but then, there is no risk for the gatherer...it goes against the design philosophy.
how?
basically if you are flagged for PVP and you gather PVP resources then you should be able to be vulnerable to attack.
Maybe have different percentages of mats that can be taken if your on PVP or non PVP mode and have those better mats for PVP only attainable when in PVP mode from the nodes.
risk for reward vs be safe..
That could work if they also add PvP and PvE gear.
But it would be more work than setting the PvP flag opt-in, like New World did.
Of course less people will set it to on because the idea is to have risk and to try to minimize it. Having a manual easy disable is like having difficulty settings in the game: you want a legendary armor from that raid? Set the flag to easy and get it.
Such settings make no sense.
Or maybe it could if you prevent for PvE players the high quality rare tier resources and gear.
Farming iron should be safe and time consuming, collecting rare pieces of mithril should be dangerous but fast, as they deplete fast.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
but then, there is no risk for the gatherer...it goes against the design philosophy.
how?
basically if you are flagged for PVP and you gather PVP resources then you should be able to be vulnerable to attack.
Maybe have different percentages of mats that can be taken if your on PVP or non PVP mode and have those better mats for PVP only attainable when in PVP mode from the nodes.
risk for reward vs be safe..
so everytime you arent flagged for pvp, theres 0 risk for you, only rewards.
fyi i suck at explaining..
so if you are flagged for PVP you can get special Mat eg ones that help only in PVP.
if you arent flagged for PVP youy cant gather those mats and you can only get mats that are basic or have little to no help in PVP crafting.
maybe go as far as if you have gathered PVP mats you cant un-toggle yourself from PVP mode til you use it for crafting or put in bank.
so attacking a non PVP player wont be worth as much in collecting mats then a PVP player.
also the whole different amount of mats that can be taken if you are in PVP mode or not.
PvX game. No separating the PvP and PvE. Hard no to your suggestion for this particular games design.
so if you arent flagged for pvp, you can only get pve mats and you cant be killed. aka no risks, only rewards
.....
also, we would lose all the advantages of the open world pvp system. also the corruption system is pointless then...
you still can be killed while in non PVP just the rewards of mats arent as good or as many then killing someone in PVP mode.
i told you i suck at explaining
Killing and death are not important.
If gathering naked ensures keeping resources while being violated more often... I'll choose keeping the resources.
Everybody will gather naked then.
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
Hey all! I dont know if this idea has been already said, but the Devs could:
* Create a BIG island and/or continent in the middle of the map surrounded by water that is PVP active (Something in the lines of WOW's Tol Barad, but at a greater scale with a different scope). Since Open Sea is contested territory (PVP), all goes .... might as well prepare folks to shift the mindset to a full PVP-mode. This way there can be a part in the world that is full PVP driven (Its Nodes, leaders, quests, economy, etc..). It also can provide more PVP content to what has already been envisioned. This way different society types can develop as they want and choose.
* Since this is a Gatherer's discussion. Apart from dungeons or World-Bosses, there could also be mid-high end resources in these parts. Making the economy even stronger, where PVP-Gatherers can sell local-items to the general public. (Doing Caravans from these PVP zones to other locations for an increase price since the PVE Gatherers might not engage in that area). And yes, I am all for making PVP, PVE zones and anything in between. This will create a more stable diversity among player types and not only that, but also will unify us, where we all can contribute in the greater world design. PVPrs get what they want, PVErs get what they want, and all in between get what they want.
One of the major benefit of having something like this is that it controls gaining Corruption for players that want a "Ride or Die" experience. We all can have a place in the world of Verra.
Remember folks, dont take things so literal and/or personal... In the end, these discussions are all feedback for the moderators to relay to Intrepid on how/what the community thinks, etc.
Always envision something better for all .......
So PVE folks, get with the program, there could be PVP zones with activities that could interest you into risking some type of exposure and/or compromise.
I think that mitigating the loss of gathering must be earned.
If the gatherer defends himself then he reduces his loss! This will encourage PvP and eliminate the risk of corruption for the ganker.
there Should always be a risk for gathering or transporting goods in the open world following the risk vs reward design. This is a core principle in the game and I would hate to see this being changed, and ways of mitigating these drops would be a terrible design idea that takes out this risk.
I think that mitigating the loss of gathering must be earned.
If the gatherer defends himself then he reduces his loss! This will encourage PvP and eliminate the risk of corruption for the ganker.
there Should always be a risk for gathering or transporting goods in the open world following the risk vs reward design. This is a core principle in the game and I would hate to see this being changed, and ways of mitigating these drops would be a terrible design idea that takes out this risk.
This video is basically says exactly what i trying to say. Open World PVP outside of control is never fair, if your game has the opportunity to griff people, such opportunity will be abused to the maximum possible extent.
ill watch the full video later but he said the system wont protect players, then he said steven needs to add systems around it to protect non griefers. but it turns out this isnt a copy paste of l2 system...it has other stuffs added to it /facepalm
its not the exact system as l2. aoc has the bounty hunter system, the stat dampening system when you gain corruption (which will prevent players to go on a pk spree, since they will be easily defeated, even by a low level) and you only lose your gear when you die as a corrupted player.
yes, there will be some pk, but not as much as you would think. it will mostly be for leveling spots in some areas. most people arent going to be randomly killing people gathering or leveling. there will be pvp from cp tho for a farming spot.
