that someone was so incredibly skilled at PvE that they were ALWAYS the highest level person on the server. That they always had the best gear. This would be a form of balance, but even they might not have interest if the reason for this was 'this game is easy and I can just breeze through it'.

    In fact, let's assume that PvP-focused players, by their nature, in Ashes, are ALWAYS underleveled and undergeared relative to PvE-focused players that start at the same time and play the same amount. The game's goal (in my mind) if trying to make the game PvX would be to somehow incentivize those PvE players to help the PvP player gear up, increase PvE skill if necessary, gain levels.

    If they are part of your guild/community/alliance, sure you would want to help them be more proficient in the game. However, why would you want to help anybody else? Your potential enemies, your competition? Hell No. This isnt a cooperative game where everybody is supposed to have a happy time together. Its a game based on scarcity, competition and conflict.
    Azherae wrote: »
    I would expect PvP players to have less interest in a game like this. To 'desire for gear and potions to be less effective' perhaps. But maybe not, so if that turns out to be the way it is (I see this as a balance requjrement, the PvP player has more skill but less gear so they lose), then so be it.

    There is tons of "hardcore" PvP players who only ever want to PvP, preferably without deep progression, without having to put in much effort to gear. Many of them moved to moba-like games or games that feature standalone arena type pvp long ago.

    Ashes isnt designed for them, the same way it isnt designed for those that want to pve exclusively. Intrepid has been pretty clear about that, no?

    If you can't solo and getting raided/ ambushed/ surprised then you want a group. If your group and success makes you a target to NPC enemies then you may want an even larger group.
    And if you want the help of skilled players that fit some niche use you can't get elsewhere then you will make friends in all likelihood.
    I'm over-simplifying but it's just plain up to the player how they play lol; one extreme or the other. See someone having a hard time? Kill em and rob 'em. Sure. Everyone loses their loot on death and death isn't infrequent though -- that would be nice. Then there's changing dynamics rather that static ones. . . highs and lows, changing direction, adaptation, whatever.

    Imagine that nodes don't handle the problems in their area. They fail. Now those problems seek out other nodes and they suffer both their own and other's problems.
    Imagine if the players could lose and the server has to reset back to day 1 LOL your characters RESET BOY

    RESET

    TRY AGAIN
    YOU LOSE lol

    glorious salt. real animosity. real player feuds & fumes
    It's about the journey, right?

  • akabearakabear Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2022
    Noaani wrote: »
    akabear wrote: »
    I have run solo a good 15-20min in pvp with a large group of enemy chasing after.. picking off the ones weaker ones that strayed to their front but mostly to annoy and tease while buying time for my own guild to group up, setup and lead them to an ambush.. (l2 buffs only lasted max 20min.. so small group pvp rounds without top up buffs rarely lasted longer) (large scale pvp a different issue)

    Running too uncontested for long enough was a strategy to log off while still in pvp.. so wonder in AoC if one has to be static or just not engaged to log out.

    Yeah, but that is just PvP for the sake of PvP.

    It isnt meaningful in any way. It is a situation that can and will be present in any open world PvP game.
    George_Black wrote: »
    It's simple rly..
    All Im saying is that PvP felt pointless in AA. If Savannah was a pvp zone you'd just go to perinoor. Nobody would pvp there. As long as there are gimmicks "this zone is now pvp and this isnt" people will either go to the peaceful zone and continue with almost 0 incidents, or they will go to the PvP zone to see if there is anybody left to punch up with.

    The only reason you would go to one zone instead of another is if you didnt have any plan as to what you were doing. Sure, if you were just wandering around aimlessly, you may stick to an area without PvP - but you wouldn't have anything to do.

    This is why it is literally the same deal as logging out of any other game.

    Take this back to L2, if you have no specific reason to be in an area, what point is there to PvP in that area? Sure, PvP may happen, but that PvP would then be the definition of pointless, because you have no reason to be in that area and so have no specific reason - or point - to fighting to stay there.

    The simple fast that in Archeage you COULD just walk away from PvP meant that pointless PvP happened less often, as when PvP happened it was because both sides had something they wanted to actually fight over.

    If you dont like the way Archeage allowed players safe zones where they didnt need to PvP, that's fine - you are allowed to not like that, may people that played the game for years didnt like it. However, it doesnt mean there was no point to PvP in Archeage - it literally meant pointless PvP was able to just be avoided.

    Any PvP that had some sort of point to it still took place - people weren't running off to safe areas when there was something of note on the line.

    Perhaps by PvP feeling pointless you actually meant that you didnt like the fact that you couldn't engage in pointless PvP in some parts of Archeage... as a statement that actually makes sense.

    Your comments suggest whilst you have played a pvp game, you are not a pvp`er and/or competed with any real risk.



    Sure Pvp was fun.. some fights had not other reason that to prove who was better or improve skills. (just the xp loss was a killer)

    But more often, Sort-term pvp fights were often for longer-term goals. By being forceful in an area helped lay claim to that territory for peaceful pve. The weaker guild would just cease to enter.

    L2 was frequently about politics, territories and boundaries. Maintaining territory during regular time, also lead to more success during castle sieges.. Guilds would back off contesting.. and owning a castle brought great wealth.

    PvE territorial claims through PvP or Pk`ing would go through stages. Some more bountiful areas became off limits for periods of time while the stronger guild laid claim.

    For smaller / less powerful clans that could not fight on equal terms would play harassment to the weaker enemy guild members that were found vulnerable by gear, level or lack of numbers and by pushing them out of an area pursuaded the enemy guild as a collective to back off for the sake of their pve members.

