Feedback: We love the open sea PvP change - now, what about open PvP zones for World Bosses?

High risk, high reward, the open sea change was one of the best possible changes Intrepid made, now, we know that on the open seas we will have unique NPCs and rewards, but the best gear and materials that are legendary tier only drop from legendary world bosses,

because of that, I would love to see the area around the legendary world bosses being open pvp zones as well, so people can't abuse the corruption system and rely on that to try to do the legendary world bosses without the risk of being killed by other Guilds

the corruption system is amazing but it should be used only for it's intended purpose: deter ganking and PKing in the open world where there is nothing to gain, I feel like Legendary World bosses fall under the same ruleset as the open seas, and because of that I would love to see this change.

I feel like similar to the open seas, this would help to protect the PvErs in the game, by alleviating the need for gankers to PK random people, since now they have the oceans and they would also have the open world bosses areas to PK, and this would make the content even more challenging, and reducing the number of people that have access to Legendary gear, making it actually Legendary and not the "endgame" set that every guild can obtain.

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Strevi

Liniker wrote: »

I feel like similar to the open seas, this would help to protect the PvErs in the game, by alleviating the need for gankers to PK random people, since now they have the oceans and they would also have the open world bosses areas to PK, and this would make the content even more challenging, and reducing the number of people that have access to Legendary gear, making it actually Legendary and not the "endgame" set that every guild can obtain.

Now that the weekend is over, I see this as a very good idea.

Scarbeus

While I'm against this idea all I can really say is that as I never played A1 that we should perhaps test things like this in A2. So, as a result we should let this argument simmer down and see what happens. There have been games that have done one or the other, but how will it work in AoC? Let's just find out shall we.

Aerlana

Liniker wrote: »

it's not meant to be a mechanic to use to wipe out other groups during a boss fight.

I don't see the rpoblem again... if you think it is efficient to get a small nerf (because low corruption) to steal the boss while close to death, or simply... to avoid the rival guild to get loots, you will do it.

I honestly don't understand people fearing so much getting corrupt, of they "don't farm it" ... already considering that killing few people will nerf them to the ground. . .
On other side there are topics saying there will be way to limit the corruption death penalty (the real problem being there).

You say it increase risk to allow free PvP on boss : sure, but for the team who pulls boss, for the team "ganking" it is less risk, and for both, rewards remain same.

Songcaller

I was under the impression corruption doesn't affect pve ability, only pvp ability. Not sure what all the bitching is about.

Dygz

It's all the same ability.

Strevi

The Unified Ability Theory.
NPC / PC = Gold^2 / Karma

Songcaller

Dygz wrote: »

It's all the same ability.

I severely doubt that. The only way to clear corruption without death is via pve.

Liniker

Neurath wrote: »

I was under the impression corruption doesn't affect pve ability, only pvp ability. Not sure what all the bitching is about.

nobody bitching, the title is "what about" with a question mark at the end, it's called suggesting
and discussing something.

I personally don't see the point of having corruption in highly competitive legendary world bosses, I don't fear it nor will it prevent large guilds to dominate and roll over small groups - I only see it as a stepping stone

and tbh if anyone think it will help smaller groups, or solo players, or it will prevent/deter PK from zergs or do Anything else rather than being an annoyance during the content.. i think they have unrealistic expectations about the game

Dygz

Neurath wrote: »

I severely doubt that. The only way to clear corruption without death is via pve.

Gaining xp slowly reduces Corruption score.
What does that have to do with abilities being the same?

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

Gaining xp slowly reduces Corruption score.
What does that have to do with abilities being the same?

I think he meant overall ability to do that content. Being severely red will dampen your pvp stats, while your pve ones won't be touched. I think that's what Neurath was talking about.

CROW3

Liniker wrote: »

and tbh if anyone think it will help smaller groups, or solo players, or it will prevent/deter PK from zergs or do Anything else rather than being an annoyance during the content.. i think they have unrealistic expectations about the game

It’s designed to prevent this in excess. This is the function of corruption that we’ll be testing and assisting the devs to appropriately calibrate during A2.

So, I guess we’ll see how far those knobs are turned as it’s built, but I’m hoping you’re going to be part of that testing as well.

The broader the audience, the better it will be.

Dygz

NiKr wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Gaining xp slowly reduces Corruption score.
What does that have to do with abilities being the same?

I think he meant overall ability to do that content. Being severely red will dampen your pvp stats, while your pve ones won't be touched. I think that's what Neurath was talking about.

I still don't understand what that is supposed to mean.
Corruption dampens Adventurer abilities - combat abilities. It does not dampen Artisan abilities.
Stats are "PvX" just as gear is "PvX".