also, fyi, l2 has different versions. when the game released, you could lose any item on death (from pvp or mobs), including your gear (which was extremely hard to acquire back then). it was easier to lose gear and harder to acquire, and the game didnt die, did it? plus exp loss plus death penalties (stat dampening basically).
eventually, things were changed. you could only lose items if you died red (corrupted in aoc language). then a stone was added that u could put in ur weapon so that u wouldnt lose it, even if u were red. then things were added to protect your chest armor...then jewels,=...then a different version of the game released called l2 essence where you can basically pk with no consequence. literally no consequence at all, u dont lose anything, no gear, nothing and it was a more solo oriented game...and even then, most people dont go around pking for no reason. ppl only pked if you were in their leveling spot or if you killed their low level alts.
also, in l2 you have skills such as return, party return and items such as blessed scroll of escape (bsoe), which allow you to teleport back to safety instantly and avoid dying (you would mostly use them if you were red or if you didnt want to lose exp). i havent seen any indication in AOC of such mechanic (plus steven has talked about no instant teleportation). also, karma was very easily cleansed unless you killed a million low levels.
the systems in l2 encourages pking a little bit more, because there is also more safety for pkers. im not saying you will be completely safe in aoc. expect to be killed if you are deep inside a dungeon and you are controlling the best farming spot though. you will also die when your guild is fighting over a raid boss or an area. but other than that, most people will leave you alone unless you annoy them. also consider that there will be people where you are farming, so if someone randomly pk you, they will die instantly to a mob of players making it not worth it for them to pk you in the first place.
havent watched the full video yet, but from the lil bit i watched, the creator has no idea what he is talking about. ill watch it later and comment again
Sounds like the game “isn’t for you”. WoW and Final Fantasy will gladly take you back, heard some new cool expansion is coming out.
Don't be so defensive. If AoC wants to be successful MMO, WoW and Final Fantasy is the first place to look for ideas. WoW is the most popular MMO of all time and FF14 not to much behind. However, i don't like both of this games, their gameplay lack player agency and good massive PVP. Both of this thigs i expect from AoC. But i want the good story and solo gameplay too, just player agency don't automatically makes game better, just look on the Life is Feudal... Upss, you cant because that game die.
It’s not being defensive your just trying to recreate the same MMO that has been done since 2004. You want “good and massive” PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful? Because why your afraid people will quit? People are going to quit the moment they see it doesn’t have a group finder.
Nobody is going to doubt you on pure figures alone that hardcore Full Loot MMOs do worse then other games. But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory. That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online…
Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers. Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop.
Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner. But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years.
Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases.
"PvP but don’t want to try to have a system that makes in meaningful" - it doesn't make PVP meaningful. Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars - this makes PVP meaningful, drooping loot on death doesn't do anything positive for the game.
"But this isn’t even close to hardcore at all…it’s literally half loot of farmed inventory" - yeah, but with a tip of a dick in the ass, life is worse than without it.
"That’s literally crumbs compared to Eve and Mortal Online" - both of this games have very low online btw.
"Life is Feudal? Your literally pulling out dogshit Russian games that were more or less a cash grab made by a bunch of brain dead developers." - i know, but any other hardcore MMO follow the similar path.
"Even then that game was a pure full loot MMO with literally nothing to do but shovel dirt build a castle and wait to PvP. It’s like saying rust is bad because you get raided…it’s the main gameplay loop." - Rust is not MMO in any sense, for 8 hours of gameplay of rust you can literally build a house and get some decent weapons. For 8 hours in any MMO you probably farm some gold too buy like a 1/4 of the couch for you house. In Rust formula works because you earned fast you lose fast. In MMO you earned very slow, but still lose very fast.
"Steven is actively trying to make a new system that is rewarding for both groups of people. A way to bridge the gap we’re both groups feel rewarded but not harassed and don’t feel like they are being thrown to the back burner." - exactly why i watch development process, i have high hopes for this game.
" But instead you just want to default back to the same boring shit people have been playing for years" - no, boring shit people have been playing for years is open PVP with some loot drop when you die, Linage 2 for example. And don't blame fall of linage on the monetization practice, yes it is finally killed a game, but even in linage prime its non been even a fraction as popular as WoW without such a mechanic. I fall in love in AoC because of the NOD system, Castle sieges, City sieges, Caravan raids, Guild Wars, Naval Content etc. Not because i want to lose my shit on death.
"Let them implement the proposed system and let it play out. And I’m not talking about during alpha 2 because people will play way differently in that stage of the game then when it full releases" - i totally agree, but this is forum discussion of the particular issue, so stop trying to accusing me in sabotaging the game, and lets have a normal conversation.
Let’s take it from the top then…
1. All of the proposed system do allow for better PvP but to argue that slight inventory loot drop doesn't provide value is crazy. I’m assuming you played new world and you can clearly see how in shambles that game was and how terrible that economy and botting was. There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed. Where is the risk v reward? Oh you died and respawned will all your shit? Cool thanks you fast traveled me back to the town.
2. Yes I literally said full loot games do not have the #’s like WoW so obviously Eve and MO don’t. But just because other “hardcore” MMOs don’t have crazy population doesn’t mean people from other games won’t come and play this. 81k on rust, 45k on dayz, Hunt:Showdown 23k this isn’t considering countless other games as you mentioned…Eve, Conan, Albion. Yes you can argue all day “they aren’t mmos” but to say that people wouldn’t want to come from those games over to these games is crazy. Plus the hundreds of thousands of other players from other MMOs coming to play.