    PvP quite often was to stop other guilds going towards or into dungeons were other more pve orientated members were pve`ing.

    Going red, knowing you might lose gear that took you 6-9 months of pve get and setback for 50% longer than that if you lost was the risk.

    With similarities in proposed mechanics in Ashes, albeit watered down, is what ex-L2 players look forward to.
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    Strevi wrote: »
    .
    JamesSunderland wrote: »
    Reading the recent threads regarding the Lawless Open Sea, i saw a sentiment from people more PvE oriented, it seems like they believe that the open seas are a area with PvX more tilted towards PvP High Risk vs High Reward and it made think of the possibility of a Area with PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward.

    In this thread, i would like people to discuss and give their opinions and ideas towards the concept of "PvX more tilted towards PvE High Risk vs High Reward".

    Taking care of crops can be a risky business too if blight hits them.
    Then low quality food may cause food poisoning to many players...

    Holy shit I just imagined some NPC sneaking in and poisoning fields and wells. Literal well poisoners. Wow. Great idea man; plague bringers included. Nurgle, WoW Scourge; disease stuff is cool.
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    George_Black wrote: »
    You quoted me before noanni but I let it slide, but it seems to me that you, like some others, cant see the big picture.

    People will come to play AoC no matter how some here cry about pvp oceans, no instanced content, no rp servers, no dps meters etc etc etc.

    I dont pay attention to all the "I won't play", or "you wont get many of these type of players".
    This game will be the most alive feeling mmo (even without all the lame real life simulation systems suggested from time to time from people that want for example to weave baskets as a profession).

    Start getting the big picture kids, and the reason for all the systems. If AoC polishes things this will be the only mmo.

    Yes I would like basket weaving. What else will you use to carry your shit after you die and respawn 5 minutes later naked and afraid in some cave?
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Sapiverenus wrote: »
    Dygz wrote: »
    AI cannot match the ruthless and exploitative natures of Humans - not with the same behavior. And, when they can. I won't play those games, either.
    It's not just the combat itself. I can find ways to circumvent AI in a manner that is not possible with Humans.
    Kind of like how Taunt works on mobs, but does not work on Humans.

    Just join a gang. lol. A guild or some kind of group in other words. Game isn't meant to played solo afterall. That's the circumvent.
    WTH does playing solo have to do with with what I said???
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    edited September 2022
    akabear wrote: »
    I think it is hard to explain L2 to those that did not experience its near end game. Yes, it had pvp and there has never been another MMO experience quite a impactful since.



    In order to pvp, one had to pve.. UNLESS you were very, very good and managed not to die.. and that fortune was probably only limited to half a dozens pvp`ers on the server.. and when they stuffed up in pvp and died and had to get their xp back like the rest of us, their roar of complaint in chat made every personal loss all the more joyful.

    You see in L2, I could lose 2% of my level xp in 2-5min of pvp.. that could take me 4-8hrs to recover in pve time.

    I lost 10% one time, defending the doors to for a boss raid, took me 40+ hrs to recover the xp. FOR ONE RAID that I defended for the guild but was not required to participate in (wrong class)

    Losses in PvP were hellishly impactful. But there was sooo much PvE required to PvP alot.

    It was a PvX game but really 95% pve, 5% pvp (if you so chose)

    Comparitively, with Ashes being sooooo easy to get to level cap, I cannot see XP loss being impactful at all.. so then if your good at making money on the market.. you have little to risk in PK, PvP

    Aweful design. In general I mean. I get that people want to zone out and play Runescape or whatever grindfests but I think that level of tedium should be from softlocks on daily/weekly progress and especially for off-class character progressions. Wizards trying to increase Strength should have a real hard time of it but still be capable.


    XP gain should be from use not kill. Mining should increase Str for instance. Sprinting around spamming the SPRINT key should increase Agility, Stamina, and some Strength given a low enough STR level or with enough encumberance.

    Effeciency drop should be introduced often. It helps direct a player's focus but allows for some "beefed up" off-meta characters while still allowing grindcore players something to do. This can boils down to the Stamina attribute and Exhaustion mechanics.
    Dygz wrote: »
    Sapiverenus wrote: »
    Just join a gang. lol. A guild or some kind of group in other words. Game isn't meant to played solo afterall. That's the circumvent.

    WTH does playing solo have to do with with what I said???

    to not get exploited
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    How does one get "exploited" by AI??
  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    George_Black wrote: »
    Noaani wrote: »
    George_Black wrote: »
    Ye whatever man. Nobody else is interested.

    I don't care if no one else is interested.

    You were factually incorrect, and you know perfectly well that I will not leave that uncontested on these forums.

    Pick your words better next time.

    Small man.

    It took you three days to come up with that?
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    Dygz wrote: »
    How does one get "exploited" by AI??

    Reread your message I responded to.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2022
    Sapiverenus wrote: »
    Reread your message I responded to.
    I did. And...your response still has absolutely nothing to do with what I said... as far as I can tell.
    In a group or with a guild...I'd want to be fighting AI; not other players.
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    @Dygz

    But what's the exploitation then.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 2022
    Any exploit and borderline exploit gamers can think of.
    Humans are creative and conniving in ways that AI cannot be.
    NiKr wrote: »
    When PvE players realize that they can fight back against players the same way they would fight back against an agro mob who attacked them first.
    Dygz wrote:
    Um. AI cannot yet play the same way Humans play.
    And, I would not play a game where AI fights the same way Humans fight.
  • SapiverenusSapiverenus Member
    @Dygz
    lol what exploits though. Most exploits in a game can be patched pretty easily.
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