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

I still don't understand what that is supposed to mean.
Corruption dampens Adventurer abilities - combat abilities. It does not dampen Artisan abilities.
Stats are "PvX" just as gear is "PvX".

PvE includes mobs. And you can't say "pvx stats" when corruption dampens only the pvp part, which means that there is a separation between the two in the system.

I got no idea how exactly it's supposed to work, but that's what they've said.
"The more skill and stat dampening applies (lower health and mana, lower gear proficiency), until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat.[8][17][18] This dampening only affects PvP combat.[19]"

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The reason I would want all world bosses to be like this (with a one per week spawn regime) is because it will build tension and drama over time. Different guilds and alliances will make agreements to join up for world bosses in order to dislodge the top tier guilds - and while these alliances will be system based, they will also be very temporary.

My main doubt with this kind of system would be, in fact, the drama part. If everyone's alerted and "invited" to these bosses and can then sign up to sides - it'd be similar to LFRs and the stuff like that

Not really.

You aren't being invited in to the group or raid of the side you are joining.

If you are a solo player and you come across a boss that has an AoE or some such, you aren't going to fare well. You still need to be in an organized raid that knows what they are doing to have any chance of just staying alive, let alone being useful.

It would perhaps be fair to only allow raids of 16 or more players (any less than that and you shouldn't stand a chance of survival) to join a side so that individual players do not get the wrong idea.

As to the spawn time, my assumption is that top end players will be able to get most of the way around the world in 45 minutes (if I were running a guild with this system, we would all be near the middle of the map, by the coast, with our fastest ships summoned). This gives guilds that are based closer to the encounter spawn a small head start, but it shouldn't be one that is not insurmountable.

If it turns out that half an hour isn't long enough, just increase the time. It's an MMO, we have patches every week for small changes like this.

As to the drama, the entire point of it is to kind of increase this a little.

In my experience of contested content in both Archeage and EQ2, drama around bosses is only ever a good thing if multiple guilds are getting kills. In situations where only one guild gets the kill, the other guilds stop showing up (and generally leave the game, in my experience).

The way bosses are set up in most games, the more of them you kill, the more of them you are likely to continue to kill - as you have better gear to be better able to take on the PvP that will be thrown at you. You are also in a better position to form alliances with other guilds on your server - I mean, if you were running a guild and were approached by a guild that has kill the last 12 boss spawns in a row and one that has killed none, and both ask you for an alliance, with no other detail I know which one I would be talking to first.

The system above "should" have things in a way where it is more likely that different guilds will get boss kills more often - and that is a good thing for literally every player in the game.

Even if one guild found that due to poor RNG they missed out on a reasonable shot at a boss, all that will do is heighten the dram on the next spawn where all guilds have an equal shot - so your concern as to some guilds sometimes missing out isn't actually an inherently bad thing (though again, is easily dealt with via a small patch to increase the notification time if deemed necessary).

akabear

Strevi wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

I agree with legendary materials to drop from legendary world bosses but not with legendary gear.
Let people who are crafters to have their place in the game too.

At least let the gear be rare and materials more frequent.
As a crafter I don't care who kills the boss really.

but you need to remember that crafters don't gather the legendary mats, that is the job of master gatherers, crafters use the mats after they get gathered and processed

That's fine. Then master gatherers will be in the middle of the action too.
I thought the unprocessed things are called resources and after are processed are called materials.

Liniker wrote: »

the corruption system is amazing but it should be used only for it's intended purpose: deter ganking and PKing in the open world where there is nothing to gain,

I don't know how anyone can tell if there is something to gain or not.
If I run between nodes as a high skilled crafter, they cannot tell if I am loaded with Tier 4 materials or not, right? They have to attack me and see what drops. That is part of the game but I will not take often the risk to do that run, if I can pay others to do the job for me.

Actually, I thought there were going to be "tells" on your character as to how much you were laden and perhaps even with what. Meaning your backpack and equipment visually changed.. remember the discussion, no idea if any movement on it

Dygz

Yes. Corruption does not only dampen the PvP part as far as I know.
I found it "battle efficacy for PvP only."

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Yes. Corruption does not only dampen the PvP part as far as I know.
I found it "battle efficacy for PvP only."

Corruption causes stat and skill dampening that only applies to PvP against non-bounty hunters.

XP debt causes stat and skill dampening that applies across the board.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Not really.
You aren't being invited in to the group or raid of the side you are joining.

If you are a solo player and you come across a boss that has an AoE or some such, you aren't going to fare well. You still need to be in an organized raid that knows what they are doing to have any chance of just staying alive, let alone being useful.

It would perhaps be fair to only allow raids of 16 or more players (any less than that and you shouldn't stand a chance of survival) to join a side so that individual players do not get the wrong idea.

I guess that could work.