3. I personally think you are looking at it from a super focused view point of not wanting to lose your shit. But you don’t lose that much, I just don’t see how people even see losing 25-50% of farmed material is even bad. Like that’s so tiny…if we’re arguing about gear drop and so on I get it but like…25% we really crying over 25%, I just think it’s funny.
1. You keep saying "slight inventory loot drop" but almost exactly after throw in some crazy number like 30-50%. When loose of 50% of your shit is start to consider "slight"? Maybe if you are aoe farming some mobs with high rate droop of low value loot it's not a big deal. But if you spend like 8-10 hours farming some fat and high damage mob with a 10% drop chance of the shit you want, and then some 2-5 dudes shows up and just kill you with no chance for you to protect yourself and steal 5 hours of you life is a BIG deal. For very large numbers of people it is a "drop this shit game'' moment.
2. Yes, i can argue "they aren't mmos'' and i right - they aren't. MMO is a very specific, and VERY time consuming genre, average gamer plays games around 8 hours.... PER WEEK. AoC time investment is 5 hours PER DAY for 35 days to rich max lvl. You really think everybody just gonna drop they action pact 1 hour in Hunt:Showdown or in any other game to farm like 1/175 of a way to endgame content? If so you are naive.
3.It's not and any way shape or form tiny. It's a very big deal to 95% of the gaming population, and big deal for like 80% of MMO players.
4 But tbh, this issue is may be not so big of a deal in AoC or be a very big issue, i just speculate. But it's definitely a not good thing, how bad it gets in AoC is mystery, but it is bad.
5. "'There should be no reason why an individual show be able to farm freely and walk away with all of their loot after farming a node and then being killed'' - i think there should be no reason why an individual has to loose his time because some dude decided to kill him. it's a game, not a job or real life, games are supposed to be fun.
But ok, lets say i wrong and lose yours loot on dead it's good thing for the game. i have a two questions to you:
1. What you think about this suggestion - maybe, loot in inventory must have a timer for like 30 minutes, as the timer run out loot cannot be dropped on death unless player is red. Such a system still allowed some PVP for loot and fun, but a lot less frustrating then possible loss of huge chunk of progress. Win, win situation for both type of players. Plus is fun for gatherers, some hide and seek action.
2. What you think about losing you EXP on dead? Because i personally think this is the worst shit in history of mankind, if you think that is good to, we are will be unable to find common ground until heat death of the universe.
just group up, jesus, its not that hard.
you also keep looking at only one side. you are only concerned about how you were farming for several horus then someone kills you, because thats what is inconvenient to you. you arent seeing the system as a whole and also all the benefits of it.
you wont get pked that often, unless you constantly try to go to a locked down area.
its not the exact system as l2. aoc has the bounty hunter system, the stat dampening system when you gain corruption (which will prevent players to go on a pk spree, since they will be easily defeated, even by a low level) and you only lose your gear when you die as a corrupted player.
yes, there will be some pk, but not as much as you would think. it will mostly be for leveling spots in some areas. most people arent going to be randomly killing people gathering or leveling. there will be pvp from cp tho for a farming spot.
also, fyi, l2 has different versions. when the game released, you could lose any item on death (from pvp or mobs), including your gear (which was extremely hard to acquire back then). it was easier to lose gear and harder to acquire, and the game didnt die, did it? plus exp loss plus death penalties (stat dampening basically).
eventually, things were changed. you could only lose items if you died red (corrupted in aoc language). then a stone was added that u could put in ur weapon so that u wouldnt lose it, even if u were red. then things were added to protect your chest armor...then jewels,=...then a different version of the game released called l2 essence where you can basically pk with no consequence. literally no consequence at all, u dont lose anything, no gear, nothing and it was a more solo oriented game...and even then, most people dont go around pking for no reason. ppl only pked if you were in their leveling spot or if you killed their low level alts.
also, in l2 you have skills such as return, party return and items such as blessed scroll of escape (bsoe), which allow you to teleport back to safety instantly and avoid dying (you would mostly use them if you were red or if you didnt want to lose exp). i havent seen any indication in AOC of such mechanic (plus steven has talked about no instant teleportation). also, karma was very easily cleansed unless you killed a million low levels.
the systems in l2 encourages pking a little bit more, because there is also more safety for pkers. im not saying you will be completely safe in aoc. expect to be killed if you are deep inside a dungeon and you are controlling the best farming spot though. you will also die when your guild is fighting over a raid boss or an area. but other than that, most people will leave you alone unless you annoy them. also consider that there will be people where you are farming, so if someone randomly pk you, they will die instantly to a mob of players making it not worth it for them to pk you in the first place.
havent watched the full video yet, but from the lil bit i watched, the creator has no idea what he is talking about. ill watch it later and comment again
Video partially don't relevant anymore, Steven left comment on the video that clears most things up. However i still have some concerns, with on dead loot drop and chances of that happening if you are decided to fight back against a PK.
Steven replied to the video on YT. Good to know he's seen the feedback and considered it. Now we'll just see how it goes.
Here's his reply:
Steven Sharif:
"Greetings brother, awesome video!
Just a few points I’d love to add.
Much of the Ashes corruption system has taken into account these concerns. In my experience with similar flagging systems, such as that of L2’s, there were very apparent flaws in implementation.
Some of the adjustments that have been made for Ashes’ approach to open world flagging system is as follows;
- Abilities with CC effects do not apply to non-combatants. The target of a cc ability must be flagged in order to suffer the CC effects. This prevents players from opening attacks that stun players during a pull for example.
- Corruption gain also takes into account level disparity between the player killed and the corrupted. The greater the disparity the higher the corruption accrued.
- PK alts would be highly ineffective, since acquiring corruption will apply dampening effects on skill dmg for PvP the higher your corruption score becomes.
- Working corruption off through exp grinding also takes significantly longer than L2, and during that time we’ve created a bounty system that reveals corrupt player locations on the map.
It is true that Ashes is a PvX game. And that means it won’t be for everyone. And that’s ok.
Testing will further refine our approach for corruption, but as a system it is core to introducing risk vs reward in Ashes, while disincentivizing griefing. "
Honestly after watching this video, as well put together as it is, all I can think is that he did no research on what becoming corrupted actually entails as far as penalties goes. Just another PVE carebear wishing for PVE servers by saying open world PvP is dooming any MMO.
I think it would be a good idea to have various rescue tools that would be created by crafters, for example - 1 use magic shield that can absorb 1 enemy hit and teleport you a few meters in the opposite direction, or rocket boots with a long recharge time (or resource needed for activation) , that allow you to escape from the pursuer once every few hours.
In my opinion, players that choose to be gatherers are crafting/exploration oriented players and the best way to make them more happy is to give them more tools they can craft and more ways they can explore. So adding more non-damaging tools to crafting system would be a great way to:
1.Make more resource and gold sinks, adding to the economy.
2.Add some flavor to certain types of crafting like Arcane Engineering (hence 1 use magic shields).
3.Help gatherers occasionally save their lives with prepared magic shield or quick use of some escape tools.
4.Expand the crafting system.
Another good way to help gatherers would be to give them some ways to save their resources via other systems, like religion for example. For religion - maybe you could pray or sacrifice portion of your resources to spirits of the forest for example (like in Shintoism) and they would help you once in a while, by hiding a portion of your resources underground near your death location and help you find them once you get back. Or expand on a mercenary system, by letting people recruit 1 or 2 followers that protect them for a while. Or expand on the player businesses system by letting players open their own resource banks in their Freeholds for example, where you could store your resources (resources should not be accessible to them ofc) during long adventures, before moving everything to town.
All in all I think the best way to approach this issue is to tie it to other systems that are present in Ashes of Creation, make gatherers engage in other systems to help them help themselves.
I think Lucky Ghost has a good idea for anti-griefing. Not to be mistaken with Pking. Straight up griefing players to ruin their experience for the sake of greed or just being toxic. If it gets to a point, perhaps there could be a manager that keeps track of player behavior and notifies staff for review once it gets to a threshold. Guild on guild wouldn't flag. But guild on lowbie might.
There could also be a mechanic that makes a dungeon more and more difficult to farm until a guild (A) essentially wipes, and they will continue to wipe until they let it rest after x amount of time. However another guild (B) could go in and get theirs until the same thing happens to them like it did to guild A.
This isn't a proposition to make a dungeon unfarmable. Just one to make players move on or face consequences. It should go with the risk and reward spirit. But it also would help other players in smaller groups get something out of it. Heck, A guild could sink more and more attention into the dungeon until it isn't feasible to have control of it anymore.
Essentially, the dungeon remembers you. And the greedier you are, the more difficult it becomes until by design players are not feasibly able to survive farming it without wiping.
I would like to see some way to reduce the amount of items dropped when you are killed based on your crafting skill. Even if it's only for items in your specific crafting tree.
Or maybe gearsets that you can wear or mods you can apply to gear that alter the dropped % of crafting items. I'd rather see it be based off your crafting skill though honestly. Not too big a fan of this one though.
Or like i saw someone mention in another post here, a crafting skill only bag that you can place items in that either doesn't drop items or has a graduated drop rate (so that as you gain skill in something it allows less and less to be dropped from it). Even locking the container to your professions would be ok with me, that way there is something that will always be dropped (gold or other crafting skill items that your not specifically trained in). Can even make it part of the tradeskill profession quests so that it's easy to lock the container to a specific skill level and tradeskill.
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akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The current measure of the drop amount is in percentage only.
The current individual`s carrying capacity is unknown
The current individual`s pack horse/mule is 10x an unknown amount
The amount of time to reach the current individual`s carrying capacity is also unknown.
There is no current knowledge of the value range any items might have on the market
There is no current knowledge of the scarcity/plentifulness of any materials
Does it take 10min to reach capacity, 20 min, 60 min, 180 min, 360 min?
How risk tolerant / averse is the player to stay out gathering for extended periods?
How far is that resource from a drop-off run to town?
How exposed is that route back to town?
How populated with potential aggressors is that route back to town
Therefore with no real measure of how impactful a loss might be, perhaps better to wait and try out the systems and provide feedback that suggest to alter an unknown and insufficiently defined system
The game should split gatherers in two categories:
1) low risk first, high risk later
2) high risk first, low risk later
First category is the one which would prefer to ship the resources to nearby nodes first but exposing themselves to the risk of shipping them with caravans or mules to their own home node / freehold later.
The second category is the one where gathers would rather go all the way back with the resources to their home node / freehold and avoiding paying a part of them to the node or caravan protection.
The game
- must make it obvious to players that there are two kind of gatherers, and to be their decision to chose which kind of gatherers they want to be in that gathering session
- must reward PvP-ers who help the first category more, but also to take into account the affiliation tree hierarchy
September 12. 2022: Being naked can also be used to bring a skilled artisan to different freeholds... Don't summon family!