Noaani wrote: »

As to the spawn time
, my assumption is that top end players will be able to get most of the way around the world in 45 minutes (if I were running a guild with this system, we would all be near the middle of the map, by the coast, with our fastest ships summoned). This gives guilds that are based closer to the encounter spawn a small head start, but it shouldn't be one that is not insurmountable.

If it turns out that half an hour isn't long enough, just increase the time. It's an MMO, we have patches every week for small changes like this.

As to the drama, the entire point of it is to kind of increase this a little.

In my experience of contested content in both Archeage and EQ2, drama around bosses is only ever a good thing if multiple guilds are getting kills. In situations where only one guild gets the kill, the other guilds stop showing up (and generally leave the game, in my experience).

The way bosses are set up in most games, the more of them you kill, the more of them you are likely to continue to kill - as you have better gear to be better able to take on the PvP that will be thrown at you. You are also in a better position to form alliances with other guilds on your server - I mean, if you were running a guild and were approached by a guild that has kill the last 12 boss spawns in a row and one that has killed none, and both ask you for an alliance, with no other detail I know which one I would be talking to first.

The system above "should" have things in a way where it is more likely that different guilds will get boss kills more often - and that is a good thing for literally every player in the game.

Even if one guild found that due to poor RNG they missed out on a reasonable shot at a boss, all that will do is heighten the dram on the next spawn where all guilds have an equal shot - so your concern as to some guilds sometimes missing out isn't actually an inherently bad thing (though again, is easily dealt with via a small patch to increase the notification time if deemed necessary).

These two things seem to contradict each other though. You either have a fully random spawner with short notice so that more guilds have higher chances to be the ones to get the boss, or you have a longer notice and have the big guild always win because they can dominate anyone smaller w/o too many problems.

I could maybe see a 2 boss setup, where, out of potential 12 bosses, half would spawn on the eastern continent and half on the western. And we apply your suggestion of random spawn but to both continents at the same time. And after some period of time we could have the super epic ocean boss spawn. This way you'd give guilds on both continents assured drops and then pit them against each other during the ocean fight. We'd pretty much create a "faction"-based system, but with more internal drama for each "faction" because guilds on either continent can still fight each other for content if they see a benefit in that.

Liniker

CROW3 wrote: »

It’s designed to prevent this in excess. This is the function of corruption that we’ll be testing and assisting the devs to appropriately calibrate during A2.

For the general open world PK sure, but i was referring to Legendary world bosses, which has one of the Best rewards in the game... the reward is way to high for corruption to deter any kind of PK whatsoever, it will do nothing besides being annoying, but zergs will 100% dominate and PK other people during that particular content, that's why I don't see the point in having corruption there

ofc you are correct when it comes down to the general open world, completely different case when it comes down to PKing a random gatherer in the open world

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

These two things seem to contradict each other though. You either have a fully random spawner with short notice so that more guilds have higher chances to be the ones to get the boss, or you have a longer notice and have the big guild always win because they can dominate anyone smaller w/o too many problems.

I think you are working on the assumption that all guilds will use the same basic tactic.

If I were running a top end guild in a game with a system like this, I would locate myself centrally, and travel to the spawn as it is announced. I may get there 10 - 15 minutes late, but that shouldn't be an issue.

If I am one step down from that, I may position myself equidistant from three or so spawns on one continent. I know that if the spawn happens on another continent I am not going to have a shot at it, but if it is any of these three, I'm in with a good chance at getting enough damage in before the larger guilds get here so that it is hard for them to get credit (remember, most damage to the boss wins, and since HP isn't restored or replenished, and since the mob doesn't reset, all damage from the time it spawns counts).

Perhaps as an aspect of being a smaller guild, I have made an agreement with a smaller guild on the other continent that we would come to their aide if the spawn is on their continent, and they come to our aide if it is on ours. These guilds will perhaps take 50 - 60 minutes to get to the boss, meaning it has been happening for 20 - 30 minutes by the time they get there, but that additional reinforcement may be what is needed to prevent the top guild that showed up 15 minutes through from getting the kill.

If you are a part of a very large alliance, you could even split your forces up in to three - have one part on each continent centrally located between the spawns there, and have the third part stationed central to the whole map to go to the spawn, likely arriving a little late.

You could also potentially be a smaller guild that knows they have no shot at any of the bosses, but sets up a perimeter around a spawn location, causing issues with others trying to get to that location if that is the boss that shows up (guilds won't want experience debt when taking on bosses).

The thing that all of this will also do is see different guilds showing up to the fight at different times. This means the ebb and flow of the fight will always be in flux.

This makes the fight MUCH more interesting than a fight where the spawn time and location is known, and everyone is there waiting for it - the outcome of these fights is usually known the week before the spawn happens.

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