I would like to see some way to reduce the amount of items dropped when you are killed based on your crafting skill. Even if it's only for items in your specific crafting tree.
Or maybe gearsets that you can wear or mods you can apply to gear that alter the dropped % of crafting items. I'd rather see it be based off your crafting skill though honestly. Not too big a fan of this one though.
Or like i saw someone mention in another post here, a crafting skill only bag that you can place items in that either doesn't drop items or has a graduated drop rate (so that as you gain skill in something it allows less and less to be dropped from it). Even locking the container to your professions would be ok with me, that way there is something that will always be dropped (gold or other crafting skill items that your not specifically trained in). Can even make it part of the tradeskill profession quests so that it's easy to lock the container to a specific skill level and tradeskill.
You have a reduced risk if you right back....why do you need any more incentive? You literally never even drop equipped gear. Adding containers that remove drops literally defeats the whole purpose. And reduced rate already exists, just fight back.
That's why we need to stay vocal on here and not let them change the system. This game clearly won't be as brutal as Eve, Ark, or Rust.
But if we can at least take some farmed material and stop players from "free farming" with no risk will actually have a proper game economy *cough New World cough*.
Here is the danger of PVE bot aspirant carebears in AoC:
- PVE bot/player farms will upgrade their node into a master node that will enslave all nodes around them, the enslaved nodes will become vassal nodes
- vassal nodes pay taxes and node xp to their master node
- vassal nodes can not declare war on their master node
- if slaves gank their masters, then the slaves will be flagged as red and then their carebear masters can kill the red slaves and steal all the slave's loot
So the AoC morals are upside down at the momment because the Corruption system, the Corruption system monopolizes violence against people who won't stay onlline 12 hours a day farmining PVE.
Monopoly over violence creates oppression, the slave nodes can't fight wars or assymetrical wars by using ganks against the master's pve farms.
PvE means: A handful of coins and a bag of boredom.
I see Ashes of creation development direction as an attempt at simulating a fantasy world which I really want to experience. I would happily play in a realm like that and would do both PVP and PVE content if the situation made sense. You have players trying to gather resources beat bosses and establish cities and then player interaction creates the factions, wars and skirmishes across the world. The main challenge I see are two inseparable things. The bosses or quest specific elites will be crushed by players and become only accessible to large guilds who will gate keep. Im not a MMO player specifically because of this next problem I have experienced in the MMO's I have tied out. The pvp players will act like sociopaths because death and murder are meaningless in a game. Towns will be overrun by players going on murder sprees, take a step out of an one area and the pvpers will make an area a kill zone blocking any travel. Bosses will constantly have people dicking around killing healers just for the lols to make a team wipe. There can be no player driven consequence to pvp because players do not live in the ashes world and instead are only there for a few hours a day. Some players will only be able to play on weekends and so the limitation of pvp and pve become even more stark for them.
A solution could be that as pvp happens a lot in a area for gathering resources, the environment starts to go after the pvp players much more than those not engaged in combat. basically the corruption system makes enemies across the world more likely to target them. There would need to be a lower yield to the resources to make exploiting it less useful but that is what testing is for.
I put about 5 minutes of thought into this, But it'd be nice if there was a way to protect a small portion of gatherables, or reduce the likelihood of something specific dropping. To be immune probably isn't the move, but on the same hand dropping all of it is probably terrible too.
I'd hate to see a meta culture of people just waiting to gank someone who farms the rare earth node just to steal it when they arent a Miner, but at the same time that's pretty exciting. -In vanilla wow if you were a herbalist and came across a black lotus spawn you instantly got adrenaline and paranoid spinning your camera around in all directions looking for a threat. In general your main competition was other Herbalists, but people would still guard it till their homie could get there and herb it.
A proximity based drop chance % could be interesting.
A reduced drop chance after certain timer intervals is another idea
A 2-3 protected from dropping bag slots could be another- but that might mean nothing valuable drops
I put about 5 minutes of thought into this, But it'd be nice if there was a way to protect a small portion of gatherables, or reduce the likelihood of something specific dropping. To be immune probably isn't the move, but on the same hand dropping all of it is probably terrible too.
I'd hate to see a meta culture of people just waiting to gank someone who farms the rare earth node just to steal it when they arent a Miner, but at the same time that's pretty exciting. -In vanilla wow if you were a herbalist and came across a black lotus spawn you instantly got adrenaline and paranoid spinning your camera around in all directions looking for a threat. In general your main competition was other Herbalists, but people would still guard it till their homie could get there and herb it.
A proximity based drop chance % could be interesting.
A reduced drop chance after certain timer intervals is another idea
A 2-3 protected from dropping bag slots could be another- but that might mean nothing valuable drops
you dont drop all your materials on death...only a portion of them .-.
Total world pvp is a core mechanic according to every dev discussion I have seen so I do not agree with a seperation of PVE servers or the like however because of bots and play time constraints that everyone has pvp must be different than most MMO's that I have dipped my toes into and heard others complain about. Make the environment target pvp players and their factions more for a couple hours after a pvp threshold is hit. Make corruption a negative thing entirely but have players drop some of the materials they would have had or the goods their caravans would have delivered. You have to make being a pvper annoying to play if you do it too much and especially if the pvp is happening a lot in a single area. I really hope you have hired people with psychology training to help tweak a reward vs punishment system for pvp.
You have a reduced risk if you right back....why do you need any more incentive? You literally never even drop equipped gear. Adding containers that remove drops literally defeats the whole purpose. And reduced rate already exists, just fight back.
incentive for what? the question this whole thread is about is answering:
"what tools or activities would gatherers like to see to help protect their hard-earned materials while adventuring in Verra?
I think in the roleplaying aspect of the game, if I have taken the time to master a set of crafting skills in a world of pvp I would have also learned how to better hide those tradeskill items as I travel in the world if for no other reason than out of the need to if I want to become a master craftsmen.
I am not advocating for it to be reduced to 0 but I don't think a 25% reduction from the default rate is an unreasonable amount (for someone at max reduction rate), or perhaps having a smaller container that I can place the rarer items in that give me a boosted rate to better increase my odds of not dropping that thing I just farmed hours for. Again, not reducing it to 0 just something more than the default value as a benefit of having mastered a skill.
You talk as if fighting back is a better choice for everyone, always. I can assure you that not everyone will be good enough that fighting back is their best option. There are going to be some people that, either due to terrible skill, gear, level or number of other reasons, will still have 0 chance at winning the fight. For those people, a better option might be to not fight back at all.
Maybe the attacker will realize that they are gonna have to eat a corruption cost in order to find out what items that person is holding/going to drop and have to decide if it's worth it. Maybe they will decide that it's not worth it and leave. If not they at least eat the corruption cost and the person being killed can hope that their death is the one that pushes that person over the limit to get flagged on the map. Or maybe they think that if the person has to eat a corruption cost they won't come back to that area once they have killed them so now they are free (at least for a time) to farm the area for resources unmolested.
Everyone is so gung-ho about pvping and no one ever stops to think about making pvper's think of the cost. It's just an afterthought. I like that the pve people have a weapon of their own to use against pvp folks that isn't just joining the pvp side of the argument. I want to make a pvp person have to keep in the back of their mind that if they don't see me swinging they need to be mindful of that. Maybe they are wacking away at me and I am jousting them like i'm fighting them (just doing a crap job of it) but if they aren't paying attention they are going to eat a corruption for killing my empty bags and crap farming gearset.
Or maybe I'm the bait for a group that's waiting in a freehold 1 minute away and I just need to keep them fighting and die just before the group arrives to kill the now corrupt flagged player and get that much more loot from them.
Comments
That could work if they also add PvP and PvE gear.
But it would be more work than setting the PvP flag opt-in, like New World did.
Of course less people will set it to on because the idea is to have risk and to try to minimize it. Having a manual easy disable is like having difficulty settings in the game: you want a legendary armor from that raid? Set the flag to easy and get it.
Such settings make no sense.
Or maybe it could if you prevent for PvE players the high quality rare tier resources and gear.
Farming iron should be safe and time consuming, collecting rare pieces of mithril should be dangerous but fast, as they deplete fast.
PvX game. No separating the PvP and PvE. Hard no to your suggestion for this particular games design.
you still can be killed while in non PVP just the rewards of mats arent as good or as many then killing someone in PVP mode.
i told you i suck at explaining
Killing and death are not important.
If gathering naked ensures keeping resources while being violated more often... I'll choose keeping the resources.
Everybody will gather naked then.
Have a great day folks!
* Create a BIG island and/or continent in the middle of the map surrounded by water that is PVP active (Something in the lines of WOW's Tol Barad, but at a greater scale with a different scope). Since Open Sea is contested territory (PVP), all goes .... might as well prepare folks to shift the mindset to a full PVP-mode. This way there can be a part in the world that is full PVP driven (Its Nodes, leaders, quests, economy, etc..). It also can provide more PVP content to what has already been envisioned. This way different society types can develop as they want and choose.
* Since this is a Gatherer's discussion. Apart from dungeons or World-Bosses, there could also be mid-high end resources in these parts. Making the economy even stronger, where PVP-Gatherers can sell local-items to the general public. (Doing Caravans from these PVP zones to other locations for an increase price since the PVE Gatherers might not engage in that area).
And yes, I am all for making PVP, PVE zones and anything in between. This will create a more stable diversity among player types and not only that, but also will unify us, where we all can contribute in the greater world design. PVPrs get what they want, PVErs get what they want, and all in between get what they want.
One of the major benefit of having something like this is that it controls gaining Corruption for players that want a "Ride or Die" experience. We all can have a place in the world of Verra.
Remember folks, dont take things so literal and/or personal... In the end, these discussions are all feedback for the moderators to relay to Intrepid on how/what the community thinks, etc.
Always envision something better for all .......
So PVE folks, get with the program, there could be PVP zones with activities that could interest you into risking some type of exposure and/or compromise.
Be well folks!
If the gatherer defends himself then he reduces his loss! This will encourage PvP and eliminate the risk of corruption for the ganker.
there Should always be a risk for gathering or transporting goods in the open world following the risk vs reward design. This is a core principle in the game and I would hate to see this being changed, and ways of mitigating these drops would be a terrible design idea that takes out this risk.
This video is basically says exactly what i trying to say. Open World PVP outside of control is never fair, if your game has the opportunity to griff people, such opportunity will be abused to the maximum possible extent.
bruh now ur confusing me T___T
so you are always in pvp mode, but you set an extra pvp flag on? 2 pvp flags, double pvp T__T
nvm im out i need food
ill watch the full video later but he said the system wont protect players, then he said steven needs to add systems around it to protect non griefers. but it turns out this isnt a copy paste of l2 system...it has other stuffs added to it /facepalm
What exactly is the "other stuff"?
Thanks for this! Very good presentation & summation of issues.
its not the exact system as l2. aoc has the bounty hunter system, the stat dampening system when you gain corruption (which will prevent players to go on a pk spree, since they will be easily defeated, even by a low level) and you only lose your gear when you die as a corrupted player.
yes, there will be some pk, but not as much as you would think. it will mostly be for leveling spots in some areas. most people arent going to be randomly killing people gathering or leveling. there will be pvp from cp tho for a farming spot.
also, fyi, l2 has different versions. when the game released, you could lose any item on death (from pvp or mobs), including your gear (which was extremely hard to acquire back then). it was easier to lose gear and harder to acquire, and the game didnt die, did it? plus exp loss plus death penalties (stat dampening basically).
eventually, things were changed. you could only lose items if you died red (corrupted in aoc language). then a stone was added that u could put in ur weapon so that u wouldnt lose it, even if u were red. then things were added to protect your chest armor...then jewels,=...then a different version of the game released called l2 essence where you can basically pk with no consequence. literally no consequence at all, u dont lose anything, no gear, nothing and it was a more solo oriented game...and even then, most people dont go around pking for no reason. ppl only pked if you were in their leveling spot or if you killed their low level alts.
also, in l2 you have skills such as return, party return and items such as blessed scroll of escape (bsoe), which allow you to teleport back to safety instantly and avoid dying (you would mostly use them if you were red or if you didnt want to lose exp). i havent seen any indication in AOC of such mechanic (plus steven has talked about no instant teleportation). also, karma was very easily cleansed unless you killed a million low levels.
the systems in l2 encourages pking a little bit more, because there is also more safety for pkers. im not saying you will be completely safe in aoc. expect to be killed if you are deep inside a dungeon and you are controlling the best farming spot though. you will also die when your guild is fighting over a raid boss or an area. but other than that, most people will leave you alone unless you annoy them. also consider that there will be people where you are farming, so if someone randomly pk you, they will die instantly to a mob of players making it not worth it for them to pk you in the first place.
havent watched the full video yet, but from the lil bit i watched, the creator has no idea what he is talking about. ill watch it later and comment again
Video partially don't relevant anymore, Steven left comment on the video that clears most things up. However i still have some concerns, with on dead loot drop and chances of that happening if you are decided to fight back against a PK.
Steven replied to the video on YT. Good to know he's seen the feedback and considered it. Now we'll just see how it goes.
Here's his reply:
Steven Sharif:
"Greetings brother, awesome video!
Just a few points I’d love to add.
Much of the Ashes corruption system has taken into account these concerns. In my experience with similar flagging systems, such as that of L2’s, there were very apparent flaws in implementation.
Some of the adjustments that have been made for Ashes’ approach to open world flagging system is as follows;
- Abilities with CC effects do not apply to non-combatants. The target of a cc ability must be flagged in order to suffer the CC effects. This prevents players from opening attacks that stun players during a pull for example.
- Corruption gain also takes into account level disparity between the player killed and the corrupted. The greater the disparity the higher the corruption accrued.
- PK alts would be highly ineffective, since acquiring corruption will apply dampening effects on skill dmg for PvP the higher your corruption score becomes.
- Working corruption off through exp grinding also takes significantly longer than L2, and during that time we’ve created a bounty system that reveals corrupt player locations on the map.
It is true that Ashes is a PvX game. And that means it won’t be for everyone. And that’s ok.
Testing will further refine our approach for corruption, but as a system it is core to introducing risk vs reward in Ashes, while disincentivizing griefing. "
Honestly after watching this video, as well put together as it is, all I can think is that he did no research on what becoming corrupted actually entails as far as penalties goes. Just another PVE carebear wishing for PVE servers by saying open world PvP is dooming any MMO.
In my opinion, players that choose to be gatherers are crafting/exploration oriented players and the best way to make them more happy is to give them more tools they can craft and more ways they can explore. So adding more non-damaging tools to crafting system would be a great way to:
1.Make more resource and gold sinks, adding to the economy.
2.Add some flavor to certain types of crafting like Arcane Engineering (hence 1 use magic shields).
3.Help gatherers occasionally save their lives with prepared magic shield or quick use of some escape tools.
4.Expand the crafting system.
Another good way to help gatherers would be to give them some ways to save their resources via other systems, like religion for example. For religion - maybe you could pray or sacrifice portion of your resources to spirits of the forest for example (like in Shintoism) and they would help you once in a while, by hiding a portion of your resources underground near your death location and help you find them once you get back. Or expand on a mercenary system, by letting people recruit 1 or 2 followers that protect them for a while. Or expand on the player businesses system by letting players open their own resource banks in their Freeholds for example, where you could store your resources (resources should not be accessible to them ofc) during long adventures, before moving everything to town.
All in all I think the best way to approach this issue is to tie it to other systems that are present in Ashes of Creation, make gatherers engage in other systems to help them help themselves.
There could also be a mechanic that makes a dungeon more and more difficult to farm until a guild (A) essentially wipes, and they will continue to wipe until they let it rest after x amount of time. However another guild (B) could go in and get theirs until the same thing happens to them like it did to guild A.
This isn't a proposition to make a dungeon unfarmable. Just one to make players move on or face consequences. It should go with the risk and reward spirit. But it also would help other players in smaller groups get something out of it. Heck, A guild could sink more and more attention into the dungeon until it isn't feasible to have control of it anymore.
Essentially, the dungeon remembers you. And the greedier you are, the more difficult it becomes until by design players are not feasibly able to survive farming it without wiping.
It could get pretty epic.
Or maybe gearsets that you can wear or mods you can apply to gear that alter the dropped % of crafting items. I'd rather see it be based off your crafting skill though honestly. Not too big a fan of this one though.
Or like i saw someone mention in another post here, a crafting skill only bag that you can place items in that either doesn't drop items or has a graduated drop rate (so that as you gain skill in something it allows less and less to be dropped from it). Even locking the container to your professions would be ok with me, that way there is something that will always be dropped (gold or other crafting skill items that your not specifically trained in). Can even make it part of the tradeskill profession quests so that it's easy to lock the container to a specific skill level and tradeskill.
Therefore with no real measure of how impactful a loss might be, perhaps better to wait and try out the systems and provide feedback that suggest to alter an unknown and insufficiently defined system
1) low risk first, high risk later
2) high risk first, low risk later
First category is the one which would prefer to ship the resources to nearby nodes first but exposing themselves to the risk of shipping them with caravans or mules to their own home node / freehold later.
The second category is the one where gathers would rather go all the way back with the resources to their home node / freehold and avoiding paying a part of them to the node or caravan protection.
The game
- must make it obvious to players that there are two kind of gatherers, and to be their decision to chose which kind of gatherers they want to be in that gathering session
- must reward PvP-ers who help the first category more, but also to take into account the affiliation tree hierarchy
You have a reduced risk if you right back....why do you need any more incentive? You literally never even drop equipped gear. Adding containers that remove drops literally defeats the whole purpose. And reduced rate already exists, just fight back.
Here is the danger of PVE bot aspirant carebears in AoC:
- PVE bot/player farms will upgrade their node into a master node that will enslave all nodes around them, the enslaved nodes will become vassal nodes
- vassal nodes pay taxes and node xp to their master node
- vassal nodes can not declare war on their master node
- if slaves gank their masters, then the slaves will be flagged as red and then their carebear masters can kill the red slaves and steal all the slave's loot
So the AoC morals are upside down at the momment because the Corruption system, the Corruption system monopolizes violence against people who won't stay onlline 12 hours a day farmining PVE.
Monopoly over violence creates oppression, the slave nodes can't fight wars or assymetrical wars by using ganks against the master's pve farms.
A solution could be that as pvp happens a lot in a area for gathering resources, the environment starts to go after the pvp players much more than those not engaged in combat. basically the corruption system makes enemies across the world more likely to target them. There would need to be a lower yield to the resources to make exploiting it less useful but that is what testing is for.
I'd hate to see a meta culture of people just waiting to gank someone who farms the rare earth node just to steal it when they arent a Miner, but at the same time that's pretty exciting. -In vanilla wow if you were a herbalist and came across a black lotus spawn you instantly got adrenaline and paranoid spinning your camera around in all directions looking for a threat. In general your main competition was other Herbalists, but people would still guard it till their homie could get there and herb it.
A proximity based drop chance % could be interesting.
A reduced drop chance after certain timer intervals is another idea
A 2-3 protected from dropping bag slots could be another- but that might mean nothing valuable drops
you dont drop all your materials on death...only a portion of them .-.
incentive for what? the question this whole thread is about is answering:
I think in the roleplaying aspect of the game, if I have taken the time to master a set of crafting skills in a world of pvp I would have also learned how to better hide those tradeskill items as I travel in the world if for no other reason than out of the need to if I want to become a master craftsmen.
I am not advocating for it to be reduced to 0 but I don't think a 25% reduction from the default rate is an unreasonable amount (for someone at max reduction rate), or perhaps having a smaller container that I can place the rarer items in that give me a boosted rate to better increase my odds of not dropping that thing I just farmed hours for. Again, not reducing it to 0 just something more than the default value as a benefit of having mastered a skill.
You talk as if fighting back is a better choice for everyone, always. I can assure you that not everyone will be good enough that fighting back is their best option. There are going to be some people that, either due to terrible skill, gear, level or number of other reasons, will still have 0 chance at winning the fight. For those people, a better option might be to not fight back at all.
Maybe the attacker will realize that they are gonna have to eat a corruption cost in order to find out what items that person is holding/going to drop and have to decide if it's worth it. Maybe they will decide that it's not worth it and leave. If not they at least eat the corruption cost and the person being killed can hope that their death is the one that pushes that person over the limit to get flagged on the map. Or maybe they think that if the person has to eat a corruption cost they won't come back to that area once they have killed them so now they are free (at least for a time) to farm the area for resources unmolested.
Everyone is so gung-ho about pvping and no one ever stops to think about making pvper's think of the cost. It's just an afterthought. I like that the pve people have a weapon of their own to use against pvp folks that isn't just joining the pvp side of the argument. I want to make a pvp person have to keep in the back of their mind that if they don't see me swinging they need to be mindful of that. Maybe they are wacking away at me and I am jousting them like i'm fighting them (just doing a crap job of it) but if they aren't paying attention they are going to eat a corruption for killing my empty bags and crap farming gearset.
Or maybe I'm the bait for a group that's waiting in a freehold 1 minute away and I just need to keep them fighting and die just before the group arrives to kill the now corrupt flagged player and get that much more loot from them.